What are the arguments for giving licenses to illegal immigrants?

[hollywood926]

I think it's a hell of a way to keep track of them - as well as ensuring that they sort of know how to drive here. They are driving, anyway!

What are some other arguments in favor of this issue?

[merwin]

1. They can drive to their illegal job! n/t

[Dookus]

2. Here are some:

They're already here, they're already driving. Let's make sure they can pass the test.

Let's make sure they can get insurance (which you can't do without a license).

[wgellis]

3. Guest Worker Program

I happen to like the notion of a Guest Worker Program. Except for Bush, the right hates it. I see no reason why well-meaning skilled labor from a neighboring country shouldn't be given regulated access.

[Cronus Protagonist]

4. They can then get insurance, which save YOU money

When in an accident. Additionally, they will be able to buy better cars because at the moment their car is subject to police confiscation, so right now, a lot of people buy and drive the cheapest polluting gas guzzling oil burning crap they can find so that when its confiscated, they can afford to let it go and buy another piece of uninsured crap to drive.

Oh, and it will help the economy too (car sales, insurance purchases, smog fees, registration fees, license fees), not to mention how much safer it will be for their children and yours to be driving better and properly insured cars.

I could go on and on.



http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13
Buttons for brainy people - educate your local freepers today!

[ChairOne]

15. You think that fear of confiscation is the only thing......

... holding back America's blueberry pickers from buying Hummers? Kewl.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[thoughtanarchist]

5. The argument in favor

is to maintain a supply of cheap illegal labor inside the US.

If only it were that easy for Americans to just drift up to Canada

[Dookus]

9. Is it possible

that there are other reasons? Perhaps some of us recognize the reality that these workers are here, they're already driving, and we're all better off if we can make it safer for them.

[thoughtanarchist]

11. there must be more about this issue

that I don't understand. If I became an illegal resident of another country, and I was driving without a license and I got caught, I would honestly expect to be deported. Isn't that what all the other industrialized nations do? Not as a repressive measure, just procedural. I'll admit I'm being simplistic, but what makes our position so unique that we should discard our immigration laws?

I'm not saying seal the borders. Just that it seems silly to grant drivers licenses to folks we know are here illegally. I'd much rather see more legal, known, documented immigrants with at the very least a guaranteed minimum wage helping to pay into our social security system.

[Dookus]

12. there is more about it...

mainly the fact that we refuse to deal with the reality of the situation in any sort of adult manner.

I live in California. Deporting all undocumented aliens is both unfeasible and undesirable. Even if we COULD do it, we wouldn't. We rely on them far too much.

In the absence of a real guest-worker program or amnesty that will allow them to stay here legally, I think the humane thing to do is to recognize their existence and contribution and at least let them drive legally.

[thoughtanarchist]

44. That seems to be "settling" for inequity

A responsible amnesty program would at least allow these folks protection under our labor laws and a genuine stake in our society. Anything less is just window dressing that allows employers to continue to exploit the cheap labor.

[Dookus]

45. I suppose it is....

can you think of any political issue that doesn't involve "settling"?

[thoughtanarchist]

51. question is, how much ground

are you willing to give?

is it worth a potential decrease in auto accidents to further legitimize the exploitation of illegal labor? A large mobile labor pool willing to work for less than minimum wage does not sound like a viable long term solution...

Some of the very reasons for our high standard of living include tax funded programs and fair wage. If illegal immigrants want to enjoy the higher standard of living, they should be participating in those aspects of our society that allows that standard to be maintained. ie. earning fair wages and paying taxes on them.

I think without something more, drivers licenses alone would further increase the wealth gap over the long term. In my opinion, Dems have already made more than enough concessions to that effect. I'm encouraged by what looks like a growing trend by Dems (Boxer, Conyers, Kerry, Kennedy, etc) to stop settling for the rind while giving up the fruit in the spirit of cooperation.

[Dookus]

52. look

I find the constant refrain of "exploitation of illegal labor" to be tiresome.

These people are here by their own choice because the opportunities are greater than in their homeland. It's not an evil capitalist conspiracy to enslave them.

That being said, are you arguing that we should withhold drivers licenses because it's not a complete solution to the problem? I think that's short-sighted and childish.

[thoughtanarchist]

54. The phrase "exploitation of illegal labor" tiresome?

You're getting personal. Take a breath.

you say "It's not an evil capitalist conspiracy to enslave them."

It has been a long hard fight to establish the standards of fair labor we enjoy today. Progressives have died for the cause. I fail to see how protecting those standards is short sighted or childish. I can easily envision, however, an increase in the use of laborers who will gratefully drive far and wide to work for less than minimum wage, lowering the value of the labor force.


