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Del. Cosgrove, Va. wants all miscarriage to be reported in 12 hrs.

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donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:00 AM
Original message
Del. Cosgrove, Va. wants all miscarriage to be reported in 12 hrs.

primal scream of anger ////////////////////////////////////

http://democracyforvirginia.typepad.com/democracy_for_v...

Legislative Sentry: HB1677 - Have Miscarriage, Go to Jail?

Imagine the following scenario.

You are at home alone at 8:00 on a Friday night. You are 8 weeks pregnant. You are excited about the pregnancy, but being cautious, you havent told anyone about it yet except your partner, your best friend, your parents, and your doctor.

All of a sudden, you begin to experience heavy cramping. Bleeding ensues. You realize with shock and sadness that you are probably experiencing a miscarriage. You leave a message with your doctors service. The on-call doctor calls back, offers sympathies, and advises taking pain medication or going to the hospital if the bleeding gets worse. She offers you the next available appointment for a follow-up exam - Monday at 3PM. You accept. You are overwhelmed with grief and surprised by the intensity of physical pain involved. You call your partner and ask him to come home from his boys night out, sparing him the reason over the phone. You call your best friend. She offers to come over immediately and make you cocoa. You cry.

You decide not to tell your parents yet; let them sleep through the night before delivering the terrible news. Your partner comes home and you break the sad news to him. He holds you on the couch and you both cry together. Your best friend comes over with cocoa. You cry some more. Over the next few hours, you suffer pain, cramping, and intermittent bleeding. Exhausted, you finally fall asleep in your partners arms around 4 AM. You sleep until noon, and then gird yourself for the difficult call to your parents, who were so eagerly anticipating their first grandchild.

Guess what? You just earned yourself up to 12 months in jail and a $2,500 fine. Why? Because you failed to call the cops and report your miscarriage within 12 hours.

True? Not yet. But if Delegate John Cosgrove (R-78) has his way, HB1677 will become law in a few short months, and this scenario will be reality for many women in Virginia.

Incredulous? Outraged? Read on below the jump for more information on this odious bill.
-snip-
-----------------------------


have the women of Va. had their mouths taped shut?

are the women of Va. eating mood pills and could care less?

are the women of Va. religiously insane?

are the women of Va. screaming in rage out in the streets and we are just not hearing about it?


america, the country that tortures
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
1. wtf?!!!! nt
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
2. Democracy for Virginia is on top of this....read this post.
http://www.democracyforvirginia.com /

SNIP.."Eternal Vigilance is the Price of Liberty: HR1677 - A Reply from Delegate Cosgrove
As of a minute ago, this site has received over 40,000 hits in the past 24 hours, and this story has spread to over 100 blogs and many more hundreds of message boards and email lists. The story's spread from here and DailyKos to countless infertility/miscarriage blogs, to Fark.com, to Atrios and Air America Radio and beyond. I have only begun to scratch the surface of reading the discussions that this has spawned in the blogosphere, but I'm grateful for the response and thankful for the attention that this legislation has been given...."

Thorough response from Cosgrove is here, directed to Maura at the website. She got his attention.
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
103. and Skinner wonders why DU is being singled out for surveillance
by the SCLM?

Look here at the power of the internet.
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
3. This is simply appalling. These Fundie F**k-ups have got to go
There is going to be an amazing backlash against the Fundies soon. They think they are discriminated against NOW?? Just wait.
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intheozone Donating Member (839 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
4. Unfucking believable!!!
Edited on Sat Jan-08-05 11:13 AM by intheozone
Insane law from the party that is supposed to be about smaller, less intrusive gov't. A 12-hr time limit??? How the hell does one establish the exact "time" the miscarriage happened in order to know when the fucking time limit starts to run? If I were in this position, I absolutely would not report to any law enforcement!!! Fuck them, it is none of their damn business and let them worry about how the hell they plan to investigate and enforce compliance with such a stupid, unconstitutional law!!

edit to correct spelling
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peacebird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. my husband gave me the PERFECT solution to this
Edited on Sat Jan-08-05 11:23 AM by peacebird
IF THIS PASSES then every woman in Virginia who has menstrual periods should call the police to report a possible miscarriage whenever her period arrives. DROWN the police non-emergency lines with good citizens calling to report possible miscarriages. i mean, you COULD have been pregnant assuming you had sex - right?
and because the fundies believe in immaculate conception - perhaps even if she didn't have sex that month, who knows - maybe God has decided on a second coming?
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. My suggestion was to send
all used feminine hygiene products directly to Mr. Cosgrove so that he could inspect them personally for all those "products of conception."

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gauguin57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #6
13. Warpy, you rock!
What a GREAT idea!

And we don't even have to wait for our periods to start ... we can dip tampons and pads in reddish-brown paint, box them up and send them to The Delegate. Let him "sort it all out"!

With a return address of Ubleeda Lott, 111 Kotex Lane, Crampton, Maine.

This Cosgrove guy needs to get a life. And a conscience. And a brain.
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. I like both ideas
:thumbsup:
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #13
41. These are great!
Edited on Sat Jan-08-05 06:23 PM by Dr_eldritch
What about this?
Does anyone have some legal insight?

I'm not a lawyer, but unless I'm mistaken police reports are publicly available unless sealed.

I can't imagine too many women would want such a thing to become public knowledge without their consent.

This bill would preclude women from deciding who could and could not know about their misfortune.
Seems unconstitutional.

In my professional opinion... this bill is a crock of shit.

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Ilsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #13
47. These are excellent ideas, but they might send the police after
you for sending a potentially dangerous bodily fluid through the mail. I love the idea of sending the tampons, pads etc to him. We could mix some egg white onto some of them and say they might be the products of conception. That's what it sometimes looks like, when you have a miscarriage.
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alphafemale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #6
33. Fantastic Idea! ...and let them "age" nicely first
...to the peak of potent pungency
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Stargazer09 Donating Member (625 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #6
38. Sounds like a good plan to me! (n/t)
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RadicalMom Donating Member (734 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #6
51. I didn't think I could laugh about this, but...
I just got this picture in my head of the scene from "Miracle on 34th Street," where the post office dumps endless bags of Santa Clause letters on the judges desk. Think of it, millions of used or abused mentstrual products and countless bags of conception byproducts dumped upon this guy. Oh, give me a pieceof him, the ignorant f**k!
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ChairOne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 03:50 AM
Response to Reply #6
74. That's perfect. Abso-fucking-lutely perfect! /eom
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. good idea
in fact bring in the evidence and let the crime labs sort it out.

