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I hope the Republicans do try and bring back the draft

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WI_DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 08:50 AM
Original message
I hope the Republicans do try and bring back the draft
and I hope they are unsuccessful. But I think the only way this country is ever going to wake up is if there is a possibility of our own child being shipped off to fight an immoral war rather than "somebody else's child." Too many people are complacent today and the body politic needs to be woke up. The 60's and early 70's saw a country which seemed to truly care about civil rights and about peace. What has happened to that spirit?
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Dems Will Win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 08:52 AM
Response to Original message
1. They will not be unsuccessful and there will be a draft by May.
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MadAsHellNewYorker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. I have been saying June...n/t
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dr.strangelove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. I think and hope you are wrong.
Karl Rove would lose any chance of keeping the Senate and probable lose the House if the repubs pushed a draft through. It would give to big an issue to the Dems. I hope they do push through the draft. We would take back both houses, reverse the draft and win the White House in 2008. A draft would be the biggest political blunder in history.
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FloridaPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. It's two years til the next election. That's too long for Americans to
remember anything. They get their draft. Along comes 2006. The war president rides his big horse around the country complaining about all those bad people killing our troops, and the computerized voting machines give the repubs the entire senate.

These people are evil. They are in control and democracy is dead. Any time the American public starts waking up, another 9-11 will happen to shut their little brains down.
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #7
19. I don't think the repukes are worried about elections anymore. n/t
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MadAsHellNewYorker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #19
24. well said!
i think its clear we will never have another free election while the repukes are in power. period. end of story.
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Inland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #1
12. Why May? Bush can go for years.
I think Bush can go for years living off the carcass of the volunteer military built by previous administrations.

Stop losses, plugging holes with NG and reserve, and living off the somewhat myopic patriotism of those who join the regular is going to keep us going for a long time.

After Bush, the deluge. Future presidents won't be able to squeeze any more juice, volunteers will become scarce, and THEY will have to reintroduce the draft just to maintain defense.

Think of Bush deficits in the money area. The fact is that when one thinks that Bush can't do something, it is "can't" only in the sense that a patriotic American, or anyone with a fear of God, wouldn't dare do it. Bush has the advantage of surprise, in that nobody can believe how craven and stupid and selfish he is until it is too late.
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American Tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #1
18. On what basis do you say this?
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #1
26. Why that specific date?
:shrug:
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tomkertes Donating Member (62 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #1
28. one of the "unspoken" objectives of the occupation may be to get draft
again. While I doubt that there is a desire to have drafted soldiers in combat or as a replacement to the mercenary forces of the current military, I don't doubt a desire to demonstate the US ability to mobilize for war when desired. So perhaps one of the goals of the occupation has been to be able to use the draft - but in a more useful form than in Vietnam. I'd expect something very creative, something not seen before when the draft comes back. Wonder what it will be like?


http://dailydraftdispatch.org



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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #1
38. There will be no draft.
The Republican leaders are not stupid, and they know, as the original poster stated, the way to arouse real opposition to the war is a draft.

There will be no draft. You heard it here first.
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seimmud Donating Member (45 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 08:53 AM
Response to Original message
2. no offense but...
The draft wont be coming back. I dont care what ideology you are on. Its suicide for the repubs to do it ESPECIALLY after the election when the issue was raised. They are stupid, but not that stupid...they did manage to take over the govt. That either is a credit to them or a slam on us...take your pick. They know how to play the game and the draft is a loser.
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WI_DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. you are probably correct.
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FormerDittoHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. They can vote without giving their names...
...don't forget the option of voting verbally "all those in favor" and have no names taken.

Didn't they do this just last year with some bill?
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #2
20. Again I say...
I don't think they are worried about elections anymore.
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FormerDittoHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 08:53 AM
Response to Original message
3. There'd be something to pray for...
I do wish they'd try soon and show their true colors...

Likely they'll propose it now, mark it up quickly, and schedule it to vote during the next lame duck session, so it will pass regardless of any future election result...
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liberalpress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 08:58 AM
Response to Original message
8. OK. How many times do I have to tell you people..
...it's not "The Draft"... it's "Faith-based conscription"
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. I wish it was "faith based conscription"
Because I'd tell them I have no faith and they can go conscript their own zombies.
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txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
10. Christ! Doesn't anyone on this thread have kids?
I hope they don't try, don't succeed and don't even come close.

