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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 04:48 PM
Original message
About the New York Times, Fox News, and Kooky Tsunami Conspiracy Theories
Edited on Wed Jan-05-05 05:02 PM by Skinner
In case some of you missed it, The New York Times and Fox News have recently highlighted DU as ground zero for Kooky Conspiracy Theories regarding the tsunami. The New York Times article is here, and here's a DU thread about Fox News.

They say that all publicity is good publicity, and that is certainly true to some extent. Many of our members found this website because of some negative publicity we got elsewhere. Still, I don't think any of us really appreciate being painted as kooks.

I just emailed a Letter to the Editor to the New York Times. I hope they choose to run it. I think it is only fair, considering that their publication did not bother to contact us about the article when they were writing it.

We probably won't directly contact Fox News. My guess is that it would be a waste of time. But we'll address their report here.

Here's what we want all of you to know about this issue.


The official opinion of the DU Administrators

This should be obvious to everyone, but I'm going to say it anyway so there is no doubt what I believe, and what the other DU administrators believe: The tsunami in Asia was caused by a massive earthquake. This earthquake was a natural result of the movement of tectonic plates, as explained by the Theory of Plate Tectonics.


How we feel about kooky tsunami conspiracy theories

We think they're a bunch of crap, and we believe most -- if not all -- DU members think they're a bunch of crap. We do not wish to see them posted on our website. If anyone posts a kooky tsunami conspiracy theory on our website, we would like to know about it so we can remove it and then investigate the person who posted it as a possible troll.


What you should do if someone posts a kooky tsunami conspiracy theory

Please click the alert link on the post so the moderators can be made aware of it. The moderators will discuss it and decide if it needs to be removed. Do not personally attack people who post such things.

You are encouraged to reply to such posts and explain why they are wrong.


About the New York Times article

As I already mentioned, I have sent a Letter to the Editor to the Times. I am not going to reproduce the letter here, because they expect their letters to be exclusive, not published elsewhere. There are a few points I would like to make, however:

1. The Times never contacted us for comment.

2. The Times failed to mention that the post was completely anonymous, and there is no way of knowing what the person's intention was. The person who posted it was not a donor, so we don't even have a name from a credit card. We have no way of knowing if the person who posted it was a misguided fellow liberal, or a conservative trolling to make us look bad. For all we know, the right-winger over at whizbang blog could have posted it himself. On the Internet, there's just no way of knowing.

3. The Times took the post out of context. If you check the actual post you will see that it has the tone of an innocent question, albeit an ignorant one. The title of the post was "One more dumb question regarding the earthquake in Asia..." In other words, the person who posted it was not claiming it to be true, but was simply proposing it as part of a "dumb question."

4. The Times gave prominent placement to the fact that we were ridiculed on "other sites," but did not mention disagreement from other DUers until much later in the article. I do not know if this was intentional, but it did downplay the fact that almost everyone on DU disagreed with the post.

5. Picking out random anonymous postings on an Internet message board is shoddy journalism. There are so many things posted on the Internet that you could literally write whatever you want and find a quote to support it. One wonders why the author did not spend five minutes over at Free Republic and instead write an article about how conservatives think the tsunami was some sort of retribution from God, or how Muslims deserved it. (More on that later.)


About the Fox News report

Another admin has been home watching Fox News today, and was able to get a video tape of their report. Not surprisingly, it was a disgrace. I am not going to write a transcript, but I'll make a few observations.

Fox News is claiming that someone on Democratic Underground has claimed that the earthquake and tsunami were caused by an underground nuclear explosion. I haven't seen such a post, but this is a big website and I certainly believe it is possible that such a post exists. (If anyone knows where it is, please hit alert so we can make it go away.)

Here's the really underhanded thing about Fox: They're maliciously and deliberately giving their viewers the false impression that this is the official opinion of Democratic Underground. Of course, they aren't coming out and saying it directly, because that would be lying. But they have prepared their report in a manner to give that impression.

They never state that the claim comes from an anonymous posting on our website. Instead, they just report that the claim is being made on the Internet, while showing screenshots from our website. Interestingly, they are showing our homepage as it looked yesterday, when we were running a large graphic with the words "The Hell That is South Asia." They also click on that article and scroll down the page while they are talking. The clear implication is that our article makes this absurd claim, when in fact our article makes no such claim. Read it yourself; no conspiracy theories there.

On a side note, the Fox News report claims that such kooky claims are hurting our international reputation. Never mind the fact that Fox News is the mass medium which is reporting these kooky claims to the world. Methinks they might have another agenda here.


So, what's going on here?

Some people have speculated that The New York Times and Fox News are attacking us because they have decided that Democratic Underground is a threat. I don't buy it.

I don't think Democratic Underground is a threat. But I do think that some people have figured out that they can use extreme posts from Democratic Underground to paint all Democrats as extremists.

This is nothing new. Right-wing websites and radio programs have been doing it to us for years: Pick out something extreme from an anonymous message board, and then post it on your own site as "proof" that liberals are nuts. In fact, if you can't find something extreme enough, then all you have to do is create an anonymous login and post some extreme stuff yourself. (To be clear, I'm not accusing the Times or Fox News of doing this. But it does happen.)

Anyway, it appears that this type of thing is no longer limited to right-wing websites. Now we're seeing "mainstream" news outlets engaging in this kind of lazy, underhanded reporting.

But as long as they're writing this stuff, here's some helpful info:


From Free Republic

If any lazy, underhanded journalist wants to write an article smearing all conservatives as insensitive racists who cheer the deaths of non-white people in the tsunami, here are some quotes for you:

"Jesus Christ would not aprove of giving money to people to build houses again in an area that is.... lets face it...prone to this activity. Nothing in the Bible does it say "Blessed are the Stupid. The government taking money from you and I and giving it away is not charity. It is forced slavery of You and I." --Radioactive

"I was looking up a map of the affected areas and Indonesia seems to have been hit hardest. From the CIA World Fact Book, Indonesia is 88% muslim. Sometimes foreign aid money is well spent (goodwill, political influence, etc), but giving it to a muslim country is a waste." --benjaminjjones

"So just give money to our "allies". Indonesia gets nothing. Let the ragheads take care of their own." --benjaminjjones

"This is what I want to give to them: (Picture me shaking my hands up in the air singing..... LALALLALALALLLLLLAAAAALLALALLALALALLL). Just like they did when they celebrated 9-11. By the way...did any countries donate anything to our hurricane funds?" --benice

Much more here: U.S. Should Not Help Tsunami Victims


And then there's this one, blaming the tsunami on, well, you'll see...

Everyone is knocking the Muslims for asking the question why God allowed this to happen, but that is actually a very good question. Though, the speculation given here cannot be substantiated.

As far as I know, there were no prophets warning of this impending disaster. If there had been, who would have listened?

They are also correct in believing that God is angry with the wickedness of fornication and sodomy that is becoming more widespread in our world. Jesus warned that in the last days, before His return, the world would be like Sodom and Gomorrah.

Unfortunately for the clerics, God is also angry with the false prophets and promoters of false religions like theirs.

I am not sure why God allowed this disaster. I know it His mercy that preserves all of our lives, but we rarely ask why about the good days. We just take those for granted.

The days are coming when God's real judgment and wrath will be poured out. And this tsunami will look like a picnic. Because of the murder (including abortion and euthanasia), theft, adultery, fornication, idolatry, witchcraft, drunkenness and drug abuse, and for shedding the blood of His prophets and saints, God will pour out His fiery wrath on this world unlike it ever has been before. In two quick strokes, half of the earth's population will be destroyed. And this will not be the end. Imagine: not tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands or even millions, but BILLIONS DEAD. Can you imagine those headlines, if anyone is left to write them? People will become a scarce commodity like gold. And for all of this, there are some who still will not repent to give God glory.

Have a nice day, everyone." --unlearner

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1313784/posts
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Worst Username Ever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
1. amen
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arwalden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
2. Hallelujah!!
May I quote and/or link to your post?
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Worst Username Ever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
3. Unintentional typo, number "5" under "About the New York Times article"
"There are so many things posted on the Internet that you cold literally write whatever you want..."

Could, not cold.

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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 04:58 PM
Original message
Another Typo
What you should do if someone posts a kooky tsunami conspiracy theory

Please click the alert link on the post so the moderators can be made aware of it. The moderators will discuss it and decide if it needs to be removed. Do not personally attack people who posts such things.


"people who posts" should be "people who post"

Awesome!

DTH
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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
25. Thanks to you both.
Edited on Wed Jan-05-05 05:04 PM by Skinner
I fixed the typos. :thumbsup:
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newsguyatl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
4. it's become highly obvious
that several "in place" right wingers are monitoring du... folks from talk radio, to pundits, to network news outlets. the fox news hit alone is proof to this.

quite honestly i think it speaks volumes to what du has become... perhaps on the surface, they think it's fun to call it a "quack site" but you know what -- they wouldn't be monitoring it so much if they really believed that.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #4
16. I agree, and I take it as a compliment to DU
Why would Faux News bother with us if we weren't getting under somebody's skin?

Anybody who visits DU will immediately see that the Faux News version of us is wrong. They might even hang around and learn something.

There's no such thing as bad publicity for a website such as DU. The more people who visit this site the better imo.
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UltraDem Donating Member (64 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #16
58. Me too!!
I mean, what are we so scared of? This is a good opportunity to get our message across. After all, isn't that the reason we lost the election? Because not enough people were listening? Well, now they are!! Hooray!

Smile for the cameras, everybody!!
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ClintonTyree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 06:21 AM
Response to Reply #58
344. Precisely.....fear is their weapon of choice
Edited on Thu Jan-06-05 06:25 AM by ClintonTyree
They think the have the "real" solution to the ills of today's world. They use God, patriotism, nationalism, but most of all fear as their weapons. Fear, it's their mantra.

Unable to turn their fear inward, because it would drive them loonier than they are, all their fear turns outward. So they condemn, ridicule, use religious fervor, lies, patriotism....anything they can and turn their suspicious faces outward to destroy that which they do not understand. We challenge their felling of "rightness" and must be destroyed.

By labeling all of us lunatics by association with someone who may or may not be a member of this forum, they attempt to marginalize us. They're scared that we may be the ones who initiate their house of cards' collapse. If I were they, I'd be scared as well.

We may be those people. We may knock down your house of cards, maybe not. It may be some other Progressive Blogger that is sick of their lies and manipulation of the media that ultimately pricks their imagined bubble of "truth". Rest assured, we will not stop because some propaganda factory like FOX attacks us. They are the ones that should be watching over their shoulders. We're coming, and we're not that easily scared and won't be deterred by public ridicule.

One of these days, sooner rather than later, DU and our many allies on the left will expose their fear for all to see. We'll expose their seedy tactics, their lies, everything about them that reek of hypocrisy.......and fear. They'll have nothing left to hide behind.

We are not afraid of what they can do to us. They had damn well be afraid of what we can do to them.
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #16
468. Am I the only one that posts inflammatory stuff because these cretins are
watching us? I didn't think so. We know who are the real fools and false prophets. Their foolishness puts a smile on my face! :D
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
20. Either that or some right wingnuts are forwarding "tips" to some
very bored and unethical journalists... ;-)

Personally, I'd love to see Harper's publish some freeper tidbits in their Readings section. It's the perfect material.
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chomskysright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #20
175. great idea re: Harper's Readings .....
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #20
350. That's a great idea.
Love to see it.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #4
40. Agree and disagree
Here is the part I disagree on.

There is a lot of "quackery" on DU. And these rightwing monitors look for it so as to associate the DNC and all Democrats to it.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #4
46. Excellent and Thank You, Except.....
now I feel so dirty after reading freeper posts. Yuck!
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HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
5. Well, at least I'm not the only one that thinks half of DU is fucking nuts
;-)
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ClintonTyree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 06:31 AM
Response to Reply #5
345. I resemble that remark.................
and I'm happy to see that our neighbours (see, I even put the "u" in for you) from the North are as "loony" as their money and us.
Some of us may be "colorful" but at least we don't insist that we have all the answers and we're never wrong.
Keep on keepin' on HEyHEY.
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
6. THANK YOU! THANK YOU !THANK YOU! THANK YOU!
I think you should widely distribute this as a press release!


THANK YOU! THANK YOU !THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU !THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU !THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU !THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU !THANK YOU! THANK YOU!
THANK YOU! THANK YOU !THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU !THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU !THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU !THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU !THANK YOU! THANK YOU!
THANK YOU! THANK YOU !THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU !THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU !THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU !THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU !THANK YOU! THANK YOU!
THANK YOU! THANK YOU !THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU !THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU !THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU !THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU !THANK YOU! THANK YOU!
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
7. Amen!
Thank you for this!

DTH
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
8. Good for you, man!
Edited on Wed Jan-05-05 04:57 PM by janx
It deserved an official response, and that response should have come only from you.

Cheers. :toast:
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Ravenseye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
9. Nice!
good response.
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Mayberry Machiavelli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
10. Nicely done.
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democracyindanger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
11. Three cheers
Hell, I'll give Skinner four.
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spotbird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
12. IMO trolls post much of the truly loony stuff.
Edited on Wed Jan-05-05 05:03 PM by spotbird
What kills me about the repetition of the most off the wall comments posted here is that this is an anonymous board, where people post comments reflecting strong opinions. Those strong opinions, even when mainstream, anger our detractors. Anyone who wished to discredit the whole board could easily make comments, that reflect poorly on all of us.

There is nothing that can be done to prevent it, but when the MSM reports these comments as indicative of the whole place it again betrays its bias. Naturally Fox is all bias, slamming us is complement from them, but the NYT occasionally attempts to portray themselves as unbiased, unsuccessfully lately.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #12
45. maybe, maybe not, but regardless..
I propose that anything posted that sounds fishy face instant deletion unless it is sourced from a reputable source.
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spotbird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #45
60. Kos has a cool self-moderated forum.
Edited on Wed Jan-05-05 05:31 PM by spotbird
After a while a user becomes trusted, if a certain number of the trusted vote a post as by a troll the post is removed. There are checks so it works very well. As this place explodes it becomes harder for moderators to keep up with everything, not to mention an occasional troll moderator slips through occasionally, I'm sure.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #60
65. sounds good but I still see a few problems with that
..being that DU is such a big tent, and one faction seems to hate the other, I could see posts being voted on as "troll" out of spite.
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spotbird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #65
76. There is a check for that.
A removed post can be restored by other trusted users who are allowed to view the deleted posts.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #45
63. Fishy by whose standard?
I think the fact that DU is very liberal about what it allows to be posted is one of the things that makes it an enjoyable and engaging forum. If nothing else it allows the conspiracies to be thoughtfully debunked. I think censorship would take away one of the best aspects of DU.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #63
66. By the admin's standards
since I can't delete posts, you'd never have to worry about me doing so.

Conspiracy theories being posted aren't about censorship. We often move into the realm of libel.
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tngledwebb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 05:16 AM
Response to Reply #66
485. You have seen examples of LEGALLY libelous posts on DU ?
Under what laws could a libel suit be brought against individuals posting on an internet discussion forum? Or against DU itself? That is a very far fetched scenario.

Of course DU could be shut down in a second under the Patriot Act
and all of us sent to Gitmo overnight. That'S far more plausible than a libel suit.

Of course I believe in a one of those crazy CT's. You know- two or three elections stolen by a fascist regime, and with high levels of govt and MSM complicity.
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HeeBGBz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #63
79. I agree. Discussion. Not censorship.
The lack of a heavy hand of censorship was what I thought was most appealing about this place. Some of the lounge topics make me cringe but I would fight for their right to exist.

Now merely supposing possibilities and asking questions and open discussion is restricted because Fox has decided to play dirty. I guess their little plan is working.



Who is the "normal" jury for judgement of post content?
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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #79
393. for me the du is a great place because ideas can be thrown
Edited on Thu Jan-06-05 12:38 PM by ooglymoogly
out and people can dump on them or agree. it is in this way it seems to me that good ideas are formed in all of us. to react to idiocy like fox et al, who would like nothing more than to have a censoring effect on this site which they apparently have done is compounding the idiocy. i believed du was big enough to take criticism no matter how stupid in stride and go on searching out the truth. i am stupefied by this new idea of censorship. so toss me out if you want. i have learned many things on du. i am a natural battleship tinfoil hatter and many conspiracies have been debunked on this site and my admiration goes out to the du posters for that and furthermore i do think du is a threat to the 'mainstream' press because du can take a lot of energy and like a laser focus it on a particular place and make it stand up and take notice and not a few have been singed. and so to toss out this ability by starting to censor posters for ideas no matter how stupid. forget it.

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lady lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #63
113. I agree
How can you learn if you can't ask a lousy (or good) question? This is getting blown way out of proportion. She didn't theorize anything. She asked a question.
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truthseeker1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #113
144. I completely agree
It was blown way out of proportion and the people who were so rude to respond to her and say it was a dumb question are the ones who should get alerted.

Does anyone know of a good progressive forum that doesn't have censorship where theories can be floated without being judged as kooks or slapped down as stupid?
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Conspirationalist Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #144
157. "I completely agree"
I double and triple agree.
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murray hill farm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #144
177. If you find such a site, please let me know!!
I, for one...am very disappointed with this censorship move here...this is a bad thing..censorship! And, this is all about a post that was a question..a simple question...and now...we will get reported if we mention it...geeeez!
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truthseeker1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #177
190. Makes me wonder about the true nature of DU
Edited on Wed Jan-05-05 08:59 PM by truthseeker1
Are the sheeple (even at DU now!?!) policing themselves?
Is this the way the CIA (or powers that be, whatever you want to call it) will control the Internet without actually killing it??