Now get back in your burkha.
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outrage Donating Member (74 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #5
27. The perfect solution indeed...
IF THIS PASSES then every woman in Virginia who has menstrual periods should call the police to report a possible miscarriage whenever her period arrives. DROWN the police non-emergency lines with good citizens calling to report possible miscarriages.




Capital idea. I know the predominately male police department will enjoy getting those calls. Good times.

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BlackCoffeeSound Donating Member (50 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #5
31. that's hilarious
Oh that's nice! My wife and I cracked up about that one! This is hilarious but still outrageous at the same time. This sounds like a Phil Hendrie Show kind of deal. Are these clowns going to want to SEE the Fetus!? CLASS ONE!?

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feistydem Donating Member (994 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #5
87. Even better... call COSGROVE!
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #5
100. Absolutely! Overwhelm the retrograde bastards with calls of miscarriages
After all, it IS a miscarriage of justice, if nothing else.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
19. Indeed, indeed. Great idea. nt
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
7. Simply unbelieveable
even for the Virginia Republican party.
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. How would they enforce it?
Oh god are they going to search the sewer lines. Yeah that is Republican shrinking the government so it can search in your uterus.
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KayLaw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #9
25. Doctors, I guess
Edited on Sat Jan-08-05 04:19 PM by KayLaw
They would be required to report all such cases, just as they are suspected child abuse.

I guess its just the Republican way. They want a big government that watches and controls every move they, and we, make.
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gaia_gardener Donating Member (333 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #25
58. But so many of us don't go to the
doctor until we're 8-10 weeks. With my second, I was waiting for an insurance change and didn't go until I was 13 weeks. If I had had a miscarriage, no one would have known but me and my husband.

I guess they could sort trash and look for positive pregnancy tests (or make pregnancy tests a controlled item and require you to send the used one to law enforcement). Other than that, until a woman goes to the OB, they have no idea if she is pg or not.
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Kber Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #9
99. Doctors are already required to collect and report stats
but do so in a way to protect the identity of the patient.

States have an interest in this information and have used it to make the case for banning DDT or other dangereous chemicals, to track general health trends, etc.

But understand, NO PERSONAL DATA is collected or stored - it's all just numbers and stats. To attach a name to the case would probably violate Federal Law insuring medical privacy.

This clown is trying to make an end-run around the Medical Privacy laws (and as an HR person, I can tell you Privacy Laws exist, are extensive, and carry heavy penalties for breaking them).

I agree with previous posters; the law is probably unconstitutional.
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Loki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
8. Ladies
Wake the Fuck Up! This kind of cretinism makes me want to lose control. My fuse is just about gone.
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peacebird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. looks like the uproar shut Cosgrove down!
He reworded the bill to only include LIVE BIRTH,
his words "However, after discussing the bill again with our legislative services lawyers, I have decided to include language that will define the bill to apply only to those babies that are claimed to have been stillborn and that are abandoned as stated above.

I would never inflict the type of emotional torture on a woman who has suffered such a traumatic event as a miscarriage by making her notify authorities of her loss. I would also never impose criminal sanctions on a woman who has gone through this loss."


one small victory for the eternally vigilent bloggers.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #11
62. He's still an asshole
"I would also never impose criminal sanctions on a woman who has gone through this loss." Uh . . . what the hell was your legislation, then? You total dipwad! "Oh, wait, I could lose re-election because of this, so I'll just lie and try to act all concerned . . . "
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
12. My wife's response was appropriate
Cut his dick off.
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gauguin57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
15. AND, the women are supposed to answer these questions with the report ...
From the linked article above ... the info needed in the report. ANYTHING ELSE you f***ers want to know?

"... The report requires the following items for spontaneous fetal deaths:

place of occurrence

usual residence of patient (mother)

full maiden name of patient

medical record number and social security number of patient

Hispanic origin, if any, and race of patient

age of patient

education of patient

sex of fetus

patient married to father

previous deliveries to patient

single or plural delivery and order of plural delivery

date of delivery

date of last normal menses and physician's estimate of gestation

weight of fetus in grams

month of pregnancy care began (sic)

number of prenatal visits

when fetus died

congenital malformations, if any

events of labor and delivery

medical history for this pregnancy

other history for this pregnancy

obstetric procedures and method of delivery

autopsy

medical certification f cause of spontaneous fetal death

signature of attending physician or medical examiner including title, address and date signed
method of disposal of fetus

signature and address of funeral director or hospital representative

date received by registrar

registrar's signature

registration area and report numbers.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. "Hispanic origin, if any, and race of patient"
Is that seriously in there? How effing racist is that?
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Lone_Wolf_Moderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #20
50. Really effing racist.
If it wasn't so vile, I'd be almost impressed that he had the balls to actually put that in there. Wait, no I wouldn't. I'd still be disgusted.
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For PaisAn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #15
93. They can just go fuck themselves
They need a wheel barrel to carry the enormous pair they have. I wouldn't answer a single one of those questions.
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China_cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
16. The following is the reply I received from Cosgrove
this morning. In a reply, I pointed out to him that VA law ALREADY defines fetal death as including the 'product of conception regardless of gestational age' and that if the language is not radically changed, he will continue to be on the shitty end of the stick about it.

Hello:

I am Delegate Cosgrove and I wish to respond to the allegations that have been made by those who have emailed and called my office. The intent of House Bill 1677 is to require the notification of authorities of a delivery of a baby that is dead and the mother has not been attended by a medical professional. This bill was requested by the Chesapeake Police Department in its legislative package due to instances of full term babies who were abandoned shortly after birth. These poor children died horrible deaths and all that the person responsible could be charged with is the improper disposal of a human body.

The requirement for twelve hours comes from the method that a coroner would use to determine if the child had been born alive or dead. After twelve hours, it becomes next to impossible to determine if the child was alive due to decomposition gasses that build up in the body.

My bill in no way intends that a woman who suffers a miscarriage should be charged for not notifying authorities. The bill in no way mentions miscarriages, only deliveries. After discussing the bill again with our legislative services lawyers, I will include language that will define the bill to apply only to those babies that are abandoned as stated above.

I would never inflict this type of emotional torture on a woman who has suffered such a traumatic event as a miscarriage, and I am confident that the General Assembly of Virginia would also not pass such a terrible imposition on a woman.

I hope that you will understand the original intent of this bill. This bill has nothing to do with abortion, contraception and especially miscarriages. If you were alarmed by this bill or by the websites, I am sorry. I hope that this will explain the concept and intent of this bill.

