Serious Discussion on Iraq - How much Blood and Treasure?

[Grip]

Seriously, at what point are we going to leave Iraq? We have already spent too much Blood and Treasure.

Even after the elections I don't see the insurgency going away. I think a year from now we will be in the same shape as we are now.

The Administration told us that we did not need a large force for Iraq - even though all of the Generals in the Pentagon and Powell said we would. Looks like Bush and Rummy were wrong.

Then they said we would be out in a short period of time. Wrong again.

Then it was "the war will pay for it's self." Again, WRONG!

Then we were told that it was 'just a few' insurgents, yet it now seems that the insurgents out number us 2:1. Not to mention that most of the insurgents are actually fighters while our military has only one fighter for every 10 people supporting the effort. That means our actual combat power is out numbered around 20:1.

The latest whopper is that we just need to get over the elections. OK, great. So after the elections then what? What happens when the insurgents don't back down? What happens when they continue to fight and fight harder?

At what point will the average American (not the DU) say enough is enough? As a nation how much Blood and Treasure are we willing to spend in Iraq?

[Swede]

1. There were 58,000 dead in Viet Nam.

God I hope we have learned from history.

[ladjf]

2. The administration plans to stay as long as it takes to get

total control of the oil reserves even it it means killing every single Iraqi and reducing the towns and cities to literal ruble. The people and towns are mere obstacles for the administration neo-cons.
THEY WANT THE OIL.

[alcuno]

3. Once you take an absolute position, it's hard to move away from it.

It would require admitting a mistake and most people aren't real good at it. I think it would take something cataclysmic to force many in this country to put the country first. They currently view support for the administration like support for their team. This thinking has been fostered over time and it's going to take a lot for people to turn on their team.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

4. The war will end when enough bodybags come home.

And, when Joe Sixpack realizes that he doesn't have enough dough in his wallet to buy playthings. Until then, waving the flag and shouting "Support Our Troops" will suffice to keep the public quiet.

Vietnam redux.

[Name removed]

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[lectrobyte]

5. It's about oil, and a permanent military presence there,

and oil is only going to get more expensive. Read up on peak oil.

[leftchick]

7. not until people start protesting...

even then it will take a few years and a draft before it all ends. As my dear friend saigin68 reminds me from time to time... There will have to be blood on the streets in the US before this is all over. I believe he is right.

[Grip]

8. I just don't see it happening

I think people are too fat and happy with bread and circus.

Even this war is little more than more circus. In a country of almost 300 million people only a very small portion are directly affected by the war (service members, friends and family). Most folks, if they even bother, just watch the war on TV totally disconnected from the reality of it.

The 60's are over. I don't think the current youth culture is structured that way anymore. 'Kids' (18-25) are more likely to converge at the food court of the local mall, then they are to rally in the streets. Those days are over.

I also don't see a draft in the near future. The fact remains that we have a mercenary army. Kids join for bennies and a steady check more than anything. Since the job outlook is bleak for many of them, the military is still a good job in the eyes of the average recruit. While the Guard and Reserves are having recruiting problems the Active Army is doing just fine recruiting more gris for the mill.

Sadly, I think the war will march on as it has for some time.

[LynnTheDem]

9. That is incorrect. The army's recruiting is down by 50%.

Reserves & NG are down by 30% - 50%.

Sadly, if this invasion continues, yes indeed there will be a draft.

[Grip]

10. Well, it is sort of a numbers game...

The Army is meeting it's recruiting goals. The Reserves and National Guard are not. Go to www.army.mil if you don't believe me. The facts are there.

However, since about 40% of the force is from the RC the Congress may have to raise the size of the Federal Army to meet the required force strength in Iraq. That is when the the fur will really hit the fan.

I sort of look forward to this fight hitting the floor of Congress.

Sort of...

[Karenina]

11. Y'all don't need no "discussion."

WAKE UP to what is being done in your names and FORCE A STOP TO IT.
This shit is SERIOUSLY FUBAR.

[LynnTheDem]

12. Active duty did not meet goal by 30%.

Being stationed at Ft Hood, we do get the facts here.

WSJ:

The Wall Street Journal now adds that the Reserves fell 45% Short of their goal while the gap in regular signups was 30% of the military's target.

For the second straight year, U.S. Army recruiters fell short of their goal for signing up enlistees in the first month of a new recruiting cycle. For the first 30-day period in its new recruiting year, the Army was 30% shy of its goal.

http://talkleft.com/new_archives/008379.html

[Grip]

14. So who's wrong here?

http://www.usarec.army.mil/hq/apa/goals.htm

The Army is pretty good at keeping track of it's people.

For what it's worth I 'worked' at Ft. Bragg for a few years.

[LynnTheDem]

17. For what it's worth, I wouldn't believe two words on that website.

The army is as good with propaganda as bushCartel are. There are whole bunches of things they're not saying on their website.

Come to Ft. Hood and work with me for awhile. We're in one hell of a FUBAR.

[phusion]

13. What will we do to stop it?

I think it is up to us, bearers of truth, to try to put a stop to it. As long as the general public is fed lies, they will not give a shit.

What about campus activism? At least at my college, there seems to be a lot of anti-war sentiment. Where are the nationwide, coordinated campus protests?

I don't get this disconnect between sentiment and action. Where are the organizations like the Students for a Democratic Society of the 60's?

Seems to me college campuses are a good place to start...

[Grip]

15. Good Luck

I see too much parting on campus for any serious activism.

Like I said, the 60's are over and this is not the kind of youth culture we have now.

[phusion]

16. I don't know...

What part of the country are you in?

I'm sure the same thing could have been said in the 60's about certain parts of the south, or the midwest, etc..