I'm NOT arguing that we should withhold drivers licenses because it's not a complete solution to the problem. I'm arguing that we should withhold because it's detrimental to our society UNLESS these peoples employment is legitimized and properly regulated. That is far from a complete solution but it adds the element of fairness and increases opportunity.

Now don't get angry when I turn your question around: are you saying that you care enough to want illegals to drive but not enough to guarantee them minimum wage?

[sweetheart]

6. disenfranchising people only creates problems

Across the board, our society is institutionally stupid creating its
own nightmares by stigmatizing various groups and denying them civil
rights, be it immigrants, women, homosexuals, retired people, muslims,
atheists, veterans, ex-prisoners, poor people...and the list goes on..
ALL of the problems are self-created by evil white men who've usurped
power... ain't that just obvious... or perhaps the view is obscured
by the fog.

[thoughtanarchist]

7. I know you mean well

but immigration laws have little directly to do with stigmatism and repression. Again, Canada is a very socially open society but they inforce their immigration laws. There's no reason we cannot do the same.

[sweetheart]

Yes, we can do the same

Allowing all immigrants equal status under the law will only create
happy and successful people who can better contribute and develop in
our society. ALL laws that make immigrants lesser equals, are silly
as they merely reinforce a class system, forcing people underground
as truth be told, people will exercise their natural rights whether
some bunch of lawmakers gives them franchise or not.

An immigrant who smokes cannabis will continue to smoke cannabis, and
no bunch of puritains is going to "fix" them, nor will they fix an
immigrant who is not a chiristian, nor one who does not have a driving
license. All these things are just facts for the immigrant who is
flayed apart by a system of laws based on an even sadder principal.
That a natural born person has been so cheated in their rights, that
they've gotta be one up on a forigin born one, to feel better about
what they put up with.

[AP]

14. Anyone who works for a living who thinks they're better off when some

other person who works for a living can be exploited is delusional.

If you're an employer who doesn't rely on a wealthy middle class to get wealthy, I can sort of understand why you'd look the other way when a working person is being exploited. But that's probably about 4% of the population. Everyone else is mad to not care about or to actively encourage exploitation.

We're all better off when we're all better off.

[EVDebs]

8. One illegal I knew about had 3 d.u.i.

[cleofus1]

10. for over a hundred years

America has actively worked to destabilize Mexico and all of Latin America. We have invaded them...assasinated their leaders...supported multinational corporations as they raped the land and exploited the people...cia death squads...etc...etc...etc...
And when the people try to come over here to a land that was taken from their ancestors by force, some assholes start spouting shit about "The Law" and "what's fair"...
In the end perhaps it would work itself out, except I think the US is still...to this day...still actively working to destabilize Mexico and Latin america...and still people begrudge them their efforts to live a normal life.

[AP]

13. They'll have to take a drivers test and get insurance and pay a state fee.

It contributes to the tax base, ensures that the roads are safer, and ensures that the cost of driving is lower for everyone (since you won't have to eat the cost of an accident with an uninsured driver).

Furthermore, the more you incorporate people into legitimate society, the better off society is generally.

Let the INS and the Federales do their job tracking down illegal immigrants. But let the state do its job of raising revenue, making the roads safer, and making life simpler for its citizens who are just trying to create social wealth.

[Dookus]

16. Very well put, AP

I don't understand why this issue raises such emotions.

[AP]

17. Thanks.

Priorities and values.

I just don't see how any moral value trumps the idea that we don't exist as a society to make life miserable for our neighbors and ourselves.

What principle is so important that you'd prefer to have a poorer state, unsafe roads, and expensive damage to your property or your person rather than make life a little less miserable for people?

[DrGonzoLives]

39. Well put

I would say that anyone driving within the United States MUST have a valid state driver's license. Hell, they only cost, what, $10-$20?

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dookus]

19. make due?

your sentiments make me wonder if you haven't made a wrong turn somewhere.

Are you proposing that any undocumented immigrant applying for a driver's license be arrested at gunpoint?

Enjoy your stay here, however long it may last.

edit to add your name: Ilibs. I always forget to check back for the final dispensation.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dookus]

21. And you don't see

a difference between a murderer and the guy who washes the dishes at your favorite restaurant? The guy who's working hard and sending two thirds of his pay back home to his family and trying to live the North American dream?

Again, enjoy your stay.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dookus]

24. Who is talking about

people getting high in a government building lobby? We're talking about people going to the DMV.

Or do you presume all Mexicans are uncontrollable stoners?

OK.. on edit..
I have no idea what you're saying.


can you explain your feelings about undocumented aliens getting drivers' licenses without bringing up murder, drug use or any other crime?

[AP]

23. States generally don't enforce the laws of other jurisdictions unless they

are asked to do so and there's a law allowing it.

