A moral qeustion: Are the people who help manufacture the bombs

[el_gato]

that we drop on Iraqi civilians in any why responsible for those deaths?

[Goldmund]

1. If they are, then so are you and I

Since we pay taxes which pay them for what they manufacture.

[el_gato]

8. good point

And I think if we are to call ourselves citizens then we do bare some responsibility of what our government does in our name.

[Goldmund]

23. I'm always kinda turned off by these questions...

So, say we accept that premise. We bare responsibility. And now what? What do we do? Become politically active? We are. Vote? We do. Protest? We do. Anything else, like a revolution, would require a lot more people with the same mindset.

So what exactly real-world meaning does this question have?

[el_gato]

25. It's more of just about understanding

I feel we are all trying to stop this so it is not as if we are immoral.
Perhaps the nature of citizenship and what that really means is the direction the line of qeustioning should ultimately follow.

[DrWeird]

2. Depends.

If they support the war, then absolutely.

[bahrbearian]

3. How about the people who pay the taxes to build them?

[Hippo_Tron]

4. When your choice is build bombs or not eat

What exactly is your choice? There are parts of the country where jobs at the defense industries are the only ones available.

[el_gato]

5. I guess moving is too much to ask

better dead babies in Iraq than moving to another town eh?

[Hippo_Tron]

22. I guess you should try it

I don't judge the working poor because I have been fortunate enough to never have to live in their shoes. From the looks of your response it looks like you have had this fortune as well.

Telling the working poor to "just move" is like the Republicans saying that we don't need welfare because those lazy people should "just get a job".

[el_gato]

24. I've been "the working poor" almost all my life

so I know what I am talking about. And I have always tried to avoid doing things I feel are unethical. But that is not my point here.
We all share some kind of responsibility for what the government does in our collective name. Some people here don't want to admit that.

[Cleita]

6. I think it's a stretch.

We could all feel guilty for bad things that happen to others because we seem to have no control over the decisions of our leaders. There is the analogy of making swords into plowshares. We all know that peace is better than war, but if you are the smithy who makes the swords and the plowshares, I think your guilt really rests on the fact that if your leaders make you make swords instead of plowshares, you don't really have a big choice. You still have to feed your family.

I say put the blame where it belongs at the top with those who make the decisions to make bombs and use them on other nations.

[el_gato]

12. then should events like 9/11 be expected?

As a part of doing business.

[Cleita]

17. Why did 9-11 happen?

Has anybody really come up with an answer? I'm going more and more toward the MIHOP theory. The more we learn about the Bushistas the more it seems possible that they could have masterminded this themselves. Not only was Osama bin Laden one of George H. W. Bush's CIA operatives, the Bush family's long ties with the Saudis certainly gives you pause. But since we aren't really supposed to discuss this anymore in GD, this is all I have to say about it.

[el_gato]

20. I'm MIHOP as well

but I was just assuming for the sake of the discussion that it wasn't so as to deal with the moral issue.

[Warpy]

7. A stockpile of bombs can be a great deterrent

against invasion. People building those bombs may hope they are used only for that reason. Some may be psychopaths who paint what they think are clever "addresses" on them. I think it's pretty individual.

I know it's a job I can't do, no matter what I'm told about how they are to be used.

However, since I don't know the contents of anyone else's heart, I can't judge them.

[Vinca]

9. They're responsible and we're responsible.

Bombs aren't built to deliver flowers and our taxes go for bomb making. We can scream out lungs out that it isn't us, but the bottom line is . . . it is. That's why we have to get Bush and any lunatic who supports him out of office. The people want to be represented.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

10. See

The Banilty of Evil

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7278.htm

for a good answear to your question.

[imenja]

13. Abu Ghraib is a prime example of that.

Interesting article. Thanks for the link.

[el_gato]

14. I'll read that thank you.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

18. I think this may be what the colorado

professor was alluding too although I did not have time to read the article. But in short it's not as much the guy who pushes the button that launches the nuclear missile as it is all the people who brought the reality of the nuclear missile about in the first place. For without them there would be no button to push.

[el_gato]

21. yep

[Cleita]

26. The only trouble is, if you have ever tried to organize a

boycott or a strike for any reason, you will find out it's almost impossible to get a majority unless it's a hot button issue. Try to get your fellow workers in that factory to refuse to build the bombs, or quit the job, it won't happen. You will find yourself jobless all alone. This is why people are willing to put blinders on when it comes to these moral issues.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

27. And you are correct

But I have never made it a point of concern as to what other people do as that is beyond my control. I can only make decisions as to what is the right thing for me to do. So because other people may choose to work for companies that build devices that destroy people’s lives does not mean that I have too. It is my choice.