How can theories be tested and the truth be found if one doesn't begin with a hypothesis? Sorry, but most hypotheses don't have sources you can link to. They're called hunches and they're not all scientifically based.
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murray hill farm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #190
193. so true!!
What is happening here is more frightening than tsunamis..ha! I think that if the DU admin is asking us to report and alert them to further crackpot threads..like the question that lindashaw dared to pose in "general discussion"...note that it was not in our "scientific journal of proven facts" discussion category..and it was a question..just a simple question and it was prefaced even with something like "another dumb question"...well..scary , eh! I think it only fair that if admin is watching us and asking us to turn each other in to them if we post the forbidden subjects, then at the very least, they should post a list of what are the forbidden words and topics..so at least we will know we have done a bad thing..and maybe decide not to post it..since we dont want to get reported or sanctioned. for example, is it ok to ask a question about "global warming"...only certain questions...some question OK, but not others? It seems only fair that if this is the response of admin here, that it is only fair that they warn us in advance with a list of what is allowed in the way of discussion and what is not...clearly lindashaw had no way of knowing that her simple question would cause some many heads to explode here...and certainly she had no idea that her question would lead to such blatant cencership on the site...she certainly did not anticipate the hate and name calling that followed her question. So..i say..Admin...give us a clear list of acceptable and not acceptable discussion topics here...at least warn us in advance that we will not be discussing or question areas that are forbidden now.
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Child_Of_Isis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #193
246. I actually thought lindashaw
was referring to global warming. And seeing how freeps don't believe in global warming,(and freeps are controlling us now) is it considered a conspiracy theory and subject to censorship by DU?
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Conspirationalist Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #193
306. Sounds like..
1984! The Thought Police!
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Child_Of_Isis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #190
238. Fox is now policing DU.
with right wingers in tow. I cannot even articulate my disappointment. They say jump and we ask how high.
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Conspirationalist Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 02:41 AM
Response to Reply #238
309. Too true.
It's the worst fault of all liberals. They're too "nice", too soft in the middle, have too little courage of their convictions. Michael Moore says so. I think he is right.

(BUT IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE THAT WAY! The grassroots can take its party back. It's much better poised to do that in America than the equivalent situation in Britain with the Labour party - I think. You American liberals are more numerous; you're more passionate; you're both more middle-class and more radical, more educated... Need I compliment more? Anyway, you've still got a lot going for you. Hang in there.)
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outrage Donating Member (74 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #238
434. Fox is now policing DU.
Fox can suck a big one. We should change nothing just because the wingnuts are watching. They are the kooks, the reactionaries, the racists, the fascists. A short tour of their site bears that out. I have never, ever read such unmitigated hatred and lunacy with perhaps the exception of the neo-nazi sites. So, Fox, if you're cruising around here bite me. You're about as fair and balanced as as Pol Pot. Kiss my shiney brown butt.
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #434
444. and there IS a way to deal with it.
Laugh at them. laugh our asses at them.

pooh-pooh them.

pat them on the head.

But if we change, they win.
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tngledwebb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 05:19 AM
Response to Reply #238
486. Not just Fox, the NY TIMES!
Get with the program. MSM is complicit with BushCo!
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Emillereid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 03:04 AM
Response to Reply #144
315. If you find one let me know too --
there are so many things that are great about DU, but I've been smelling the putrid hand of conformity of late. That we should let the kooky opinions of the NYT or Fox dictate what we can say or not say is a sad day indeed.

Let us not forget:

An' though the rules of the road have been lodged
It's only people's games that you got to dodge
And it's alright, Ma, I can make it.
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #315
372. Agreed, it is the NYT and Fox that are kooky--
and the admin letter to them is appropriate and well stated.

The MSM are the problem, not us. The article was way out of line, opening with blatant disparagement and even though there was a positive "point" to be made, that point was secondary and intended to counter any objections to the main message.

Consider that if the NYT hadn't done this story, this issue would never have come up and the original tsunami thread would have faded into oblivion. We should not overreact to criticism and innuendo.
Out of thousands of excellent posts here at DU, the Times chose one of the small number that are kinda goofy--THAT is the problem!

I'm wary of people who want to do too much "cleaning up" after something like this. I urge the administrators not to change anything, and to continue to let everyone decide what is "too kooky" for them on a personal basis. DU would degenerate into hopeless infighting if you have people trying to vote on what fits on their personal scale of kooky.

I think we can all tell the difference between kooky and downright crazy. The tsunami post was not a crazy incoherent rave. It might not be to everyone's taste. A lot of things posted here are not my personal taste, but I want to read them anyway. Resist the urge to futher censorship.
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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #144
400. i couldn't agree more
fk faux news
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Emillereid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #63
198. I agree -- in fact, I think the free and unfettered airing of ideas is the
best way to assure that truth will emerge. Any form of censorship is anathema -- I mean who gets to decide that an idea is kooky -- some kooky ideas have won out in history. I think people on DU often get their knickers in a knot over silly stuff -- if you consider an idea kooky, don't respond and just let the matter die of its own accord. Or vigorously argue and inform -- but don't get so overexcited that you feel some kind of self-censorship is in order. Censorship is stifling and always damaging to the real pursuit of truth. Ideas -- even strange ones will not harm you; their suppression will.

"The growth of knowledge depends entirely on disagreement"
(Karl R. Popper, 1902-1994)


"Concepts which have proved useful for ordering things easily assume so great an authority over us, that we forget their terrestrial origin and accept them as unalterable facts. They then become labeled as 'conceptual necessities,' etc. The road of scientific progress is frequently blocked for long periods by such errors." - Einstein

Think out loud; think long and hard and often -- it's good exercise for the brain! Let all the wild ideas swirl and fly -- perhaps to catch a ride on a star and be seen by all -- as immutable and eternal.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #198
211. The biggest accomplishment of the corporate media
is to make certain ideas outside the realm of allowable discussion. Certain ideas, concepts and opinions are deemed too outrageous to consider.

The greatest accomplishment of the internet is to shatter that stranglehold on information and access to non-mainstream ideas. I don't think the corporate media is trying to hide anything about the tsunami. But I think we make a big mistake if we allow the corporate media to ridicule us into playing their game of not allowing certain ideas.

We're adults, most of us. Anyway, we can figure out what is credible and what is a crazy conspiracy theory for ourselves. I think it will be a sad day if DU becomes a place that censors itself from expressing ideas that are disapproved by the corporate media for fear of being ridiculed.
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Conspirationalist Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #211
312. Precisely.
We can't allow the corporate media to set the agenda any more.
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Conspirationalist Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 02:43 AM
Response to Reply #198
310. That's it!
That's the way.
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Donkeyboy75 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 04:32 AM
Response to Reply #198
333. The growth of knowledge,
however, is never helped by complete and willful ignorance of factual information.
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Emillereid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 03:13 AM
Response to Reply #63
317. I'm sure glad that there are a few of us around who truly champion the
free flow of ideas! I am stunned that we would even contemplate censoring any ideas because of the what the NYT or Fox thinks -- they think that the idea that Bush stole the election as completely kooky and stupid -- so we should just fold our tent and go home -- the great lord of truth and veracity has spoken. HELL NO -- I'm old enough to now see once completely off the edge, kooky, conspiratorial ideas turn up in history books as proven facts. Sometimes it takes a very long time for the kooky ideas to weave themselves into a tapestry of truth for all to see. Until then, jump on a crazy idea and follow it to the end -- you just might be surprised.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #63
351. Agree wholeheartedly. Lots of kooks, true, but lots of really intelligent,
really insightful stuff too. I've learned to wade through the crap to get to the good stuff.
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #351
469. Doesn't everybody?
I mean, you'd have to be an first grade imbecile to actually honor some of the wacky stuff posted here with a response. I saw both of the silly theories here and just rolled my eyes and moved on. Apparenly the MSM isn't sophisticated enough to know a rant from an educated analysis. Fool me once... :D
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UltraDem Donating Member (64 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #63
395. Exactly!!
I don't think we can afford to start second-guessing ourselves right now. They're gonna call us "nuts" no matter what we do. I say, "screw em!" Let's just be who we are. If they don't like it, so what? I, for one, am not ashamed of who I am and I refuse to apologize for it.

I'M A LIBERAL AND PROUD OF IT!!!! YOU GOT A PROBLEM WITH THAT?
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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #63
415. i agree
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jahyarain Donating Member (254 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #63
431. uh huh
Agreed. i signed up and posted on the "Free Republic". My post never made it. When i tried to find out why, i was informed i was banned. All i said was that they will all burn in the 7th ring of Hell with W, and all the other rapists, murderers, & liars. What did i do wrong?
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #12
85. Seventhson
enough said
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WoodrowFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #85
200. seventhson
and yet a CTer today linked to seventhson's posts as "proof" of some tinfoil "theory" (HEAVY SIGH)
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lib_1138 Donating Member (143 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #12
252. It really sucks, but that is the price of Freedom
So we have to put up with the occassional FReeper troll.

Better to shut down the thread so the Outside World doesn't see this kind of nonsense. These "conspiracy" theories are just FReepers trying to make us look bad.

I have been watching for months and I can tell true Progressives vs. troublemakers!
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truthseeker1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 02:43 AM
Response to Reply #252
311. "that is the price of Freedom????"
JEEBUS, you sound like the ignoramuses who say oh I don't care if I get felt up in the airport or my grandma has to take her shoes off for security, as long as it makes me safer! DERR!

Yes, it's more important that YOU not be embarrassed than it is to have free and open debate. Stop being so paranoid and worrying about what other people think.

Glad to hear your Freeper radar is intact and you know how to sort out the "troublemakers". <sarcasm off>
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Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #252
392. Benjamin Franklin quote:
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
13. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Misunderestimator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
14. Thanks for taking the bull by the horns on this.
Edited on Wed Jan-05-05 05:00 PM by Misunderestimator
I still think that the publicity will be a good thing for DU... Well, it will be a good thing for those people who come to DU out of curiosity because of this. A quick visit and read here will make them quickly realize how slanted and absurd these two accounts are and they may finally begin to understand how unliberal and biased our media really is.

Keep up the great work!
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Taxloss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
15. Hear hear.
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
17. Link this to your message.
This is the wikipedia theory of Plate Tectonics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plate_tectonics
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
18. Thank you for addressing this so clearly. n/t
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Cuban_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
19. Kick n/t
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
21. good job skinner!!
i think 99.999 % of DU'ers know that tsunami was a natural disaster and we are all very sad that it happened. And aid should go to countries that need it regardless of race and religion.

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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
22. So now your censoring topics
because they bring criticism from the corporate media? I agree that its irresponsible to make accusations that the earthquake was intentionally started when there is no evidence of that. However, I'm a little bothered by the precedent this sets. Why not just denounce the opinion expressed but allow them to be discussed?

But, as the FAQ says this is a private website and there is no presumption that we have first amendment rights here.
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #22
32. also some of us dont like to have tinfoil hatters
Edited on Wed Jan-05-05 05:12 PM by lionesspriyanka
reflect on all of us.

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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #32
123. Dont let others define you
define yourself :shrug:
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tsuki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #123
135. Fox will try to define us (the Dean scream.) If they can't find
anything, or take anything out of context, they'll make up something. That is their MO.

They don't like the fact DU exists to ask questions.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #135
136. Let them.
Each DUer is capable of defining themselves.Instead of saying "oh no,they're making fun of us" and being quiet,speak up. :)
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tsuki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #136
183. You're absolutely correct. Terror of committing the sin of
non-conformity has silenced quite a few voices over the years. I shall remain here with my kooky opinions and ideas and, heaven forbid, my questions.



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Old Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 03:56 AM
Response to Reply #32
322. Who is welcome on Democratic Underground, and who is not
Edited on Thu Jan-06-05 04:34 AM by Old Mouse
We welcome Democrats of all stripes, along with other progressives who will work with us to achieve our shared goals.

This is a "big tent" message board. We welcome a wide range of progressive opinion. You will likely encounter many points of view here that you disagree with.

from the DU rules

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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #322
370. clearly insanity is not covered under big tent!
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Old Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #370
451. Who is welcome on Democratic Underground, and who is not
You will likely encounter many points of view here that you disagree with.
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #22
126. Congratulations seem to be in order, actually, RA
Edited on Wed Jan-05-05 07:05 PM by Eloriel
Don't you think? DU has now become not just part of the Matrix, but an enforcing arm of the Matrix all in one fell swoop.

I shudder to think what a little negative publicity about 9-11 speculation that went on here would've accomplished for the wrong side. Or, for that matter, the election fraud stuff but in 2000, 2002, and 2004 now as well.

Will the next step be a list of what are the acceptable "tin foil hat" subjects? I sure as hell wouldn't want to get labeled a troll by bringing a well-researched, science-based discussion to DU that went against the Conventional Wisdom and Official Story/Mtyh/Lie.

Edited to add: And just think about this -- the incredibly valuable lesson the rightwing or other guardians of The Official Story/Myth/Lies has just learned. If they want to shut us up about any given topic, all they have to do is apply pressure. We've been impervious to that in the past, but no more.

It's a very sad day. DU has gone mainstream. It's value is inestimably eroded.
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RandomKoolzip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #126
142. Oh, relax.
The tsunami-conspiracy stuff was OBVIOUS bullshit. Any tenthgrader with a basic knowledge of science could tell you that. Its only purpose was to make other, more reasonable speculation about real topics that are avoided by the mainstream for their "CT" taint (MIHOP, JFK assassination, the Plame outing, "rathergate," etc.) look kooky and thus help wipe ALL speculation of the table. Like I've said on other threads, associating off-the-wall woo-woo topics like man-made earthquakes or HAARP or mind control or chemtrails with reasoned, sober topics like CIA covert plots, assassinations, PNAC machinations is the purpose of whatever troll posted that crap. It works. It's why my wife constantly makes fun of me for my books on the JFK assassination; she thinks ALL CT research is UFO abductee/Art Bell/chemtrail nonsense, because of tactics like this.

There are LOTS of other topics we can talk about that have at least a tiny kernel of tinfoilia about them, but are nonetheless PLAUSIBLE, fer crissakes.

It ain't the end of the world.
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truthseeker1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #142
308. And so WHO decides which CT topics are ok to discuss......YOU?
Apparently you think you're qualified. lindashaw wasn't putting forth a CT, and she clearly wasn't a troll. I am so sick of hearing all of the "conspiracy theories" about trolls on DU. You all are drumming up the troll charge whenever someone has an idea that's different from yours!
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ZanZaBar Donating Member (95 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #142
503. Yeah, go ahead, tell me this is 'nonsense' again...
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #126
158. Is 'Operation Vigilant Warrior' a tinhat topic? Get scared by a smear?
Feel a pre-emptive chill from the Eye of the Media Dragon?
'They' gonna take yer credibility badge away from you?

Just stick with the facts. They usually exonerate the 'tinfoil-hatters.'

Banning topics is creating thought-crime.
Very bad move. The worst.
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Mike Niendorff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #126
168. you actually answer your own objection here, El :

> I sure as hell wouldn't want to get labeled a troll by bringing a
> well-researched, science-based discussion to DU that went against the
> Conventional Wisdom and Official Story/Myth/Lie.


Fairly straightforward standard, when you right get down to it.


MDN

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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #168
475. Apparently you don't quite understand
It's not clear to me that you do -- I was in the process of actually responding to a marvelous thread started by Tinoire, with some superb documentation throughout, when that thread was yanked. I thought it had a lot of science in it.

And YET -- even a thread like that is obviously verboten.

So for my money, I did NOT answer my own objection. I raised one, a very serious one.
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uncle ray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #126
201. exactly
way to cave Skinner.

this, this is what makes DU "look bad" yet we have a forum where equally crazy theories of missiles hitting the pentagon, and planted explosives took down the WTC towers are just hunky dorey. simply amazing.

interesting that Skinner used the phrase "theory of plate tectonics" theory, huh?
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #201
244. Theory
Edited on Wed Jan-05-05 11:10 PM by IanDB1
This is what scientists mean when they refer to a "Theory of Tectonic Plates" or "Theory of Evolution" or "Theory of Gravity."

# A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.

The simplistic explanation:

A Theory describes what and how.
A Law describes the numbers.
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ashmanonar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #201
250. isn't that the very point of it?
a theory is just that...if it isn't discussed or attempted to be proved/disproved, then it's not truly a theory at all, is it?

would heliocentrism have been proven* if galileo, copernicus, and kepler hadn't remained open-minded and outspoken about it? would plate tectonics have been proven* if brave geologists like Bob Ballard hadn't gone out and checked it for themselves?

outspokenness is the key to either proving or disproving a theory, based on the scientific evidence that is unearthed in investigating the theory...




*: i say proven with a grain of salt, bc in the case of G, C, and K, the universe isn't just our sun and planets, but all the galaxies and all the stars...and in the case of Bob Ballard, plate tectonics has still not been thorougly vetted, there are still unexpected consequences from natural and unnatural causes...in other words, it still remains a theory.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #126
218. Very good point about election scandals
Edited on Wed Jan-05-05 10:04 PM by Radical Activist
Those were not considered credible by the mainstream media. Without DU I would never have learned about a lot of serious arguments about what happened in '04 because that was considered to be a crazy conspiracy theory by most of the media. My conclusion is that there was fraud and mistakes made, as happens in almost EVERY election, but probably not enough to make Kerry the winner. But, at least I had the opportunity to see all the good and bad arguments and come to that conclusion for myself.

In the future, at what point do we decide something is too crazy to be discussed? Whenever the New York Times makes fun of us for it?
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Cookie wookie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #126
239. moved downthread
Edited on Wed Jan-05-05 11:14 PM by Cookie wookie
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truthseeker1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #126
305. May be time for a new forum Eloriel.....
I've been searching but haven't found one yet. There seem to be so many nasties now on this board - posters who seem to have the arrogance so often found on "other" boards. It's truly a sad day indeed.
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Donkeyboy75 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 04:37 AM
Response to Reply #126
335. Are you aware, Eloriel,
that the Matrix trilogy was fictional? Just curious.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #126
405. Absolutely Eloriel. We have struck a nerve and MSM doesnt like it.
Edited on Thu Jan-06-05 01:09 PM by shance
Pursuance of the truth is the casualty?
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InvisibleBallots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #126
517. "DU has gone mainstream"
They can't ignore the blogs any longer. Corporate Media is losing its effectiveness, so they are going to try to exert some influence.
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Child_Of_Isis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #22
247. lindashaw's original post didn't say anything
about an earthquake being intentionally started. Not the one that I read anyway.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #22
353. But the protocol has always been to give us a link or citiation.
It's a tried and true way of spotting a troll-like post and it's worked very well.

