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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:51 AM
Original message
More "real" dirt on HAARP
I seriously doubt that most of our "representatives" know what they funded here.... if they did, I am sure they might be inclined to shut it down yesterday. Dumbasses.



http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/096488120...
>>From a rural location in Alaska, controlled by "Big Oil", the US government is blasting billions of watts of high frequency microwave energy at our protective ionospheric shell which surrounds the earth. Their offical reason is "to see what it does". Several acres of Alaskan land have been dedicated to the construction of the HAARP array (you can actually find a picture of it online...)but it's real purpose runs from the practical (earth tomography (X-ray the earth to look for enemy submarines and secret underground bases)) through the hard to believe (transmission of electrical power without wires (Tesla's idea) through the insane (the complete disruption of global communications and mucking with weather patterns by shifting the jet stream).

This book is so well documented, often citing documents published by the US government itself, that it is absolutely convincing and frightening.<<

>>GREAT READ - While reading this is I had the image of Nichola Tesla sitting by one of his inventions calmly reading a book with his longish hair standing out on edge due to static electricity. PBS has a wonderful special on him that is worth adding to your library.

That said, this is a frightening book if even a small part of it is authentic. It makes some very good arguements for being "off the grid" and out in the country. In an age where people are concerned about global warming this is a very interesting concept - some of the HAARP technology can be used to heat up the ionosphere in order to bounce lasers off of it and back to earth. Some of the other applications being considered are also surprising. The should be a wildly read and circulated book. I am not a scientist and I imagine that some of what is contained here is probably hotly debated. Some of the work contained in this book and also Tesla have been written about in the science journal Nexxus.<<

>>The authors build a framework to expose, possibly the most, perplexing usages of technology in the 20th century. The reader would rather discount the implications revealed as science fiction, but the authors provide documentation, patent numbers and references. Questions are raised about the impact, not only on the environment, but the inhabitants of this planet. Left me seeking more information on Tesla and validation of his genius, and wondering where one could locate shelter if this experiment goes askew.<<
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Frangible Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
1. Read this
HAARP is really overblown imo, there isn't any evidence to support the far fetched claims of that book and others. Even if ELF communication could change the weather, and there's no evidence it can, HAARP is only a 3.6 MW transmitter... so it doesn't have the power to do much at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAARP
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spooked Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I wouldn't be so quick to discount it
http://www.disinfo.com/archive/pages/dossier/id6/pg1 /

What are the Strangelovian knuckleheads from military intelligence cooking up in a remote corner of the Alaskan wilderness? Um . . . believe it or not, they're frying the ionosphere in a reckless attempt to turn the Earth's atmosphere into a giant X-Ray device . . . And if it weren't for the brave efforts of whistleblowers like Nick Begich and Jeane Manning, no one would be the wiser! The potential environmental Armageddon which is the HAARP Project is MAJOR news in countries like Australia, why do so few Americans know what their government is up to? And ask yourself why did the Navy feel the need to produce that spiffy 'official' HAARP website after HAARP became such a hot topic on the Internet? Disinformation? You decide!
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neebob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Well, yeah
Why'd they build the friggin' thing? No, it wasn't to see what happens. It has a specific purpose, and undoubtedly a few other potential applications - but the reason they funded it has nothing to do with the health and welfare of the entire planet. It isn't a good thing or an innocuous thing. Duh.
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. The Congressional Executive Summary divulges effective radiated powers
in excess of one gigawatt. Can you deal with that? Then there are the extensive patents describing it's potential for many varying applications....

1000/3.6 if my in my head math still works... is off by a ratio of 360 to one.

http://www.viewzone.com/haarp.exec.html
Effective-Radiated-Powers (ERP) in Excess of 1 Gigawatt

>>One gigawatt of effective-radiated-power represents an important threshold power level, over which significant wave generation and electron acceleration efficiencies can be achieved, and other significant heating effects can be expected.<<

>>The highest ERPs achieved by US. facilities is about one-fourth of that. Presently, a heater in Norway, operated by the Max Planck Institute in the Federal Republic of Germany, is being reconfigured to provide 1 gigawatt of ERP at a single HF frequency. The HAARP is to ultimately have a HF heater with an ERP well above 1 gigawatt (on the order of 95-100 dBW); in short, the most powerful facility in the world for conducting ionospheric modification research.<<

http://www.bariumblues.com/haarp1.htm

"What this author wishes to make clear is that he believes HAARP is not the actual facility designed to be used as a military system but a "front" or "red herring" facility which allows the authorities to deny important questions about its purpose and operation. The real facility is located in Poker Flats, North of Fairbanks, Alaska. Please read the Congressional Executive Summary which is provided here in full for the truth."


Albert Einstein's theories of relativity and the development of atomic energy are seen as the pinnacles of Twentieth Century technology. But Bernard Eastlund's discoveries, when they are eventually disclosed, will render many of Einstein's innovations obsolete.

Dan Eden

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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #3
21. I can't work out if the "Congressional Executive Summary" is genuine
because it is the same as this 'paper' from 'Gaiacomm International', but with "Gaiacomm 4G technology" changed to "the HF Active Auroral Ionospheric Research Program (HAARP)" and such name changes - or maybe the changes occurred the other way round.

http://www.gaiacomminternational.com/popup.php?popup=p1

Gaiacomm International does appear to be a real company (base largely around the Horne family:

The Board of Directors consists of Dr. Judah Ben-Hur, Chairman, Mr. David H. Horne, Jr., President and CEO, Mr. Dan J. Thomas, Jr., Executive Vice-President and COO, and Mr. Rob S. Cotton, Director of Human Resources. Ms. Brandie M. Halterman is Webmaster / Administrator.

The company's Board of Advisors includes several notables: Florida Commissioner of Education Jim Horne, former Florida DOE Chief Technology Officer Ruben P. Lopez, attorney-at-law, J. Allison DeFoor II, the 1990 Lt. Governor running mate of former Florida Governor Bob Martinez, and William E. ("Bill") Horne, President-CEO, Outback Sports, Inc.

http://www.jaxbusinessexchange.com/News_Items/Gaiacomm_...


but I can't find any more references to it apart from its PR releases and an 'award' from "Frost & Sullivan" - who do give awards to genuine companies like HP, it must be admitted. So is Gaiacomm genuine? It has big ideas, according to its plan to set up offices in Jacksonville. It names real people in its Borad of Advisors. But it seems to have no accomplishments so far. Who originated the paper that it shares (with name changes) with the viewzone site? Has anyone any ideas on finding out which is the genuine one, and which is the ripoff?

The Executive Summary you linked to is actually described by viewzone as the military's executive summary - not something to do with Congress. How did viewzone get hold of it? Why is there no date on it?
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. On further reading, I think the Gaiacomm site is the ripoff
because it has a few extra paragraphs like this:

(Generation of geomagnetic-field aligned ionization to control the reflection/scattering properties of radio waves will result in a number of outcomes. It will jam unwanted signals, make data stealth, and focus RF signals to localized areas to selectively ignite the surrounding atmosphere, which will create a flash burn effect. This effect will incinerate all air and ground living and non-living entities. In short, a military weapon of unprecedented proportions with no nuclear radiation generated aftereffects. This device can use the surrounding atmospheric layers to burn off everything in its path without firing a single shot. Localizing atmospheric area techniques to selected targeted areas can also be accomplished with this heating process. In short, using the Compton effect to alter the air to ground electric charge. This is even more effective than EMP during a nuclear blast.)


Note the poor use of language ("It will ... make data stealth"). Note also that this claims to be able to do just about anything you want. Not only does it 'make data stealth', it will also 'incinerate all air and ground living and non-living entities'. I wouldn't call that particularly stealthy. So if this ability is so productive, you might think they'd talk about it in section 2.5 ("Generation of Field Aligned Ionization"); but they don't - it's just in paretheses in the summary.

So, I think that 'Judah Ben Hur' (is there really anyone wit hthe same name as the hero of the film?) has ripped off the viewzone military Executive Summary. But I'd still like to know when the viewzone document dates from, and if there's any confirming evidence of its authorship.
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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Now what in the heck do you mean by that?? EOM
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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. the laughter was not in answer to your post but
Edited on Sat Jan-08-05 03:43 PM by ooglymoogly
for frangible who does not believe haarp is very dangerous to us all
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Oh..... nevermind... Naw... it's just another radio tower... eom
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Frangible Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. ok, Mulder
Should I call Scully for you, or do you want to do that?
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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. well aren't you just the cutest thaaang...
Edited on Sat Jan-08-05 06:02 PM by ooglymoogly
mulder ha bust a gut....call scully ha....wow you must be one o them "pickup truck itulectules"; to coin a phrase
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Frangible Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. I see your grammar is as logical as your conspiracy theories
nt
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. William Cohen would find issue with you sir....
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Frangible Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Perhaps
Fortunately, the laws of physics don't change due to his speech.
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Fortunately, the laws of physics don't change due to his speech.
Neither do the skeptics.... they remain ever present to quash original thinking and innovation.

Editorial: WHEN IS A SCIENTIST NOT A SCIENTIST?
By Hal Fox, Editor

One of the types of scientific action that has always puzzled me has been the rejection of new scientific discoveries. Here are some examples:

1875: Gasoline in the hands of people ... would constitute a fire and explosive hazard of the first rank. ... The development of the new power may displace the use of horses, which would wreck our agriculture. Congressional Record of 1875.

1902: Flight by machines heavier than air is unpractical and insignificant, if not utterly impossible. New York Times, December 10, 1903.

1910: The popular mind often pictures gigantic flying machines speeding across the Atlantic carrying innumerable passengers in a way analogous to our modern steamships. ... It seems safe to say that such ideas are wholly visionary. William Pickering, American astronomer.

1923: There is no likelihood man can ever tap the power of the atom. The glib supposition of utilizing atomic energy when our coal has run out is a completely unscientific Utopian dream, a childish bug-a-boo. Robert Millikan, Theoretical Physicist.

1937: Thus it appears that the cyclotron cannot be made to give much higher energies than those obtained thus far. Hans Bethe, in Physical Review.

1945: The biggest fool thing we've ever done. The atom bomb will never go off and I speak as an expert on explosions. Admiral William Leahy, aide to President Roosevelt.

1999: Commenting on low-energy nuclear reactions: How stupid do you think we are? My assessment of you and your colleagues is that you are complete frauds or totally mad. There is no known physical principle that would support the kind of results that you claim your technology can accomplish, nor is there any credible argument why there should be such a principle. Name of scientist withheld in hope of a return to sanity.

As a scientist, as an inventor, as the former director of a research laboratory, as a former missile system engineer, I do not understand how any person can call himself or herself a scientist and exhibit such a closed mind to new scientific discoveries!



http://users.erols.com/iri/ZPENERGY.html

http://www.calphysics.org/zpe.html
Quantum physics predicts the existence of an underlying sea of zero-point energy at every point in the universe. This is different from the cosmic microwave background and is also referred to as the electromagnetic quantum vacuum since it is the lowest state of otherwise empty space. This energy is so enormous that most physicists believe that even though zero-point energy seems to be an inescapable consequence of elementary quantum theory, it cannot be physically real, and so is subtracted away in calculations.

A minority of physicists accept it as real energy which we cannot directly sense since it is the same everywhere, even inside our bodies and measuring devices. From this perspective, the ordinary world of matter and energy is like a foam atop the quantum vacuum sea. It does not matter to a ship how deep the ocean is below it. If the zero-point energy is real, there is the possibility that it can be tapped as a source of power or be harnassed to generate a propulsive force for space travel.