But you are right, it is so easy to say that I was only trying to feed my family or to keep my home, much the same as the German soldiers said “I was only following orders.” The world is full of delusions and rationales that we can avail ourselves too. No one ever said life was easy.

[imenja]

11. Somewhat complex question

I agree with the other posters that we all share some of the responsibility, since our taxes go to pay for death in Iraq and around the world, though clearly for many of us that is in direct opposition to our wishes.

The question of workers in defense plants: it depends on the circumstances of their employment. For workers in towns were a defense factory dominates the economy, it may be the only job they can get outside of Burger King. Would it be more moral to have their families to go hungry and homeless? The capitalists who profit from defense production bear a great deal of responsibility. I would, however, not be so quick to fault people who are simply trying to survive. The ultimate responsibility lies with our government and the American people as a whole who permit such injustice and violence to proliferate. Republican voters bear an extra degree of responsibility.

[el_gato]

15. I wholeheartedly agree with you on this

"The ultimate responsibility lies with our government and the American people as a whole who permit such injustice and violence to proliferate."

[Colorado Blue]

16. Agreed!

[tubbacheez]

19. Notice how we are all interconnected on stuff? n/t

[Devlzown]

30. That's what I see too.

Everyone in the town where they make the bombs probably benefits financially because that factory is there. Restaurant and grocery store workers feed the bomb makers and their families, shopkeepers clothe them, police protect them, etc. I wait on military people all the time and I don't turn their money down. People die every day so that I can feed and clothe myself. It's ugly and depressing, but a fact nonetheless.

[tubbacheez]

31. This dilemna is centuries old.

Even in ancient times, I would bet there were impassioned debates questioning the ethics of (say) swordsmithing.

To what extent is providing for the community protection also being an accessory to atrocity?

There are those who invent weapons, those who build them, those who buy them, and those who wield them. Who is ultimately responsible for their effects, whether for good or for ill?

Not easy questions, IMHO.

[banana republican]

28. I used to work for a defense contractor

the Company built all kinds of things: Missiles; nuclear weapons, CRUSE Missiles, launch vehicles, precision guided munitions.

I AM SO GLAD TO BE OUT OF THAT COMPANY.

I was fortunately able to retire from that company several months ago.

Most of the people that I have worked with over the years are just putting in their time until they can retire they do not believe the company is headed in the right direction.

The sad part is that until the mid '90's this company was considered the "Crown Jewel" of American enterprise.

[ultraist]

29. Yes

Many people do factor in those types of ethics when choosing a job. Some have few choices and must somewhat sacrifice their ethics to feed their families. Others simply don't care and separate their work from their values.

Top Scientists and engineers who design these weapons do have choices. Managers of the those factories, do have choices. Only the lower end laborers are more limited.

I knew a guy who was an engineer for a company that designed weapons, he was very torn and finally quit.

Fortunately, I have some choices and I would not work for such a company.

Too few of us are truly socially responsible. I know that I could be much more conscientious in many of my choices.

I don't think the tax payers that didn't support Bush is a good comparison. We must pay taxes by law, regardless of the where the money is spent although, war tax resistance is an option.

snip
"Refusing to pay taxes for war is probably as old as the first taxes levied for warfare.

Up until World War II, war tax resistance in the U.S. primarily manifested itself among members of the historic peace churches — Quakers, Mennonites, and Brethren — and usually only during times of war. There has been instances of people refusing to pay taxes for war in virtually every American war, but it was not until World War II and the establishment of a permanent, centralized U.S. military (symbolized by the building of the Pentagon) was the modern war tax resistance movement born."
http://www.warresisters.org/history_wtr.htm

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

32. Yes. And, so are all of us who pay taxes. We should all be ashamed.

And, the sooner that most people realize that we are responsible for the murder that is called war, the sooner it will end.

[ultraist]

33. Theoretically, I agree, but...

If I don't pay my taxes, I could go to jail and leave my children, motherless. I choose to pay my taxes.

I do feel obliged to donate time and money to anti-war efforts. I hope EVERYONE HERE attends one of the many anti-war rallies that will be happening around the globe on the second year anniversary of the bombing of Iraq: MARCH 20

United for Peace and Justice and the A.N.S.W.E.R. Coalition are two sites that have rallies info listed. Numerous orgs are planning rallies.

WE ALL ARE SOMEWHAT RESPONSIBLE AND HAVE A DUTY TO END USING WAR AND OTHER VIOLENT MEANS!

No human exists in a vacuum. It's up to us to take responsibility and work towards a better society. Big daddy is not going to do it for us.