I have absolutely no problem with challenging off-the-wall theories, even if posted as "dumb questions," by asking the OPs to provide a link or answer their own questions first.

I've found some legitimate ideas out there, and also found a lot of smelly drive-bys that reek of torllism.
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #353
476. Another thread was yanked too -- a VERY well sourced and
documented one. Started by Tinoire who isn't exactly chopped liver or one of DU's least credible people. I was in the process of responding to that very thread when wooops!! it was locked. Then I tried to refresh the thread, and wooops!! it was GONE completely.
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
23. Great post Skinner. This is much ado about nothing.
The FR post says it all. You can take ANY post out of context and claim ALL posts kooky. The MSM should be fearful of any free speech sites and apparently they are. I have been a supporter of the NYTimes and I'm very disappointed in them.
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Demit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
24. I believe the Times and their MSM brothers have chosen DU as the poster
child for their defense against lost subscribers. Ergo, the discrediting campaign against bloggers and internet reporting as a source of news. I don't know if the numbers are available yet, but I'll bet dollars to donuts their circulation is down--plenty of anecdotal evidence has appeared--guess what! Here on DU!

It must sting that their traditional liberal readership has turned on them; their "liberal" cover has been stripped off; they're losing us in droves--and ha! They're still called liberal by the other side, so no pickup of readers there. Oopsie daisie.

Please let us know if your LTTE gets published, Skinner. And thanks for writing it too.
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dreamcollector Donating Member (180 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #24
125. YOU WANNA BELIEVE IT!
You have put your finger on it. They are losing readers and they deserve to do so.
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
26. but, but, where's the "conspiracy theory/"
I just re-read the post linked to as the "actual post" in Mr Skinner's exposition, and have just one question: Where did the poster say anything about a conspiracy?

All I saw was a speculation about possible cause and effect,, not one word about conspiracy.

Redstone
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #26
98. I personally think this sucks.
Edited on Wed Jan-05-05 06:35 PM by jdj
I am sorry that the admins feel smeared by this.


However, this is a website on the internet, and people should be able to post what they want to speculate on within the rules.

I cringed when I read that post, and I thought surely this is a troll.

But I have seen so many things on here that are way way way above and beyond someone speculating that human activities can contribute to natural disasters.

If the two entities in question deserve a reply (and one of them definitely doesn't) then that reply should be that DU is a representation of the best aspects of living in a democracy, in that both, or rather all, sides of an issue are represented and all possibilities regarding an issue are considered and debated vigorously. This used to be the job of the media and of congress, but since we now are force-fed pre-fab partisanship, we have no debate in the public sphere anymore at all, save the internet. That is why the other side either won't even allow an opposing view (or views), like Limbaugh, or pretend to allow other view to be heard but really just interrupt, badger, antagonize, yell over and cut off their guests (like Hannity, O'Reilly, etc) that are there for the purpose of contrasting the issue.

Where were they when DUers claimed Bush caused 9/11, or when we claimed repukes killed Wellstone, or now Matsui, or that they stole the election? These things are in the same arena and many discussions have been had here about them, but now that DU has national attention we are supposed to straigten up and fly right? (Pun intended).

I don't know. I am sad that the admins feel they have to respond to this. Because, clearly the deck is stacked against DU. There is no liberal media, and the MSM is coming after this place for a reason. I DO believe people see this place as a threat, because, just like the viewers of the Daily Show, this place has a membership that is freakishly intelligent. I really hope the admins will ask themselves "How would Jon Stewart respond to this?" and respond with humor instead of allowing people to see us offended. Of COURSE people are going to post conspiracy theories here, and of course they are going to be debunked. Progressives are just not very trusting souls when it comes to government. In the words of Samuel Clemens: "Loyalty to my country? Always. Loyalty to my government? Only when it deserves it."
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Donkeyboy75 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #26
102. The threads have been deleted,
but the woo-woos used this disaster as a vehicle to parade their crackpot HAARP theories. That's where the conspiracy comes into it.
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WoodrowFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #26
214. it was in the replies
if I remember right, one of the posters replying to the original post in question suggested that the US Navy was hiding that it MAY have cause the quake through sonar experiments in the South Pacific near New Zealand. Other, related threads suggested simular ideas, that somehow the US military or some US business had "caused" the quake, either on purpose or by accident.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #26
408. Yep.
n/t
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Jesus H. Christ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
27. Think we could make this a sticky?
Just for a day or two?
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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #27
34. I'll sticky it later.
I'm going to let it float for a couple hours. Many people are blind to pinned posts.
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Conspirationalist Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 04:12 AM
Response to Reply #27
326. What the heck precisely is a sticky?
And why do we have all these people talking about "frozen posts" and wanting to gum up other people's posts, anyway?? If you don't delete them (and I thought webmasters only did that for obscene words) then don't gum them up! Leave your chewing gum in your mouth!
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LiviaOlivia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
28. Amen
eom
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
29. I agree that the article did not show DU in the best light
As I posted yesterday, there is a bit more to the story:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

I happen to know the reporter (John Schwartz) of this story and sent him a note asking about it.

While I can't go into specific details, the gist was that pieces were trimmed from it, which resulted in the current story appearing "lopsided".

The main thrust of the article, which seems to me now blunted, was that while you can find goofy/offensive people on both sides of the political spectrum, the blogsphere is, unlike MSM, self-correcting in real time. This was pointed out as the medium's strength.

I would like to add that certain "other" sites of a conservative slant
were also discussed and had their "less than laudible" comments quoted, but alas...

That's all I can say about it publicly, except for the fact that the omission of the link to DU was an error and is being corrected.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, before anyone starts in on me, I am passing along the information to provide additional background to the issue.

I *too* had problems with the crack about DU being a place for people who "hate Bush", and made that point in my email. I have aksed that the original article be shown so folks can see the entire piece and judge it on its merits, but it probably won't happen as newspapers just don't do that kind of thing.

Skinner is right to be mad, in his shoes I would be to. I do think, however, that it is high time that the NYT management woke the Hell up and started doing their job and that is reporting the news, *all* the news, in a fair and professional manner.

The taste of right-wing butt does not improve with age.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #29
515. "place for people who hate the Bush administration"
AND America, too, I suppose. How sad that NY Times has been taken over by the borg, too...
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
30. can we get a filter system please?
i wish we could all collectively vote on every single post's content - like they do over at slash dot.

it would save a lot of time and make DU more valuable, imho.

the only thing this tempest in a tea-pot adds up to at the end of the day as FREE PUBLICITY for DU and i'm still celebrating.

i am a little surprised that you don't realize that the establishment media see us as a threat, not to mention the powers that be, but this INTERNET phenomenon is only going to get bigger and more and more of future generations - if we survive the neoCONs - are going to get their information from the WWW.

it's not so much DU by itself is a threat it is us collectively all wired together, as open-source has proven, they - the establishment - CAN'T keep up.

thanks for sharing your thoughts :toast:

peace
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #30
39. Better yet, a rating system
Allowing folks to rate content like at slashdot?

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #39
49. they go hand-in-hand
we vote, then we set our own personal filter thresh-hold, so in theory the cream - the best posts - rises to the surface - are the post that are shown in your list... saves lots of time while browsing.

yes, exactly like /.

:hi:

peace
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #49
114. I don't want any of this. I don't like ratings wars.
Edited on Wed Jan-05-05 06:44 PM by jdj
I like the "information a la carte" format of DU. I don't think it will continue to be a "big tent" message board if a ratings system gets put in.

edit: on the other hand, DU will be self-diagnosing. If it becomes dominated by droll moderates with no imagination who never color outside of the lines, then it will begin to echo in here, and the admins will have to re-adjust.

I think we should shoot these media the bird, say thanks for the free publicity, and give them the Pop-eyes old axiom "I yam what I yam."
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #114
141. thats the beauty of it...
it's up to every individual, those who want EVERYTHING will continue to get EVERYTHING and those who just want the community rated BEST POSTS can get just those.

wait till we grow to 100k regular posters, then what?

besides it will cut down on bandwidth as well ;->

peace
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #141
266. because it's subjective
and only repukes march in lock-step.

I shouldn't knock it til I've tried it...whatever happens happens. I want to hear all the freaky theories, so I hope DU doesn't change.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #266
356. It's in place at DailyKos, too, and they are very big tent.
Give it a try; I think you'll like it.

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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #356
440. I don't read blogs.
For the express reason that I want alot of opinions not just one person's or one clique of people.

If all these other places do this, then what niche is DU supposed to fill by doing it as well?

Actually, I do read riverbend, but that is the only blog, because she has a perspective one can't get in the U.S.. I know DU just started calling itself one, but it really isn't. I actually think that that move, to put "The DU Blog" on the front page, was a mistake. A blog is a log by one person, therefore that one person takes heat for the content. This is what DU is being portrayed as in the NYT and apparently by Fox, yet DU is a message board, and now would have been a really good opportunity to point out the difference between a message board and a blog that happens to contain a message board. If this becomes "Skinner's Blog", then I probably won't visit that much, that kind of thing just doesn't appeal to me.
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Conspirationalist Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 04:15 AM
Response to Reply #39
327. "Filter" systems and ratings systems -
I have personal experience of neither, but both sound like a bad idea. Free speech is what blogs should be all about. And if you want to be REALLY well-informed - and fair - you know what? If you're interested in a thread, you should jolly well read the whole thing! Even putting people on "ignore" is not kosher to me.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #39
355. DailyKos does this too.
I like this idea very much. Once the trolls have been ignored long enough, they just slip away into oblivion, a very nice feature.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #30
59. I cut off Slashdot posts at 3 or 4.
My own posts there rarely float so high...

:-(

In any case, I think a slashdot style of moderation would destroy DU.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #59
67. likewise
and it serves me well.

i don't know why you think it will 'destroy DU'?

i can't read every post in most threads now as it is and as we grow it will only get WORSE.

we must do something to cut down on information overload and if we all get to vote on every post that would be fair, besides no one needs to use the filter if they think they must read every post in a thread.

very democratic and SMART for any POPULAR discussion board =)

:hi:

peace
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #67
156. "Karma whoring" and the "herd mentality" are very real things at Slashdot
To catch the attention of all the random moderators at slashdot you've got to dangle shiny things in front of them. Often this makes the writing dishonest. You can be wildly successful at places like Slashdot writing as a witty and handsome troll, but this comes at the expense of more honest posters.

At DU people are sorted out by their interests. I contribute to the topics I am most interested in, and the topics I know something about.

Any "filtration" system should be based on that. I don't see that my usual hangouts here, say "Environment and Energy" or "Science," are all that crowded.

The growth of General Discussion is probably self-limiting. As it gets too loud and fast in GD people move away from it, and as it quiets down they come back. Mostly, like the Lounge, it really doesn't matter which threads you decide to jump into and out of. Eventually you get a pretty good feeling for where and when the discussions that are most important to you might be, and a moderation system such as Slashdot's would hurt that.



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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #156
169. like i said before, it works both ways...
you don't have to filter anything out if you don't want to or you could apply it selectively like only in GD and/or the LOUNGE or where-ever...

the main thing is it's each individuals own choice and the whole community participates in the rating system and NOTHING gets deleted.

i see it as a win-win for everyone.

peace
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #169
184. No, it doesn't...
Any point-value system applied to posts decreases the overall honesty of the board.

The reason television news, especially local television news, is so bad is that they are competing for television viewers.

The reason slashdot is so bad is that people are competing for the moderators attention. Too many posts that rise to the top on slashdot, your so-called "cream," are composed by people who are not writing from their hearts, or even from their heads. Instead they are on the float in Mardi Gras, throwing shiny trinkets and candy to the ladies.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #184
192. yes it does - it isn't MANDATORY, hello...
/. is not 'bad' sheesh, they get more post and views than all the boards combined, shoot they kicked this whole thing off.

and it certainly helps me get to the golden-nuggets much more quickly.

shoot no system is perfect but that is better than information OVERLOAD which is what we are getting now.

i take the point system to encourage more thoughtful and positive posts and i am certainly all for that.

peace
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
31. A conspiracy thread for the sake of discussion
does no harm but multiples over several days on something like the horrible tsunami makes us look like unreasonable loonies.

Hitting alert will take care of the problem.

Thanks for letting us know about the NYT LTTE. I'll watch for it!
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txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
33. You might get something from the Times,
but don't expect Faux News to acknowledge your reply. They are so plainly Republican shills that they couldn't say a good thing about a democratic site if it meant life or death.

KKKarl Rove has to approve all of their reports anyway.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
35. I've said it before and I'll say it again
Edited on Wed Jan-05-05 05:08 PM by wyldwolf
With DU getting so much attention lately, and with the rightwing spinning DU as being an official part of the DNC (I actually had a shouting match with Neal Boortz over this - he claims his sources tell him DU is funded by the DNC), DU admins and mods really must check conspiracy theories on many topics and hold posters accountable to prove them or they'll be deleted.

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ashmanonar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #35
254. wait a minute...
people can have threads deleted bc they're posting a "conspiracy theory", yet people who post a thread about their cats won't?

boggling my mind...
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Old Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 03:54 AM
Response to Reply #35
321. Who is welcome on Democratic Underground, and who is not
Edited on Thu Jan-06-05 04:33 AM by Old Mouse
We welcome Democrats of all stripes, along with other progressives who will work with us to achieve our shared goals.

This is a "big tent" message board. We welcome a wide range of progressive opinion. You will likely encounter many points of view here that you disagree with.

Copied from the DU rules

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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 06:21 AM
Response to Reply #321
343. who said anyone wan't welcome?
I just think there should be stricter guidelines on what is passed on as "fact" here. We just found out that.

"Points of view" have nothing to do with it. Claiming that, for example, Wes Clark caused men to grow breasts, isn't true no matter what point of view you have. And saying or implying tsunami was caused by humans fits the same criteria - a crackpot theory that the media will decree is a philosphy of the democratic party.
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Old Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #343
452. The criteria for "fact" is opinion
not embarrassment.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #452
454. the criteria for fact is opinion? Really?
Explain that.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #35
357. DU associated with the DNC? IF ONLY; we're the redheaded stepchild.
I wish they would listen to us even if just a little.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #357
457. yeah, but only a little
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Frangible Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
36. Well said.
However, I worry the people you sent this to have demonstrated rather, ah, selective hearing already.
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slutticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
37. Thank you Skinner!
:yourock:
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Catchawave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
38. Proud to be a DUer...
Thanks Skinner and I'm nominating you for homepage :)
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BurgherHoldtheLies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #38
50. Same here.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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secedeeconomically Donating Member (380 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
41. The hypocrisy at Fox is amazing
I recently heard Tony Snow (one of there conservative hit men) on the radio. And one caller blames the Tsunami on God. Apparently according to this thespian of a caller, God wanted to punish south East Asians. Well guess what, snow said nothing just thanked her for her comments. Then that asshole turn around and quotes some left website regarding the possible reason for the Tsunami. This guy is a joke, I kick myself for wasting 20 minutes of my life listening to that joker.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #41
383. Apparently, Joe "Dead Woman in my Office"
...Scarborough did a show on that same subject last night. I heard the "wrath of God" teaser at the start of the program, so I exercised my right of free association and freed myself from association with that show by picking up the remote and switching to Comedy Central!
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indigobusiness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
42. It seems clear the dialog in response is far superior at DU
as pointed out in the NYTimes piece.

What was lost in the sniping over the Democratic Underground posting was the fact that the follow-up comments were a sober discussion of what actually causes earthquakes. The first response to the posting asked, "Earthquakes have been happening since the beginning of time ... How would you explain them?"

As opposed to the FR response, ie the examples you cite.

Seems like a compliment to me, too.
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antigone382 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
43. I'm impressed once again, Skinner!
Edited on Wed Jan-05-05 05:12 PM by antigone382
You're certainly right about one thing:

They say that all publicity is good publicity, and that is certainly true to some extent. Many of our members found this website because of some negative publicity we got elsewhere.

Checking in :hi:

Some of us are smart enough to know that one or two random posts on a discussion board aren't indicative of the entire community, and some of us are smart enough to check it out for ourselves. Introducing me to DU is the one and only thing I will *ever* thank Neal Boortz for.

Edited for HTML mistake.
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Lex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
44. This has been happening for YEARS to the gay community
by main stream media.

Ever go to a gay pride parade? 95% of the people there are just like your neighbors, friends, family. But what makes the news at 6 o'clock? The few who are dressed like Carmen Miranda.

Welcome to being propagandized against.


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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. Amen brother.
Men dressed like nuns in roller skates sells.
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complain jane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #44
51. Oh absolutely!
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SariesNightly Donating Member (237 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #44
80. Coordinated smears are what Replants do best
Here's how Jesus handles these bigots,

-----------------------
Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. (Matt. 7:1-5)
-----------------------

Where's the NYT articles concerning the neo/crazies at freerepublic?
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
47. My God, Faux I can understand, but the NYT apparently
...has yet ANOTHER SLOPPY JOURNALIST on their rolls. Singling out a few posts on a political website and then claiming that they reflect the majority opinion is simply BOGUS JOURNALISM. They should be ASHAMED of themselves.

And they wonder why people are turning away from mainstream media outlets? It's truly disturbing. Hell, the GOP owns all branches of government, and most of the media...why do they continue to fear the left, to ridicule us and attempt to silence us, to go out of their way to corral us, like protesters in those orange nets, to paint us all with their brush of paranoia...they obviously fear us, otherwise they wouldn't be working so hard to try to marginalize us--and the irony is, we actually BELIEVE IN SCIENCE. It's the faith-based crowd that thinks the man in the sky sent this as retribution, but where is that aspect in their lameass story?