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NecessaryOnslaught Donating Member (691 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #20
78. The facinating tale of Philip Taylor Kramer
"Philip Taylor Kramer (known to friends as Taylor) first came into the public eye in 1974, when he was 22. He had been bumming around on the West Coast, working as a ditchdigger and occasionally as a musician. His break, of sorts, came when he landed a job as a bouncer at L.A.s Whiskey-A-Go-Gothe hottest rock club in existence and the launch pad for bands like the Doors. There he met drummer Ron Bushy.....In 1974 he decided to re-form Iron Butterfly, and asked Kramer to come along.... Taylor was so excited, Kramers sister Kathy recalls. In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida had so much meaning. It was a legend......

...For six months the floundering Butterfly limped through a circuit of third-rate halls, enduring desert heat and blizzard cold in the back of a dilapidated touring truck. Bushy and Kramer spent every waking moment together. We shared everything, including women, Bushy says. But Kramer eschewed Butterflys traditional drugged-out partying in favor of long nights spent scribbling lyrics and mathematical formulas.
Wed go to Dennys and stay up all night and write music and talk about his theories, says Bushy. He was talking stuff that was science fiction, about how you could not only communicate but also transport matter from point A to point B, anywhere in the galaxy. Real Beam me up, Scotty stuff.

Kramers alter ego, the nerdy mathematician inside the veneer of the flamboyant rock star, was the strangest of his many bizarre contradictions. It dated back to his childhood, and a family obsession with proving that Einstein was wrong.

Beginning in the early 60s, his father, Ray, an engineering professor at Ohio State University, began an obsessive theoretical quest to help mankind conquer the boundaries of time and space. Using the formula I discovered, he claims to this day, you could reach the outer limits of the universe in less than a second."
Much more...
http://www.maximonline.com/maximwear/articles/article_2...

"His fellow scientists roared in laughter. They scoffed at the notion that this deluded ex-drugee could prove that both Albert Einstein and Stephen Hawkins were wrong. They told everyone who would listen that he had flipped out. They said that Taylor's prior years of drug and alcohol abuse had finally caught up to him and that he had suffered a breakdown from whose depths they doubted he would ever arise. Taylor simply ignored the ignorant and the global scorn that they were heaping upon him and produced several reality shattering papers, one concerning Gravitational Waves, another on Matter to Energy Conversion, and a final paper on The Mechanics of Bending and Folding of Space. All three papers, as with many more that he later produced are now well beyond classified. All his university papers have also been removed from the school archives and are publicly unavailable. After all this Taylor was working on a paper concerning Time and Gravity when he disappeared. After years of searching his last known whereabouts, his van was found and a desiccated corpse, presumed to be Taylor's, was discovered in Malibu Canyon State Park."
http://www.netwiz.net/~spot/DEFCON/Kramer/kramer.html

".....Some were convinced that was hed been abducted, possibly by a foreign government. Representative James Traficant, congressman from Kramers home district in Ohio, sent a letter to the FBI urging that they mount an investigation. The possibility that foreign elements could be involved in Mr. Kramers unexplained disappearance should not be overlooked, he wrote. If the information Mr. Kramer had access to fell into the hands of enemiesthe international balance of power could be seriously threatened."
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #20
87. I agree
great quotes too.
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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #13
32. the grammar, as you put it, was intended....duuuu
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. Why don't you call the former secretary of defense, William
Cohen... and ask him what he meant by all a dat...

>>Others are engaging even in an eco-type of terrorism whereby they can alter the climate, set off earthquakes, volcanoes remotely through the use of electromagnetic waves So there are plenty of ingenious minds out there that are at work finding ways in which they can wreak terror upon other nationsIt's real, and that's the reason why we have to intensify our efforts.

Secretary of Defense William Cohen at an April 1997 counterterrorism conference sponsored by former Senator Sam Nunn. Quoted from DoD News Briefing, Secretary of Defense William S. Cohen, Q&A at the Conference on Terrorism, Weapons of Mass Destruction, and U.S. Strategy, University of Georgia, Athens, Apr. 28, 1997.<<
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
6. Ooh! New information!
I knew there had to be a reason this crap was being posted yet again.
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Not crap. Not not not. Not crap. Potentially devastating in the wrong
hands yes.... crap no. Crap is on the other thread.
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. Thanks for bringing so much to the table, Nelson.
Edited on Sat Jan-08-05 06:21 PM by JohnOneillsMemory
Since all you can offer is "Haw haw." Maybe Tom Delay's vitriol about the "X-Files wing of the Democratic Party" inspired you.

Any other wisdom you'd like to share to help Americans figure out what the hell is going on with their federal budget being handed as a blank check to the Pentagon's black budget and what to do about it?

You are obviously waiting to deliver. Wait no more!

Begin.

No, really. Begin.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
14. BAE Systems Recieves $35 Million For HAARP Program
June 14 2004

Washington (SPX) Jun 14, 2004 - The Office of Naval Research has awarded BAE Systems a $35.4 million contract to manufacture 132 high frequency (HF) transmitters for installation in the High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program's (HAARP) phased array antenna system. The contract was finalized April 19 with BAE Systems Information & Electronic Warfare Systems in Washington, D.C.

The HAARP program collects and assesses data to advance knowledge of the physical and electrical properties of the Earth's ionosphere. "We look forward to contributing to this critical program. This is an opportunity for BAE Systems to play an important role in expanding knowledge of the Earth's ionosphere.

Significant potential applications include long-range communication, sensing and satellite vulnerability to nuclear effects," said Ramy Shanny, BAE Systems vice president and general manager for Advanced Technologies (AT).

In 1992, AT was awarded a contract to design and build the Ionospheric Research Instrument (IRI), the HAARP program's primary tool used to study ionospheric physics. The IRI is currently composed of 48 antenna elements and has a power capacity of 960,000 watts.

When installed, the additional 132 transmitters will give HAARP a 3.6 mega-watt capacity. The HAARP build-out is jointly funded by the U.S. Air Force, the U.S. Navy and the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA).
more
http://www.spacedaily.com/news/missiles-04zi.html


BAE SYSTEMS North America has reached a definitive agreement with Advanced Power Technologies, Inc. (APTI), to purchase the corporation for $27 million in cash.

APTI, a private company with headquarters in Washington, D.C., focuses on intelligence, surveillance, reconnaissance exploitation and information processing for defence, civil and commercial uses. APTI's core competencies include radio frequency (RF) and optical engineering, communications and networking, signal and data exploitation and knowledge creation.

Other disciplines include microwave engineering; antenna design and development; optical sensors, plasma and shock physics; advanced ordnance systems; non-destructive testing; signal and image processing; and digital control systems, including industrial-based process controls.

...

Mark Ronald, president and chief executive officer, BAE SYSTEMS North America said, "APTI's demonstrated performance, growth and high quality technical workforce align well with BAE SYSTEMS growth strategy in network centric warfare and information operations.

...

About BAE SYSTEMS:

BAE SYSTEMS is a systems company, innovating for a safer world. BAE SYSTEMS employs nearly 100,000 people including joint ventures, and has annual sales of around $19 billion. The company offers a global capability in air, sea, land and space with a world-class prime contracting ability supported by a range of key skills. BAE SYSTEMS designs, manufactures and supports military aircraft, surface ships, submarines, radar, avionics, communications, electronics, guided weapon systems and a range of other defence products.

BAE SYSTEMS is dedicated to making the intelligent connections needed to deliver innovative solutions.
more
http://www.globenet.free-online.co.uk/index.htm


How and why was electronic warfare carried out in rural Tennessee?

From the known profile of electronic weaponry, the electronic attack upon WJKM appears to have been caused by a tactical electromagnetic weapon, emitting a directed electromagnetic plasma, beam, pulse, etc. at the target. Electronic weapons with this capability are known, and can be land mounted in a facility like the former power plant, mounted in portable facilities like vans, trucks, helicopters or airplanes.

Electronic weapons may even be space-based, on satellite platforms. This reporter has personally met with an Assistant Secretary of Defense at the Pentagon who confirmed the existence of such secret space-based weapons as early as 1977.

An alternative electronic warfare delivery system may involve newly constructed relays for the HAARP installation in Alaska. The potential tactical electronic warfare applications of HAARP are under investigation. Serious public interest researchers maintain that HAARP's electromagnetic energy may cause effects such as earthquakes, such as occurred on July 7 in Hartsville. Electromagnetic weapons have been used in tectonic warfare, intentionally causing earthquakes. Electromagnetic pulse energy accompanies most earthquakes. Research shows that ultra low frequencies emitted by the HAARP installation may affect the human limbic system, and be used for mood management and mind control.

The close resemblance of the Hartsville attack to other U.S. Air Force electronic warfare led to speculation that radio station WJKM may have been chosen as a test target for a clandestine electronic warfare unit located within the power facility, or to which the power facility serves as electronic relay point. The likelihood that the electronic attack was accidental, rather than an intentional military test, is low, given that the targets were media outlets.
more
http://www.ecologynews.com/cuenews31.html


BAE Systems is Europe's largest arms exporter. BAE Systems is dedicated to producing innovative and high-specification ways of killing and maiming people. Satisfied BAE customers include Saddam Hussein in Iraq, General Pinochet in Chile, and the House of Saud. Are you a feudal Middle Eastern dictatorship that tortures your political opponents - and innocent British citizens? BAE Systems says: No problem! We just want your cash.
more
http://www.angloarabia.com /

Carlyle Interested in BAE's Shipbuilding Unit, Telegraph Says
July 25 (Bloomberg) -- U.S. buyout firm Carlyle Group, whose senior advisers have included former President George H.W. Bush, has expressed interest in buying BAE Systems Plc's shipbuilding business, the Sunday Telegraph reported, without citing sources.

The paper said Carlyle hasn't decided if an offer would include BAE's submarine operations at Barrow-in-Furness, England, and the sale of Britain's only submarine business to a foreign company may be politically sensitive.

BAE's Chief Executive Mike Turner said July 12 that Europe's largest weapons maker is in talks with several ``interested parties'' about selling its unprofitable shipbuilding unit, which makes Type 45 destroyers and Astute submarines. The company hasn't yet outlined what assets would be included in a sale.

Any bidder for Barrow would compete with DML, which runs the Devonport Royal Dockyard, and is 51 percent owned by Halliburton Co., the oilfield contractor led by Vice President Dick Cheney before he returned to politics in 2000, the paper said. The U.K.'s VT Group Plc has also said it's interested in BAE's shipbuilding yards in Barrow and Glasgow, Scotland.
more
http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000102&sid=a ...

From The Sunday Times
Snip
David Leppard and Robert Winnett

BRITAINS biggest defence company has been accused by a whistleblower of operating a 60m slush fund to channel bribes to members of Saudi Arabias royal family. BAE Systems now faces a criminal investigation over allegations that it used Peter Gardiner, a reputable travel agent from St Albans, Hertfordshire, to lavish its Saudi clients with gifts and luxury holidays.

Gardiner has given details of the payments in interviews with the Serious Fraud Office (SFO). Speaking publicly for the first time, he told The Sunday Times that he had spent 60m on BAEs behalf. It was an enormous amount of money. Its more a question of what we didnt spend it on than what we did, said Gardiner.

The slush fund spent by Gardiner over 13 years from 1989 and 2002 provided a 170,000 Rolls-Royce, other luxury cars, London apartments, private air travel and accommodation in five-star hotels in Hawaii, Los Angeles, Paris and New York. Under separate arrangements, middlemen also arranged prostitutes for some dignitaries.

The largesse was extended to Saudi officials and members of the countrys large royal family who controlled the kingdoms arms procurement, the chief source of BAEs income over the past 18 years.
more
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1190953,00 ...

By Sylvia Pfeifer (Filed: 25/07/2004)

An American private equity group with close links to the Bush administration has emerged as a leading contender to acquire the shipbuilding business of BAE Systems, Britain's largest defence company.