Sincerely,

John A. Cosgrove
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #16
29. It sounds to me like an instance of good intentions gone awry
This bill was requested by the Chesapeake Police Department in its legislative package due to instances of full term babies who were abandoned shortly after birth. These poor children died horrible deaths and all that the person responsible could be charged with is the improper disposal of a human body.

I cannot jump on the bash Cosgrove bandwagon if the intent was honorable and ended up being poorly worded. If the CPD did in fact request this in its legislative package, then let's step back for a moment and look at it from their perspective. Has any of us come upon an abandoned newborn, now dead, in a dumpster? Put yourself in their shoes and imagine their helpless rage unless there is some kind of law to go after women -- and I will add their partners, too -- who would deliberately and callously inflict such a death upon a newborn.


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China_cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. The wording is very subtle
and does not bother to say anything about VA law and how it is written now.

His bill calls for the reportage of FETAL DEATH. VA law defines fetal death as the expulsion of "the product of conception, regardless of the age of gestation". So yes, unless he seriously rewords it, this bill WILL call for the reporting of any and all miscarriages because right now it does not differentiate between a 3 week embroyo and a 9 month stillborn.

Also, if you look at it closely, that list of things that needs to be included in the report are thing that doctors are ALREADY REQUIRED to report. It is not something new or even expanded reportage, just now requires the woman to have the knowledge of and report to police.

It is another attack on women and on any rights we may think we deserve to mark us fully human.

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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #32
43. Virginia law should therefore be rewritten as it defines "fetal death."
I did look at the list and considered the things that women are required to report as being overly intrusive, especially the "Hispanic" reference. Are they implying that Hispanics are more prone to stillborns or to abandoning newborns?

I resist any governance of private matters which adds to the growing database on us as citizens, whether male or female. Unfortunately, women do indeed bear the brunt of intrusion of privacy and specifically in the realm of our reproductive rights.

At the very least, though, let's hope this particular issue is resolved wherein "fetal death" becomes much more limited in scope and in such a manner as it does justice to the abandoned newborns who die, those newborns for whom the Chesapeake Police Department are looking to find some justice. I am still greatly concerned about that factor and it should be addressed without violating the rights of women and/or their partners.
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #43
52. Don't tall for this sad story about the motivation for this bill
Edited on Sat Jan-08-05 07:45 PM by Cheswick2.0
First of all how many dumpster babies are there in VA? Does that number justify the invasion of privacy of all women required by this type of legislation?

This guy belongs to one of the most conservative fundamentalist Baptist denomination in the country. This bill is about abortion and the need to monitor the wombs of women to make sure they are not getting away with evil. I'll bet the police never requested this legislation.

To solve the problem of finding babies in dumpsters they can do two things. They can make abortion legal and easy to obtain. They can make laws that women can annonymously drop off their babies to the police to hospitals, so that a desparate teen ager doesn't feel that dumping a dead baby in a dumpster is her only option.

Straight men rape and otherwise molest young girls way more often than girls dump babies in dumpsters. Where is the legislation demanding men wear restrictive undergarments?
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For PaisAn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #52
94. That's exactly what I think this is really about...
"This bill is about abortion and the need to monitor the wombs of women to make sure they are not getting away with evil. I'll bet the police never requested this legislation."
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mtnester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #94
96. This is how they get the list of those who had an abortion
Edited on Sun Jan-09-05 04:08 PM by mtnester
I mean think about it, abortion can be placed in the same category as a miscarriage if this wording stands. If clinics are not reporting "fetal death" they are in violation of the law.

Subtle? I think not. Deliberate sneaky, sly attempt toward revoking a woman's right to chose? You betcha.
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #43
55. I certainly agree with you about justice
for abandoned newborns, and I can't imagine how it would feel to be a policeman and discover something like that. But the problem is that women who give birth without medical attendance aren't likely to report it if the baby is stillborn. And if they're planning on abandoning the baby, they sure as hell aren't going to report it, either. So, I really don't see where this bill, even if it is reworded to mean only actual births and not all miscarriages, would help in stopping the abandonment of newborns or in getting justice for them.
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Bunny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #55
110. According to Cosgrove, right now they can only prosecute the mother of a
dumpster baby for improper disposal of a corpse, or something like that. If they pass his law, they will be able to prosecute the mother for killing the fetus/neonate. At least I think that's what his letter said.
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Ilsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #29
48. Texas has a law that helps prevent dumpster babies, and it doesn't
in any way resemble this invasive piece of shit legislation. We have a law in which a new mother can bring her newborn to a hospital or fire dept (and maybe a few other places), and leave the baby without identifying herself. She will not be picked up and charged with abandonment.
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proudbluestater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #48
67. Ilsa, Michigan has that same law. Perfect solution in my mind.
If it's all about saving the baby, that's the way to do it. Let the woman drop the baby off at a safe, warm place where he/she will be cared for. Don't attempt to criminilize a woman for not being able to care for the baby. With abortions laws becoming more restrictive, there has to be some alternative. And that alternative is NOT what this jerkoff Cosgrove proposes. He's not all about the baby at all. He's about controlling women.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 05:38 AM
Response to Reply #29
75. Thing is,
this is the punish mode again. Yes, some of these people who abandon babies are monsters, most are terrified children who conceived. Terrified being the operative word, they aren't able to think, they don't think, they are just trying to make the problem go away. Badly, I'll admit. But the solution, IMHO, is to create programs like we had in, of all places, San Antonio, TX where a mother could come to the emergency rooms anywhere in the city and leave their newborn baby or even few day old baby, no questions asked and no legal danger to the mother. It was heavily advertised in English and Spanish (we have a huge Hispanic population in SA). It made a very significant impact in the abandoned baby problem.

Why can't we work to solve the problem instead of punishing it after the fact?
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China_cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #29
84.  I cannot jump on the bash Cosgrove bandwagon if the intent was honorable
Evidently the email was a sham.

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?051+ful+HB1... is the link to follow the changing in wording of this bill.

So far the ONLY CHANGES have been to substitute numerals for written out numbers and change the word 'mother' to woman. Oh, and changing the word 'this' before Commonwealth to 'the'.

But NOT ONE WORD of the original proposal to require women to report a 'fetal death' within 12 hours has been changed. NOT ONE WORD. As it remains, fetal death still covers a 3 week zygote as well as a 9 month stillbirth.