I wonder how they can sleep at night--this is truly egregious behavior, and demonstrates an appalling lack of reporting standards by any measure. Ugh!
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YankeeFan Donating Member (217 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #47
227. The NYT is a Very Liberal Newspaper
I subscribe to their Internet Delivery Service, mail delivery costing too much for my budget.

Believe me when I say that if the NYT was to become more liberal we could easily become a subset of the Paper.

It's reasonable to say that because of the scandals they've been on the wrong side of that they're trying to become more balanced in their reporting.

Take this from Page 2
"Online discussion can evolve toward truth, said Clay Shirky, an adjunct professor in the interactive telecommunications program at New York University and a blogger. One result is a process that can be more reliable than many new media, where corrections are often late and small, if they appear at all."


I was a Poll Watcher last November. Like I said a few times before: There was no Hankey-Pankey around where I was stationed. If you were a Registered Voter you got to vote. Even after the Poll was closed; if you were in line you got to vote.

That being said too many people around here still think that the Election was fixed.

More people voted for Kerry than they did for Bush 2000. But Bush 2004 got even more votes than Kerry did.
As I was a Dean supporter I can believe that. (I still can't believe how weak the Kerry/Edwards ticket was.)

Senator Boxer is going to make more trouble for the Democrats with Ohio and the count. A lot of borderline Democrats are going to see what she is doing as a publicity stunt more than anything else and switch to the Republican Party. True, they will become borderline Republicans, but the danger is very real that they will stay Republican for the next Elections in 2006 and 2008.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #227
235. The NYT is trending rightward, and has been for some time
I read the NYT, and if that is what you call LIBERAL, you and I differ as to the definition of the term. Once upon a time, they were a liberal paper, but now they are wusses whose reporting has gotten sloppy over the years and who recycle shit that has already hit the cable networks. The real strong Pentagon Papers style reporting just is not happening with them anymore. They're all AFRAID. Occasionally incompetent, but mostly AFRAID.

And all Boxer is going to do is point out a couple of issues, like the number of Democrats who waited in line for twelve hours to vote, the number of Democrats who were sent from polling place to polling place, the number of Democrats who were told to wait or come back later because they lacked ballots, the number turned away although they had registered and were wrongfully purged....the old Karl Rove voter suppression tactics that made this election a fucking joke. The GOP districts made voting easier than taking a pee, but the Dems in many places had to climb Mt. Everest on one foot to cast their vote.

No one thinks the debate will change anything, but dammit, it needs to be said. And if "borderline Democrats" leave the party, fuck 'em, they aren't real Democrats. We are not a crew of fair weather types--and I am not scared that anyone will go anywhere. In fact, if anyone crosses the line in 06 or 08, it'll be the GOP, after they too get fucked sideways by the weecowboy. Unemployment has a way of doing that to people....!
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Acryliccalico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #235
296. Good post MADem
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #296
389. Thank you
I don't think I am the only one who is sick and tired of this "Be very afraid, do not question our authority" mentality that the GOP is pushing. It worked for a time in pre-WW2 Germany, but it cannot stand. I didn't spend more than two decades of my life "supporting and defending the Constitution of the United States" to have a bunch of rich, draft-dodging clowns tell me not to ask questions, or to be afraid of anything, except maybe my mama waving a high heel if I misbehaved as a youngster.

We earned our right to vote with the volunteer blood of our citizenry, and a bunch of greasy, fat, pomaded and perfumed old men are not going to take it from us. This discussion in the Senate is designed to make the American people, many of whom are blinded by ideological desire and a faux sense of team spirit, see that when you disenfranchise one, you disenfranchise us all.

If it ain't fair, it can't fly. That's the America I grew up in.
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truth2power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #389
398. thank you...
I am sick unto death of the "Oh, whatever will they think of us?" mantra.

First of all, those who are trashing liberals aren't what I would call thinkers by any definition.

Second, it's all part of the plan. Whatever we do, they'll find a reason to piss and moan. Screw 'em, says I!
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el_gato Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #235
367. NYT is good a presenting a liberal facade but it is phoney

don't forget that they were instrumental in justifying the invasion of iraq via erroneous reporting. Judith Miller breathlessly reported every possible fear inducing scenario regarding weapons of mass destruction. The whole point was to manufacture consent for a preordained policy.

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Downtown Hound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
52. Kick and nominated
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kaitykaity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
53. I expect nothing less than this crap from a paper that
still has the likes of Judith Miller on staff.

She acts as basically a stenographer for the Bush WH WMD line
and yet she still has a job.

:puke:
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
54. Huzzah to Skinner!
Good response, that really SHOULD be as widely circulated as a press release.
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SheWhoMustBeObeyed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
55. Thank you, and my compliments
on what looks to be an excellent letter to the NYT. I started to write one yesterday but was so wrought up that it kinda came out "pbbllllfffft, so there," so I deleted it in hopes someone would write something more elegant. If they don't publish it, will you post it in its entirety here?

Again, as always,

:yourock:
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GOPFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #55
74. LOL
I can't tell you how many LTTEs I've written that never get sent because after the fist civil paragraph my writing explodes into angry rants! Kudos to Skinner for keeping his cool and responding so, so ....responsibly. How unblog-like!

:evilgrin:
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #55
95. I dunno,I kind of like that LTTE myself
Of course,I've never been one for excessive verbiage :)
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Dora Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
56. Well-written and well-timed.
I was out of the loop since mid-Dec, and it explained much to me. Thanks, Skinner!
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Shrek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
57. What are the parameters of "Kooky" ?
Can you give a few guidelines?
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HalfManHalfBiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #57
69. Here is one: The belief that humans caused the 9.0 earthquake is kooky.
Top of the list.
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gatorboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #57
73. I'm interested in this as well..
9/11 pod theories? No plane hitting the Pentagon?

Should we now delete the Wiccan section, since that would also be looked down upon on Fox?

As silly as the tsunami theory is, I also don't enjoy the idea of buckling down for these people just because they post about the DU for a day. The Freerepublic bleeds conspiracy crap. I know one individual that can't stop talking about the 100's of individual's Clinton had assassinated and no one bats an eye over this stuff.
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HeeBGBz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #73
92. 911/Pentagon no plane is on my conspiracy theory list
Is it real or not? The difference in opinion varies with knowledge.

I do not believe either the tsunami or the earthquake are the result of any manmade device. However, I do believe nuclear blasts underground or not effect the equilibrium of the planet. Call me wacky.

I once got ridiculed by my college economics teacher. He asked the question "If 3/4 of the trees on the planet were destroyed what would be resulting problems?" I told him it would seriously depleted the world's oxygen supply. He laughed at me for several minutes in front of the class before he continued. I dropped that class the next day.

If you are going to be a free thinker, it's gonna take a thicker skin for all involved. Geez, ridicule them back. They are a hell of a lot weirder than we are. Hands down.

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YankeeFan Donating Member (217 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #92
212. I Hate to be the One to Tell You This, But...
While trees supply much of the earths oxygen, the Oceans supply most of the O that the world breathes.

You can thank plankton for that.

Your Professor knew that and you didn't.
Now suck it up and learn from your mistake.
And remember: in many colleges the Professors get graded by the students. Just how good a teacher was Professor Hyena? That's something to remember.
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HeeBGBz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #212
226. Why do you hate to tell me?
I'm all for education. You almost taught me a fact.

Then you told me to suck it up and learn from my mistake. What mistake? I was asked a question. Obviously, my mistake was participating. If my reply was in error, I should have an explanation rather than laughter or ridicule. The difference between a teacher and a knowledge snob.

Those who Know-So-Very-Much surely must reign over those of us who are merely Inquisitive Thinkers.

Professor Hyena failed miserably in human interaction. As do many who wield their collection of obscure facts and knowledge like a golden sledgehammer upon the yet-to-be-informed masses.

The lesson is rudeness. I would forever prefer an uninformed kindhearted wacko to a bully genius.
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Donkeyboy75 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #73
104. I can't understand why so many DUers think we are
Edited on Wed Jan-05-05 06:22 PM by Donkeyboy75
some sort of anti-FR. We should be, and usually are, better than that. Sinking to their level only makes us look as crazy as they are.
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
61. Bravo!!!! n/t
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
62. Thank You Very Much, Skinner! Really!
Edited on Wed Jan-05-05 05:30 PM by David Zephyr
I am very glad to see that you did respond and there isn't a single word of what you have written above that I am not in wholehearted support of and in agreement with.

I am also very happy to see that you have pointed out what the Free Republic posters write. I tried to make this same point yesterday in this post which I titled, "Why Won't The "Liberal Media" Report on the F.R.'s Blatant Racism?" (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph... )

The fact that the NY Times would single out the DU for a few kooky posts and give a pass to the scurrilous posts that fill the Free Republic every single day, posts that are poisonous with violence, racism, sexism, homophobia and extreme xenophobia signals JUST HOW INTIMIDATED THE NEW YORK TIMES is with regards to the radical right wing now.

The massive and organized e-mails and phone-ins of threats by the slavish audiences of Rush Limbaugh, Fox News and Karl Rove's minions have succeeded in castrating CBS, dethroning Dan Rather, canceling television programs and in terminating the careers of newspaper journalists around the country. The New York Times management got the message loud and clear.

Everyone in Washington, D.C. and in the media knows that prominent Republican Leaders post at the Free Republic along with some of the most sick postings imaginable. The editorial staff at the NY Times knows this and yet, cowardly chooses to go after the DemocraticUnderground. Why? Because they are afraid of the bully and so they join in with the bully in fear that they will be next.
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President Kerry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #62
117. thank you for your post.
Very eloquent and true. And Skinner - Man you just rock!
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
64. It Will Be A Pleasure, Sir
To leave off geological combats, and repair to my accustomed Levantine haunts....

"LET' GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"
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bunkerbuster1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
68. Spendidly put.
There are times I'm really, really proud of this site. This is one of those times. Nice work.

Fight the power, bro.
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Beware the Beast Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
70. Excellent refutation.
But naturally, the damage is done. Said "lazy journalists" would never retract their story based on your official statement. Such is the way with the media these days. Again, thank you for your feedback on this matter.
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MonkeyJoe Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
71. Man, if that doesn't blow it out of the water. Huzzah!
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VioletLake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
72. DU rocks my world! Thank you, Skinner, Elad, and EarlG! :)
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SW FL Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
75. Great Post - thanks DU Admins
for standing up for the rest of us.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
77. Y'know... in all honesty
Very cool stuff, Skinner.

Y'know... in all honesty I had my doubts about you and some of the other moderators when I first registered here in Jan. of 2000 (but with the Top 10 Conservative Idiots list posted every week, how could I stay away?), yet you've illustrated yourself as an even-handed and level-headed administrator of a top notch website.

I guess I'd like to take this opportunity to say, "Thanks for a great website and the job you and the others have done in keeping it fresh, interesting and above all: Democratic!

I spend more time at DU than any other website- it's entertaining, informative and keeps me grounded in the belief that I'm not the last suriving liberal in the Western Hemisphere.

You've got my best thoughts coming atcha, baby!
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imax2268 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
78. KICKING...
Well said Skinner...well said...

:kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick:
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Redneck Socialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
81. Hmmm, a bit of an over reaction don't 'cha think?
Faux news doesn't like us? There's a shocker. :eyes: As for the NYT, I don't think we should trouble ourselves overmuch about what any MSM thinks of DU.

Removing nutty Tsunami posts is a bit much. There is a lot of loony crap posted every day. Most of it gets rebutted quickly and well. For the most part the DU community does a pretty good job of self policing and self correcting.

If Kooky Konspiracy posts are gonna get yanked can we yank the nutty 9/11 posts that still pop up from time to time too?
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #81
89. exactly
the whole community is greater than the sum of its parts

we demand links and we got a paper trail, which i love to bookmark and pass around - you know rove and crew HATE that :evilgrin:

peace
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Maeve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:36 PM
Original message
Once again, Boss, I have to say it
:yourock:

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pmbryant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:36 PM
Response to Original message
82. Thanks, Skinner. I do have one concern.
If some people are going to gravitate to off-the-wall conspiracy theories, I think it is probably beneficial to have at least a few threads here about them, so that they can be thoroughly debunked.

So I worry about the policy of simply making these threads "go away."

Certainly plenty of the people who post kooky threads are not trolls, though I suspect a few who do may be.

It is a tough situation.

:shrug:

Peter
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #82
160. I agree. I also think that people should be able to post...
...what may seem like "kooky conspiracy theories" as a way to think freely and openly about why things happen the way they do. If the theory is quickly debunked, no harm is done. But some "kooky conspiracy theories" actually turn out to have at least a little merit. Putting a strangle hold on free thought if it doesn't seem rational is a bit much. How else do we arrive at a shared concept of what is rational?

People may decide that I'm kooky because I lean toward LIHOP/MIHOP. Likewise, I may consider someone else's whole religion kooky.

Progressivism a big tent and we need self-policing in order to decide what most of us agree is rational and acceptable. We need to learn to agree to disagree on the rest of it. Certain liberal principles cannot be compromised, but other than that, hey, let us reason together!
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curse10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
83. I'm glad admin took the time to address this
We shouldn't have to put up with be represented in a false manner. I expect nothing less from Fox news, but the Times should have shown at least an ounce of journalistic integrity.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #83
466. The ball's in the Times' court.
Let's see if they print Skinner's letter.

If not, we know they are the turds of the BFEE their history shows them to be.

From my perspective: If someone has something to say that adds to what we know. Cool.

If someone writes or repeats something for the sake of spreading hatred, or confusion or even dumbing us down. That's not cool.

Either way, I don't own the place and decide what stays and what goes. That's cool, too.
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DebJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
84. TV news is being creamed and increasingly discredited by the
internet. This is their way of fighting for their profits and even more, for fighting to be the powers that dictate 'truth'. They have to take 'us' down on the net...we are the enemy of their profits and their falsehoods, n'est ce pas?
By the way, one of the greatest functions of DU is the ability to discredit rumors. I myself have posted threads asking for verification or the discrediting of info I received. Within an hour or two, voila! Truth revealed.
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neuvocat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #84
88. 100% agree.
I've been of that opinion for quite some time now. It may be a slow process but it is gaining momentum.

That being said, its entirely possible that someone had deliberate intentions of trying to discredit DU and other sites from providing more comprehensive coverage than the commercial-driven networks.

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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #84
163. And I've been set straight more than once.
It's important that we become slaves to reason and the truth. But that can't happen if information is stifled. Case in point: the mainstream media.

Why should we do what they want us to do?

Otherwise, Skinner, I thought your points were spot-on. And of course, you found the usual right-wing hypocrisy. Sigh. Where there is hypocrisy, there is a Republican.
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d_b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
86. Great post
Edited on Wed Jan-05-05 05:47 PM by d_b
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smurfygirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
87. Thank you!!!
Wonderful Post.

I'm so glad to see DU on top of this. If Fox News wants to find a real kook maybe they should start with their own Bill O'Reilly. That would be to much work though. Everyone knows Fox doesn't have any real journalists. They just hire people to report what the AP and the newspapers have already reported. Since when has Fox News had a breaking story of their own? Answer that Fox.
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
90. THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I've been worried that we had been invaded by trolls trying to destroy the credibility of what has been a very useful website.

In my experience, democrats, by and large, are more interested in dealing with the reality of situations as opposed to the idiotic "theories" propounded by these tsunami crackpots.

We have enough trouble with RW fundies trying to bring back the Dark Ages with their faith based science, etc. We sure as hell don't need it on the left and my suspicion is that these errant posters are either RW poseurs or truly deranged folks who don't have a rational scientific or political stance.

Many thanks
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Patsy Stone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
91. Excellent!
I don't know what the point of this whole little flurry of DU activity was today either, but good for you for responding. Thanks.
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Gelliebeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
93. These two so-called pieces of journalism
is another example of the laziness the MSM has now reduced itself to.

FOX claims that they are responsible and truthful yet perpetuate dishonest thirty second sound bytes. Shame on them. It is typical of FOX and no one should really be surprised as they have a hard time presenting themselves as a credible news organization anyway.

As for the NYT article, apparently ethics in journalism now means throw it out there and let the truth sort itself out....tsk tsk tsk Haven't they learned their lesson from their own past when they had to apologize to the American Public for not investigating the reason George Bush took our country to war. It was so much easier to report WMD because the White House said so. I guess they have reverted back to using novice reporters to investigate their stories.

It's a shame that these organizations haven't been willing to take George Bush to task over the various inaccuracies and irresponsible behavior he has exuded since taking office.

I guess it's easier to take an anonymous post from a progressive message board and make it the root of all evil. After all who will investigate their practices?

:eyes:

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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
94. Well said, Skinner.
This tells me one thing. FoxNews and even those on NYTimes who are afraid of what we represent (educated Americans who demand better news reporting) are afraid of us! So much so that they'll go through great lengths to discredit us.
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Shopaholic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #94
96. Face it--this is what the MSM has been reduced to-
making the progressive side look like kooks to please their media masters, all the while ignoring the down-right hatred and bigotry and lunacy of the right-wing. We should ALL contact the NY Times and demand that they highlight the "best of" Freeperville for all to see.
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Old Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
97. I would respectfully voice my dissent
While I personally do not believe Bush wields a super-weapon, I find this blanket denial of all such discussion alarming.

DU is not just a counterbalance to the far right, it is a collection of opinions, intellects and people with connections and resources. Many people who are far left in thought can and do use the accumulated knowledge of the vast DU membership to test their thoughts and politics, to gain insight and education.

But to disassociate our far-left brethren by labeling them 'kooks' and trolls and to deny them a forum for discussion and feedback because we feel embarrassed by their speculations is highly un-democratic. Should we shut down the religion and spirituality forums? There's a lot of unsound science in there as well.