Carlyle, which specialises in defence deals, is known for its links to the White House.

Until last year it counted George Bush Sr, the former US president, among its advisers. George W Bush, the US president, once served on the board of directors of Caterair, an airline catering company owned by Carlyle. James Baker, the former US secretary of state, and John Major, the former prime minister, both hold senior positions in the private equity group.

Carlyle has not yet decided whether its possible offer would include BAE's submarine operations at Barrrow-in-Furness. However, the sale of what is Britain's only submarine business to a foreign company could be politically sensitive.

Any bidder for Barrow will face competition from DML, the company that runs the Devonport Royal Dockyard. DML is 51 per cent owned by Halliburton, the US oil services company that used to be run by Dick Cheney, the US vice-president.


Analysts say one possibility would be for DML to link up with either VT or Carlyle to buy the yards. However, it is still not certain that BAE will proceed with the sale. The company has yet to issue a formal sales memorandum
more
http://www.money.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml= /...

The defence firm and the slush fund
Robert Winnett and David Leppard

FOR the Saudi princes and princesses it was just another luxury trip to the paradise island of Oahu in Hawaii. Under the shadow of Diamond Head, the islands volcano, they enjoyed the run of one of the worlds best hotels while spending thousands in gourmet restaurants and designer boutiques.

The party of 50 people checked into its usual floor of suites at the Kahala Mandarin Oriental hotel. It has its own dolphins in a private blue lagoon, spas and beach butlers to provide face sprays, cooling drinks and sunshades. They hired a fleet of cars and after a few days travelled in a private Boeing 707 to another Hawaiian island, Maui, to stay at the five-star Grand Wailea hotel. The total cost of the trip in August 1998 was more than 250,000, including 25,000 on car hire.

For the Saudis, such holidays are part of the trappings of their royal status and influence in the oil-rich desert kingdom. But the trip to Oahu and similar jaunts are now attracting the attention of Britains Serious Fraud Office (SFO).

This weekend, details of the trip and others funded by BAE Systems, Britains biggest defence company, have been disclosed by a whistleblower to The Sunday Times.
more
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,176-1190346,0 ...


BAE probed on 60m Saudi slush fund
From The Sunday Times
Snip
David Leppard and Robert Winnett

BRITAINS biggest defence company has been accused by a whistleblower of operating a 60m slush fund to channel bribes to members of Saudi Arabias royal family. BAE Systems now faces a criminal investigation over allegations that it used Peter Gardiner, a reputable travel agent from St Albans, Hertfordshire, to lavish its Saudi clients with gifts and luxury holidays.

Gardiner has given details of the payments in interviews with the Serious Fraud Office (SFO). Speaking publicly for the first time, he told The Sunday Times that he had spent 60m on BAEs behalf. It was an enormous amount of money. Its more a question of what we didnt spend it on than what we did, said Gardiner.

The slush fund spent by Gardiner over 13 years from 1989 and 2002 provided a 170,000 Rolls-Royce, other luxury cars, London apartments, private air travel and accommodation in five-star hotels in Hawaii, Los Angeles, Paris and New York. Under separate arrangements, middlemen also arranged prostitutes for some dignitaries.

The largesse was extended to Saudi officials and members of the countrys large royal family who controlled the kingdoms arms procurement, the chief source of BAEs income over the past 18 years.

From:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1190953,00 ...

BAE wins 1bn Hawk contract

from the Guardian
Wednesday September 3, 2003
BAE Systems, Britain's biggest weapons maker, today clinched a contentious 1bn order to supply Hawk training aircraft to India, in a contract for which Tony Blair personally lobbied.
The deal, in negotiation for more than a decade, has sparked much political contention in Britain.
(snip)
Critics have argued that the sale lays the British government open to charges of hypocrisy, as it was pushing for a big arms deal at the same time as playing peacemaker between India and Pakistan over the disputed territory of Kashmir.
ales to India and Pakistan, despite political tension between the two regional rivals.

more
http://www.guardian.co.uk/india/story/0,12559,1034880,0 ...

400 boxes of documents --- from Travellers World

Although such hospitality is considered routine in some Third World countries, it is a criminal offence for British companies to pay bribes to overseas officials. Fraud investigators are also concerned about the way the payments were described in the companys accounts.
The SFO is now studying Gardiners statement, together with the contents of nearly 400 boxes of documents that he has volunteered from Travellers World, his company.

Last week Gardiner said his company had acted entirely properly. He approached the SFO in March and has been helping them and the police uncover full details of the slush fund since then. The possibility of a criminal investigation into BAE marks a new low for the defence company, once the darling of new Labour. It has fallen out of favour after being accused of massive overspending on a series of Ministry of Defence contracts.

Gardiners evidence spans much of the period of the Al-Yamamah arms deal, Britains biggest export contract. It resulted in the sale of more than 20 billion worth of aircraft, such as Tornado and Hawk jets, and other military equipment to the oil-rich state.

Whitehall officials said last week they were shocked by the scale of the alleged slush fund. The government is determined to show that all cases of alleged corruption will be fully investigated, but the case is highly sensitive.
more
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1190953,00 ...


UK arms firm's 60m Saudi slush fund
Police inquiry into arms firm's 60m slush fund

David Leigh and Rob Evans
Tuesday May 4, 2004
The Guardian

...

Files have been seized by Ministry of Defence police alleging corruption on a massive scale by Britain's biggest arms firm, BAE Systems. Payments totalling more than 60m to prominent Saudis are listed, a far greater amount than has been previously alleged.
MoD fraud squad detectives investigating allegations of bribery of a civil servant have seized 386 boxes of "slush fund" accounts.

Most explosively, the documents detail 17m in benefits and cash allegedly paid by BAE, which is chaired by Sir Dick Evans, to the key Saudi politician in charge of British arms purchases, Prince Turki bin Nasser. He is recorded under the codename "PB", alleged to mean "principal beneficiary".

BAE is trying to secure another 1.5bn of arms deals from the Saudi regime, following the sale of planes, missiles and warships worth 50bn to them over the past 15 years.

The documents list by name every Saudi official alleged to have received benefits from BAE in recent years. These include a number of military attaches at Saudi Arabia's London embassy, recorded as being provided with luxury London houses at BAE's expense.
more
http://www.guardian.co.uk/armstrade/story/0,10674,12090 ...

BAE Systems is offering its staff in Saudi Arabia an extra 1,000 a month in an attempt to stop the exodus of staff, one employee has told BBC News Online. The indefinite monthly payment follows a one-off payment of 4,500 in December after housing compounds were bombed in May 2003, killing 35 people.

The security situation has deteriorated since then. Earlier this month al-Qaeda militants beheaded an American engineer they had been holding hostage.

The British-owned defence firm made the 1,000 cash offer in an e-mail to each of its 2,400 staff in Saudi Arabia, describing it as an "emergency security payment", the employee said.

The employee said that people have been on edge since the housing compounds came under fire in May 2003 but that employees were encouraged to stay on the payroll to get the lump-sum offer in December.
more
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3837407.stm

Includes replies to:
"Are you an expatriate working in Saudi Arabia? Are you pondering to leave or is the security situation still under control? And how is your company persuading you to stay? Tell us your experiences.At the request of our readers in Saudi Arabia e-mailing us their stories, all names have been withheld"


US war system reaps $2bn for BAE

David Gow
Saturday July 19, 2003
The Guardian

BAE Systems, Britain's biggest defence manufacturer, yesterday secured its place at the heart of the Pentagon's visionary new electronic warfare programme, with a contract from Boeing worth up to $2bn.

It is seen by the Pentagon as capable of delivering a precise firepower that will dwarf the "shock and awe" seen in Iraq this year.
BAE's selection, along with Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman and Raytheon, America's biggest defence contractors, buttresses its ambition to become a substantial US military supplier.

The company, at loggerheads with the British government, has made no secret of its ultimate plans for merger with the big US players such as Boeing or Lockheed, though talk of an imminent deal is too premature.

The highly classified work of BAE's two US units, one of them acquired from Lockheed and both run by US citizens, will be kept secret from the company's main British businesses under US laws, which forbid such technology transfer - a restriction that Tony Blair asked to be lifted in his Washington visit this week.

Jack Dromey, chief defence industry negotiator at the TGWU, said the plans would mean the end of a 70m project, known as Red Dragon, to build a repair facility in the centre of a new aviation park at RAF St Athans, near Cardiff.
more
http://www.guardian.co.uk/military/story/0,11816,100142 ...

BAE Systems enters agreement with Carlyle Group

BAE Systems North America has reached agreement with The Carlyle Group, Washington, D.C., to spin out its Imaging Sensors business located at Milpitas, Calif.
Imaging Sensors was previously part of BAE Systems Reconnaissance and Surveillance Systems of Syosset, N.Y. In the transaction, BAE Systems provided the assets of Imaging Sensors to form a new company, Fairchild Imaging, Inc. Closing of the agreement occurred April 6, 2001.
The core competencies of the new company, Fairchild Imaging, are in charged coupled device development and fabrication and electronic imaging systems. This company pioneered the development of CCD imaging technologies and has continued to innovate in a number of commercial product areas serving medical, dental and industrial surveillance markets. It currently employs 123 people.
"Fairchild Imaging is an excellent business. This transaction is part of our continuing strategic alignment to our aerospace core competencies, and provides Fairchild Imaging with great opportunity for future investment growth and success in its new commercial markets as well," said Mark Ronald, president and CEO, BAE Systems North America.
Under the terms of the transaction, BAE Systems North America retains an equity interest in Fairchild Imaging. The new company will continue to provide CCD products to the Reconnaissance and Surveillance Systems business within BAE Systems North America. Financial terms were not disclosed.
MORE
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi-bin/client/modele ....
UK: MoD official took BAE gifts
David Leigh and Rob Evans
Tuesday April 6, 2004
The Guardian

A slush fund run by Britain's biggest arms firm, BAE Systems, has been providing free holidays to a low-paid civil servant at the Ministry of Defence, according to allegations made to the Guardian.

The information has been passed to the Serious Fraud Office, which is planning to interview a key witness today.

...

The firm, which uses a battery of methods to persuade Britain and regimes all over the world to buy its weapons, has frequently been at the centre of corruption allegations abroad. The Guardian disclosed this year that since Labour legislated against bribery of foreign public officials, BAE has secretly shifted its files of payments to agents and foreign politicians into a vault in Geneva. BAE is also alleged to be using Swiss banks and offshore companies in the British Virgin Islands to conceal its transactions.

The Guardian also disclosed allegations that BAE has been operating a 20m slush fund to provide prostitutes, yachts and free trips for Saudis. This fund, according to the documents, also appears to have been used to finance the free holidays for Mr Porter. BAE has refused to respond to all these allegations, other than to make a generalised denial of wrongdoing.
more
http://www.guardian.co.uk/military/story/0,11816,118678 ...

BAE chairman named in 'slush fund' files
David Leigh and Rob Evans
Wednesday May 5, 2004
The Guardian

...

Sir Dick Evans, the retiring chairman of BAE who faces his his final shareholders meeting today, has been named in allegations concerning the arms firm's 60m "slush fund", according to documents seen by the Guardian.

His name is referred to in a number of alleged phone calls, emails and meetings. The slush fund allegations are under investigation by Ministry of Defence police.

Sir Dick, who also faces questioning on arms procurement by MPs on the Commons defence committee this afternoon, remained silent yesterday in the face of the allegations about him.

Documents previously seized by MoD police detail 17m of alleged payments to a Saudi responsible for arms purchases from Britain, Prince Turki bin Nasser.
more
http://www.guardian.co.uk/armstrade/story/0,10674,12097 ...