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Liberty Belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
17. Outrageous. I forwarded to my sister-in-law in VA.
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #17
42. Tell here for me that if men in VA don't want to register their guns
how can they expect women to register their wombs?
Hell why don't they just give monthly pregnancy tests to all the women in the state?
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #42
57. Shhhh!!!!
Don't be giving them any ideas, they may just require that next! I wouldn't put anything past these people at this point.
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Blue State Blues Donating Member (575 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
18. The implications are unbelievable.
This guy really, really hates women.
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Borgnine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
21. I'm ashamed to live in this state.
The stuff that's been proposed here in the last few months... good lord.
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Contact information for Del.John Cosgrove (Chesapeake)
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Borgnine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Thanks.
I'll be sure to give this pig a piece of my mind.
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NEOBuckeye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
24. What the Hell is with these damned Conservatives???
I just don't get this "sacred fetus" impetus that these men (and some women) on the Right have. Why are they so damn worried about tracking other people's babies? Why does this matter so much to these people???

Conservatives -- particularly fundamentalist, right-wing Christians -- go crazy at the very thought of abortion, surgical, or now apparently, even natural. And yet once the child is born, they couldn't give a damn about his or her future will be like, whether or not they'll be taken care of by a supportive family, be able to afford college, or even be able to survive long in a polluted, pillaged and post-petroleum landscape. :eyes:

I don't get it. :shrug:
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outrage Donating Member (74 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. I'll tell you what's wrong with the fundies...
I just don't get this "sacred fetus" impetus that these men (and some women) on the Right have. Why are they so damn worried about tracking other people's babies? Why does this matter so much to these people???




I get it. They want to control women. Taking away their reproductive freedom is one major way to do that. Go poke around at any fundie site, and you'll see how they believe that God is the head of man and man is the head of woman. Woman's place is in the home cooking, cleaning, catering to man and having as many babies as God sees fit. Birth control and abortion are an attack on the sacred family unit to these people.

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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 05:45 AM
Response to Reply #24
76. That's because you are confused about their motivation
I thought for years that it was unfathomable that the right wing would be so obsessed about fetuses rights, but not give a damn about children's rights or human rights or prisoner's rights (God, they consider the right to kill prisoners damn near sacred). Then somebody pointed out something. This isn't about protecting the babies, it's about controlling the women.

That made it easier to understand because it all falls under the despicable mode now.

Now answering why these fundamentalist "Christians" are so damn evil, that's a whole other can of worms.
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outrage Donating Member (74 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
26. RE: "Del. Cosgrove, Va. wants all miscarriage to be reported in 12 hrs."
DUDE!! These fanatics are in-fucking-credible. Sad thing is, this is probably the tip of the iceberg. God only knows what other talibanesque moves they have up their sleeves.
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El Fuego Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
30. It's more "circle the wagons" legislation to outlaw abortion.
They're trying to thoroughly codify into law that any pregnancy termination is murder.

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Stargazer09 Donating Member (625 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
34. If the women of Virginia are not angry about this...
...they must not know about it.

As someone who has had multiple miscarriages (9), I would be absolutely outraged if I had to report them to some stranger at the police department!

What is this country coming to? Who gives this person the right to do this?

Things like this make me seriously wonder why I'm putting my life on the line to defend America.
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
35. Virgina's House of Delegates is definitely "Marxist"
... not "Karl Marx Marxist" but "Groucho-Harpo-Chico Marx Marxist."

I won't ask "Is this dude for real" - his bio says he is a fundie, and as my dad used to say about most elected officials

    "Fools' names and fools' faces are oft seen in public places"
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AngryOldDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
36. If I lived in Virginia....
...I would be prime jail material.

The above scenario was pretty close to what I experienced in my first miscarriage back in 1997.

Miscarriage is about the most misunderstood trauma a woman can ever face. She suffers alone. No one truly understands what it is like to go through one, because there is no body to bury, no body for anyone else to mourn. It is a unique grief. You basically go through it all by yourself, even if you are blessed with family who try to understand. I did not have any of that, and I can imagine that I am not alone.

To compound that grief by things like this bill is unconscionable, inhumane, and ultimately unspeakable. Do we have no heart or soul in this country anymore???
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Misunderestimator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
37. Primal scream of anger indeed!
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
39. Some information I found out about this guy Cosgrove
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Ilsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
40. I've been posting this plus a link to the Virginia Assembly's site
where you can look up the legislation if someone doesn't trust the site.

I keep wondering when the RWer's are going to require a microchip to be placed in our uterus's and ovaries so they can:
(1)keep a count of how many eggs get by without turning into people;
(2)keep better track of when our next periods are due;
(3)decide when to impregnate us; etc.

Sound like The Handmaid's Tale yet, anyone?
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. Why not just give women monthly pregnancy tests
Edited on Sat Jan-08-05 06:45 PM by Cheswick2.0
then track those who are pregnant to make sure they don't abort?
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Ilsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. I'm surprised they don't monitor this at restaurants:
Special toilet, a woman has to pee into it and it will deliver a pregnancy test result to the waiter so the waiter can decide whether to serve a woman an alcoholic drink.
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Hebegirl Donating Member (41 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #40
68. Out of My Womb
I hope I reach menopause before they mandate pregnancy. They don't give a rat's ass about the real circumstances of peoples' lives. It is all about control and enforcement of their twisted, sick, racist patriarchal cosmology
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Ilsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:47 PM
Response to Original message
45. I want all men to have to report their episodes of masturbation
within twelve hours. Hey, they are spilling sperm! Precious sperm!
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Lone_Wolf_Moderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
49. This man needs to be locked up. He's an embarassment to my gender.
There is no conceivable benefit that this totalitarian bill could provide. This is the most eggregious violation of the privacy rights of women, that I've ever seen. How in the Hell can bills like this even get this close to being passed? What the Hell are they doing in Virginia? How do this advance the pro-life cause? How does violating the dignity, privacy, and sanctity of the mother, and submitting the unborn child to the scrutiny of law enforcement?
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Nobody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #49
80. He's an embarrassment to my species
Should we rename Virginia to Vagina since they seem to be obsessed with keeping track of everything that goes in or comes out of one?

Del Cosgrove should be deluged with used tampons and sanitary napkins as suggested upthread. Particularly if you have extremely heavy periods that could appear to be miscarriages. It would be worth the postage.
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Lone_Wolf_Moderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #80
92. I saw that suggestion. Sounds great.
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XanaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 08:05 PM
Response to Original message
53. Dear "Delegate" Cosgrove:
Edited on Sat Jan-08-05 08:07 PM by XanaDUer
(You maniacal asshole)

I currently have a low-paying job wherein I have to pay for my own health insurance.

Guess what my friendly neighborhood insurance agent said right after I signed my policy?

"You know that this does not cover pregnancies."