I truly mean no disrespect, but if confused, frightened but well meaning people cannot ask their political questions HERE without being called kooks...
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #97
100. if you want to test thoughts on the DU membership
then do so, but please, accept that the tsunami was caused by a massive earthquake. Please.
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Old Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #100
101. ?
Exactly how does that pertain to my post?
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #101
103. this particular thought has been tested.
If you want to test, then test, but listen to the results.
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Old Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #103
105. I really don't understand you
do you speak of the tsunami, or of people who post of such?
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #105
109. from your original post
Many people who are far left in thought can and do use the accumulated knowledge of the vast DU membership to test their thoughts and politics, to gain insight and education.

My point is that, if you're going to use DUers for insight and education (a worthy use, no doubt), then one needs to listen to that insight and accept that education. The tsunami wasn't caused by global warming (which I do believe exists) or by a nuclear test (although I wouldn't put it past this administration to begin testing nuclear devices underwater). It was caused by an earthquake. It's just science.

This will be my last post on the topic, since I don't want to get into an argument on Skinner's thread. Besides, it's almost dinner time. :)
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Old Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #109
120. You make a great assumption
I do NOT debate the disaster. I debate intellectual elitism.
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HeeBGBz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #109
271. Insight is better shared with a smile than with a whip
Why should any one person accept the facts of a knowledge bully?
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #109
362. As you pointed out in your post:
Now that all these supernations have seen the potential damage of a tsunami, it concerns me that what is forbidden to say today, is something that our government and/or others might consider for the future.

I do believe this particular tsunami was the result of teutonic plates shifting. A DUer had talked about it months ago and had predicted such a catastrophic event. Too bad the New York Times doesn't know how to use our archives to come up with that prediction and give DU the right kind of recognition.
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ashmanonar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #362
426. lol
"teutonic plates"- germanic plates? ;)
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truthseeker1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #100
199. yes, sheeple, get back in line.....eom
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #199
401. sheeple?
Does science make you a sheep?

On second thought, y'all go on with your bad selves. The tsunami was caused by a falafel.
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #97
111. I second.
and people have pet conspiracies. Some are LIHOP but don't think the election was stolen, some think the repukes had something to do with Wellstone's death but would never go so far as to support the 9/11 conspiracies. I personally hold the belief that "more will be revealed", so to speak. Conservatives like to say that some people have such an open mind that the truth just passes right through, but I'm willing to take that risk, considering that the alternative is having such a stove-tight mind that no shred of truth can get in.

But it's not my site, so I'll respect whatever decision the admins make. I'm not posting any kooky tsunami conspiracy theories (can we just say ktct's?) but I have copied and pasted all the links people have put up regarding how humans may contribute to natural disasters.
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bobbyboucher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #97
134. I second.
Edited on Wed Jan-05-05 07:20 PM by bobbyboucher
So what if a conspiracy theory or two float up to the top. The discussions that follow pretty much play them out.

Why don't we just call Faux News and ask them what topics are OK and what topics they are going to ridicule, then we won't have to feel embarrassed. Kay?

Skinner is right to call them on their bullshit. But their cherry-picking of posts and replies is a conspiracy in and of itself, no?
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HeeBGBz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #134
213. All's well, that's Orwell
Also, the deletion of threads makes it difficult to go over the conversation in context and in it's absence, the content is blown out of porportion.

It's like taunting a homophobe. Only with wackophobes. If you accuse a homophobe of being gay, he will overreact and do anything possible to appear Macho. While the non-phobe is not threatened by accusations. Accuse a wackophobe of being wacko and they will act out against that which they fear they see in themselves or what others see in them. Then they attack the reflection of their fears. To boost their credibility, they become the Gods of Facts and Science and denying the opinions of those who sometimes only want to ask a question and be taught something, rather than be attacked.

I hope the idea I am tryin to express is clear. I really love this place. I just become upset with holier-than-thous or brainier-than-thous and rude people. Striking out in all directions with harshness among the ranks is really detrimental to our purpose and vision. We are more than that.
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #97
281. Self-delete. DFTT.
Edited on Thu Jan-06-05 01:44 AM by JohnLocke
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #97
284. As always. Polite, refreshing and astute. Thank you. n/t
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 06:14 PM
Response to Original message
99. excellent, Skinner.
:thumbsup:
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Carni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
106. Let me get this straight/-FOX &NYT's=conspirators Iraq "45 minute claim"
I believe that if you tune into FOX on any given day they are STILL insinuating that the WMD *could exist* and... and... they MIGHT have been moved to Syria (bla bla bla)because certain "sources" believe that they have been!

Let us not forget that Judith Miller (via Chalabi) in the New York Times wrote that Saddam... even though all the weapons inspectors said the bush admin was full of crap HAD the illusive weapons and he could even reign down poison on America in 45 minutes (I guess he was going to bring it by camel)

If I were to even ATTEMPT to try to illustrate all the conspiracy minded bullshit coming out of the mainstream media over the last five years I would spend the rest of my life typing this post...but someone posts something on DU titled "another stupid earthquake question" and the site gets mention on NYT's and FAUX as a hornet's nest of loons?

Now forgive me... but the NYT's and FOX are supposed to employ journalists, not Tom, Dick and Harry exchanging commentary on George Bush and what they think he has done to the country etc.

BTW the Whitehouse issued a statement yesterday stating a small group of conspiracy theorists in the Congress are trying to get a senator to contest the election--it received mention on either CNN or MSNBC (with the brief WH statement)

I personally don't think John Conyers is a tin foil hatter and the point I am trying to illustrate is that this is IMO a talking point hit job.

Now I will get called a conspiracy theorist again... but a tremendous amount of activism regarding the recounting of votes etc is coming from WHAT SOURCE? OH YEAH THAT WOULD BE DU! Gee, what a coincidence!

Even if there is no election fraud (and everyone seems to have a different opinion on that) there are people posting things on DU that are not flattering to the WH regarding the last election.

The WH certainly doesn't want issues of illegitimacy raised about the election (that's a no brainer)

After 2000 when Bush detractors were fighting for their right to a free and untampered with presidency... we were "fringe"

Now we are all *conspiracy* types and with all due respect editing out what might be construed as crap will not solve DU's problems.

If you ask me this site is on their radar (so to speak and that is not to infer that I believe the Government is using microwave technology to track the websites of progressives)

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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #106
130. We most definitely post things on this site
that the bush administration and most of the mainstream media don't want people to know.

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Carni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #130
146. That is most definitely Faux's motivation
As to the NYT's they were certainly used as the drum banger publication that lead us to war in Iraq.

Has Judith Miller faced any retribution BTW for her fabulous *reporting*??

Was she even fired?
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #106
167. "this is IMO a talking point hit job."
Spot on! Are we going to change DU because Faux News and the NYT made fun of a few posts? That would be caving, IMHO.
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Carni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #167
182. Faux has taken some heavy hits - their reputation is now really laughable
I think pious Bill O'Lielly being busted with his vibrators, loofahs etc was the nail in their coffin.

To anyone but a die hard right winger they are pretty much a joke only to be watched for entertainment value.

I agree with you...to an extent, censorship would be caving.


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hatredisnotavalue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
107. I saw the devastation at ground zero
And I mean the backlash, not the acutal tsunami.
By Tuesday morning, Dec. 27, I was aghast at the inaction of "our" government. There was little I could do for the victims except call Doctors Without Borders and make a donation. Stewing, stewing, there must be something else I could do, I thought.
Then it came to me. I do web sites and I contacted all of the web site owners and asked them if I could put a link to the "How can I help" list of donor organization on MSNBC. No problem, they said. I also asked a couple of local web designers to do the same. Wednesday morning, my suggestion on the local web page was there. No problem and it was prominately displayed on the web site. By Tuesday, this week, it had become a "suggested link from a reader" and on Tuesday it included a "Support Our Troops link, which went to a pro-fit org. Today, the web designer also added the link of the the official US effort, USAID.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
108. The NYTimes writer was defended on one of our threads.
I'll have to try and find it.
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Carni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #108
112. Yes, apparently his editor did a lot of editing
According to someone who posted that they know the writer.
(I have forgotten what the posters name was)
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Mike Niendorff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 06:29 PM
Response to Original message
110. Thank you!

> How we feel about kooky tsunami conspiracy theories

> We think they're a bunch of crap, and we believe most -- if not all --
> DU members think they're a bunch of crap. We do not wish to see them
> posted on our website. If anyone posts a kooky tsunami conspiracy
> theory on our website, we would like to know about it so we can remove
> it and then investigate the person who posted it as a possible troll.


This is WAY overdue, and the board already reads better for it.


MDN


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Florida_Geek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
115. I have mixed feelings about some things you say.
I do know Bush wants to re-start nuclear testing.

And IMHO, Bush would allow a nuclear test to be performed if he thought he could get away with it.

Could a badly placed nuclear weapon on a fault line trigger an earthquake early, maybe. In California they monitor the stress between the plates and when the stress builds to a point, they know an earthquake will happen within the next X years. The key is early. If the Pacific plates were at a stess level that an earthquake was only a matter of years, it would have happened with or without help from a nuclear weapon.

During the days after the earthquake, I posted and watch the Net for information on Diego Garcia AFB. But in the end, there was nothing strange going on there. Had the island been evalulated before the earthquake that would have been troubling.

An old saying "Remember there is no such thing as a dumb question--only those unasked are dumb. "


IMHO with the large number of people and posts per day, if somebody want to make DU look bad, they will be able to find something to bitch about.






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evolvenow Donating Member (800 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #115
150. Is Free Speech Free? I am saddened at the censorship happening as a re-
action to Faux and the NYT, who has had multiple appearances on MSM to boast about B*sh' s Stealection having been won "fair and square".

These MSM organizations support and amplify the messages of WAR Criminals.

I have been an active, relentless advocate for human rights, animal rights, environmental rights and a published author with a core of promoting the ideas of compassion and non-violence for over 30 years. I have had a site for over ten years, promoting non-violence. There are horrific and violent acts that are being perpetrated on innocent people and animals, all over the world.
These events are connected. If we do not monitor these events, then we have failed as a witnesses to unacceptable behavior. I have first-hand, witnessed things you would never believe, but these exist, and they have devastating consequences. I do not have answers, I am simply asking questions, posting articles and looking for accountability, and in the process, hopefully, we will become better prepared, have improved communications and warning systems to prevent such massive and tragic loss of life, natural or man-made.
That is why I have devoted so much time to the investigation of the hijacked Stealection, and the degradation of civil rights, and to fight the illegal genocide in Iraq. I will never stop examining the clues nor abandon the fight for justice.

I am most concerned with the way that the MSM is already making this monumental disaster a political story. It is sickening to hear Geb talking about the fact that this will not be a "quick fix", and that they will be there a very long time. The countries are unhappy about this. The hatred for America is fueled by this administrations violent choices. Again, this is not representative of the people, who are very concerned and compassionate...it is the MSM and the administration+ and that is why we must continue to ask questions.

It is alarming that I must edit questions I feel are important to look at, in terms of the larger whole. I will continue to watch these stories closely. I will continue to report and alert many people to support organizations that are doing fantastic humanitarian work, with money and promotion, on my own site. I believe that as a group, humanity has to evolve into a more intelligent society, that refuses to cause harm to anyone.

The only way that cruelty, torture and the murder and rape of people and the planet will ever lessen and transform, will be through the revealing of the truth.
What happens in secrecy, keeps these heinous actions in motion.

The ability to have discussions and consider the big, ugly questions, is one of the last rights we have in this country.

Sadly, I had hoped that I had found a forum for free speech...
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Ediacara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #150
427. Oh get off it!
You have been a relentless voice promoting the kookiest of the kooky concerning the tsunami. No amount of data will change your mind. You don't want a discussion, instead you just want to spam kookiness. Free speach you say! You can't call for free speach, yet refuse to engage in actual discussion.
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HeeBGBz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #115
245. Watch out, Florida Geek, you're thinking again.
Somebody bring in the Ruler of Rationality to measure your level of stable thought processes. "Could bees" are dangerous territory.

/sarcasm
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
116. The old adage: "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em" is worth considering.
MSM and the Corporations running it have not been able to beat the DU. Seems likely some would 'join it' when they can do so anonymously and post anything they want. There have sure been a lot of productive, helpful and well intentioned DUers who have been frustrated to the point of not posting much if at all by some of the foolishness going on of late.

They haven't beaten the DU. Thanks, Skinner, crew & mods plus the many regulars who make this place the interesting, educational place it is.

If the NYT doesn't have the sense of fair play and decency to run Skinner's letter, we need to let them know we stand by our forum and ask why they choose not to entertain opposing views. Omissions are as telling as what is said/written/published.
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Child_Of_Isis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #116
256. They haven't beaten the DU.
Sadly, I think that they have. When I saw the post and read this thread, I felt the same as when John Kerry conceded. The very same.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #256
407. Meant Rove's followers are joining DU cuz they couldn't stop us from
the outside. The right has long used the method of getting people inside then having them promote methods, actions not in the group's original philosophy.

The sixties have a long list of such actions.
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
118. well . . . although I see your point, the fact remains that . . .
a former U.S. Secretary of Defense confirmed that weapons may indeed exist that can cause earthquakes . . . I would hate to think that the topic is taboo just because someone accuses us of posting "kooky tsunami theories" . . . what if one of those theories turns out to be true? . . . not saying it is, mind you, but I certainly don't think we can foreclose the possibility . . . jmho . . .

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/12/307042.shtml

(snip)

SAID IN APRIL 1997 BY THE U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE, WILLIAM COHEN: "Others are engaging even in an eco-type of terrorism whereby they can alter the climate, set off earthquakes, volcanoes remotely through the use of electromagnetic waves... So there are plenty of ingenious minds out there that are at work finding ways in which they can wreak terror upon other nations... It's real, and that's the reason why we have to intensify our efforts." --- Secretary of Defense William Cohen at an April 1997 counterterrorism conference sponsored by former Senator Sam Nunn. Quoted from DoD News Briefing, Secretary of Defense William S. Cohen, Q&A at the Conference on Terrorism, Weapons of Mass Destruction, and U.S. Strategy, University of Georgia, Athens, Apr. 28, 1997.

"In short,...the Secretary of Defense of the United States confirmed that there are indeed novel kinds of EM weapons, right now and have been for some time, which have been and are being used to (1) initiate earthquakes, (2) engineer the weather and climate, and (3) initiate the eruption of volcanoes. We wrote about those exact uses of the weaponry decades ago. Several nations now have such weapons. Three of them (two on one side and the other on a hostile side) are even firing practice shots into Western Australia, as a convenient test range." .

- more . . .

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/12/307042.shtml
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #118
137. Thank you
The more I read of this thread, the more I think of this "decision," the more aghast I am. I don't happen to think that this earthquake and this tsunami were caused by humans -- but there ARE technologies out there in development if not in use which could create such havoc. HAARP is one, as was aluded to elsewhere.

Absolutely none of the posts I've seen holding up science -- of tectonics or physics, etc., yadayada, -- as ironclad proof against these "conspiracy theories" have been at all convincing. Even Skinner's post above where he cites the science of tectonic plates (or whatever) offers no appreciation that humans CAN do and have done things with the technologies we have which trigger tectonic movement.

Shutting down this discussion realitically prevents THAT discussion as well.

Further, it's abominable that THEY are calling this a conspiracy theory and WE are buying it. Where's the conspiracy? Whose benefit? None. The worst is that there were some kind of underwater tests or other activities that may have triggered it. Where's the conspiracy?

It breaks my heart that because this seems outside the realm of the possible, I suppose you'd call it, and because DU has attracted the unflattering attention of some MSM (blech), that admin is taking this very counterproductive step.

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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #137
187. I would be very upset if any of your threads were shut down, Eloriel.
Especially if it was done by some pompous-ass-self-righteous science geek.

(I speak as a science geek who is, at times, a very self righteous and pompous ass.)



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Mike Niendorff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #137
195. with all due respect, El:

Anyone can fabricate a quote and post it to indymedia. Unless you've verified this stuff for yourself, I'd be *very* wary of accepting it at face value.


MDN


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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #195
443. but there's the rub.
that's my responsibility, to fact check or not to fact check.

I don't need a baby-sitter here.
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Mike Niendorff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #443
453. no rub about it.

Communities like DU don't just happen out of the blue. Skinner and the rest have worked extremely hard to create and maintain this place, and I think it's crazy to ask them to just let a bunch of nuts and vandals come in and trash the place or turn it into Art Bell Central. If that feels like babysitting to you, well, so be it.


MDN
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uncle ray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #137
207. and thank YOU
i agree with what you just said 100%.

thank you for having the courage to speak out. it took me a long time to have the courage to post here at DU, now to be made to feel not welcome...i just don't know.
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #137
442. I'm starting to feel better.
They missed LIHOP, MIHOP, the Stolen election, Wellstone, Scarborough's dead intern, etc,

But now they are drawing attention to DU for THIS?

Does anyone else not find it ironic that the one conspiracy theory they are accusing us off is the one that isn't linked to prominent republican figures??

People are missing the boat, this is the "safe" conspiracy theory to jump on, the others they didn't dare bring attention to.

So all of the doubters can kiss my tail, for the above is my conspiracy theory about the conspiracy against DU conspiracy theories.

DU had been heavily associated with Bev Harris for couple years, they could have nailed DU on that as she seems to have continued unraveling, but that one was too risky to touch...but the tsunami, theres an ace in the hole.

It really is alarming, Eloriel. I hope that this isn't a sign that DU will have increasing censorship the more attention and acclaim it gets.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #118
162. I guess William Cohen's thread would be locked. Lt Col Stanislav Lunev,
the highest ranking Soviet military-intelligence officer to defect to the United States, would be too kooky for the house. In his autobiography Through the Eyes of the Enemy he writes that the Soviet Union developed and tested seismic weapons in the 1980s.

"Watch what you say. Watch what you do."