I've got kids and a war on.
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seimmud Donating Member (45 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. I have kids...
Not sure what that has to do with it. Im against it because its anti-freedom. When my kids turn 18, I have no say in their life and all I can do is worry. Be it a draft or cocaine use with a bad group of friends... Does it matter?
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ashmanonar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. i don't have kids...
but i AM 20...and single...and male...and in college...

i had a close friend get called up, bc he's in the michigan guard...he's a combat engineer, which means he's gonna be the guy blowing down doors and disarming bombs...

so i'm terrified beyond all belief.

i'm NOT cut out to be a soldier...i will protect this country by myself if we get taken over, but not when we're building a damn empire...screw that.
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ThorsHammer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #15
29. My thoughts exactly- big difference between protection and empire building
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Kitka Donating Member (488 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #10
21. Exactly. I think its a horrible to wish for the draft.
Even if it would wake people up, which I doubt it would anyway, its not worth sacrificing unwilling soldiers for. Hell no.
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #10
22. Boys, yes.
Edited on Tue Jan-11-05 09:34 AM by hang a left
And one will be 18 this summer. I just hope they play by the old rules and my kid will get a deferment for college.
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tomkertes Donating Member (62 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #10
30. the only politically smart and morally correct stance for progressives
is to be opposed to the draft on moral grounds. All Americans have the moral right of refusal from participating in an immoral and illegal occupation. While the draft may be a better way to constitute our military, the time to advance this is not during an illegal and immoral occupation. The draft issue now is about the reality of (1) making the occuation effort stronger, more deadly and a bigger mess and (2) the killing of many more people, including American kids. I support freedom from the draft because this is the morrally right position to hold.


http://dailydraftdispatch.org

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Brewman_Jax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
14. They're running out of options
Yesterday's news cast showed a unit is re-deploying to Iraq after leaving 18 mos ago. The National Guard is overstretched, along with the Active and Reserve Army forces. Stop-loss extensions and forced recalls will only go so far. They'll need fresh troops.

I'll be happy to hand out enlistment forms to the Bush* voters-- enlist now while you have a choice. :evilgrin:
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stanwyck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
16. As the mother of a Marine, I'm sick
of hearing Republicans saying bizarro things like, "Oh, I was going to join the Marines." or "I bet you're supporting Bush, now, aren't you?" First, if you wanted to enlist in the military, you would have. It doesn't count to say, "I thought about becoming a pilot, etc." You didn't. You're not some movie-induced idea of a warrior. So shut up.
Second, No, I don't support Bush now. No one in my family does. Including my son. Quit making that assumption.
I'm glad military service is voluntary. I don't want a draft. I just want the "brave from a far distance" folks to quit their macho posturing around me.
They'll be squealing like pigs if there's a draft. O'Reilly, Boortz, Hannity, DeLay, Gingrich, Limbaugh...they're fakes. In their minds, they're decorated heroes. The reality is, they had their chance and they, like Bush, stood down. Fine. Now, shut up.
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tomkertes Donating Member (62 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #16
32. What is really wrong is how many will stand aside and let the
occupation continue, until it seems like it will be there child who is fighting it. That is terribly wrong. Your son is every American's son. He should only be put in harm's way to defend America. That is what makes me sick. That the children of other Americans are being put in harm's way and those not facing the same really don't seem to care that much.


http://dailydraftdispatch.org

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kiraboo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
17. Wouldn't be surprised if the draft is reinstated.
Look, why shouldn't this administration go ahead and do it? Is there anything offensive and/or illegal they've done that has been opposed by any vocal faction in this country? Illegal war? SURE! Illegal imprisonment? YEAH! Tear up the Constitution? EXCELLENT! Steal the election? WORKS FOR ME! ...Draft? I'm betting we'll go along with it w/out a whimper.
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Strelnikov_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
23. If The Draft Is Reinstated, It Will Be The Least Of Most People's Worries
The war the new 'Pearl Harbor' or 'Tonkin Gulf' precipitated, thus requiring the draft, will be my concern, because it could get most of us dead.

I do not think they will attempt a draft for the current IraqNam conflict or the 'War on Terra'. Too many statements have been made that the existing military is adequate for the current adventures. It would be political suicide to destroy their grand illusion now.

It would take a massive escalation, in the form of an 'unprovoked' attack by a state actor, to place the proles in the state of mind where a draft would be politically acceptable.