DRS Technologies Receives $23.3 Million Contract to Provide High-Frequency Radio Transmitters for U.S. Government
Tuesday June 15, 9:30 am ET

PARSIPPANY, N.J.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--June 15, 2004--DRS Technologies, Inc. (NYSE: DRS - News) announced today that it has received a $23.3 million contract, including options, to provide high-frequency (HF) radio transmitters for the High-Frequency Active Auroral Research Program (HAARP), which supports a U.S. government Arctic research facility being built to study the Earth's upper atmosphere.
The $11.5 million base contract was awarded to DRS by BAE Systems PLC (LSE: BA.L - News). For this award, DRS will manufacture more than 60 Model D616G 10-Kilowatt Dual Transmitters to fulfill the transmitter requirements for the HAARP program. Work for this order will be performed by the company's DRS Broadcast Technology unit in Dallas, Texas. Product deliveries to BAE Systems' Information and Electronic Warfare Systems in Washington, D.C., are scheduled to begin in March 2005 and continue for approximately one year.

"We are pleased to continue our role as a premier supplier of transmitters for the HAARP program," said Steven T. Schorer, president of DRS's C4I Group. "This award enhances DRS's position as a leader in high-technology radio frequency solutions for secure and tactical communications systems supporting the applications of the government scientific research community."

The high-frequency or short-wave Model D616G Transmitters were designed specifically for the U.S. government HAARP research facility. Currently, the ionosphere provides long-range capabilities for commercial ship-to-shore communications, transoceanic aircraft links, and military communications and surveillance systems.

A primary goal of HAARP is to understand how variations in the sun's radiation affect the performance of radio systems and to improve military command, control, communications and surveillance systems.

DRS Broadcast Technology, formerly known as Continental Electronics, is a global leader in broadcast transmitter equipment. It is the foremost supplier of advanced radio frequency transmission technology and the world's most experienced provider of the highest power radio broadcast equipment, offering a full range of products for broadcasting, military and scientific applications.

DRS Technologies, headquartered in Parsippany, New Jersey, provides leading edge products and services to defense, government intelligence and commercial customers. Focused on defense technology, DRS develops and manufactures a broad range of mission critical systems. The company employs 5,800 people worldwide
more
http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/040615/155095_1

working links here
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. Christ seemslikeadream, that was impressive.... howzabout what
Mr. Cohen had to say about it a few years back??


Others are engaging even in an eco-type of terrorism whereby they can alter the climate, set off earthquakes, volcanoes remotely through the use of electromagnetic waves So there are plenty of ingenious minds out there that are at work finding ways in which they can wreak terror upon other nationsIt's real, and that's the reason why we have to intensify our efforts.

Secretary of Defense William Cohen at an April 1997 counterterrorism conference sponsored by former Senator Sam Nunn. Quoted from DoD News Briefing, Secretary of Defense William S. Cohen, Q&A at the Conference on Terrorism, Weapons of Mass Destruction, and U.S. Strategy, University of Georgia, Athens, Apr. 28, 1997.
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T Town Jake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #14
23. More unsubstantiated babbling...
...backed up only by horseshit links...try trotting out some real links to genuine scientific sources sometime, please.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. horseshit links T Town Jake? Please let me know which ones you refer to
Edited on Sun Jan-09-05 12:46 PM by seemslikeadream
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T Town Jake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #26
36. ROFLMAO...you're kidding, right?...
...those "links" prove nothing as regards this particular debate - how pathetic.
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. The world is flat,...the universe revolves around us,...
,...our government operates in a TRANSPARENT and ACCOUNTABLE manner.

What the hell do you demand? First-hand knowledge?
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T Town Jake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. LOL...
...verifiable proof would do, but since your :tinfoilhat: is obviously unable to do much more than send you & your compadres "vibes" about the "truth," I guess we'd be talking at cross-purposes in such ventures...(snicker)...
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. Well, are you offering contradictory evidence? NOT!!!
If this makes you FEEL uncomfortable,...why not get off this trip?

Personally, I object to someone like you attempting to "LOCK" the doors to curious and explorative individuals.

BTW: I do not now nor ever have worn :tinfoilhat:
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T Town Jake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. "BTW: I do not now nor ever have worn :tinfoilhat:"...
...ya coulda fooled me...LOL, again.
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. Mediocrity
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."

The answer to the following question is when he stops asking himself questions.... stops believing in the possible, ceases to imagine.

Editorial: WHEN IS A SCIENTIST NOT A SCIENTIST?
By Hal Fox, Editor

One of the types of scientific action that has always puzzled me has been the rejection of new scientific discoveries. Here are some examples:

1875: Gasoline in the hands of people ... would constitute a fire and explosive hazard of the first rank. ... The development of the new power may displace the use of horses, which would wreck our agriculture. Congressional Record of 1875.

1902: Flight by machines heavier than air is unpractical and insignificant, if not utterly impossible. New York Times, December 10, 1903.

1910: The popular mind often pictures gigantic flying machines speeding across the Atlantic carrying innumerable passengers in a way analogous to our modern steamships. ... It seems safe to say that such ideas are wholly visionary. William Pickering, American astronomer.

1923: There is no likelihood man can ever tap the power of the atom. The glib supposition of utilizing atomic energy when our coal has run out is a completely unscientific Utopian dream, a childish bug-a-boo. Robert Millikan, Theoretical Physicist.

1937: Thus it appears that the cyclotron cannot be made to give much higher energies than those obtained thus far. Hans Bethe, in Physical Review.

1945: The biggest fool thing we've ever done. The atom bomb will never go off and I speak as an expert on explosions. Admiral William Leahy, aide to President Roosevelt.

1999: Commenting on low-energy nuclear reactions: How stupid do you think we are? My assessment of you and your colleagues is that you are complete frauds or totally mad. There is no known physical principle that would support the kind of results that you claim your technology can accomplish, nor is there any credible argument why there should be such a principle. Name of scientist withheld in hope of a return to sanity.

As a scientist, as an inventor, as the former director of a research laboratory, as a former missile system engineer, I do not understand how any person can call himself or herself a scientist and exhibit such a closed mind to new scientific discoveries!
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T Town Jake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. As per the final sentence in your final paragraph: Me either...
...but then, I'm not the one who started this horseshit thread, after all...(snicker)...
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #49
53. Maybe not.... but for some inexplicable reason... you are drawn to it like
a moth to a flame. Perhaps your subconscious knows... what you do not.
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T Town Jake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. LOL...perhaps...but let me tell you what my...
...conscious "knows": r2 = a2 cos 2O, a > 0.
Please find the radii of gyration about 0 = 0 and 0 = pi/2 (please describe in the solution the area of a loop of the curve...thanks)

That's real "science," - not idle horseshit speculations. And right there in front of your eyes...

.

.

.

Feel free to get back to me when you have "proof" as determinant and solvable as that in such matters...anything less I consider an amusing "X-files" diversion - entertaining, to be sure, but inherently unproved.
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. Are you looking for proof regarding HAARP's military applications, or
something else entirely? I have lost track of just what your beef is. If you are looking for evidence for the military applications for HAARP, seemslikeadream blew you away even though it is right there, in front of your eyes.

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T Town Jake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #57
61. So, NO solution to the relatively simple equation I posted...
...from you, and no real answers of ANY sort, other than some kind of horseshit assertion that "seemslikeaream" somehow "blew" me "away"...(snicker)...somehow, I'm not surprised at this flaccid, weak "reply" of yours...it's par for the course, so far.
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #61
71. I would no more ask you to do this math problem than to
set up a computer network, set up a server,
troubleshoot a computer over hydraulic piece of industrial equipment, repair an air conditioning system, overhaul an engine, build a color television, oscilloscope, multimeter, fabricate a machine with welder and torch, laser align 20,000 lb. engines and transmissions, IF you weren't experienced at it. Flaunting one's knowledge at the expense of another is pretty sad. I may not know the math you do... but I know enough to get by... and that is enough for me.

Oh... have you ever raised a field of grapes? It's a very rewarding experience... not too technical, but it does require some skill.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #57
72. There are some gaffled player haters in tha house, lunchin
Scrape a lick, no diggety, sholda tha show. They just want to slow your roll, must be vexed about somethin'. :shrug:

Dap 4MoronicYears

Peace
seems
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evolvenow Donating Member (800 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #14
52. Brilliant post, seemslikeadream..THANK YOU!! Odd why people want to argue
to continue in complete ignorance. Despite massive documentation about the unclassified weaponry.

There is so much experimentation going on, all over the world.

Just because there are those who do not believe the FACTS, does not change the fact, that devastating technologies exist and are in operation.

Read up, Naysayers.
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truth2power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #52
66. I agree. It seems odd that
Edited on Sun Jan-09-05 11:01 PM by truth2power
every time someone posts anything about HAARP, there are those who seem almost to be frothing at the mouth to ridicule whatever is said, without offering any evidence to the contrary. I wonder why?

Even in the astrology threads, those who hold the view that astrology is nonsense tend not to spend a great deal of time trying to disabuse people of their notions.

Hmmm....methinks some people doth protest too much. Makes me wonder if there isn't something to it after all.

edit> to add: Seems like someone really, REALLY wants all this poking around to go away. Hmmm? :tinfoilhat:

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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #14
54. This slush fund thing... this corruption, this spending of Saudi dollars
Edited on Sun Jan-09-05 07:12 PM by 4MoronicYears
with foreign military contractors whilst 30% unemployment is the rule of the day there, reminds me of another deal gone bad in Nigeria.... I PERSONALLY know someone who worked for MWI, who had to testify to the feds... who KNEW what went down in foreign countries concerning outlandish costs for pump repairs, etc, etc. If memory serves... an official in Nigeria who was in charge of purchasing said pumps may have ended up with a new vehicle as well.....

I saw the wake that MWI left at a major pumping operation in Florida (you know who you are) and what it ended up costing the taxpayer. Not pretty, not pretty at all.... not to mention the environmental damage done by hydraulically driven pumps being used where they NEVER SHOULD HAVE BEEN PLACED... EVER.

From seemslikeadream's post....
The slush fund spent by Gardiner over 13 years from 1989 and 2002 provided a 170,000 Rolls-Royce, other luxury cars, London apartments, private air travel and accommodation in five-star hotels in Hawaii, Los Angeles, Paris and New York. Under separate arrangements, middlemen also arranged prostitutes for some dignitaries.

The largesse was extended to Saudi officials and members of the countrys large royal family who controlled the kingdoms arms procurement, the chief source of BAEs income over the past 18 years.
more
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1190953,00 ...


Posted on Tue, Jul. 30, 2002
Jeb Bush may be called in suit
BY TYLER BRIDGES

Miami Herald

>>A man suing a one-time business partner of Gov. Jeb Bush's in a Nigeria water-pump sale that went awry amid allegations of bribery wants to call Bush as a witness in the case whenever it goes to trial, an attorney confirmed Monday.<<

>>Democrats are hoping the legal case will force Bush to answer a question he has never fully addressed: What did he do to earn the $648,250 paid to him by Eller when Eller bought Bush's share of a different company, Bush-El Trading, in 1994? The Democrats have been trying to get Bush to answer this question since. They have noted that Eller co-hosted a fundraiser for Bush on June 17 in Davie.<<
more: http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/news/politics/...
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T Town Jake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
22. Don't buy a word of it...
...for starters, the only enduring legacy of Nikola Tesla is the "Tesla Coil" - as any first-year electrical engineering student would be happy to tell you.
In the second place: Tesla has been dead since 1943. Why didn't we see examples of these "wonder weapons" during the Cold War, when they would've been particularly useful to the competing powers in that contest?
In the third place: it's spelled "Nikola," not "Nichola." Thanks.
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
24. "Now, now Four Moronic Years
You are our Poster Child for 'why we need No Child Left Behind.' By the time this next generation leaves our Fundy Teaching Centers, we won't have any silly Americans poking around where they don't belong.