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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #118
280. You will never convince those who are "embarrassed"
Edited on Thu Jan-06-05 01:41 AM by Tinoire
but kill two birds with one stone. Post the DOD defense link instead because then the arguments fall morph from "he never said any such thing" to "that's not what he meant" to "he was speaking hypothetically".

http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/1997/t042897_t04...

But Secretary of State William Cohen is, I suppose, a conspiracy theorist and such talk must be stopped immediately lest the Democratic Party look "kooky". That was Kucinich's greatest sin- looking "kooky" by pushing for a congressional bill banning the development and testing of "tectonic weapons". Embarrassing conspiracy kooks bereft of "sound science", both of them.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #280
411. Exactly. Is William Cohen, ex Sec. of State a "conspiracy theorist"?
People seem to be developing Galileo complex in record numbers.
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #280
447. what would people talk about here anyway if we aren't
speculating on the absolute limits of the evil of the republican party?

I mean, hell I can just watch the news if I want that.

So LBN and the Lounge will survive, but GD might die an untimely death. I propose a compromise...since we can't post ktct's then the admins should make it against the rules to post any crap from FR, Lucianne, NewsMax, WND, Drudge, or any of the other embarassments.

But then GD will be empty.
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dreamcollector Donating Member (180 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 06:47 PM
Response to Original message
119. I THINK IT'S VERY INTERESTING THAT THE NYT
and TIME magazine have mentioned DU recently. I believe it means that you have influence and they know it. I wouldn't worry about mainstream news folk attempting to discredit important rival sources of information. They know people are turning away from them in droves if they want real news. Any intelligent person consults numerous sources for information and it is becoming obvious that the msm doesn't cut it. I wrote to the NYT last month scolding them for not printing the really important stuff and complaining that I had to get all my real news from alternate sources on the internet. But I said, "I just LOVE your recipes and book reviews and all that fluffy stuff, at least you're good for something." How many others have written to complain? Lots, I'll bet and they can see the writing on the wall. And as far as DUs reputation is concerned intelligent people very quickly discover whether they can trust a web site or not. You learn to be selective. I regularly check Rense and some other sites that have some far out questionable stuff because I often find something of value there. But I can tell the difference between nutty stuff and real information. Don't worry DU users aren't stupid and they dang well know it. You can bet the NYT thinks DU is a threat. And it is. Take what's going on in Ohio. That's the single most important issue in the U.S right now. What has the NYT got to say about it? Nothing. I am desparate to know what's happening in Ohio. The NYT goes on about the Ukraine. Get serious! Of course intelligent readers are going to DU and other places that have real news of real importance. The msm should be deeply deeply ashamed. I told them that. I don't know why they aren't blushing all over themselves. I also mentioned that what news they do print is false and that they will have to keep on apologizing. It didn't end with Judith Miller --- or whatever her name was. I never believed there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq cuz I read it online somewhere that Collin Powell said in 1998 that they had none, had destroyed what they had and had no capability. He was quoted online and the NYT blathers on about WMD. It was disgusting and completely unbelievable. But I'm Canadian. The rest of the world knew it was all lies from the get-go. I think the NYT STINKS! But as I said the recipes and stuff are fun.
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pinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
121. Kudos, Skinner. n/t
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Miami Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
122. Thank you Skinner!
:yourock:
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HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 06:57 PM
Response to Original message
124. You know what? This is fucking stupid - as a reporter....
Edited on Wed Jan-05-05 07:08 PM by HEyHEY
I think it's laughable the NEW YORK TIMES is quoting a website...A FUCKING WEBSITE... to gauge any form of public opinion.
The internet is the biggest bathroom wall in the world. And these "Journalists" pretend they can take seriously the accusations of a few people and report it as a portrayal of the whole site? Disgusting.... do you realize the kind of credentials you need to work at the Times? Most people have masters and degrees from the best Journalism programs in the world. SO how can they produce such uniformed crap?
I'll tell you, there are two possible reasons.
1: Lazy fuckers. I guess if the paper on your wall says "Columbia" automatically you don't have to do work because everything you touch turns to gold.
2: It was done on purpose, I'm the first one to scoff at conspiracy theories involving the media, I don't believe in them. But what I do think COULD have happened is some right wing dick reporter decided he was going to take a shot at us and his editor probably assumed he did his homework, when he clearly did not.

Either way.... I won't be making my trip to the newstand on Sunday to pick up my $8 weekend copy of the times for a while. It's too much money to be lied to.
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #124
128. HeyHey
Very very good post, and I totally agree. What a shabby little rag the NYT has come to be. I mean FUX news is no surprise, they are the National Enquirer of TV "news" as it is. And I think I just insulted the National Enquirer.

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HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #128
138. Thanks
I remember in J-School we all loved the times for it's world coverage...phfff
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #138
147. Even where I live
I would pick up a Sunday Times from the coffeeshop for $5 or so and spend DAYS poring through it.

Haven't done that in a while and won't ever again.
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Pithlet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #124
178. "biggest bathroom wall in the world"
Very well put. Excellent post.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #124
223. Slam Dunk!
New York Times and Fox caught "reading the wall" together in a bathroom stall!

Possibility one: Stupid. They really were in there "reading the wall."

Possibility two: Yech. Check into a motel guys.

Posibility three: The Beast really does have four legs.

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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #124
359. "Biggest bathroom wall in the world." Nailed it. nt
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GOPBasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 07:08 PM
Response to Original message
127. Good job, Skinner.
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Window Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
129. Damned skippy!
Thank you Skinner. Man, I love this place!
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go west young man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
131. It sounds like the mainstream media is definently..
at the denouncing and mocking phase to me. The fear they have been selling to the American public is now something they feel themselves. I am proud to say I have turned off my cable for good after the election. I get Reuters news clips from the internet and thats it. Nice and healthy. No mainstream news. No paying for war and lots of DU. You guys rock!!!
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 07:17 PM
Response to Original message
132. I certainly hope the NYT prints your LTTE
if they do, I trust we will see a link to it here.

Excellent response, thank you Skinner and the other admins and mods. You guys do a fantastic job!!!
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ChavezSpeakstheTruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
133. Thank you Skinner
you have answered my prayers!
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stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
139. Best post ever
The check's in the mail. :thumbsup:

I'm Steve_DeShazer, and I approve this message.
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Aristus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
140. Once again, Skinner,
:yourock: my friend!

The whole filthy thing just makes you want to shake your head. Out of context or not, some anonymous post quoted out of context is worse than offering less relief money than SPAIN, for Pete's sake, and the pResident hibernating on his pig farm for three freaking days????

Sorry, does not compute. :argh:

Imagine if Bill Clinton had been silent for seventy-two hours on the subject, and then sent Roger over there to prance around magnanimously. Oh the outrage from the right then!!!

New York Times be damned. I'm counting on Jesus and the good people of DU to get us through this. Our brothers and sisters in South Asia deserve our best efforts at relief.
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oblivious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
143. Straw men. Straw men. Straw men. Straw men.
I wasn't too interested in the topic, so I just skimmed through the threads, but I got the impression that the main problem in those threads was certain posters throwing up straw men to disrupt what seemed to be a reasonable discussion: "Is it possible for nuclear testing to have an influence on earthquakes?" or something like that.

I don't remember seeing many posts that claimed a specific nuclear blast set up the earthquake that causes this tsunami, or that we had the technology to create a 9.0 earthquake, or that there were no earthquakes before nuclear testing. Most just wondered if underwater nuclear blasts could trigger an earthquake where one was already likely on a fault line, or a bigger one than nature might normally cause.

But certain posters obviously didn't feel comfortable with a discussion that underground nuclear testing might be dangerous and set up straw men to ridicule the thread. It's hard to believe that continuous use of a logical fallacy can be effective, but here you are. Discussion shut down.

As for the NYT, their readership is likely falling while DU's seems to have gone up about 50% in the last year. Can you smell panic? Which website to you go to first every morning -- NYT or DU?
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #143
149. Your last question is easy! DU!
And I ride around with a DU bumper sticker so everyone who sees the back of my car knows the web address. I've talked 17 Dem friends of mine into registering and posting here (and then they curse me because it's addictive).

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uncle ray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #143
210. makew you wonder who the trolls really are, doesn't it?
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Rose Siding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #143
237. The Internets Endorse "underground nuclear testing"
Very sad.

Looking under stones is confusing and tedious. Sometimes it makes you look silly.

That MSM got nervous enough to attack is cool, but they aimed well.
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
145. Is Anybody Archiving Quotes from Freeperland?
I believe it's time we do. Just in case.... ;-)
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RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 07:36 PM
Response to Original message
148. Thanks Skinner!
:yourock:

RL
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
151. I think if we're going to bar certain topics because MSM doesn't like it
You should just fold up shop now.

What happens when they start using other topics to smear you and DU? Do we then shut down those topics as well?

"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." - Bill Cosby

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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
152. Since DU has adopted such a liberal tombstoning policy......
why not just tombstone any members putting forth new posts that propose crazy tsunami theories and lock the offending threads?? I would certainly support this and I think it would put an end to the problem quickly!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #152
166. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #166
170. Very clever, and welcome to DU on your 3rd post.....
ok, what about a compromise? We create a SPECIAL group for tsunami theorists and all threads talking about alternative tsunami theories are immediately moved into there?
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democracyindanger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #170
189. Amazing
coincidence, that "conspirationalist" just happens to have a name that sounds like the topic at hand, joined today, and seems to have posted in no other threads than this one.

Just an amazing coincidence, is all.
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TwilightZone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #189
230. Agreed.
Coincidence. Must be.

:eyes:
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Conspirationalist Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 02:24 AM
Response to Reply #230
301. Serendipity!
Serendipity!
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HeeBGBz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #189
251. He has posted more wisdom in 3 posts
Than many of those with thousands.

Conspirationalist is a breath of fresh air.
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democracyindanger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #251
262. Yeah
the whole "anitfascist" bit was brilliant. Really insightful, well-thought post.
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Conspirationalist Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #262
303. You shouldn't;
you really shouldn't! Ah.... I thank you ALL!

(I still dread to see what your moderator does when he gets back though!)
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Conspirationalist Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #251
302. Ah, thank you, Heebz!
One thing though: This knight of the British countenance IS actually a she.... (I've had a lot of male incarnations though! Previous lives; not sex changes!)
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HeeBGBz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #302
463. I thought about that after I posted
Also from the gist of your posts. I know what you mean about the incarnations. My apologies for the misumption.
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Conspirationalist Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #189
300. NO COINCIDENCE! JUST A SERENDIPITY!
I've got a name that sounds like the topic at hand because I made it up because of this forum! (And what I read about it on other sites. I actually conceived of it, and I am quite proud of it, while I was visiting - and posting - on whizbang - I was trying to annoy them; they don't seem to ban liberal posters, for some reason! Though I know this site bans conservatives; perhaps its first act of censorship. Though yes, yes, with all the Limbaughs around, I can see why...)

I joined today, because I saw the controversy... Where did it first come to my eye? Buzzflash.com, probably. Or Alternet.

And of course I wouldn't yet have posted in any other threads!

What's so coincidental?
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Conspirationalist Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #170
298. IT WAS A TYPO, HONEST!...
That I noticed, laughed over, and turned to my advantage!
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gandalf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 04:19 AM
Response to Reply #152
329. I assume you are joking?
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #329
421. I was being half facetious...
(I did spell that correctly) and half overreacting. Sometimes the oppressed make the worst oppressors.
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Conspirationalist Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
153. "Kooky Tsunami Conspiracy Theories"
You know what I think? I think this site has too many rules. I've just read them all, my eyes started to glaze, and I think they're a little - excessive. I don't see why a Democratic site feels the need to be so prescriptive. Leave it to the Republican sites - only funnily enough, most of them don't make such prescriptions; I suppose they feel it might offend the libertarians among them!

Now, admin johnnies, before you start posting nasty replies to me, or thinking about throwing me off, 1) I am new to this forum - might have viewed it once or twice before, but only signed up today and 2) I am a Brit. So you'd better be nice to me!

I'm a VERY progressive person; only of course I can't vote for any of your lot - nor, to be quite honest, would I want to! But I'm pretty well-informed; about America too; so basically I'm claiming that you want me on your blog! (Otherwise it's back to about.com!)

Yes, all this has relevancy to the current thread! Here it comes:-

I find it VERY interesting that "mainstream" journalism such as the NYT and Fox News is finding it so fascinating; what blog sites have to say about the issues of the day. And they obviously find all the non-mainstream forums threatening; after all, if there are all these blogs around, EVERYBODY's opinion has to be electronically "printed" somewhere; they can't just edit out the opinions they don't like and only publish a few carefully selected letters on their pages from professors, etc.

So good on all blogs! Especially the big ones that bring lots of people together!

But I find it also interesting - and discouraging - that basically all they could find to comment or "criticise" re the blogging phenomenon, was that blogs such as yours supposedly allowed "kooks" a point of expression! Whoever "kooks" may be! (Well, it had to be something they could trivialise, didn't it, in the usual patronising manner of such established "organs" - that being the right word! They would never expose certain blogs such as Freeper as being something really sinister and therefore worthy of worry, would they?)

But actually I'm cross with you guys, too, now, and I'm going to tell you why! (Noblesse oblige! This, by the way, is because I was a knight in one of my previous incarnations. And I feel you have offended against the rules of chivalry. Bear with me.)

For it was a very small posting, was it not, from a woman, who I am pretty sure uses her real name (lindashaw): as I do myself on another forum, incidentally. Entitled "One more dumb question regarding the earthquake in Asia." A VERY tentative, undogmatic, non-pompous little post; as many posts by women and those who feel themselves to have "non-mainstream" theories tend to be.

It is therefore both ironic and amusing that this small posting, plus one or two others, sparked off a furore, among several groups; narrow-minded Republicans, newspapers seeking to recapture their "we are the arbiters" status and their legitimacy, and narrow-minded admininstrators on this site.

The bit about asking people to alert you if anyone came on with any more "kooky tsunami theories" was what got ME! Who are YOU to say what exactly caused the earthquake, or whether or not it didn't have any environmental aggravators - global warming, for instance?

I followed a lot of links to find the "kooky theories" on your site; (and I hope I can find the one with the Reuters reference; pity you restrict your search function!) basically because I have a close friend (female) who has much the same idea.

I think you would be surprised how many people, both in Britain and America,and indeed worldwide, think something very similar, about the bunker-busting bombs in Iraq, for example, busting into fault lines and having something to do with the disaster in Bam. (Why there's even an old Superman movie plot, that's very much like that!)

What do you lot know about it? Where are your scientific credentials? Plate tectonics is a relatively new theory - don't you know that? It doesn't explain everything about the inner earth by any means. And there are always hundreds of other factors in a real-world situation. Saying plate tectonics is the only factor in earthquakes is like saying that weather is purely caused by cloud formations!

Anyway. I wouldn't have expected censorship of ideas to be found on a Democratic site; merely because you were sensitive because some silly Republicans and their pals at Fox would paint you as "kooks"! They think everybody is a kook that doesn't bow before Bush; don't you get that yet??

No, I would have expected to find censorship of certain ideas, and hostility in particular to more "alternative" dissenting points of view, environmental theories, etc, to be found on something like a Marxist site. Those with experience will know what THEIR prejudices are. Well, guys, if I want that, I can always go to www.wsws.org ! (Quite a fine site, by the way. But no blogs!)

You're supposed to be Democrats! You're not supposed to be censoring of anybody! Think liberal! Think wishy-washy! Think environmental. WHATEVER you do - don't pander to Republicans. And don't censor! Leave it to the dogmatists. Last time I looked, no liberal had a dogma. And that goes double for Democrats.

Here's a bit of shoddy journalism:

2. The Times failed to mention that the post was completely anonymous, and there is no way of knowing what the person's intention was. The person who posted it was not a donor, so we don't even have a name from a credit card. We have no way of knowing if the person who posted it was a misguided fellow liberal, or a conservative trolling to make us look bad. For all we know, the right-winger over at whizbang blog could have posted it himself. On the Internet, there's just no way of knowing.

The post was NOT completely anonymous - the person - a woman - used a proper name, what was probably her real name! (More than this blogger is prepared to do - though if you want to know what mine is, you'll find it on my e-mail address!)

They might not have been a donor - so obviously not a favoured contributor! So - do you think that just because a name isn't from a credit card, it isn't a real name? Why not use the usual internet style alias? I feel that the intention of this poster was HONORABLE.

This lady, lindashaw, who it is my desire to defend, is not a "fellow" of any kind, as you can see - she's a woman! (This is even emphasized in the avatar she has chosen for herself; males aren't usually so cute.)

I very much doubt that it was a "conservative troller" posing in the role, nor the "right-winger over at whizbang" - not unless they're VERY persistent and prepared to spend a lot of time fabricating posts; or some kind of master hacker who can hack unnoticed into your system and make it look as if a blogger has been on there longer than they have.

For, "Sherlocks", the poster in question has previously notched up 907 POSTS!!!!

Try checking what you're talking about!

Linda, whoever you are, I raise my hat to you. You're a freethinking liberal; forget the "misguided". It was an insult by an admin of this board; HE SHOULD APOLOGISE!!

(And he would if I ever went over there and to his office.)


Well I still say it's not very surprising, that a couple of patronising mainstream organs and Republican web sites should have made a whole lot of fuss about a few tentative comments about the earth being organic and possibly having "bones" - ie, a structural framework that might be disturbed or broken, wouldn't surprise ME!

And mentions of "Gaia" in other posts ... yes, that would excite the little anti-pagan bigots and snobs and slobs... Well of course it would! This society is a patriarchy! Gaia is a goddess archetype. Male chauvinism in yet another form.

And by the way, "Gaia", referring to the Earth as a system, or organism, is also a SCIENTIFIC theory, pioneered by Dr James Lovelock, which has to this day got a lot of respect and a large following.

So. There.



