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"Cheerleaders make human pyramids. Is *that* torture?"

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NightTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 05:44 PM
Original message
"Cheerleaders make human pyramids. Is *that* torture?"
Well, Mr. Womack, when cheerleaders make human pyramids, they do it:

1) of their own free will;

2) fully clothed; and

3) not covered in their own feces.

If Guy Womack were my lawyer, I'd fire his incompetent ass immediately!
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
1. Hmm, if one forced naked Cheerleaders to make a human pyramid
....while you might have a popular, albeit short-lived, website, you'd probably also end up in jail (if you forced them to do it).
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gollygee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
2. All-time stupid quote
that will go down in history.

As if that had any similarities with cheerleaders.
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dave123williams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
3. It's torture to watch, though. The cheerleaders, I mean.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. :^P Pttttthhhhppppppbbbbb! From a former cheerleader, now coach
Me I can't get enough of cheerleading. *g*

http://whatisprox.com/vidclips.asp

----------------------------------------------------------
Save our country one town, county, and state at a time!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/electionreform.htm#...
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dave123williams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #4
22. Please...the forced bubbly attitude, the perkiness?

It's like enduring gum-surgery. Lots of effort expended in the furtherance of nothing...oh, sorry; in the furtherance of human pyramids and synchronized bouncing around.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #22
31. Hey, some of us like the physical challenge of sports and want
to smile while pursuing it. *g*
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dave123williams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Well, try an actual sport then.

There's many to choose from; cheerleading is *not* a sport.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. You probably don't think gymnastics, golf, or ice skating are sports
Some folks can't envision a physical activity as a sport unless there are opposing teams occupying a playing field at the same time, or some sort of ball is involved.

Now me, I think a sport is a physical activity that is difficult to do, wherein people compete against each other for the best ranking. Like this: http://whatisprox.com/vidclips.asp
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dave123williams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. No, ice dancing isn't a sport, either.
Edited on Wed Jan-12-05 12:36 PM by dave123williams
Nor is the ballet. Best ranking? Please...how is it a sport if you're competing for a totally subjective assesment?

Sports are where people actually compete with each other for the fastest time, the highest number of scores and so on. Actual sports have a quantitative victor. Who lifted the most weight for their class? Who ran the fastest for each distance? Who scored the most points in the time allotted?

Not...who had the most perfect faked congeniality? Not...who was the most perky and positive. Not...who was the most synched and psyched.

Golf...is not a sport because it's a simple a cobination of activities...George Carlin has a great bit on this...'golf is the combination of whacking a ball, and taking a walk. Hockey, by this standard, isn't a sport either as it's the combination of ice skating and beating the shit out of people.'

:)

I think that any 'sport' wherein the object is to get the highest mark from a judge, has to be suspect. I watched gymnastics on the Olymics this year; it seemed the whole exercise was to make no mistakes. How is that a sport? Sure it's an athletic enterprise, but a competitive sport? I don't think so.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Well there go football and baseball from the realm of sports
Darn those umpires and line judges with their subjective opinions! *lol* ;)
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dave123williams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. You should work on your reading comprehension skills a bit...
I said 'where the object of the exercise is to get the highest mark from a judge' is the hallmark of something that's not a sport.

The object of baseball isn't to get high marks from a judge, it's to score the most points in nine innings.

The object of football isn't to get high marks from a judge, it's to score the most points in 60 minutes.

QED.

I'm sorry; Cheerleading is not a sport.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. You can think that all you want. Doesn't change the fact that Title IX
recognized it as such. :)

Frankly I fail to see why it's the points that make the difference. I think it's the skill level and the difficulty of the activity that should be the factors.

But hey, that's just me. :)

--------------------------------------
Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com /
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prayin4rain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #22
42. This post reminds me of the new Gwen Stefani song that goes
"'cause I ain't no holler back girl, I ain't no holler back girl" ...Don't know why that popped in my mind, or why I felt the need to post it when it did. I am done now.
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cmd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #4
38. I salute you, GreenPartyVoter
Cheerleading is just as much a sport as foot,base,basketball.
It involves an amazing amount of strengh and agility not to mention the discipline of working with a team. I'm not, nor was I ever, a cheerleader. I just recognize the work that goes into being a good one.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. Thanks. :^) Me, I was actually NOT that good at it. Really did not
Edited on Wed Jan-12-05 01:02 PM by GreenPartyVoter
have the physical skills like they use in it these days. Which is part of the reason why I defend it as a sport. I know how freakin hard it is to jump up on top of someone's hands and then stretch myself out into some sort of Yoga stance. *lol*

I love being a coach now. Aside from all the silliness that is involved with spending time with middle schoolers, I love my girls and am so glad they have gotten involved in cheering, as well as the many other sports they do, like soccer and basketball. (We're a tiny school. Each sport team is pretty much up of the same people. :) )

http://geocities.com/aescougarcheer/
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
5. 4) not in fear of their lives if they refuse
5) not sexually assaulted before/during/after
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
6. Did any rightwing pundits remark on that quote? (nt)
nt
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Ravenseye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #6
29. How Insane is the Right Wing
When they defend torture.