Yes, Delgate Cosgrove. Our fetus-family-friendly country has policies that DO NOT COVER ANY ASPECT OF PREGNANCY, PRENATAL CARE, DELIVERY, OR COMPLICATIONS.

And this is a well-known, national insurance company, and I can barely afford a single person policy.

So, does this mean those who do not get what you and your fetus fanatics deem proper prenatal care also have other charges dumped on them? Like, failure to see a doctor x amounts of time per pregnancy?

Does it also mean that you are going to provide prenatal, health, and affordable, comprehensive health insurance for all women who could potentially get pregnant in the State of Virginia?

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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 08:29 PM
Response to Original message
54. In a weird sort of way,
Edited on Sat Jan-08-05 09:08 PM by tblue37
I would almost like to see this bill pass and for the fundies to try enforcing it. Virginia is a red state. Can you imagine all those R-voting women finding themselves having to report every miscarriage, or getting impisoned and fined when they don't?

Can you imagine the whole thing just generally. If it passes, it will be for the same reason Cosgrove came up with it--not just to please anti-choicers, though that is an important reason, of course. A lot of it is ignorance, pure and simple. Obviously this guy doesn't have a clue. He doesn't know that the sex of a fetus is indeterminate for the first 14 weeks. He doesn't understand what an early miscarriage looks like. (I have seen a couple. They look a lot like clotty, heavy periods). He doesn't understand what requiring one to weigh the "products of conception" would entail.

By the way, who has a scale to weigh things in grams? I can think of two sorts of people: lab scientists and, um, drug dealers.

This sort of bizarre law is a Republican specialty. People need to see how they act when they have this much power.
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SarahB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
56. Fundie F*cking Freaks!
My miscarriage was one of the painful things I've ever had to go through. It broke my heart (probably set me on a really lousy course in life because of it as well).

Yet, a woman is a criminal if she doesn't report it to government authorities. We really aren't humans to these people! Just baby factories. :(
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 08:41 PM
Response to Original message
59. Deleted accidental duplicate post.
Edited on Sat Jan-08-05 09:09 PM by tblue37
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:07 PM
Response to Original message
60. Wouldn't most women who thought they were having a

miscarriage go to the hospital? I know I would. I've never heard of a doctor telling a woman who seemed to be miscarrying to come for an appointment three days later. Perhaps some do, but my experience was that they say "I'll meet you at the emergency room." Other women I know were also told to go to the emergency room right away. An "incomplete" miscarriage can lead to serious infection. An ectopic pregnancy mistakenly thought to be a miscarriage can kill the mother. (I realize lack of medical insurance is a problem for many Americans but even they seek care in emergencies and hospitals are required to provide it.)

My point is that if women seek medical care, the caregiver would do the legal reporting of the miscarriage, and reporting would not be the woman's responsibility.
Has Virginia been experiencing a large number of miscarriage that occur without benefit of medical care? Is the bill aimed at making sure women get medical care and don't get infections or die from not treating ectopic pregnancies? Or are there
illegal abortion clinics operating in Virginia? What is the story behind the bill?
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. Contact Delegate Cosgrove
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Nobody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #61
82. Sent an email
In it, I respectfully suggested that he solve the problem behind the problem: lack of affordable health care coverage.
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #60
64. Even an early miscarriage
can lead to infection if anything is left in there, so it is a good idea to see a doctor if you suspect you've had a miscarriage.

But to make it a law with criminal penalties is absolutely insane.

Many women have early miscarriages without even having been aware they are pregnant. Sometimes, especially if they are young, they don't even know for sure that is what happened.

My sister had an early miscarriage in her teens. She hadn't realized she was pregnant until it happened.

A young friend of mine who was trying to get pregnant brought over some, um, stuff wrapped in a paper towel one day and asked me if I would check it for her, because she thought it might be a miscarriage, but she wasn't sure. (I am sort of an older woman/counselor to many young women.) Yep, it was definitely a miscarriage.

My point is that during an early miscarriage a woman might not "seem to be miscarrying" and call a doctor. She might just go to the bathroom with cramps and then find something in her toilet, which is what happened to my sister.

Or she might wake up with cramps one morning and then find something in her underwear, which is what happened to my friend.

And even if she knows she is miscarrying, if she doesn't have insurance or money or a decent job, she is not likely to deliberately incur emergency room expenses. I know how it is. I hesitated to go to the emergency room this summer when my right arm became paralyzed. I called around and waited for someone to give me a ride, even after my doctor's nurse told me I might be having a stroke and to hurry to the emergency room, because I knew I could not afford my patient's share of the cost of an ambulance. And I have fairly decent insurance! But even without the ambulance cost (I didnt call one), the emergency room visit and the various tests they did then and over the next two weeks ended up costing me about $1000 (which is about how much money I make each month!). The patients share of medical costs goes up all the time, even with insurance.

I did have a mild stroke, but even knowing that was probably what was happening to me I was afraid to call an ambulance, because I knew I couldnt afford it. It was an hour and a half after it started before I found someone to drive me to the emergency room.

Now, six months later, I am still paying off the costs I incurred because of this stroke. A thousand dollars might seem insignificant to some people, but for people like me, it is a lot more than we can afford.

I can certainly understand why a woman with little money and no insurance might not bother to go to the hospital during an early miscarriage, or even make a doctors appointment for a checkup afterward. My young friend was reluctant when I told her she needed to have a doctor check to make sure nothing was left inside for an infectionbecause she felt fine, the miscarriage was over, and she had no insurance and little money. And my sister, who told me about her miscarriage several months after it happened, never did see a doctor about it at all.
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XanaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #60
65. Bad things can happen if you don't get checked
out.

Soemtimes the entire contents are not expelled and an infection can occur.

Fortunately, in most cases if the pregnancy aborts early on, the woman does not even realize it and seems to have a heavier menstrual period than normal, and will be fine.

I would love to hear the story behind this bill.

I read the page the links connect to, but I am still not sure what this man's agenda is.

I would hope it is to protect women and children, but ...

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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 06:04 AM
Response to Reply #65
78. Bad outcomes are actually quite rare
Just like with pregnancy. It was the doctors who convinced women that it was otherwise. Nowadays, women believe it is dangerous to deliver their babies anywhere but in a hospital when, for most of them, the most dangerous thing will do is go to the hospital to deliver their babies. Great marketing and continuous repetition of the possibility of danger has worked. The doctors have a lock on the American women.