For example, it's not the State of California's business to to check with any other state, federal and national government every time they type that person's name into a computer.

If you register your child at an elementary school, that school doesn't have to check your name agains databases of potential criminals, and they don't have to check that your name exists in a database.

If the state of california decides that keeping the roads safe and peopel wealthy and happy trumps any other value, so be it. The Federales can ask them to enforce federal law in a state building, but I have a feeling there will be jurisdictional problems.

[eg101]

25. How about letting them vote?

You have millions of people working for low wages in this country, but they are not allowed to vote? Sounds like some form of slavery to me.

Both the Democrats and GOP are colluding with the business lobbies to flood the labor market with cheap labor, while at the same time keeping them from voting. THat's one of the ways that the Dems and the GOP and corporations keep America solidly rightwing--keep the poorest of the poor from voting!

[Dookus]

26. No

voting rights should be maintained for citizens. That's only reasonable. I don't know of any other country that lets foreigners vote in their elections. It would be silly to allow it.

You think millions of people working for low wages is equivalent to slavery? Then you have a very poor understanding of either history or vocabulary.

I don't think the parties are conspiring to "flood the market with cheap labor". I think individuals are trying to make a better life for themselves, and often taking great risk to do so, by coming to the US. They are good, decent people who are working hard and doing what they do for good, valid, moral reasons. They're trying to improve their lives and the lives of their children.

The idea that undocumented aliens should be allowed to vote is just laughable. But they should be allowed to drive. :P

[eg101]

28. ever heard of taxation without representation?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

31. yeah...that is just really out there...

did you ever hear of legally entering a country...abiding by it's laws...going through the process to obtain citizenship...and THEN being allowed to vote? Why should we grant people who are breaking the law JUST BY BEING here the right to vote? I am not saying we should kick them all out, but giving them the right to vote is just nuts... :crazy:

theProdigal

[eg101]

34. if our "leaders" wanted to stop illegal immigration, we could do it NOW

All it takes is a computer database of SSNs and addresses and work history. Whenever ANYONE works, their employer has to check their SSN first. If it does not check out or if there is an work history discr

In fact, a pilot program of this database was enacted and was very successful at detecting illegals. But it was shut down. Gee, I wonder why.

BTW, both the GOP AND the Democratic leaders have referred to working illegals as citizens.

As I noted above, if they want, they could end illegal immigration, simply by using the database and giving jail sentences for hiring illegals. But do not do that. Gee, I wonder why....

[lectrobyte]

36. You make a good point, but...

> Whenever ANYONE works, their employer has to check their SSN first.

Unless the employers are paying them cash under the table, or it's farm work, or construction work, where you typically go round out the crew from the group of guys down on the corner and pay them cash at the end of the day. The dirty secret of it is that for a lot of states, the economy would implode if all the "illegals" were removed from the workforce.

[eg101]

37. No they do NOT check the SSN

They LOOK at the card. And fake cards are perfect. The govt DELIBERATELY makes the cards easy to fake.
You might wanna read up on this first...

[Disturbed]

32. Having a Driver's License...

also requires that a person will serve on a jury doesn't it?

[DrGonzoLives]

40. Only registered voters

serve on juries, that's where they get the names from.

[Dookus]

46. not true

jury lists are compiled from a variety of sources. Not registering to vote does NOT mean you won't be called to serve on a jury.

[Dookus]

48. Yes

it's a motto, not a constitutional mandate.

I paid taxes starting at 16 - I couldn't vote. Convicted felons pay taxes, but can't vote in many states. Citizens of Washington DC don't have representation in the Senate (and only non-voting representation in the House). Foreign citizens working here pay taxes, but don't vote. There's no rule that paying taxes automatically earns a vote.

[eg101]

49. then there SHOULD be a rule. I say so, and so do many Americans

eom

[WoodrowFan]

30. FYI

in the 19th Century it was not uncommon for communities to let immigrants vote if they stated that they intended to become citizens. (The legal/illegal thing didn't really exist then so that wasn't an issue).


On edit: I agree with you, just thought this was an interesting historical detail.

[aneerkoinos]

35. Perhaps you've heard of EU

>>>I don't know of any other country that lets foreigners vote in their elections. It would be silly to allow it.<<<

At local and EU-elections elections we vote at the place we live, any EU country. Democracy is local and we don't think there's anything silly about that.

Only in national elections people vote according to their nationality.

And unlike you NAFTA people, here in EU people are almost equal to capital, they are free to move and work where they want inside the free trade area.

The first question you should be asking why capital is allowed to move more freely than humans and thus has more rights than us humans, instead of holding up laws and borders that create inequality and injustise.