I mean, how in the WORLD can you say your governent, run by Our Fearless, Perfect and Most Holy Leader, would do anything to harm anyone or to harm the earth? Governments don't do stuff like that! Silly, silly person. TRUST your government. TRUST us, really!

And all your HAARP people here keep providing links: We don't need no stinking links! All we gotta do is mock you and arrogantly claim you are nuts. (Ain't Circa 2005 American Science GREAT?)

Now, shut up or we'll send you to Gitmo for tortu....er....oops....'redumication."

That is all.


Your Most Trustworthy, Altruistic and Egalitarian Government in Jeebus' Name"



sarcasm off
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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. lol
i love du. there are smart people here
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chascarrillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
27. Thank you for providing more ammo...
Thank you for providing more ammo to everyone who thinks that DU is full of kooks. Much appreciated.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. But you don't know what it is Do you, Mister Jones?


You walk into the room
With your pencil in your hand
You see somebody naked
And you say, "Who is that man?"
You try so hard
But you don't understand
Just what you'll say
When you get home

Because something is happening here
But you don't know what it is
Do you, Mister Jones?

You raise up your head
And you ask, "Is this where it is?"
And somebody points to you and says
"It's his"
And you say, "What's mine?"
And somebody else says, "Where what is?"
And you say, "Oh my God
Am I here all alone?"

Because something is happening here
But you don't know what it is
Do you, Mister Jones?

You hand in your ticket
And you go watch the geek
Who immediately walks up to you
When he hears you speak
And says, "How does it feel
To be such a freak?"
And you say, "Impossible"
As he hands you a bone

Because something is happening here
But you don't know what it is
Do you, Mister Jones?

You have many contacts
Among the lumberjacks
To get you facts
When someone attacks your imagination
But nobody has any respect
Anyway they already expect you
To just give a check
To tax-deductible charity organizations

You've been with the professors
And they've all liked your looks
With great lawyers you have
Discussed lepers and crooks
You've been through all of
F. Scott Fitzgerald's books
You're very well read
It's well known

Because something is happening here
But you don't know what it is
Do you, Mister Jones?

Well, the sword swallower, he comes up to you
And then he kneels
He crosses himself
And then he clicks his high heels
And without further notice
He asks you how it feels
And he says, "Here is your throat back
Thanks for the loan"

Because something is happening here
But you don't know what it is
Do you, Mister Jones?

Now you see this one-eyed midget
Shouting the word "NOW"
And you say, "For what reason?"
And he says, "How?"
And you say, "What does this mean?"
And he screams back, "You're a cow
Give me some milk
Or else go home"

Because something is happening here
But you don't know what it is
Do you, Mister Jones?

Well, you walk into the room
Like a camel and then you frown
You put your eyes in your pocket
And your nose on the ground
There ought to be a law
Against you comin' around
You should be made
To wear earphones

Because something is happening here
But you don't know what it is
Do you, Mister Jones?

-Dylan




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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
chascarrillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. I apologize
I apologize. I should be making substantive posts like your previous posts in the thread, like your post of nothing but "hahahahahahahahahahahaha".

Thank you for setting me straight on how to conduct discussion here.
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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. laughing at a post and suggesting a post is
Edited on Sun Jan-09-05 04:23 PM by ooglymoogly
opening up the site to ridicule are two different things. every thought that has advanced civilization has been ridiculed by a certain element of society which remains constant. laughing at a post is not an attempt to stop him/her from posting. big big dif.
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #38
47. Einstein said.....
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #27
40. Why are you so resistent to piercing a secretive government?
Are you AFRAID of being mis/judged?

Why?

The information compiled on this thread is primarily scientific and intelligent communities. Historically, only fascist/totalitarian types discounted these communities.

Maybe, you have not yet fully engaged in a passionate battle for a transparent and responsible government. Maybe, you are still clinging to a comfort zone you need,...which is fine as long as you don't condemn those who are operating outside that zone.
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truth2power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #27
69. Here we go again. *sigh*
Edited on Sun Jan-09-05 11:17 PM by truth2power
The "everyone" you are probably referring to doesn't do much in the way of "thinking", So why should we care what their opinion of DU is?

I don't think it's useful to vett all your utterances on the basis of whether those of limited intelligence might find them inconvenient.

Also, and this is just one that popped into my head: Dr. Semilweiss(sp?) ran around the streets trying to convince doctors to wash their hands after treating women in labor, so they didn't cross-infect others with childbed fever {puerperal fever) (?) They called him a kook. I think he eventually went insane. He was right, of course. Just one example that came to mind.

edit> fix subject line.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
28. "Star Wars, Star Trek and Killing Politely" by Dr. Nick Begich
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. Interesting sources for this article. US military and mainstream media.
# February 6, 1998, Brussels, Belgium, European Parliament's Foreign Affairs Subcommittee on Security and Disarmament.
# New World Vistas: Air and Space Power for the 21st Century - Ancillary Volume; Scientific Advisory Board (Air Force), Washington, D.C.; Document #19960618040; 1996; pages 89-90.
# Ibid.
# Department of Defense Directive, Policy for Non-Lethal Weapons, Office of the Assistant Secretary of Defense, Draft July 21, 1994.
# Interviews in late February by Nick Begich.
# Department of Defense Directive, Policy for Non-Lethal Weapons, Office of the Assistant Secretary of Defense, Draft July 21, 1994.
# Ibid.
# "Expert Meeting on Certain Weapon Systems and on Implementation Mechanisms in International Law", Report of the International Committee of the Red Cross, Geneva, Switzerland, May 30 - June 1, 1994. Issued July 1994.
# Chemical Weapons Convention, Article II.9(d).
# "Expert Meeting on Certain Weapon Systems and on Implementation Mechanisms in International Law", Report of the International Committee of the Red Cross, Geneva, Switzerland, May 30 - June 1, 1994. Issued July 1994.
# Discussion with Dr. Patrick Flanagan on August 2, 1995.
# "Expert Meeting on Certain Weapon Systems and on Implementation Mechanisms in International Law", Report of the International Committee of the Red Cross, Geneva, Switzerland, May 30 - June 1, 1994. Issued July 1994.
# "Non-Lethal Technologies; Military Options and Implications", Report of an Independent Task Force sponsored by the Council on Foreign Relations, Malcom H. Weiner, Chairman, released June 22, 1995.
# Ibid.
# Low-Intensity Conflict and Modern Technology, Lt Col. David J. Dean USAF, Editor, Air University Press, Center for Aerospace Doctrine, Research, and Education, Maxwell Air Force Base, Alabama, June 1986.
# Ibid.
# Low-Intensity Conflict and Modern Technology, Lt Col. David J. Dean USAF, Editor, Air University Press, Center for Aerospace Doctrine, Research, and Education, Maxwell Air Force Base, Alabama, June 1986.
# Anchorage Daily News; "Future Weapons May Avert Deaths"; by Michael Raphael.
# Office of the Assistant Secretary of Defense, Department of Defense News Briefing, Secretary of Defense William Cohen, April 28, 1997. Conference on Terrorism, Weapons of Mass Destruction, and U.S. Strategy at the Georgia Center, Mahler Auditorium, University of Georgia, Athens, Ga.
# The Wall Street Journal; "Malaysia to Battle Smog With Cyclones"; by Chen May Yee; page A19, November 13, 1997.
# Anchorage Daily News; "Report Says Iran Bought Nuclear Arms"; page A-8, April 11, 1998.
# U.S. Patent #4,959,559; "Electromagnetic or Other Directed Energy Pulse Launcher"; Inventor: Richard W. Ziolkowski; Assigned to the United States of America as represented by the U.S.Department of Energy, Washington, D.C.
# Ibid.
# Investor's Business Daily; "Star Wars: Force Not with Us, US Remains Defenseless Against Missile Attack; August 25, 1997; page 1.
# Anchorage Daily News; "Army Laser Zaps Satellite"; by Paul Richter (Los Angeles Times); October 21, 1997.
# Anchorage Daily News; "Ex-CIA Officer Faces Charges of Espionage"; by James Risen (Los Angeles Times); page A-3, April 4, 1998.
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. All the naysayers, the opponents of "free" energy, which isn't free
at all, it is just out there at a level that is incomprehensible to the average person... remember one thing... light always travels at almost exactly 186,000 miles per second... well, almost always. It is most curious to watch time honored beliefs fall one by one.

http://www.padrak.com/ine/NEN_6_9_4.html
"By passing it through an illuminated atomic cloud, they have cut the speed of a pulse of yellow laser light from 186,000 miles per second to 0.01 mile per second and plan to reduce it further to a crawl of about half an inch a second."
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AZCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #35
41. That's the speed of light in a vacuum
That has been known for a long time - how is this relevant to the concept of "free energy"?
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. Got me there.... I just wanted to puff some steam... didn't work too
well.... hey... I've got an earache that just won't quit.. ain't too coherent right now... it was... a faux paux....
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AZCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. That's okay
I understand that there's a lot I don't know, but I try to at least put the pieces together. I ask questions not to be snotty, but because I want to know - I thought there might be some connection that I didn't understand.

Good luck with your earache - a friend of mine was sick over the holidays with a nasty cold (lasted a week and a half) and she had a ringing earache the whole time. I hope it gets better soon and that you aren't sick. :)
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. Thanks AZ.... I may actually break my own rule and resort to the clinic
tomorrow if it is just as bad... I just started practicing my own medicine today... tea tree oil externally, olive oil internally, 200mg grape seed extract daily, 500mg vitamin C every two hours, and a little whiskey to kill the pain....

In John Oneill's memory...


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/knew/talk /
Dear FRONTLINE,

I watched the Man Who Knew after listening to all (or most) of the 9/11 Commission session with Thomas Pickard. I am astonished that not one of the commissioners asked Pickard: a) why the FBI, for petty bureaucratic reasons, drove their foremost expert on Al Qaeda out of the FBI during the very period in summer 2001 when threat intelligence indicators regarding Al Qaeda were rising most rapidly, and b) under oath what role Picard personally played in driving O'Neil out. To the contrary I remember at least one commissioner who complimented Pickard on his distinguished public service.
... I am saddended and angry that the 9/11 Commission has not followed the very clear leads on 9/11 responsibility that Frontline provided.

William Bowen
Salt Lake City, Utah

FRONTLINE's editors respond:

In the 9/11 Commission hearings in mid April 2004, John O'Neill's name briefly surfaced during FBI Director Robert Mueller's testimony. And O'Neill was cited by commission member Richard Ben-Veniste in his questioning of Louis Freeh. former FBI director. Here is that excerpt from the transcript.

Ben-Veniste to Freeh: " You have re-emphasized this morning the fact that the New York office of the FBI, which was led by James Calstrom and then Barry Mawn and John ONeill, particularly focused on the Al Qaeda terrorist threat. In fact, John ONeill perished in the attack on the World Trade Center on September 11th, 2001, at the hands of cowards who murdered civilian men, women and children, people who John ONeill had hunted with a determination that sometimes bordered on an obsession. Indeed, in January 2001, ONeills concerns stimulated an interagency group white paper urging greater protection of federal buildings in Lower Manhattan. And that white paper noted that, Osama bin Laden, his Al Qaeda organization and affiliated extremists group currently pose a clear and immediate threat to U.S. interests. Do you recall discussions with John Oneill about the threats from Al Qaeda or others that might occur within the United States?

Freeh: Yes, I do, and particularly in that time frame. . . .