When did torturing people, no matter the whens and whyfores, become ok?

Didn't we use to be the country who said we were better than the Soviet Union because we didn't torture people, hold them without trial, or put them in camps. I remember stuff like that. Sure the U.S. Did some nasty things in the past, but the general public line of belief was 'We aren't bad, we don't do bad things, and don't need to in order to win.'

Now they're saying 'Yeah but Torture is ok, holding people without trial is ok...'

*sigh*
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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
7. if this guy can't tell the difference, then his opinion of....
Edited on Tue Jan-11-05 06:03 PM by GloriaSmith
highschool and college age woman (generally the type of person you think of when you think of cheerleaders) is HIGHLY disturbing. To thread these two completely different situations together in order to excuse torture is mental.
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Taxloss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
8. They're not in fear of their lives, either. n/t
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NightTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Hey, I'm sorry about last night, when I snapped at you in another thread.
I mistakenly thought your remark was directed at me, rather than at the topic at hand. I was out of line when I called you "pompous and self-important," and I apolgoize for it.
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Taxloss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Tch, it happens.
Thanks for saying sorry, but it's really not necessary.

Although I did cry all night ... :)
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Kablooie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
9. and YES! It IS torture!
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Ready4Change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
11. Ask any parent of a cheerleader what they think.
What would they think of their daughter (or son) being forced to strip nude then make a human pyramid with plastic bags over their heads while someone else takes pictures.

Time to subpoena Guy Womacks hard drives and internet surfing habits, if he thinks this is "normal."
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AmandaRuth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
12. Mr Womack and the whole defense team
should strip naked, roll around in their own poop and make a human pyramid prime time on Oreallys show, and prove to the nation that it just was no big deal.
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spooked Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
13. Someone help me see the similarities here...






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ignatius 2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 06:47 PM
Response to Original message
15. The sad thing is, when torture is trivialized as these guys are trying
to do, it desensitizes Joe Public.

At work today one jackass said to another, look..they made a prisoner eat pork and called that torture. Jackass #2 said, that's funny.

I said was that before or after they stuck a lit cigarette in his ear.

They both shut the hell up.
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
16. The new values
Perfectly acceptable:


An outrageous and intolerable affront to everything we stand for:
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Kablooie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
17. This lawyer is an utter ass.
And Graner is toast.

With this idiotic defense there's no chance of leniency.
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SunDrop23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #17
45. Graner is an utter JAGOFF
Edited on Wed Jan-12-05 01:50 PM by SunDrop23
Piece of shit bully. Have you seen the pictures of this dickwad leaving the court room? He thinks this shit is funny.




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Carson Donating Member (560 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
18. I heard the attorney's statements on radio and he said he used the analogy
Edited on Tue Jan-11-05 09:35 PM by Carson
to illustrate that the pyramid wasn't physically painful. Of course, that's where the similarities end.

He also went on to say the prisoners were naked because the guards had just quelled a riot and the prisoners were being "shaken down". The pyramid was, in this guy's speech, used to contain them without the use of restraints. If one guy moves suddenly, the rest would fall, making it difficult for the guards to be attacked. According to him, it's a common method of containment when dealing with more than a few prisoners.

Anyone else heard of this method?


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NightTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. And how does that explain the photos of Graner and his true love...
...Lynndie England standing behind the human pyramid, smiling and giving the "thumbs up" sign? Was that also part of a method to contain the prisoners without restraint?

I believe Attorney Womack's claim is called "damage control."
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Carson Donating Member (560 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #19
44. I agree. The attorney said they perhaps they were happy and/or proud
Edited on Wed Jan-12-05 01:51 PM by Carson
that the riot was quelled. The taking of "trophy photos" is juvenile and criminal, however I don't think those particular photos show "torture."

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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
20. You know, the guy has a web site
and was kind enough to give us his email address. Perhaps we should express our opinion of his slimey tactics?

www.guywomack.com

guy.womack@usa.net

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

The taste of Republican butt does not improve with age.

"The NeoCons can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They do not feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And they absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead.
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Peak_Oil Donating Member (666 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 10:57 PM
Response to Original message
21. Depends.... are they hot? n/t
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
23. Hey, My Niece Broke An Ankle From It
So, maybe it is torture! I'm kidding of course. She went up on the pile of her own volition. She wants to be a HS cheerleader. She is. She assumed the risk. She got hurt. She's now better. She's a cheerleader again.