No I'm not a home birth weirdo freak (though neither are they who believe fervently in home birth) I'm a nurse, a labor and delivery nurse to be exact. I've seen what the doctors have done and continue to do to women from the inside out. It's amazing and shocking and sometimes even sickening. They hurt as many, possibly more, than they help.

This is a Kool-aide that even reasonable minded people have drunk.
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XanaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #78
85. I'm talking about not getting checked
Edited on Sun Jan-09-05 11:29 AM by XanaDUer
about a spontaneous abortion.

There are times when there are negative side effects.

PS-I work in healthcare, and know what can happen.

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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 02:39 AM
Response to Reply #78
107. My daughter's baby had the cord around his neck during labor
I am eternally grateful she went to the hospital as soon as she knew she was in labor, because they soon noticed the baby was in distress from his cord being wrapped tightly around his neck. My daughter ended up having an emergency C-section. Aside from being a little blue at birth he was perfect, but it was pretty scary. That was 2 months ago.

My cousin should never have opted for a home delivery for her second child; they both could have died and left behind a traumatized midwife. Charitably, I think it was wishful thinking on my cousin's part that she concealed information about her first birth experience because she so longed to have a "natural" experience. She and her now-18 year old daughter are extremely lucky the ambulance came as fast as it did after her uterus split.

This country absolutely has to do better by women, infants, and children's medical care. My generation pioneered the return to more natural birth experiences, and practicing the LaMaze technique allowed me to experience something my mother never did: being fully conscious for the arrival of my children. I wish I could have had a midwife at the hospital, but they were illegal in my state at that time.

Knowing my mother's obstetrical history made me very aware that sometimes things can go disastrously awry. She had two miscarriages and one full term stillbirth, and she hemmorhaged badly during her miscarriages, one time almost dying from loss of blood.

Other women I know who have miscarried in their first trimester have not been themselves in danger, but they have felt a lot of grief and loneliness. Often they find that the only people who truly understand this grief are other women who have had miscarriages. It's a real wound.

The very idea that someone in authority could be so ignorant -- so unbelievably ignorant and arrogant -- as to sit in judgment on these women and try to criminalize them is breathtaking. I have read the Delegate's response, and I believe he is sincere and means no harm. But it is quite possible to be sincerely wrong and to cause great harm out of ignorance.

Eternal vigilance indeed.

Hekate
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 04:41 AM
Response to Reply #107
108. Yes things can go wrong
but they don't go wrong anywhere near as much as the doctors would like you to think they do. As far as the cord around the neck, well, about 25% of all babies come out with the cord wrapped around their neck, sometimes twice and once I even saw it wrapped four times. Because people are so wigged about the cord being wrapped around the neck, we generally just quietly pull it over the baby's head before delivering the rest of the baby.

With regards to the dangers of having babies, the public has been duped, though there are plenty of times when the hospital is the right place for a woman to deliver and while there are plenty of times when going to a hospital during a miscarriage is the right choice, it is by no means the majority.

Since I work in a tertiary care center, I see a lot of women who wouldn't have survived without being in the hospital. I also see substantially more women who end up with huge amounts of unnecessary trauma and surgery because the doctors don't trust labor (and because these women trust the doctors, they no longer trust labor either)and despite their training to the contrary, use any heart deceleration (which they watch much too assiduously since the horrible advent of continuous monitoring)as an excuse to cut out the baby, thereby justifying their existence, but at what cost?

Many a woman who leaves our hospital with C/S scar also leaves with the story that their child had the cord wrapped around the neck and that we saved their baby's life. For the most part, that is complete and utter bullshit. It is sadly far too rare that you will hear anyone in the know saying that about the Emperor's surgery.

Why do I stay in a system I know to be corrupt? Perhaps it is a rationalization but sometimes I am able to be the voice of reason and keep these doctors from cutting a few women. Sometimes not and that's the hard part.

Please don't take from this that I am saying this was the situation in your daughter's case. I have no way of knowing. What I do know is how often surgery is performed unnecessarily and that very reason is used as the excuse way too much of the time.
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #60
69. Sigh...no
women don't normally go to a hospital for early miscarriages. It is not necessary unless the bleeding becomes hemoraging.

The only reason for legally reporting a misscariage is to make sure doctors are getting away with aborting women and calling it a miscarriage and doing a D&C.

:eyes:
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phylny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #69
86. I went - twice, for two miscarriages.
For the first, my doc was out of town, and the answering service told me to go there, and the doc covering her practice would take care of me.

For the second, it was Labor Day weekend (no pun intended) and I wasn't sure what was going on, my doc was at the hospital already, so I met him there to take a look. Ended up miscarrying twins and having a D&E the following Tuesday in the office.

So, while many women miscarry at home, it's not unusual for women to seek medical care when it happens.

Having said that, this proposed bill as written is a crock.
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MI Cherie Donating Member (682 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 03:16 AM
Response to Reply #60
73. My doctor actually did give me a choice ...
... after an ultra sound determined that my baby (at 20 weeks) was dead:

Go to the hospital for induced labor or wait a few weeks for gravity to do the job.

What a jerk. Thank goodness he retired.





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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 05:54 AM
Response to Reply #60
77. If your doctor is of the less invasive variety
that is exactly what she would recommend. It is unnecessary in most cases to do a D & C and actually can cause problems with future pregnancies (incompetent cervis, scarring onthe cervix) as well as dangers to the woman receiving the D & C (ruptured uterus, infection, even death).

These days, though, with the huge problem with Chlamydia, the possibility of ectopic pregnancy in a previously undiagnosed pregnancy is much higher so the doctors probably have to recommend that the mom go to the hospital just because of liability. Unfortunately, when a woman does go to the hospital, she is likely to be subjected to the mostly unnecessary, invasive and possibly damaging D & C.

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Nobody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #60
81. Miscarriages without benefit of medical care
I agree with you that if you know you just had a miscarriage you should go to the hospital post haste.

There are probably a lot of things occurring without benefit of medical care, especially nowadays when there are so many people without jobs that grant health care benefits. Even if they work, they might be working multiple part time jobs or temp positions. The majority of the so-called new jobs are mostly temp jobs. No health care benefits for temps.

It's so much more cost effective to cover people so they CAN go see the doctor and prevent problems instead of them waiting until they can't function at all and cost taxpayers a ton of emergency room fees.

And then there are these idiotic punitive laws proposed to criminalize women who probably don't know that they should see a doctor at once or can't afford to rack up the doctor bills. They may not even know that they can get treated at the emergency room regardless of income.

This is a symptom of a larger problem. We're supposedly the most advanced, richest nation in the world and yet we refuse to share our bounty even among ourselves. Bleh!
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put out Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #60
101. No, to your original question. (A little graphic.)
Not always, no matter what you know you would do.