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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #46
50. One of the most unbelievable things I have ever heard was that the
sun, some huge freaking distance from the earth, can sort of "pass gas" and power grids on earth can be knocked out. How insane is that??

Mebbe the hecklers in here can explain it.

Imagine if HAARP has the ability to steer the electrojet down towards the surface of the earth... imagine what a mess that could create...


Bertell (RLA 1986) states that one of the prime goals of HAARP is manipulation of the electrojet - the two very large rivers of direct current electricity in the ionosphere.
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AZCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #46
51. Remember to stay hydrated also
It's easy to forget because it seems so simple, but staying hydrated helps your body fight off problems as well.

Good luck cutting this off at the pass. :)
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Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
56. There is a story I read many years ago about Tesla
that relates one of his experiments in Boulder, Co.

He rigged a radio transmitter to transmit a specific frequency of 7.5 cycles per second and transmitted this frequency. Now the frequency of 7.5cps is kinda 'special' in that its transit length around the earth is pretty close to being 1 cycle length. Thus each cycle will build on the previous, much like a guitar string seems to only emit a single tone when plucked because its length resonates at the frequency of the tone of the sound corresponding to the time to transit the length of the string by the mechanical wave of the sound.

Now in addition to the earth circumference having a 'resonating' frequency of 7.5cps, there is a energy gathering mechanism. Has anybody ever blown a horn into a bonfire? If you do you will notice the sound on the other side of the bonfire will be greatly amplified because the mechanical sound waves will gather the more or less random energy of the fire's plasma, and bring it into mechanical force of the sound wave, amplifying greatly the sound. You can also witness the resonating effects in a Laser. Same principle, random energy will pump the electrons in the shell of the atoms to a higher energy state and then descend to its lower energy state when passing resonating light travels back and forth between the ends of the glass tube.

The Earth's ionosphere has huge amounts of energy, from the electrifying effects of the solar wind. It has been theorized that if a radio wave at a resonating frequency of the earth was pumped into the ionosphere, then the unfocused random energy would begin to amplify the resonating radio wave, with huge amounts of energy.

The story is, after Tesla ran the radio for a few seconds, a huge burst of energy entered the transmitter smoking everything and then went through the electric power lines back to the city power generator and burned the windings of the generator.

The city power company was kinda upset, and Tesla as a goodwill gesture, rewound the generator for the city.

I looked for the story on the Internet, but I could not find anything.

Is the story true? I don't know.
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. Don't know if the story is true.... I am sure you have seen this... but
I am sure many others haven't... imagine having this sort of intellect and then putting it to use as he did... 'course, this isn't "real" science...

and no one today is pursuing his technologies for both benevolent and destructive purposes... that simply cannot happen here in these great United States of America.

http://www.mall-usa.com/BPCS/grant_tesla.html

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Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. There is also a story of Tesla and Edison
When Tesla first came to the USA he worked for Edison in NJ. Now Edison was a smart man, don't get me wrong, but what Edison really perfected was getting other very smart people to work in his lab and more or less turn their intellectual property over to him for a wage. We see the same principle in operation in many corporation research facilities today.

Now Tesla and Edison had a very big disagreement over wages. Tesla went 'independent'. He and Edison were forever big enemies after that.

When the various municipalities were trying to decide what sort of electricity systems to build the question of direct current or alternating current came to the forefront. Edison pushed for DC, Tesla for AC because transformers could be used to step the voltage up or down thus making a for less expensive electrical distribution network. Edison liked DC because on a give voltage, DC has more effective power.

Tesla won. Thus we can credit Tesla for our current AC power distribution network. Was NYC the first large city to convert from gas lights to electric? Think so.

Tesla, was one smart man. No doubt about it. But he was also very ecentric. Today we would probably call him a nut or maybe a loony CT.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #60
64. And Edison invented the (AC) electric chair
to prove how dangerous Tesla's AC was.

http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi179.htm
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disillusioned1 Donating Member (280 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. Another Tesla Is It True?
I read where Tesla's work and papers were confiscated by the Feds immediately upon his death.
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Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #59
62. Well, one thing thats definitely true about Tesla
He invented, perfected and patented the ac electric motor. He sold the rights to manufacture and sell the ac motor to a couple of German brothers. You have heard their name, Siemens.

Tesla's ideas about the rotating electric/magnetic fields are nothing short of genius.
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Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. I have heard this story also
but it has been relegated to the bin of crazy conspiracy theory. Nobody would believe our government would take information and hide it away so that the citizens could not enjoy the benefits of that knowledge, would they?
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disillusioned1 Donating Member (280 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. Or use it for evil
Nah....damned conspiracy theorists. When will they learn? :)
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 11:07 PM
Response to Original message
67. I've yet to see *ANY* good science behind HAARP theories
This really is a waste of time for people to "fight fascism" over or other such claims.
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progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 11:10 PM
Response to Original message
68. HAARP is often suspected for that nasueating hum up here in Puget Sound
Never heard it before in my life.. don't hear it anywhere else, it is inexplicable. A horrid, droning, diesel like hum that goes for weeks and weeks non-stop. Then stops. Then weeks later starts again. No one knows what it is.. but HAARP is often suspected.
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truth2power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #68
70. Like the Kokomo Hum I read about.
Interesting. No one can explain it. At least I haven't read of any explanations.
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Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #68
73. Why not measure the frequency of the hum.
Edited on Mon Jan-10-05 09:41 AM by Jose Diablo
I bet you will find it to be very low frequency, about 7.5 cps.

Edit: Or maybe a harmonic of 7.5 cps, like 15 or 22.5. You know 2x, 3x,4x ect.
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Monkie Donating Member (675 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
74. real info for doubters - us patent office good enough?
Edited on Mon Jan-10-05 10:14 AM by Monkie
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Se...

"Method and apparatus for altering a region in the earth's atmosphere, ionosphere, and/or magnetosphere"

"This invention has a phenomenal variety of possible ramifications and potential future developments. As alluded to earlier, missile or aircraft destruction, deflection, or confusion could result, particularly when relativistic particles are employed. Also, large regions of the atmosphere could be lifted to an unexpectedly high altitude so that missiles encounter unexpected and unplanned drag forces with resultant destruction or deflection of same. Weather modification is possible by , for example, altering upper atmosphere wind patterns or altering solar absorption patterns by constructing one or more plumes of atmospheric particles which will act as a lens or focusing device. Also as alluded to earlier, molecular modifications of the atmosphere can take place so that positive environmental effects can be achieved. Besides actually changing the molecular composition of an atmospheric region, a particular molecule or molecules can be chosen for increased presence. For example, ozone, nitrogen, etc. concentrations in the atmosphere could be artificially increased. Similarly, environmental enhancement could be achieved by causing the breakup of various chemical entities such as carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, nitrous oxides, and the like. Transportation of entities can also be realized when advantage is taken of the drag effects caused by regions of the atmosphere moving up along diverging field lines. Small micron sized particles can be then transported, and, under certain circumstances and with the availability of sufficient energy, larger particles or objects could be similarly affected. Particles with desired characteristics such as tackiness, reflectivity, absorptivity, etc., can be transported for specific purposes or effects. For example, a plume of tacky particles could be established to increase the drag on a missile or satellite passing therethrough. Even plumes of plasma having substantially less charged particle density than described above will produce drag effects on missiles which will affect a lightweight (dummy) missile in a manner substantially different than a heavy (live) missile and this affect can be used to distinguish between the two types of missiles. A moving plume could also serve as a means for supplying a space station or for focusing vast amount of sunlight on selected portions of the earth. Surveys of global scope could also be realized because the earth's natural magnetic field could be significantly altered in a controlled manner by plasma beta effects resulting in, for example, improved magnetotelluric surveys. Electromagnetic pulse defenses are also possible. The earth's magnetic field could be decreased or disrupted at appropriate altitudes to modify or eliminate the magnetic field in high Compton electron generation (e.g., from high altitude nuclear bursts) regions. High intensity, well controlled electrical fields can be provided in selected locations for various purposes. For example, the plasma sheath surrounding a missile or satellite could be used as a trigger for activating such a high intensity field to destroy the missile or satellite. Further, irregularities can be created in the ionosphere which will interfere with the normal operation of various types of radar, e.g., synthetic aperture radar. The present invention can also be used to create artificial belts of trapped particles which in turn can be studied to determine the stability of such parties. Still further, plumes in accordance with the present invention can be formed to simulate and/or perform the same functions as performed by the detonation of a "heave" type nuclear device without actually having to detonate such a device. Thus it can be seen that the ramifications are numerous, far-reaching, and exceedingly varied in usefulness"

from the approved patent!!

"Put another way, in Alaska, the right type of fuel (natural gas) is naturally present in large amounts and at just the right magnetic latitudes for the most efficient practice of this invention, a truly unique combination of circumstances"

and a google search brings up http://www.haarp.alaska.edu/
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #74
75. !!! US PATENT OFFICE DESCRIBES...CHEM TRAILS??!! Reads that way...
(from your US Patent Office excerpt above-JOM)

>snip<

"Transportation of entities can also be realized when advantage is taken of the drag effects caused by regions of the atmosphere moving up along diverging field lines. Small micron sized particles can be then transported, and, under certain circumstances and with the availability of sufficient energy, larger particles or objects could be similarly affected.

Particles with desired characteristics such as tackiness, reflectivity, absorptivity, etc., can be transported for specific purposes or effects. For example, a plume of tacky particles could be established to increase the drag on a missile or satellite passing therethrough.

Even plumes of plasma having substantially less charged particle density than described above will produce drag effects on missiles which will affect a lightweight (dummy) missile in a manner substantially different than a heavy (live) missile and this affect can be used to distinguish between the two types of missiles.

A moving plume could also serve as a means for supplying a space station or for focusing vast amount of sunlight on selected portions of the earth."
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #75
76. British scientist mysteriously deported from Belarus
Edited on Mon Jan-10-05 11:55 AM by seemslikeadream
Authorities of Belarus made a decision to deport a British scientist. The Belarussian Interior Affairs Ministry rescinded the visa of the British citizen Alan Flowers. The scientist has been analyzing the consequences of the Chernobyl catastrophe for more than ten years. Spokespeople for the ministry refused to comment the reasons of such a measure.

The scientist, who specializes in radiology studies, believes his deportation is tied with his contacts with non-state organizations. The British Foreign Ministry confirmed the fact of deportation, although there were no comments released on the matter either.

Alan Flowers has probably come to conclusions, which could have provoked a negative reaction in the governments of the former Soviet Union. The British scientist particularly proposed USSR"s special services arranged artificial rains in Belarus after the nuclear disaster in 1986 not to let the wind blow the contaminated air towards Moscow.

The British scientist says many of his colleagues in Belarus support his theory, although they prefer not to talk about it in public. The reasons of such radioactive rains are not known yet, which does not allow estimating the capacity and nature of radioactive contamination.
http://english.pravda.ru/world/20/92/370/13618_brttscie...

Belarus deports Chernobyl expert

Vladimir Kuzura, an official from the Belarusian Interior Ministry, refused to explain the reasons behind the withdrawal of Dr Flowers' visa and the deportation order.

But Dr Flowers is said to have made a claim that, if proved right, would cause great embarrassment to former top Soviet officials.

According to Vera Rich, who was the Soviet correspondent of the scientific journal Nature at the time of the tragedy, many believe the then Soviet Union seeded clouds to make them rain on Belarus.

The move was aimed at preventing winds from blowing contaminated material towards Moscow, theorists say.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3943013.stm


The British scientist particularly proposed USSR"s special services arranged artificial rains in Belarus after the nuclear disaster in 1986 not to let the wind blow the contaminated air towards Moscow.