Not exactly the definition of torture, is it?
The Professor
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #23
35. Kudos to her for sticking with it. :^)
~Coach Jen
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Turley Donating Member (585 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
24. One of the sickest things I've ever heard said
this is rock bottom
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
25. He's got nothing.
That's why the ridiculous arguments.

His guy tortured people. ON FILM.

Still... maybe he should spend his time arguing mercy for the guy instead.
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
26. I might drop by Mackie Arena after work...
...and ask the young ladies if they'd mind terribly much nuding up and getting in a pyramid?
Hey, Guy Womack says it's no big thing....

I thought "My Cousin Vinnie" was fiction?
"Yer onner, dees yoots were jis' havin' a leel FUN!"
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. ?
Yoots?
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. Yoots...YOOTS!
Wassamattawitchu?
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
30. 'Well, what we're comparing is not whether they're naked'(on CNN Monday)
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0501/10/pzn.01.h...

Joining me now from Texas is Charles Graner's attorney, Guy Womack, who we saw in Susan's report.

Welcome back, Mr. Womack.

I wanted to start tonight with this picture. It is the picture that you no doubt know quite well of the naked detainees piled on a pyramid with your client smiling and giving the thumbs up sign.

And you said, "Don't cheerleaders all over America form pyramids six to eight times a year? Is that torture?"

How do you compare this to cheerleading?

WOMACK: Well, what we're comparing is not whether they're naked, whether they're wearing sand bags on their heads. I'm sure the cheerleaders don't do that. But, rather, the physical act of being piled up in a pyramid. It's a gymnastic formation. Only the body weight of the individual persons are on any other person. It doesn't hurt them.

The testimony of the witness that testified about that today was that there was no crying. They were merely piled up. And we're having an expert witness testify that that is a valid control measure. It's a tactic that you would use when you were outnumbered by possible assailants.

These were violent individuals who had just led a riot in the prison yard. They were piled up in a pyramid so that, if one tried to move, the others would fall down, and it would give the MPs at least a few seconds to react to the movement.

ZAHN: So you didn't have any problems with someone ordering the prisoners to do just that?

WOMACK: To pile up in a pyramid? Of course not.

ZAHN: Let's... WOMACK: It was much better than strapping them by the neck or other techniques that could have been used. They were merely piled up in a pyramid.

Now what is offensive to all of us is that they were naked. But they were naked because they were just being processed. They had just come from a riot outside the prison wall. They were being in process. They had to be stripped.

They were wearing sand bags on their heads because that's what you do with enemy prisoners so that they cannot see that they outnumber you, that they cannot see exactly where friendly forces are standing, they can't see what avenues of egress they could use for escape. It's very important that you isolate them visually so that they can't escape or fight.

ZAHN: The accusation is that the soldiers should have been aware of the fact that nudity is extremely an humiliating thing to Muslim men.

But I want to move on to another photo today that you also have described, and this is the one of Private Lynndie England leading a prison on a leash, and you have said, "A tether is a valid tool. You're probably been at a mall or airport and seen children on tethers. They're not being abused."

These detainees were in a prison. Why did you need a tether for them?

WOMACK: Well, again, we're going to have more testimony on that. We had testimony today about that. A tether is a device that you use when you need to extract a prisoner from a cell.

If you heard the testimony in court today, you would have learned that that particular prisoner was not dragged out of the cell. He crawled out of the cell while a female was holding the tether. It's believed that the fact that a female was holding the tether averted the violence. The fact that the man was humiliated to be naked in front of an American woman perhaps kept him from fighting.

It's well known psychologically that, in this country, prisoners who are stripped of their clothing become more complacent, they're less likely to fight or try to run because they have no clothes.

ZAHN: I need a brief answer to my final question. How damaging was it to your client today that you had two soldiers accusing your client of beating up prisoners, in one case knocking a man out cold?

WOMACK: Wasn't damaging. That private who testified to that, Frederick, told the court that he'd hit a man in the chest so hard that he said he caused cardiac arrest.

That same witness said that he set up all of the sex scenes, masturbations, the simulated fellatio. That same witness did all of those things himself. He is the one who said that he had received orders from military intelligence and civilian contract intelligence, had passed the orders to Specialist Graner and others. He had also passed along the praise for the good job they were doing and the effect it was having in helping in these interrogations.

ZAHN: So you don't think it hurts your client at all? Well, it will be interesting to...

WOMACK: No.

ZAHN: ... watch you go through this process. Guy Womack, thanks for your time tonight.

WOMACK: You're welcome. Thank you.
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trogdor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
33. I heard the defendant hired him from a classified ad.
In the Stars and Stripes. He's a retired Marine JAG attorney.
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
40. Exactly....
That was the stupidest statement that I've ever heard. EVER!
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Lisa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 07:55 PM
Response to Original message
46. it is if George W. Bush is heading the squad!
remember when defended the branding of new fraternity pledges with a red-hot coathanger?


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