PS. Why is it possible to post "Smilies" in these threads - and yet I can find nothing to put in bold, underline, or italics?
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murray hill farm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #153
165. You are so new and so correct!!
I am amazed that this has happened here on DU..and i totally agree with what you have said here..i raise my hat to linda, as well..unfortunately...linda has left DU..for all of the reasons that you have mentioned.
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Conspirationalist Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #165
277. Feedback and requests to Mexicoxpat
Mexicoxpat - sorry for the delay - I wanted to get back to you immediately as you were the first person to post positive feedback, indeed feedback per se, to my first major post. Unfortunately, the(not very) old computer was on the fritz, and getting stuck: either that, or there was something wrong with the connection.

Can you give me any help with topics like italics, text formatting?

Sorry to hear Linda has left DU. Not surprised though. I tried to mail her directly twice; thinking her email connection might still be valid. But I didn't get through; not I don't think because the address has been deleted; but because it said I couldn't e-mail directly because I hadn't made enough posts! That's a strange condition/perk to have on a blog!

Mexicoxpat - you have made a lot of posts - could you try to get back to lindashaw - you will find her details on the original, now notorious, article, of course - and mail her with the news that there are now messages of support on this thread? Could you try? Seeing as I can't? Do it quickly, before Skinner (any relation to B.F.??) wakes up like a bear with a sore head and deletes my post.
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murray hill farm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #277
465. mission accomplished!
message sent to lindashaw..thank you for suggesting it..i hope she may be still hanging around so that she will see it. i did relay your thoughts..and i hope she does get to read it...any help that i can be to you, please just ask...and again, welcome here..i am so happy to see someone like you show up here..!!! So...thanks for showing up....and hope you enjoy hanging out at DU..check out all the fun groups and forums when you get a chance.
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GOPFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #277
496. Welcome, Conspirationalist
You presented a nice counterpoint to Skinner's original post. Take heart in the fact that it hasn't been deleted proving there is plenty of room for disagreement here.

I PM'd lindashaw soon after she posted that she was leaving DU. I asked her not to leave DU. She responded. I sent a second PM telling her she had done nothing wrong and that the NYT was way out of line in the way they handled her original post but I've not heard back from her. I doubt I will. I hope she at least read my second PM.

The point is, she did not assert her suggestion as fact. She said it was probably a dumb question. It sparked an interesting discussion. What more could anyone want?

I think the NYT's reporter and his editor owe lindashaw and DU an apology. They blew it.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #153
174. welcome to DU!
well said :toast:

peace
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Conspirationalist Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #174
279. I thank you
Thank you!
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #153
176. Fine, let's make the search capability even easier....
and move ALL the tsunami theory threads into their own little group. Bring a little tin foil hat and have a party!

By the way, why should we be kind to you just because you're a brit? Perhaps you support your leader??
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Conspirationalist Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #176
285. Er, no, anitfascist...
WHY, anyway, do "Tsunami threads" or any other thread have to be ghettoized?!

This blog forum does the job of separating topics really well anyway; it's one of the few I've seen where people really do stay on-topic... (And don't go round the bend reciting poetry or something.)

Having said that; I will now address the topic of "tinfoil hats"!! "Tinfoilia" and so on and so forth - real ticklish additions to the lexicon! Haven't heard them before!

Well, I have heard about tinfoil hats. They're supposed to block out radio signals - and they work.

But I tell you what image the metaphor/insult constantly puts me in mind of when I see it here - and it makes me laugh! You know what image I see in my mind? A character out of Irish writer Eoin Colfer's very popular "Artemis Fowl" novels! (You see, I have this yen for fantasy fiction, particularly "crossover" - Pullman and Potter as well. I love the wit and wisdom - and non-bigotry - of "children's fiction".)

Yes; your denunciations make me think of the faery character Foaly, the centaur, out of Artemis Fowl. He works for the Lower Elements Police and wears a tinfoil hat. He's also their top technical expert. (Colfer reckons that elves have moved on a lot technologically in the past couple of hundred years, so that their technology is just a few steps ahead of ours.)

And he's no fool!

That wayout enough for you??

Any Colfer fans on this forum?? Tell me where you usually hang out, so that I can go there too and stay on-topic!

You should be kind to me as a Brit because I'm new and an outsider; like one's first day at school. Of course this is an alien environment for me; it's full of people passionately defending a party which I feel sympathy for, but cannot vote for!

I might prefer it to Labour in Britain though. Support the glorious leader? Neah, hate him! Bush's poodle.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 05:44 AM
Response to Reply #285
342. Hahaha....
Foaly, eh? I'll have to check into this character more closely (sounds intriguing to me :)

I apologize for my "denunciations", but you did attack my login name.

As for the tsunami theories, I'm sure you are aware from the subject matter of this thread that DU is being targeted by the MSM for its outlandish posting. As one who is interested in investigating some of the more intriguing theories surrounding the current administration, I take this personally and am wary of anyone attempting to portray DU as existing in the realm of fantasy. I suppose this works both ways as there are probably those who feel my work is counter-productive to the integrity of DU and the Democratic Party in general.

So be it! I say to those of us who are so inclined, that we don our metal helmuts as the anti-knights for truth and justice in the world. By the way, we hang out at the 2004 Election Results and Discussion Forum, usually.
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Blue Diadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #153
179. Thanks Conspirationalist!
I agree with your take on this whole thing. I have heard conspiracy theories about everything including 9-11, the blackout, "the Men who killed Kennedy", even Princess Diana's death. I pick and choose which I want to believe and the ones I don't. But, I really am hooked on the DU and I never thought it would come to censorship. What if faux news made fun of us for our main topic of discussion. Would we not be allowed to talk about that either?

I know it's Skinner's forum so he has to do what he has to do. I am also not a paying customer because of unfortnuate financial situations but I feel like I belong here with like-minded people.
We democrats don't always agree on everything, but I thought that was what democrats were about...Letting everyone have their own opinion.
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Conspirationalist Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #179
289. Don't mench...
But thank you. I love conspiracy theories too; I take many with a pinch of salt, but find them to be an excellent and mind-expanding hobby. Literally; the more different and way-out points of view you consider - assuming your brain can cope with them all in the first place - the more neural connections you will make and increase your IQ.

(There should be a study about it!)

It seems very strange to have a site called both "Democratic" and "Underground" and have it resorting to censorship, I most certainly agree. Censorship based on two very trivial and arbitrary "justifications", too: 1) Some people's yen for "conspiracy theories" - and a particular sort too - not the "who stole the election" kind, they're still encouraged, but the "alternative science" kind! Like I said: I thought it was only the fundie Christians and fundie Marxists who were against THAT!

2) the fact that these "tinfoilia" (now that's a word) speculative theories were attacked by some stupid MSM (main-stream media, yes?) organ and a corrupt TV station - mainly just because of one innocent little post someone made!! Bet she never thought she would thereby achieve "infamy"!

(I, on the other hand, am WELL up for it!! I'll even give my real name - I go by it on a couple other sites - but I'll wait awhile before I unmask!)

Democrats ARE about letting everyone have their own opinion; they're not dogmatic, like Marxists; my point precisely!! Democrats ARE freethinkers; like Tom Paine, the man who practically invented American democracy.
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qanda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #153
181. You are my new favorite poster
I hope you will stick around.
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Conspirationalist Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #181
290. I thank you.
I intend to. I shall try.
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kalibex Donating Member (189 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #153
204. Well said. *tips hat in salute* n/t
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Conspirationalist Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #204
291. Gramercy!
I thank you!
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Old Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #153
224. Welcome to DU, Conspirationalist the Brit!
And no, you can't have the country back just yet, there's still a little oil left on one corner.

Thank you for your well put thoughts. I fear that people on the far left of the democratic spectrum are being repressed in reaction to negative press.
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Conspirationalist Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #224
293. Thanks for the welcome!
Love the handle, by the way. Don't want America back - it's yours. For better or for worse. (Anyway, I'm a second generation Slavic immigrant myself!)

Yes, it's funny how a "democratic underground" could be so sensitive to something like that, isn't it? It's not supposed to be anything to do with the Democratic Party central committee or whatever you have - I forget the acronym! Yet whoever is running it feels the need to somehow protect the party from criticism that might be linked to it through this website...

(If the New York Times wrote that certain people posting on About.com were kooks - they'd laugh!!)
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HeeBGBz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #153
231. I think I love you
Brilliant.

I feel bad for lindashaw too. She just struck me as a regular soul who asked a question and was a bit horrified to find the subject discussed in the NYT.

What about the peeps who hear of DU who come here to seek truth and ask a question? Perhaps the question is framed from misinformation gained elsewhere. Instead of someone kindly offering a discussion of possible situations and more accurate information, here come the fact fairies- ripping and shredding. Great solidarity. Lindashaw may never be back. I can only imagine the opinion she has of her experience here.

One other thing I noticed, even though I'm still a newbie. Most of the hateful posters that are bashing every tinfoil possibility in sight are mostly usernames I haven't come to recognize. At least until the herd mentality kicked in.


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Conspirationalist Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #231
294. Well, I love you too, HeeBGBz!
And I liked something you said on a previous post on this thread; I must go back and find it!

I don't think herd mentality should be the foremost quality of a democratic underground site either...
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #153
286. Thank you. Very well said.
And by the way, thank you for not falling for that kooky conspiracy theory about WMDs the way so many here did. A hute debt of gratitude for daring to research and think. And thank you too for that brilliant BBC documentary, The Power of Nightmares, that exposes yet another "kooky conspiracy theory". Your post rocks my world Conspirationalist.
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Conspirationalist Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #286
297. Glad you liked the post... though I can't quite take credit
for the documentary "The Power of Nightmares". I watched it too, though, with fascination.

And no, I don't think anybody in Britain bought the tale about the WMD. Our journalists aren't as bought out by Mammon as yours are, you see! And many of your best people - Moore, Palast - have to come and publish over here!
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Acryliccalico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #153
307. Thank you for this post
I agree with you!
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T Town Jake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 04:22 AM
Response to Reply #153
330. You said:
"You know what I think? I think this site has too many rules"

Well, ya know what? I've got the perfect solution to that problem for you: log out. It seems to work for me whenever I decide I don't care for the "rules" of any given online forum I happen to be participating in - and every time, at that. Can it get any easier? :shrug:
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sherilocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 05:05 AM
Response to Reply #153
338. Huh? Do you mean me?
"For, "Sherlocks", the poster in question has previously notched up 907 POSTS!!!!

Try checking what you're talking about!"

_____________________________

I wasn't around last night when all of this went down. Is there a Sherlocks out there?
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gollygee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #153
391. I agree 100%
it's silly to not allow people to talk about conspiracy theories. There will always be conspiracy theories. Who cares? The freepers have theirs, DU has ours. Nothing to see here, move along.
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mirrera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #153
404. Thank You!
I like your post. I was thinking the same thing. Who is going to judge what is kooky. I think judging people b y their post counts is kooky...
Maria
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Slit Skirt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #153
462. welcome and thanks for posting...
..hope there is more to come
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lildreamer316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #153
482. Good goddess!....
..and welcome! I'm new too, but honored to be sharing this space with you. Hope to engage in some eye-opening intelligent conversations with ya soon.. ;)
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #153
500. Excellent post!
Check your PM Box
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matt819 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
154. Excellent Work
Excellent post. In retrospect, I wish I had spent as much time analyzing the article and included that in my original post about the NYT article. Your review is remarkably comprehensive, and I hope the NYT sees fit to print the letter.

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frankly_fedup2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 07:48 PM
Response to Original message
155. Well, I did post the following link on Jan 2 stating that the U.S. .. .
Edited on Wed Jan-05-05 07:53 PM by frankly_fedup2
geologists were aware it was going to happen; however, no one warned the people because they "didn't have anyone's number." (some stupid remark like that.

Now it's coming out that our military that was stationed in Asia were warned. Why couldn't they warn these people to move inland a mile or two for a week or so. Yeah, everything would have been torn to pieces; however, no death toll of over 100,000+ people dying.

Don't forget . . . we are a subversive website. Who wrote that comment about a month or two ago?????

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph... >

Unfortunately, this link has some of the strange conspiracy theory stuff but they name the sites they got it from.
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
159. Regarding Fauxsnooze tactics.....
>>Here's the really underhanded thing about Fox: They're maliciously and deliberately giving their viewers the false impression that this is the official opinion of Democratic Underground. Of course, they aren't coming out and saying it directly, because that would be lying. But they have prepared their report in a manner to give that impression.<<


I would expect nothing less from Faux. I mean, why would they change now?? It's been working for them for years.
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Andromeda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 07:59 PM
Response to Original message
161. Thank you, Skinner.
I couldn't say it any better!
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 08:05 PM
Response to Original message
164. Thank you very much, Skinner ...

The first couple days after the catastrophe, I saw a few of these theories and dismissed them, thinking they'd easily fade away as so much nonsense. Then, I noticed another thread, then another, several of which were started by people who have been around a very short period of time. I thought, okay, we have trolls and a very few misguided people being affected by the trolls.

And then I saw a name I recognize as a long-time member take to task someone else for daring to call these theories, as you say, "crap." The person's liberalism, their sense of decency, their very intelligence were questioned simply for calling these theories what they were -- utter and complete nonsense not based in any verifiable scientific data. In most cases I've seen, in fact, the "theory" has been based on nothing more than a random "what if" thought.

This all disturbed me.

I am very happy that the DU administration decided to offer their direct opinion on this matter and even further encouraged by the fact I think it is the correct one.

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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 08:17 PM
Response to Original message
171. Thank you! They are an embarassment to the DU and all Democrats.
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flyingfysh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
172. Good move!
I posted replies to posts suggesting a nuclear bomb or electromagnetic radiation did it, and tried to point out that the ideas were not even remotely plausible. The posters were either stupid or were trolls.

I should have suggested this move to the admins myself, but I wasn't thinking quickly enough.
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truthseeker1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #172
215. Maybe you were too "stupid" to think of it
Geez, get over yourself already!

"The posters were either stupid or were trolls" - That's IT, genius! Brilliant, narrow-minded - dare I say freeper-like - conclusion. Ask what might be considered to some a dumb question and risk coming off as a troll.

Wow, DU has really changed. This was the one place that used to be a refuge where the sheeple didn't police themselves. Those days are apparently over.
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qanda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 08:20 PM
Response to Original message
173. Sounds to me like...
They won!

Just because someone shudders or is embarrassed by a subject raised here, doesn't mean it should be censored. Doesn't anyone believe that there is research going on to find out if excessive bombing has an impact on when earthquakes occur? Why aren't the scientists who study these types of things considered kooks? You'll never know the answer if you don't ask the question. And yes the poster was probably misguided and ill-informed but maybe they posted their question because they geniunely wanted to find out the answer and not because they were trying to embarrass Skinner and DU.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #173
478. Yep - and without a fight. The curse of respectability rears it's head.
This thread embarrasses me more than any "kooky" conspiracy theories.
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Maestro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
180. Couldn't agree more
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
185. Can we extend this to "Kooky 9/11 Conspiracy Theories" too?
Pretty please?
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WoodrowFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #185
209. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE
PLEASE yes, there is a set group of 9-11 kooks who post the same crap over and over agin, linking to the same sites that also post various RW conspiracy "theories" as well as the standard "alien-lizard-Skull and Bones" stuff. Such posts add nothing but waste matter to the discussion and make us look bad.

I don't give the south end of a north-bound rat if Faux or the NYT likes us or not, but let's NOT, please, look like kooks to the reasonable folks on the left and center who might otherwise be happy to join us.

To use an analogy, would it be unreasonable for a board for geologists to ban someone who kept posting over and over that the earth was flat and sat on the back of a big turtle named "Fred"? I say it would be reasonable to ban them as disruptors.
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #209
417. You're welcome to ignore stuff you don't like
unless you find it outright offensive.

This is a big place-- you ought to give some leeway to people with some far-out ideas.
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ashmanonar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #417
428. indeed
seems like the only people i ignore are the ones who put up their straw men when these "kooky" posters ask their questions...
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WoodrowFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #428
450. I do use ignore
whenever I see the mentally challenged, oops, I mean "conspiracy theorists" post. That doesn't solve the problem of them making us ALL look like idiots.
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #185
416. Give me a break-- what is "kooky" anyway?
If you don't want to hear about 9/11, why do you spend so much time on 9/11-related threads?

If you want to give your opinion fine, but there is no reason to shut us off.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
186. damn
I was thinking about alerting on those kooky stories because I do suspect trolls but.......well, I wish I had.

I also don't appreciate major news outlets painting DU with a broad brush based on kooky posts.
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buddhamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
188. Thank You, Skinner
EarlG and Elad too.
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LevelB Donating Member (181 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
191. Did I miss something here?
I read the original post when it came out - saw that some rational responses followed and decided that I could not add to the discussion.

But I notice that this thread title (subject?) and the subsequent post talk about the original post as a "kooky conspiracy theory". I read and re-read the original post and all I saw was a question posed by someone who is woefully ignorant of the science of geology. Definitely a kooky (uninformed) view of how the earth works, but nothing about a conspiracy theory. I also could not find any references to a "kooky conspiracy theory" in the NYT article. Maybe those references come from Faux and Talk Radio, but I could not bear to go those sites and find out. They are just too painful. Kudos to those who can stomach that.

I guess what is confusing me about this is, how can someone rack up 900+ posts and still be considered anonymous? This is where I am uninformed - I am still pretty new to this Forum stuff (although I do occasionally post on some non-opinion geek type sites).

B.