Chornobyl Fallout Brought Down on Belarus To Spare Russia?

To date, none have been willing to "go public," arguing that -- in the political climate of today's Belarus -- to give their names would not only endanger their visas (and their continuing research) but also put their informants at risk. However, the following emerged in informal discussions on the sidelines of a recent scientific conference:

One researcher, whose official brief is to monitor whether the soil of these areas can be safely brought back into cultivation, has begun collecting the reminiscences of local inhabitants as to what they remember of the days immediately after the accident. He made no attempt to "lead" his "witnesses." Amid the many purely personal incidents (weddings, May Day celebrations, etc), there were repeated reports of unusual activity of aircraft and/or rockets being fired in the vicinity. One man, the chief administrative officer of his locality, stated categorically that he had seen an aircraft with "stuff coming out of the back." Many people remembered that the rain showers that followed were "unusually heavy" and that -- unlike "normal" rainstorms in early May, were not accompanied by thunder. Challenged by colleagues that such reports were "subjective," the researcher pointed out, "These people are farmers and know about rain!" When further asked why such claims had never been made before, he pointed out that, to date "no one had bothered to ask the locals!"

A senior scientist who had been working mainly in Russia stated that what he termed an unimpeachable Moscow source who, at the time of the accident "had been in a position to know," admitted that the clouds were, indeed, brought down. People like his informant, this scientist said, "are prepared to talk in cars -- particularly Western cars!" (i.e., where there is little likelihood of "bugging").

In fact, shortly after the fall of the Soviet Union, one scientific paper was published in the West that reported -- on the basis of local claims -- that the soil had been tested for traces of silver iodide, the chemical most widely used for seeding. No such traces were found, the report said. But this is at best negative evidence. The soil samples in question were taken more than six years after the accident -- and the small amounts of silver left by seeding could well have leached out of the soil during that time. Alternatively, the Soviets might have used a different chemical for seeding.

One scientist who has worked on the Chernobyl contamination since 1992 is Dr. Alan Flowers of Kingston University (U.K.). Many of his colleagues in Belarus, he says, seem to accept as established fact that the clouds were seeded -- but again, they have never publicly admitted this. When asked -- 16 years after the event and with the Soviet officials who would have taken the decision to "seed" the cloud presumably out of office, retired, or dead -- he replied that "for a full understanding of the distribution and effects of the Chernobyl fallout, we need as much evidence as possible. What caused the rain is still an uncertainty in our knowledge about the intensity and nature of the contamination."

more
http://greennature.com/article1346.html


The population of these areas has always maintained that the rain was artificial - "seeded" on orders from the Kremlin. Soviet authorities dismissed these reports as "radiophobia" fomented by "anti-socialist elements," and said they did not have the technology to "bring down clouds" in that way (although for years, the Soviet media had claimed exactly the opposite, with circumstantial accounts of crops saved from storm damage by prophylactic "cloud seeding").

Western scientists tacitly accepted the Soviet denials - partly in the belief that no government would act so callously and also because they considered the Chornobyl-polluted area a unique "laboratory" for studying the migration of radioactive contamination in the soil and did not want to provoke the authorities into denying them visas. However, the bulk of circumstantial evidence is now causing them to think again.

To date, none have been willing to "go public," arguing that - in the political climate of today's Belarus - to give their names would not only endanger their visas (and their continuing research) but also put their informants at risk. However, the following information emerged in informal discussions on the sidelines of a recent scientific conference.

One researcher, whose official task is to monitor whether the soil of these areas can be safely brought back into cultivation, has begun collecting the reminiscences of local inhabitants as to what they remember of the days immediately after the accident. He made no attempt to lead his witnesses. Amid the many purely personal incidents (weddings, May Day celebrations, etc), there were repeated reports of unusual activity of aircraft and/or rockets being fired in the vicinity. One man, the chief administrative officer of his locality, stated categorically that he had seen an aircraft with "stuff coming out of the back." Many people remembered that the rain showers that followed were "unusually heavy" and that - unlike "normal" rainstorms in early May, were not accompanied by thunder.

more
http://www.ukrweekly.com/Archive/2002/300206.shtml

The Belarusian government has consistently tried to play down the impact of the disaster and outspoken researchers have been gagged in the past.

President Alexander Lukashenko has imposed strict controls on freedom of speech and is increasingly isolated by the west.

The deportation of Dr Flowers comes days after the closure of the countrys only non-government university.
http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=3280282


Alexander Lutsko

Sashas death is a great sadness and by it we have lost an interesting, even extraordinary, man. I am not in possession of his CV as I write, though I know he was a physicist, a Director of the Sakharov Institute, and that he had sailed the oceans as a scientific explorer.
I met Alexander Lutsko on four occasions, once when he came to my house in St Andrews, brought by Alan Flowers and Richard Demarco and subsequently at different locations in the summer of 1995 when he participated in Demarcos summer school in Combermere, Cheshire and in St Andrews, amongst other locations. Restless and animated, he conveyed a sense of impatience. The opportunity had arisen for Belarus to be free and herself. The distinctness of her culture was important to him and he was a patriot. Intellectually, though, he roved far from home as an adventurer who relished the challenge of debate and disagreement and who wanted as many of his pupils as possible to experience that exhilaration too.

He appreciated in a serious way, the importance of different perspectives and approaches to issues. Creative thinking was the means to a prosperous and a free future for Belarus. For this reason, he joined enthusiastically in any debate which saw the overlapping of ideas and cultures. He warmed to Demarcos theme of Bridging the Gap between Art and Science, between Eastern and Western Europe and, indeed, between the generations. Although he was a Scientist, he saw the value of artistic culture to the development of society, not least for the opportunity it provided for individuals to offer comment and to make contribution by means of artistic perception. The vital importance of multimedia was integral to his understanding.

Alexander Lutsko liked to describe himself as a hooligan and to witness his invitation to the highly serious ex-President of Lithuania, Vytautas Landsbergis, to become one too, was one of the great historic moments of life. Im glad it took place at St Leonards. By hooligan he understood the idea of iconoclasm in the sense of overturning unworthy shibboleths. Hooliganism encapsulated, in his view, the spirit of derring-do which feared nothing Back then to the power of creative thought which came forth from destructuring and chaos which he saw as the prerequisite of reform.
more
http://www.iseu.by/rus/memoria/lutsko/MJames.html


INTERDISCIPLINARY BIO-EDUCATIONA COMPLEX SCIENCE IN THE NEXT MILLENNIUM

Dr. Alexander Lutsko
Rector, International Sakharov College
on Radioecology
Belarus

There are two foreseeable tendencies, presently, that can play a key role in the harmonisation of future society; the issues of human habitat and the ways of improving its quality.

A new technological breakthrough is possible, if only facilitated by an interdisciplinary approach to solving environmental challenges. In this context, it is topical to start training interdisciplinary specialists. This will also be an educational challenge if we bear in mind the huge bodies of accumulated knowledge and the persistent intensity of the information flow. However, a sound alternative can be suggested for the to-know-all-about-nothing approaches, by using new educational technologies and synergistic training programmes. A new educational scheme will cost more than traditional higher education, but a steady development of civilisation can be hardly expected in the absence of adequate professionals.
more
http://www.biopolitics.gr/HTML/PUBS/VOL6/HTML/lutsko.ht...

Smuggling of plutonium poses major health threat

The smuggling of plutonium is a major threat to health, according to Commander Jasjit Singh, director of the Institute of Defence Studies and Analyses in New Delhi, India.
Commander Singh told a meeting at the House of Commons organised by Medical Action for Global Security that plutonium and other fissile materials might be used by states such as Iraq or terrorist organisations to make a bomb. But he warned that damage to health could also result from smugglers mishandling radioactive material.

Dr Frank Barnaby, a nuclear physicist and defence analyst, said: "There are currently about 400 tonnes of separated plutonium available in the world, and it takes up to 10 kg of the metal or 35 kg of plutonium oxide to make a nuclear weapon. A package the size of a box of 20 cigarettes would hold about 2 kg of plutonium metal, worth at least $2m or $3m on the black market. And to make a bomb requires only elementary nuclear physics."

This worry was greatly increased last August when police in Munich seized 350 g of plutonium that had been carried in a lead lined case hidden in the luggage of two Spaniards and a Colombian flying on a Lufthansa flight from Moscow. Between May last year and January this year there were seven cases of people being caught smuggling plutonium or uranium, and these cases are likely, said Commander Singh, to be only the tip of the iceberg. Nobody really knows the extent of the problem, who the smugglers are, or whether there are any buyers. "There is as yet no evidence of a terrorist group trying to acquire fissile material," a spokesman from the Foreign Office told the meeting, "but there is great concern in government."

The US government has been worried about this problem for some time, but the Russian government showed little interest until late last year, said Dr William Walker, senior lecturer in the science policy and research unit at the University of Sussex. The Russians became worried, said Dr Walker, because they realised that Russia is the country most threatened. Their two great fears are that the material will fall into the hands of breakaway republics and that the wide illegal availability of fissile material will lead to bad relationships with the West, causing it to reduce aid. The policy of the US and other Western governments is to help the Russians to help themselves, but the problem, said Dr Walker, will take dozens of years to solve.

Dr Alexander Lutsko from the International Sakharov Institute of Radioecology in Minsk thought that the chance of plutonium being stolen from plants in the former Soviet Union was small because many are still under military control. He was much more worried by "irresponsibility and negligence" with radiation: he cited as an example "the disposal of highly radioactive wastes by the Russian Pacific fleet all over the Pacific seashore." But, concluded Commander Singh, "the first we might know about the illegal smuggling of plutonium might be when a bomb explodes."--RICHARD SMITH, BMJ
more
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/310/6978/48...

"direct line between creative genius and insanity" yea I know what he's talkin bout there!

He was fascinated by the direct line between creative genius and insanity. In 195 he published a thesis entitled The Theory of Abnormality. He presented this at the Demarco European Art Foundation symposium at St Leonardss School in St Andrews, as his contribution. In this he suggested ways of narrowing the gaps between the logical and intuitive ways of investigating the nature of reality. In doing so he was pleased to engage in dialogue with Vytautas Landsbergis, the first democratically elected President of the independent state of Lithuania.
http://www.iseu.by/rus/memoria/lutsko/RDemarco.html


"Weather as a Force Multiplier: Owning the Weather in 2025"

A Research Paper Presented To "Air Force 2025" by Col Tamzy J. House et al:

A global, precise, real-time, robust, systematic weather-modification capability would provide war-fighting CINCs with a powerful force multiplier to achieve military objectives. Since weather will be common to all possible futures, a weather-modification capability would be universally applicable and have utility across the entire spectrum of conflict. The capability of influencing the weather even on a small scale could change it from a force degrader to a force multiplier.

...

The term weather-modification may have negative connotations for many people, civilians and military members alike. It is thus important to define the scope to be considered in this paper so that potential critics or proponents of further research have a common basis for discussion.

In the broadest sense, weather-modification can be divided into two major categories: suppression and intensification of weather patterns. In extreme cases, it might involve the creation of completely new weather patterns, attenuation or control of severe storms, or even alteration of global climate on a far-reaching and/or long-lasting scale. In the mildest and least controversial cases it may consist of inducing or suppressing precipitation, clouds, or fog for short times over a small-scale region. Other low-intensity applications might include the alteration and/or use of near space as a medium to enhance communications, disrupt active or passive sensing, or other purposes.

...