When it happened for me, I knew what was happening and was aware that it was going to happen. My physician confirmed at 9 weeks that the fetus was no longer viable, and it had been, before. I was given the choice of a D&C, or to let the miscarriage happen. I chose to let it happen and was prescribed pain killing meds for during and antibiotics for after. I was cautioned to report excessive bleeding, difficulty urinating, intractable abdominal pain and swelling, or fever after. My doc checked out my body a couple of weeks later.

Now, I could have driven myself to the hospital, bleeding and in enormous pain, when it happened. Instead, I chose to stay in my home and in my bed, with the comfort of my husband and the drugs. Much better than among strangers, in a cold bright bed with someone prying around between my legs.

How would you suggest it should have been reported? I could have had my man squeegee up the blood and I could have fished the fetus out of the toilet with some barbeque tongs and put those things in a jar and gather the sanitary napkins and put them in a baggie. Do you think it would be better to bring the products of conception to the emergency room, or to my physician's office? Should I have gone straight to the Sheriff's Office? Or to the local Police Station? Would they have taken everything to the nearest morgue and demanded an autopsy? I didn't do any of those things. In VA, if this bill passes, what would be my fine? Would I have to do some time? My physician gave me my choices, so then since I didn't turn in the fetus, would the doc also pay a fine or do time?

I wonder what some folks know of the actual experience. Mighty easy to pass judgment. Anecdotal stories don't mean shit to me. Not shit. Every woman is different; every family situation is unique.

Kim
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Kber Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #60
102. Medical care givers are required by federal law to protect the privacy
of their patients, unless they suspect that a crime has been committed (i.e. a gunshot wound)

This asshole is trying to make women responsible for what doctors and nurses are forbidden to do.

As for your observation that most women would go to a hospital,
a) It's not illegal to refuse medical care
b) In, for example, my own case, 12 hours after my miscarriage I was still on the operating table while my doctor was trying to restart my heart after I had lost about 75% of my blood supply.

Neither of us were in the position to notify the police, and frankly, I think the police have better things to do than "investigate" what was a personal tragidy, but in no way a crime.

It's not about anything but control, pure and simple. If I am wrong, they can rewrite the legislation to make dumping a live baby in a dumpster a criminal act and prove me wrong. (In NJ, btw, it would be considered murder to abandon a living breathing child in a dumpster and, thereby cause his / her death.) But in my experience, their real concerns begin at conception and end at birth, so I'll bet they won't do it.
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talk hard Donating Member (549 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:33 PM
Response to Original message
63. Why wait? Comply now.
Edited on Sat Jan-08-05 09:34 PM by talk hard
"IF THIS PASSES then every woman in Virginia who has menstrual periods should call the police to report a possible miscarriage whenever her period arrives."

Let 'em get a taste of their own medicine.

And I like the idea of sending in used menstrual products just to be "on the safe side" in complying.

Seriously, the absurdity of this will only be recognized with full compliance (and then some).
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DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
66. holy shit
this politician deserves a life in hell. My wife and I had three miscarriages and he thinks we're criminal. Fuck him.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 01:04 AM
Response to Original message
70. I'm sure the police will be thrilled.
Are they expected to investigate? Keep lists?
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
71. You shoulda clicked on Cosgrove's reply.
Dear Maura:

I am Delegate Cosgrove and I wish to respond to your website and the allegations that have been made by those who have emailed and called my office. The intent of House Bill 1677 is to require the notification of authorities of a delivery of a baby that is dead and the mother has not been attended by a medical professional. This bill was requested by the Chesapeake Police Department in its legislative package due to instances of full term babies who were abandoned shortly after birth. These poor children died horrible deaths. If a coroner could not determine if the child was born alive, the person responsible for abandoning the child could only be charged with is the improper disposal of a human body.

The requirement for the twelve hour notification timeframe comes from the method that a coroner would use to determine if the child had been born alive or dead. After twelve hours, it becomes next to impossible to determine if the child was alive due to decomposition gasses that build up in the body.

My bill in no way intends that a woman who suffers a miscarriage should be charged for not notifying authorities. The bill in no way mentions miscarriages, only deliveries. However, after discussing the bill again with our legislative services lawyers, I have decided to include language that will define the bill to apply only to those babies that are claimed to have been stillborn and that are abandoned as stated above.

I would never inflict the type of emotional torture on a woman who has suffered such a traumatic event as a miscarriage by making her notify authorities of her loss. I would also never impose criminal sanctions on a woman who has gone through this loss. And I am confident that the General Assembly of Virginia would also not pass such a terrible imposition on a woman. My mother experienced several miscarriages and I have other friends who have been devastated by losing their children through miscarriages.

On a final note, your website advocates the use of emailing comments to my office. As for the emails that I have received, I have answered a few and will forward a similar explanation to those who sent them. I always seek to receive emails that express a point of view either in support or in opposition to an issue. The majority of emails I have received from this site, however, have been extremely abusive, condescending, and mean-spirited. That is never the way to communicate with another person and I hope that civil discourse would be your desire as well.

I hope that you will post this explanation on your website and understand the original intent of this bill. If you feel the need to discuss this matter more fully, please do not hesitate to call. Thank you for your time and consideration of this matter.

Sincerely,

John A. Cosgrove
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 02:30 AM
Response to Reply #71
72. The penultimate paragraph pummels a bit
but it made me giggle: he's still changing the language.
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AzDar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
79. I want Cosgrove to report to ME everytime he masturbates..(many times
a day, I'd suspect) for killing millions of potential human beings.
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DCdem87 Donating Member (70 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
83. I e-mailed him about it...
and I got a form letter basically saying that HB1677 doesn't even mention the word miscarriage. That this law only apply's to baby's already born that die. The only reason why they have the 12 hour limit is because, due to gases of decomposition, it is hard to figure out if a baby was born dead or born alive. The main purpose of this bill was put forth by the Chesapeake Police Department to combat a string of improperly disposed dead babies--and the fact that people who did this could only be charged with improper disposal of a corpse. I live in Chesapeake and have seen the stories on the news about improperly disposed babies, and I agree that it should be law to make sure that the parents of that baby should be legally obligated to notify the police so that people who don't and dispose of babies can get bigger sentences in a courtroom. There is no reason why that baby should have to decompose in a dumpster because the parents were afraid to go to the police. Why would they be afraid to go to the police and have a coroner's report anyway if the baby really did die outside the womb of natural causes?
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Democracy Died 2004 Donating Member (366 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #83
88. Please provide links to this"epidemic"
In Va.
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #83
89. Please read and understand
Edited on Sun Jan-09-05 12:08 PM by Cheswick2.0
The only reason they need to find out if a baby was born dead or alive is to find out if women are killing their babies. The only reason they need to find out if women are killing their babies is because they think women go around routinely killing their babies.