[Bridget Burke]

29. Well, if they start driving legally...

And paying auto taxes, buying insurance, looking at better cars...

Next thing you know, they'll be asking for more money on the job. Learning better English. Looking into citizenship...

[WLKjr]

33. They should have to pass a drivers test and be insured.

I am kind of torn on this issue, part of me says, "Well, if they can read english and know what the signs say, and can abide by the traffic laws and pass drivers tests on a regular basis (like every 6 months or you license is revoked, maybe wouldn't be such a bad thing for citizens either :shrug:) and the other part says, hell no, this can cause lots of problems.

[theboss]

38. If we are tracking them, why are they still here?

I'm in favor of large-scale, open immigration, but I want it to be legal.

[newportdadde]

42. To me the idea of handing out licenses to illegal immigrants just seems st

I mean I get the good about it, the insurance for one, passing the test for another. Of course if you were already driving illegally and couldn't afford the insurance or pass the test you wouldn't bother anyways.

It just seems strange.. your here illegally and yet you have a valid license and pay property taxes on the vechile etc. All while your NOT suppose to be in the country just doesn't seem really logical. The logical course of action if this kind of thing is raising our insurance rates etc is to deport the illegals and then enforce immigration better.

An the other hand if an illegal immigrant can figure his/her way through a DMV or as I like to call it Hell with all the old forms, special forms, tax forms etc maybe they do deserve it.

[AP]

43. States don't care about national citizenship. There are lots of things

states do that don't require them to cross-check with the federal government (or any government). If you're a citizen of FRANCE you should be able to walk in the door of the DMV and get a driver's license without having to answer questions about what your legal status is.

I think the way this is phrased is all wrong.

Think of it this way: Do you want the DMV to have to check people's status with the federal government when someone tries to get a driver's license? Do you want your state agencies to be deputized by the federal government (presuming that's even legal).

I say no. The DMV has a very narrow task: raise revenue and keep the roads safe, and being deputized by the federal gov't would actually make it harder for the DMV to do that job, which is why you wouldn't want the DMV to have to do the Fed's job.

There's also a certain degree of realism that's required. Not getting a driver's license doens't mean these people will leave. It means they'll use the roads with knowing the rules, without insurance, and without paying the proper fees and taxes. It also means they'll be easier to exploit by employers. All of that is very expensive for society. I really don't think any of the values one has that might make him or her opposed to this are really worth more than safe roads and saving money and making life easier for your fellow citizens.

[HamdenRice]

53. I agree, and a lot of DUers don't understand federalism

First of all, there is no connection between citizenship and driving. I hope that everyone after a moment's reflection would concede that all legal immigrants are entitled to drivers licenses. (A temporary drivers license is only for travelers who will be here less than one year.) There are millions of legal immigrants, as well as foreign students, and foreign employees of foreign companies on assignment here who need to drive, just as there are in France.

Once people can grasp that foreigners are entitled to drivers licenses, then the only question is, do you want the DMV trying to figure out who is a legal immigrant and who is an illegal alien? Obviously that is not what they are good at; that's the job of the INS. And having the state DMVs cross check with the INS adds nothing to the enforcement efforts of the INS, and in fact would consume prodigious amounts of resources for absolutely no reason.

[hunter]

47. Getting a driver's license is a primitive right of passage to some people.

They act as if getting a driver's license is their tribe's acceptence of them as an adult. I otherwise can't explain their bizarre resistance to licensing "illegal aliens."

I only carry my driver's license when I'm driving. Otherwise it is simply a nuisance, and a further opportunity for our very imperfect government to violate my civil rights.

But everyone who drives should have a driver's license. Their immigration status should be utterly irrelevent.

I have been in an accident caused by an "illegal alien," and it was a royal pain in the butt for everyone. If the guy had simply had a driver's license it would have been much easier to deal with, even if he'd been uninsured.

Instead it turned into a circus between the police, the insurance companies, and all the people in the accident. In the end the police simply dropped it, because they were spending too much time on a stupid little four-party "fender-bender."

Since I had only a few hundred dollars damage over my own insurance deductable, I dropped it too -- any so-called "justice" be damned. If the police didn't want to do anything about it, and the insurance companies didn't want to do anything about it, what was I supposed to do? Go to the guy's house and shake him down?

"My name is Inigo Montoya. You bent my fender! Prepare to die...

Shit. I'm certain the guy is still out there driving without a license. So what? I don't give a damn anymore. Maybe he'll crash into someone who thinks illegal aliens shouldn't have licenses. That would be justice!

[Cleita]

50. When I have traveled in foreign countries and wanted to drive,

I often had to apply for a temporary driver's license. I don't understand why we don't do that here? It would solve a lot of problems and certainly has nothing to do with immigration. It's really only about driving.