Several high-payoff capabilities that could result from the modification of the ionosphere or near space are described briefly below. It should be emphasized that this list is not comprehensive; modification of the ionosphere is an area rich with potential applications and there are also likely spin-off applications that have yet to be envisioned.
http://www.au.af.mil/au/2025/volume3/chap15/v3c15-1.htm



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AZCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #74
77. Just FYI...
The USPTO is not responsible for verifying the claims made in a patent application. There are thousands of approved patents that claim to do the impossible.
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #77
79. Yes.... I have seen a few of them... they cost about a buck three eighty
Edited on Mon Jan-10-05 03:41 PM by 4MoronicYears
to make... and have wild claims attached to them. HAARP on the other hand, has had hundreds of millions dumped into it for some "unknown" reason... the military seems to be interested in it, and it has wild claims attached to it. I'll bet the latter is more dangerous, and has more ulterior purposes attached to it.

Iraq, part of the axis of evil, was spending 1 billion on "defense" when we decided to spank them... whilst the good guys were spending 400 billion on "defense". I am sure that number is approaching 500billion as this article states. I found this (there are more gifs) at an army site... interesting stuff.... to be able to alter the weather from halfway around the world.

On Edit... the military site... wouldn't want to leave that out...
http://www.dtc.army.mil/tts/1997/proceed/abarnes/sld006...


http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0406/S00237.htm
At the crux of the U.S. directed energy program is the High-frequency Active Auroral Research Program (HAARP) operating in Gakona, Alaska. ( http://www.haarp.alaska.edu/haarp /) This ionosphere agitator is the ultimate weapon of mass destruction. While the government officially denies its military application, Dr. Arnold Barnes of Phillips Lab lectured on the military applications of HAARP at the United States Armys Developmental Test Command Symposium in 1997, where the good doctor also outlined the history of the U.S. militarys involvement in weather modification. ( http://www.dtc.army.mil/tts/1997/proceed/abarnes /)













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AZCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #79
82. Spending hundreds of millions of dollars doesn't ensure viability either
As exhibit A, I move to introduce the Ballistic Missile Defense System, currently costing 7 to 9 billion dollars annually with "no demonstrated capability".

Unfortunately the military spends a lot of our money on research that doesn't pan out. Is HAARP part of that? I don't know, but I do know that hundreds of millions of dollars is not yet "real money" to those pulling the strings.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #77
80. interesting history re the ownership of the HAARP patents:
On Nov. 3, 1993, the U.S. Air Force announced that the prime contractor on the first phase of the HAARP project was ARCO Power Technologies, Inc. (APTI). At the time the project was put out for bids, APTI was a subsidiary of Atlantic Richfield Oil Company (ARCO) and owned the patent rights to various patents pertaining to the HAARP project, such as those invented by Bernard J. Eastlund. How did a small subsidiary get the military contract for such a large project? One that was five times large than APTI's annual budget? The answer seems to lie in the patents owned at the time by APTI.

...

And the story gets more involved. After the HAARP contact was awarded to APTI, APTI was sold to E-Systems in June 1994, under undisclosed terms. That is interesting in that APTI is reported to have shown no net income since it opened in the late 1980's. E-Systems changed the name of the company to Advanced Power Technologies Incorporated (a different APTI, yet the same spelling as in the patents), and assumed control of the patents and the HAARP project. E-systems is also one of the largest intelligence contractors in the U.S. The value in this sale seems to be the patents and the HAARP contract.

In 1995, Raytheon Corporation was reported to have bought and acquired E-Systems for $2.3 Billion (Wall Street Journal, 1995). Raytheon is a very large company with several large military contacts, some of course classified. What is Raytheon doing with HAARP? The value of the HAARP program may only be found in its patents.
http://www.padrak.com/ine/HAARP97.html

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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #80
81. And the relevant APTI patents:
U.S. Patent 4686605:
Method And Apparatus For Altering A Region In The Earth's Atmosphere, Ionosphere, And/Or Magnetosphere
Inventors: Eastlund; Bernard J., Spring, TX
Assignees: APTI, Inc., Los Angeles, CA
Issued: Aug. 11, 1987
Filed: Jan. 10, 1985

U.S. Patent 5038664:
Method For Producing A Shell Of Relativistic Particles At An Altitude Above The Earth's Surface
Inventors: Eastlund; Bernard J., Spring, TX
Assignees: APTI, Inc., Washington, DC
Issued: Aug. 13, 1991
Filed: Jan. 10, 1985

U.S. Patent 4712155:
Method And Apparatus For Creating An Artificial Electron Cyclotron Heating Region Of Plasma
Inventors: Eastlund; Bernard J., Spring, TX
Ramo; Simon, Beverly Hills, CA
Assignees: APTI, Inc., Los Angeles, CA
Issued: Dec. 8, 1987
Filed: Jan. 28, 1985

U.S. Patent 5068669:
Power Beaming System
Inventors: Koert; Peter, Washington, DC
Cha; James T., Fairfax, VA
Assignees: APTI, Inc., Washington, DC
Issued: Nov. 26, 1991
Filed: Sep. 1, 1988

U.S. Patent 5218374:
Power Beaming System With Printer Circuit Radiating Elements Having Resonating Cavities
Inventors: Koert; Peter, Washington, DC
Cha; James T., Fairfax, VA
Assignees: APTI, Inc., Washington, DC
Issued: June 8, 1993
Filed: Oct. 10, 1989

U.S. Patent 5293176:
Folded Cross Grid Dipole Antenna Element
Inventors: Elliot; Paul G., Vienna, VA
Assignees: APTI, Inc., Washington, DC
Issued: Mar. 8, 1994
Filed: Nov. 18, 1991

U.S. Patent 5202689:
Lightweight Focusing Reflector For Space
Inventors: Bussard; Robert W., Manassas, VA
Wallace; Thomas H., Gainesville, FL
Assignees: APTI, Inc., Washington, DC
Issued: Apr. 13, 1993
Filed: Aug. 23, 1991

U.S. Patent 5041834:
Artificial Ionospheric Mirror Composed Of A Plasma Layer Which Can Be Tilted
Inventors: Koert; Peter, Washington, DC
Assignees: APTI, Inc., Washington, DC
Issued: Aug. 20, 1991
Filed: May. 17, 1990

U.S. Patent 4999637:
Creation Of Artificial Ionization Clouds Above The Earth
Inventors: Bass; Ronald M., Houston, TX
Assignees: APTI, Inc., Washington, DC
Issued: Mar. 12, 1991
Filed: May. 14, 1987

U.S. Patent 4954709:
High Resolution Directional Gamma Ray Detector
Inventors: Zigler; Arie, Rishon Le Zion, Israel
Eisen; Yosset, Rishon Le Zion, Israel
Assignees: APTI, Inc., Washington, DC
Issued: Sep. 4, 1990
Filed: Aug. 16, 1989

U.S. Patent 4817495:
Defense System For Discriminating Between Objects In Space
Inventors: Drobot; Adam T., Annandale, VA
Assignees: APTI, Inc., Los Angeles, CA
Issued: Apr. 4, 1989
Filed: Jul. 7, 1986

U.S. Patent 4873928:
Nuclear-Sized Explosions Without Radiation
Inventors: Lowther; Frank E., Plano, TX
Assignees: APTI, Inc., Los Angeles, CA
Issued: Oct. 17, 1989
Filed: June 15, 1987

http://www.padrak.com/ine/HAARP97.html
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AZCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #81
83. Just a suggestion
You can use the Patent Office (www.uspto.gov ) to cross-reference patent authors and also to find out what patents refer to the ones you have listed above. You might find out more about this (and more recent info) by doing that.

For example, the first patent on your list (#4686605) is referenced by twelve other patents. This might be worth looking into.
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #81
84. Nuclear-Sized Explosions Without Radiation
the radiation.... hey... why not? Sounds like a humane and innocent aspect of HAARP to me. I'm sure Hiroshima and Nagasaki would have preferred this approach over the other.
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NecessaryOnslaught Donating Member (691 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #80
85. Don't know if this has been posted yet..
But a 1996 Air Force paper seemeed very confident that "emerging technology" would allow for control of the weather by 2025.

http://www.au.af.mil/au/2025/volume3/chap15/v3c15-1.htm...
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AZCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #85
86. Let's be clear about what "weather control" means
From the article you linked:
In the broadest sense, weather-modification can be divided into two major categories: suppression and intensification of weather patterns. In extreme cases, it might involve the creation of completely new weather patterns, attenuation or control of severe storms, or even alteration of global climate on a far-reaching and/or long-lasting scale. In the mildest and least controversial cases it may consist of inducing or suppressing precipitation, clouds, or fog for short times over a small-scale region. Other low-intensity applications might include the alteration and/or use of near space as a medium to enhance communications, disrupt active or passive sensing, or other purposes. In conducting the research for this study, the broadest possible interpretation of weather-modification was initially embraced, so that the widest range of opportunities available for our military in 2025 were thoughtfully considered. However, for several reasons described below, this paper focuses primarily on localized and short-term forms of weather-modification and how these could be incorporated into war-fighting capability. The primary areas discussed include generation and dissipation of precipitation, clouds, and fog; modification of localized storm systems; and the use of the ionosphere and near space for space control and communications dominance. These applications are consistent with CJCSI 3810.01, "Meteorological and Oceanographic Operations."(13)

Extreme and controversial examples of weather modification-creation of made-to-order weather, large-scale climate modification, creation and/or control (or "steering") of severe storms, etc.-were researched as part of this study but receive only brief mention here because, in the authors' judgment, the technical obstacles preventing their application appear insurmountable within 30 years.(14) If this were not the case, such applications would have been included in this report as potential military options, despite their controversial and potentially malevolent nature and their inconsistency with standing UN agreements to which the US is a signatory.



Reference 14 (from bibliography):
14. Concern about the unintended consequences of attempting to "control" the weather is well justified. Weather is a classic example of a chaotic system (i.e., a system that never exactly repeats itself). A chaotic system is also extremely sensitive: minuscule differences in conditions greatly affect outcomes. According to Dr. Glenn James, a widely published chaos expert, technical advances may provide a means to predict when weather transitions will occur and the magnitude of the inputs required to cause those transitions; however, it will never be possible to precisely predict changes that occur as a result of our inputs. The chaotic nature of weather also limits our ability to make accurate long-range forecasts. The renowned physicist Edward Teller recently presented calculations he performed to determine the long-range weather forecasting improvement that would result from a satellite constellation providing continuous atmospheric measurements over a 1 km2 grid worldwide. Such a system, which is currently cost-prohibitive, would only improve long-range forecasts from the current five days to approximately 14 days. Clearly, there are definite physical limits to mankind's ability to control nature, but the extent of those physical limits remains an open question. Sources: G. E. James, "Chaos Theory: The Essentials for Military Applications," in ACSC Theater Air Campaign Studies Coursebook, AY96, 8 (Maxwell AFB, Ala: Air University Press, 1995), 1-64. The Teller calculations are cited in Reference 49 of this source.



There are limitations to what can be done, for better or worse. I think some degree of weather "manipulation" is possible, but because of the nonlinearity of the system (as cited above) I think actual weather control will remain out of our reach.
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #86
88. Hey... let's get back to what T Town really has a problem with....
I 'spose there is nothing to this.. if NASA is dumping big dollars into it.... nothing at all. This sort of reseach smacks of "magic" in my mind.


ABOUT BPP
NASA supported the Breakthrough Propulsion Physics Project from 1996-2002 to seek the ultimate breakthroughs in space transportation: (1) propulsion that requires no propellant mass, (2) propulsion that attains the maximum transit speeds physically possible, and (3) breakthrough methods of energy production to power such devices. Topics of interest include experiments and theories regarding the coupling of gravity and electromagnetism, the quantum vacuum, hyper fast travel, and super luminal quantum effects. Because the propulsion goals are presumably far from fruition, a special emphasis is to identify affordable, near-term, and credible research that could make measurable progress toward these propulsion goals.
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