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tomkertes Donating Member (62 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. Something big is happening now, perhaps the draft or a pull-out
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Strelnikov_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #27
39. My Bet Is A Pull Back To Garrison (Long Term) Bases After The Election
Edited on Tue Jan-11-05 01:14 PM by loindelrio
and an attempted handover to Iraq forces for day to day security.

And I am sure that this will work as well as everything has to date.

The problem is keeping the bases supplied (logistics) with a civil war raging around them.

I do not see them even thinking about a pull-out, unless they find a way to take the mid-east oil with them.

On edit: I read that article about the Brethren a while back. If true, it is a chilling indication as to how close we may be to a draft, no matter what is being said.
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #23
33. Agree -- they need a precipitating "event"
but I don't think it needs to be an attack by a state. ANYthing that freaks people out sufficiently would do it.
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VaYallaDawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #23
37. Your concept has the feel of a very cold, cold truth about it. n/t
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tomkertes Donating Member (62 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
25. All that is required is reasonable fear of the draft
and that is why it is important for progressives to launch an all out campaign for freedom from the draft. The draft violates basic American rights and liberties when used for an immoral and illegal occupation. All Americans have the right to freedom from the draft for *this* occupation. It's time for progressives to oppose the draft - if there is no draft we won, and if there is a draft we'll be better prepared.

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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #25
34. Do you have any ideas...
about where to start this campaign?
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tomkertes Donating Member (62 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Here are some resources:
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Done Donating Member (680 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
31. Bush's draft will be praised by the news media
as a fulfillment of his campaign promise to fight the war on terrorism. :crazy:

After all that dub-ya has done, after all the lies, after all the corruption, after all that the neocons have gotten away with, how can anyone doubt that there will be a draft? We not going to walk away from that oil, and the all volunteer army is not getting as many volunteers now. There will be a draft. If you are draft-able, start documenting your status as a CO now.
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ashmanonar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #31
42. that was just my thought...
would you happen to know of resources for establishing conscientious objector status?
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IntravenousDemilo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
35. I agree and disagree...
A lot of people from lower-income and minority (read: black) people find they must enlist because it's the only way to pull themselves and their families out of poverty -- not that your average soldier is paid all that well -- whereas upper-income white children don't feel the same compulsion to join up, because they want for nothing. So a preponderance of poor people find themselves as cannon fodder.

A draft, however, if consistently applied along the whole spectrum of incomes and ethnicities (no deferments because Daddy or some other family member is a high muck-a-muck, for instance), is something progressives should embrace as the right sort of social engineering -- but only if it promotes egalitarianism, with the sons and daughters of plutocrats and politicians being shot up with the same frequency as the sons and daughters of coal miners. Ah, if only it were for a JUST war!

But it's not, so I'm a little torn. As well, we in Canada do have a history of sheltering Americans dodging the military draft. We did it during the Vietnam conflict, and we're fully prepared to do so again, since we disagree with this war on principle as well. But we won't take in volunteers who happened to change their minds.
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seventythree Donating Member (904 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #35
41. reform the draft thoughts
I have a great ambivalence regarding the draft -- on the one hand, I agree that this country will not wake up until a draft occurs; but on the other, I hate the thought that anyone who is not a volunteer will be sent to die, as happened to my generation. I also recognize that the military doesn't want a draft and will go to the end of their rope to avoid one; however, we are so overstretched that should something catastrophic happen, there will be no choice. So... let us start to advocate for the reform of the system before a draft is upon us.
Here are my thoughts:
Establish an elaborate point system for family military service -- take it to the second level of consanguinity, ie, grandparents aunts/uncles/cousins. The most points go to a combat zone death of a member of the first level (mother/father/brother/sister) and down from there. More points for combat disability, purple heart, etc., down to service as a weekend warrior who never left the states. If a draft should come, it starts with all those between 19 and 30, say, with 0 family points. All in that age range would have to be called before we would go to those with one point, and so on (if more were called than what is needed, establish a lottery among them -- and NO deferments).
This reform would recognize that military service impacts the entire family unit, that all families have a duty to participate, that those who have given the most shouldn't be asked again, and those who have recently arrived need to give as others have (you could establish points for new immigrant families if their loved ones were allies and served with us in conflicts).
thoughts?
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
40. It's the draft, or a great depression to bring chimpie down.
Other catastrophes also possible under his feeble hand.
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