1) I doubt the number of babies this happens to justifies all woman being punished pro-actively by insensitive intrusion into their private lives.

2) This guy belongs to an extreme fundamentalist denomination of the Baptist church. I don't for one minute believe that this is anything but anti evil-women legislation.

3) Why would a poor woman in this country trust the government enough to go to the police if she miscarried late in pregnancy? Our government is all about punishment and putting people in jail or fining them into debtors prison. Imagine a young woman drug addict, selling herself to make a living, gets pregnant and the fetus dies after a late term miscarriage. She might have had an abortion but the laws have made it more and more impossible to do that. Between parental notification and 24 hour waiting periods etc... she has been shamed and forced into staying pregnant. Maybe she had a still birth. She goes to the police and they charge her with killing her fetus or contributing the death of her infant from exposing it to drugs.

As long as we live in a crime and punishment country these problems will get worse. God forbid we aren't able to give people stiffer penalties in court.
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Nobody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
90. Oooh! Ooooh! A personal response!
I sent an email and got the canned response and then I replied back that I was responding to the response. Here's the reply I got.

....from Del Cosgrove's office......

There have been several babies that have been abandoned in this region of Virginia in the last seveal years. I am not aware of an increase or decrease, but I am concerned about the babies. Just last year, a full term baby was delivered in this area and left on the snow to freeze and die. I do not believe that healthcare is the issue here. There are numerous avenues of free care for prenatal women, and hospitals in Virginia cannot turn away someone who cannot pay.

I don't have a magic wand that can cure all our societal ills, but if this bill may act as a deterent to the abandonment of one or more babies, then it will serve its purpose.

Thanks.

Delegate John A. Cosgrove
78th House of Delegates
(804)698-1078

.....end of email.....

I edited out the personal info, but to give a bit of background, I was asking about why can't we cover pregnant women rather than criminalize someone who couldn't afford to have a stillbirth at the hospital where it's safer.

Now we're getting somewhere. Cosgrove is really worrying about abandoned babies rather than deal with the realities that cause women to abandon theor children. Women who are going to abandon their newborns should have somewhere non-judgemental to take them.

I will respond to this email and propose this.

By the way, the bold is mine
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fortyfeetunder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #90
98. Oh, abandoned babies.
Is he going to adopt them all? Even if they aren't healthy, WASP babes?
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LiberalinNC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
91. As a woman who has experienced 2 miscarriages...
I find this disgusting! After the loss of my 2 babies all I wanted to do was crawl up in a ball and not move from my bed. Being told I was miscarrying was worse than being told I had cancer - and now they want to take away this most private moment, why am I NOT surprised! WHO'S FREAKIN' BUSINESS IS IT? More and more this country is becoming a police state, scares the hell out of me!
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mtnester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
95. This HAS to violate HIPAA
It just has to! This is medical information potentially being placed in a public forum (i.e. public police records)

Women, get ready...do you have your stash of money hidden away?
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fortyfeetunder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 06:27 PM
Response to Original message
97. if this dip shit wants to legislate something
how about a no-retribution baby abandonment bill. that a woman can leave a newborn she doesn't want to a hospital, fire department, etc. without fear of retribution?

I don't see the point in reporting a miscarriage/stillbirth to any law enforcement authority because again this is between a woman, her affected family, and her medical professional.
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elshiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
104. One Marylander's message to Cosgrove
It's none of your business anyway, so SHOVE IT!
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lizerdbits Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 11:05 PM
Response to Original message
105. They should call it 'The sub-human government-owned fetus mobile act'
My sister lives in VA and had a miscarriage in the fall. Actually it was called something sounding like 'disdended ovum'- there was no embryo growing in the sack but the placenta was growing for a few weeks so she was getting the nausea and other symptoms. One day she was bleeding and crampy so she went in and an ultrasound showed the lack on the embryo so they did a D&C I think. She is pregnant again and is farther along than she was at the time of her miscarriage so we are hopeful. I joked with her once that John Ashcroft's next job would be to come to her house every week to do an ultrasound to check for any defects and if he found any he would imprison her because it was due to her sinning, a sip of wine, or something she did/ate. That's not funny after reading this.
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okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 11:21 PM
Response to Original message
106. good, dems should bitch loud and clear about the consenquence's
of religious nuts passing laws. this is the shit that is needed to get the dumb ass sheeple to snap out of their 9/11 coma's. dems should then turn around and dare the repugs to pass some of this crap.
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seejanerun Donating Member (71 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 09:03 AM
Response to Original message
109. I wrote to Cosgrove
(Do they have any sense that they work for us?)

Dear Delegate Cosgrove,

I have read of HB 1677 and the plan to legislate consequences for Virginia women who fail to report fetal death, regardless of fetal age. I have also read the reasonable response you wrote to Maura, saying that your intention was for the law only to cover stillbirths. I believe you, and I think your intentions are probably good. Still, the road to hell is paved with good intentions, as they say, and I want to know why so many in our country are dead set on controlling women? And gays and muslims and atheists and I have come to the conclusion that most of these people dont believe in democracy. It is too chaotic for them, too full of people who think differently, who need to be controlled by some authoritarian means.

Let me say here that I am the mother of three teenagers who were born after ten years of infertility and miscarriages. Fertility issues brought me into contact with many medical practitioners, most of whom gave me expert (and uncensored) advice with the intention of helping my husband and me achieve our family goals. A minority were clear misogynists who took pleasure in female distress. Those are the people I think of when I see a host of male legislators making laws about womens health. Those are the people I think of when I see the president gloating up at a row of suits as he signs the so-called partial birth abortion act.

No one is pro abortion. No one, especially not a troubled teen, sets out with a plan to kill a newborn baby. These things happen because people think they have no choices or because they are suffering from depression or because they are afflicted with substance abuse or poverty or have been abused by people who were supposed to care for them. And then, what do the suits do? They want to convict people who need social or medical services with a crime and slap their caregivers in jail. The jails are full already, mostly with people who needed help, not incarceration.

Please, leave womens health to the women and their doctors. What you can do is make sure they have doctors. What you can do is treat women as people with equal rights and stop thinking that you know more than they do. That is the crime.

Sincerely,

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