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rpannier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 09:15 PM
Response to Original message
194. Fox and the NYT lie????
They are nothing but hacks. Lazy pseudo-journalistic hacks. It's why I never read the times.
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Slit Skirt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 09:28 PM
Response to Original message
196. I do not believe that we should allow msm nor
the right wing to determine the "script" for which we are permitted to speak from. that has been a democratic problem for awhile...the repubs figure out a way to determine the agenda...our agenda...ie..a lot of the election was talk on Kerry and his war record...rather than the record of the president himself

I also think that voter fraud issue has become a huge thorn in their side...a threat....all that worked so hard to expose it did a great job.....now they have a vote tomorrow to deal with...

they would do anything to discredit this forum. I think we are becoming a force to contend with....and I do not think we should change anything!
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TheKingfish Donating Member (263 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 09:29 PM
Response to Original message
197. Im beside myself that some want to change the Format?
Thats all DU is a messageboard with a format. Really shaking my head on that one.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 09:42 PM
Response to Original message
202. Cool, should we react the same with other wild conspiracy theories?
Not talking anything that enters the realm of the remotely possible, just stuff like this tsunami crap. The WAY OUT THERE conspiracy theories.
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Lone_Wolf_Moderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
203. The enemy of propaganda is context.
How in God's name can Fox call themselves journalists? This is straight up Goebbels-style propaganda, being used to try and smear a left-wing website. It's vulgar. As far as the kooky theories themselves, I agree that the post was 100 percent ridiculous, but as you've said Skinner, he was just asking a question, albeit a foolish one. A very foolish one.

P.S. I bet everything I own that Fox will never do a story on Free Republic, and their bigoted statements against Muslims.
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HeeBGBz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #203
257. It was a she. Linda. Yes, she was just asking a question.
Who is the patron saint of stupid questions? I think we need protection.
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Lone_Wolf_Moderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 04:08 AM
Response to Reply #257
325. Oops. My bad.
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Khephra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
205. Great writing, Skinner!
Two thumbs up!

:hi:
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sistersofmercy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
206. Skinner, I know people who believe in tectonic weaponry
but I do not consider them kooks by any measure. Although tectonic weaponry may be highly improbable, it is not impossible. NYT and Fox taking one or a hand full of posts out of context and labeling this site and members kooks does not bother me at all. It is expected. Of course, they are not going to report what the knuckleheads at FR have to say, it is not news to them, ergo, no liberal bashing. The message they want to send and have been trying to send, liberal= kook, unamerican, or some other scornful and laughable term. Let the numb laugh!
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Conspirationalist Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 04:31 AM
Response to Reply #206
332. Well if someone in government was prepared to talk...
about it openly, why shouldn't there be such things?

This site/thread should surely be about possibilities, rather than about what we think definitely happened?

Most of the time that's a very dubious thing to determine, anyway...

I don't know why everyone on this thread is making such a big fuss. It just seems to be on this thread (so far), where the threats of "censorship because you're making us all look like tinfoil hatters" are coming out in their droves!

I far preferred the content of another thread on DU which some other site linked me to; I would have liked to have contributed, but it was closed and archived as of the 29th. Here is the address:-

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

"A majority of quakes could be manmade", started by Carl Brennan. This thread was full of punch and counterpunch; theories and counter-theories... Still a bit "snitty" in parts - but not so much "tinfoil hat" teasing or: "Waah! I'm going to tell Principal Skinner on you!"

(Isn't that, by the way, what the principal in The Simpsons is actually called??)

Yeah. We want more threads like that; not less. I don't mind if all the scientists in the Democratic Party and worldwide come and try and shoot alternative theories down.

Anyway, I've got something rather better for you lot than even tectonic weaponry; or tinfoil hats. It concerns predicting more earthquakes; and it was a site I researched over the New Year period. But it'll have to wait till later.

I'm fascinated by all this earthquake and ecological stuff.
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PittPoliSci Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
208. Thank you, Skinner.
Edited on Wed Jan-05-05 09:51 PM by PittPoliSci
That was a very well thought out response to the attempted defamation of our group. We should be so lucky to have you and the other admins at the helm! :toast: :toast: :toast:
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earthtime Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #208
219. Did DU ban this person...
for only asking a question???!!!
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norml Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
216. And here I thought that the tsunami was caused by vibrations coming from
Bill O`Reilly's dildo.
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norml Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #216
358. It was the vibrations from Bill O`Reilly's dildo that did it I tell you!
He fell asleep with it still in, and turned on.
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Acryliccalico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 10:01 PM
Response to Original message
217. Thank you Skinner
If we are given LIES all the time by our government and our media then we shouldn't be condemned for trying to come up with our own answers. Since the truth, now days, is so elusive then who can say. I believe that until we start getting truth then it is only reasonable to say that we will go on searching for that truth In that search we may throw out some thoughts that seem over the top but that is part of the process of figuring out the TRUTH. I don't think the person who posted was trying to harm ( I could be wrong ) I think they were just trying to find truth.

Thats my 2 cents on it and I don't care about what fox or any one else says. I think that being able to throw out differing ideas is a healthy thing. :kick:
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
220. Dragged from the underground to the spotlight?
DU continues to evolve. When will it reach the official "above ground" classification, and will its name change to reflect the new position?

I read some of that original thread. Living for most of my life in earthquake country, I'm pretty comfortable and familiar with plate tectonics; I knew that earthquakes happen. I also knew that it might be possible that people who don't live with the inevitability of a major quake at any time might not be as familiar with plate tectonics, or the ring of fire, as those who live right on the ring. I didn't respond, but I also didn't see the need to join in. After a few posts pointing out the realities, I figured it was redundant. Maybe, but I sure noticed the other threads spreading like a flaming plague through the board since then.

I think it's fine to ask questions. All questions. I don't think there is such a thing as a "dumb" question, if it is asked honestly, and answered in the spirit in which it was asked.

I don't think it is OK to suppress opinions or discussion, either. At least, not when they are entered into honestly, with the intention of sharing ideas and opinions, listening to others, giving the opinions of others careful consideration, and responding with respect.

That doesn't seem to have happened here. Quite frankly, the 32 ten-year-olds in my classroom do a better job engaging in informal debate with their classmates than many of the people on both sides of this particular discussion did.

Quite frankly, I'm more concerned at this moment with effective relief efforts than I am with convincing anyone that my ideas about events leading up to the quake are "right." And, having already done my job moderating raging mathematical debate among my charges today, I'm happy to leave your website up to you. ;-)

I haven't spent much time worrying about what the whole world will think of all of DU if someone is posting ideas I think are faulty. Pun intended.

Also, quite frankly, I don't choose to allow the NYT or FOX news to browbeat or ridicule me into supporting any suppression of discussion. If the eye of the MSM is upon us, it might be a good time to clean up our act. Not by suppression of opinions, but by engaging in civil, respectful discussion and disagreement. By leaving the ego behind with the flames, and presenting our pov with dignity and respect.

I look forward to finding your letter to the NYT.
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disillusioned1 Donating Member (280 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
221. Should have posted.....
"Hey Fox - Get a REAL issue!" and be done with it.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 10:15 PM
Response to Original message
222. While I appreciate
Edited on Wed Jan-05-05 10:15 PM by bloom
people wanting to maintain a certain level of dignity and decorum - I am on the side which considers today to be a sad day when we let FOX (or FAUX or FUX) define what we can and cannot say.

:(

I think much more is gained by the free flow of of sincere ideas.
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T Town Jake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 07:05 AM
Response to Reply #222
349. "I think much more is gained by the free flow of of sincere ideas"
...and therein resided the problem with these idiotic threads regarding the Tsunami. In nearly EVERY thread I perused of that bent, it wasn't a "free flow of of (Sic) sincere ideas". It was :tinfoilhat: types posting crap, and then baiting everyone who knocked down their ridiculous gibberish in the hard, cold light of FACTS with "freeper" insinuations; Prove it didn't happen just how I theorize! garbage (i.e.; "Prove/Disprove this asserted NEGATIVE!" idiocy); and the typical where's your links!?! crowd (nearly none of whom post legitimate links to begin with).
Everyone here knows just the types I'm referring to, so please spare us any Claude Raines-type exclamations of shocked! I'm shocked, I tell you! horseshit inquiries about the particulars of the silly posting habits of the participants in question. Suffice it to say that the vast majority of us have had quite enough of it, thank-you, as the Admins of this site clearly acknowledge in the OP.
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WoodrowFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #349
360. hear hear!!
:yourock:
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #349
449. those were not the threads that I saw
nor was the thread linked by the Admins like that (where the majority of posters were insisting "prove it").

And it wouldn't have even been an issue without FOX.

People could ignore stupid threads, BTW.
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susanna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
225. Well done, Skinner.
Your points are very well stated. :-)
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poe Donating Member (554 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
228. conspiracy,propaganda and bloomingdales
the tag "conspiracy theorist" is a well known and oft used label to marginalize those who question the "official" story. conspiracy law as few people know is the most often used method of investigating crimes. prosecuting attorneys study the techniques of conspiracy more than any other mode of inquiry. one should also keep in mind that there is no diabolical scheme you could cook up that is more harrowing and disturbing than what your government is actually doing every day in all corners of the world. any who doubt this read KILLING HOPE by william blum, or research the national security archives. do you think the cia, dia, nsa and all other spook orgs. are scouring the planet looking for the best fishing holes?
while i don't believe for a moment that this tsunami was anything other than a natural disaster a different question might be -if the masters of war could pull off such a calamity would they? for the answer look to nagasaki and iraq (at present the equivalent of 250,000 times the radiation of nagasaki attack has been dropped on iraq during operation 'enduring mass slaughter').
as for "the paper of record" it is amazing to see the occasional attempt at journalism squeezed between the full page macy's ads and the adjoining full length fur features courtesy of bloomingdales. remember the most used method to draw attention away from your own troubles is to point out someone elses and if there are none to be found create some. credibility at ny times is at an all time low and they know it, due not only to blair and miller and their "officials say" party line pandering. mostly it comes from the fact that more folks are tired of being lied to by npr,ny times, washington post, fox, etc.
the greatest propaganda tool is silence. if it isn't reported must not have happened. well that wall of silence is tumbling down and those who wish to prevent the crumbling are really going after "unofficial sources."
now if you want to go after conspiracy theorists look into c. powells famous "look! look! over there! fabrication which was used to justify mass murder. or do a small thing ny times and look at d.cheneys allegations about wmd, osama and sadams love affair etc. these are the true wing-nut conspiracists. their track record is fraught with lies, fraud, corruption etc. can you not see the excrement dripping from their tongues? not if you're a lousy careerist journalist who practices self censorship, or a lackey for the "paper of record".
a final point considering this affair with the times and the overall defensive posture that the left knows so well. don't concern yourself so much with the perception of the corporate sycophants at the mighty wurlitzer and please even if it is not in your nature lefties become more offensive. the world is waiting.
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earthtime Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #228
232. i'll ask again - Did DU ban this person???!!!
The story may be censored, but what about the person who posted, who ONLY asked a question???!!!
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TwilightZone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #232
234. Obviously not.
Since the thread is still there (and linked in the story above), the poster was obviously not banned.

The story wasn't censored, either. Perhaps you should take some time to actually look at the thread in question.
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earthtime Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #234
260. Not so obvious...
... been there,done that. My question actually was the result of reading a post at democrats.com where the (alleged) poster
of the question claims that they were banned.
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TwilightZone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #260
385. Try again. The poster wasn't banned and the thread is still there.
Edited on Thu Jan-06-05 11:22 AM by TwilightZone
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

That's the thread, linked in the original message above.

I suggest that you actually READ IT this time and then decide if you think the poster was banned.

Regarding the claim on democrats.com, don't believe everything you read. Obviously, the poster wasn't banned.
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HeeBGBz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #234
265. The thread is gone and so is the poster.
Her posts were gone first and then the whole thread was deleted.

I have not seen her posts since. Don't know if she was banned.
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earthtime Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #265
275. Thanks for noticing...
...seems to have been ignored by others. i believe that she or he has been banned and that should be of some concern, not the question they presented and not the response from MSM. Of course i suppose they can start over with a new username.
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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #265
354. The thread is not gone, HeeBGBz
If you're looking for it, I link directly to the thread in my post.

Also, the member has not been banned.
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HeeBGBz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #354
460. Thanks Skinner.
I searched but couldn't find it. I'm glad she's not banned.
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TwilightZone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #265
371. Wrong.
Edited on Thu Jan-06-05 09:47 AM by TwilightZone
Try actually reading the original post in this thread next time. The post is linked directly in the thread.
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Child_Of_Isis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #232
456. She left DU in total humiliation. n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #232
506. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
229. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
classof56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
233. Way to go, Skinner. You're awesome!
Especially like the freeper posts. Talk about kooky!

Keep up the good work.

Tired Old Cynic
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buddysmellgood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
236. That is excellent. They will never print it.
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Domitan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 11:01 PM
Response to Original message
240. Yahoo article
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/2005...

It doesn't mention DU, but there's a section where scientists loudly rebuke the notion that ecoweapons could have caused this tsunami.

Scientists give such theories short shrift.

"This was a natural disaster," said Dr Bart Bautisda, chief science research specialist at Philippine Institute of Volcanology and Seismology, debunking the idea that an "eco-weapon" could be used to cause an earthquake or such large-scale tsunamis.

"You would need a very huge amount of energy. It's impossible. A billion tonnes could not do it," Bautisda said.

He said wave activity might be able to be triggered very close to the scene of a giant explosion, but the effect would be a tiny fraction of the tsunamis which travelled thousands of kilometres (miles) at the speed of a jet after tectonic plates shifted off Sumatra.

"It's possible to cause vibration, but not sufficient to cause disruption," he said.
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bush_is_wacko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
241. Why doesn't the MSM and FAUX news report
About the kooky conspiracy theory that God has sent his wrath down to devastate SEVEN third world countries? From what I read of the Bible "the meek shall inherit the earth." I would certainly have considered these at least partly "meek countries" in the grand scheme of things right now. In fact, the disaster is BIBLICAL in proportions why aren't they releasing biblical kooky stories like this in their papers? They could be the new prophets of our times. What are they hiding?
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NightTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
242. To the New York Times and Fox News, I say this....
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ashmanonar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
243. what i'd like to know is
how is a "kooky tsunami conspiracy theory" any different from the freepers saying that god is responsible? that isn't "scientifically provable" either, yet faux doesn't say a lick about it!

f***ers...
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ashmanonar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #243
268. oops
didn't see that post 2 above the previous one, sorry...

(it won't let me edit!)
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TeddyKGB Donating Member (728 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
248. I petitioned Skinner more than once to create a separate "tin foil" forum
...and was roundly dismissed for it each time.

At least if that post was posted or moved there, it would provide some context -- instead of giving the NYT or Fox the opportunity to exploit it.

Perception is reality in politics. That's Lesson #1, for cryin' out loud.

Can't say I didn't warn you.
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Terror Sell Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #248
380. Again, the issue is who decides
What qualifies for the tin foil forum? Anything outside of the "official" media reporting? Would any and all speculation earn you a one-way ticket to the kook bin? Sounds like a gulag to me.
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TeddyKGB Donating Member (728 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #380
418. It's like the old definition of "pornography"...
...I don't know what it is, but I know what it is when I see it."

At least provide a forum for these closet cases to play in. A DU Group, at the minimum.
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Cookie wookie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
249. Randi Rhodes got a caller who espoused a hypothesis"
along the lines of the tin foil hat theorists on this (I won't mention specifically what "this"), and I was surprised to hear that Randi didn't shoot her down. I've never heard Randi pull a punch. Her reply was to say something to the effect that outrageous things can be possible but she only deals in facts and went on to question why people weren't warned of the possibility of an impending tidal wave.

Thinking out of the box is called brainstorming, creative thinking. But woe to creative, far out thinking today. Those who imagine such things as possibility must be confined to the netherworld of the net, to join other idiots with dark or outrageous imaginations like those idiots H.G. Wells, Aldous Huxley, and Jules Verne as in:

"Some of Verne's fiction has also become a fact: his submarine Nautilus predated the first successful power submarine by a quarter century, and his spaceship predicted the development a century later. The first all-electric submarine, built in 1886 by two Englishmen, was named Nautilus in honor of Verne's vessel. The first nuclear-powered submarine, launched in 1955, was named Nautilus, too."

http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/verne.htm

Tin foil hatters all. Report them to the Orwellian police. Oh, forget that. Report Huxley.

After this little tirade, I hope I'll still be allowed to read posts here at DU. If still allowed to post, I'll be very very careful to stay within proscribed boundaries, if I can imagine what they will be in advance.
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Fusions_Minion Donating Member (103 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #249
272. Thank you- well said.
Administration will be investigating the Kooks at the bequest of the worst of the MSM? I'm sorry to say but this looks like the beginning of the end for this place if people who hold genuine liberal ideals cannot have open discussion, regardless of how "kooky". Who will define the parameters of "kooky"? The labeling of funding constituents and fellow liberals as "kooky" over and over again in this statement is simply crude and honestly sounds like groveling. A shame.
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Droopy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
253. I've looked at the original post
And I really don't see anything all that controversial. I've seen things weirder than that posted here and I spend most of my time in the lounge. linda was not saying that the earthquake was intentionally caused by anybody. Only that we could have accidentally caused it because of the amount of bombs we've dropped in the region. I don't think that's the case, but I don't blame her for asking about it. I think that her post does not warrant all this attention we're getting here.
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poe Donating Member (554 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
255. coincidence theory
let the imagination run wild for the briefest of moments. a particularly fine summer day several well heeled chaps arrived at the same hotel in paris and began a series of discussions. the theme of the discussions was greed. they decided that together they could get way more of everything than could be done individually. so they agreed to a little price fixing here a little takeover there (country or company doesn't matter). now things went so well they decided to meet again in a room and discuss how they could get even more and remove all obstacles. oh it was messy but not to worry drinks all around. yes, they did meet in a room, noot on the merry go round, and these like minded chaps did discuss details in how to carry out their dreams. conspiracy. organized greed. mafia dons do it. what do you think america is? mafia style corporate system. read brig. gen. smedley butler's WAR IS A RACKET.
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Mayhem Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #255
259. Idea
Edited on Thu Jan-06-05 12:00 AM by Mayhem
Well this seems out of context, at this point in the thread.

What if when the Admin has to censor a post, we still get an option to see what the post was?

So when a post gets censored, the users see that a post has been removed, but a couple of confirmation clicks later, they can still reference the post, encapsulated and separate from the context of the rest of the thread.


p.s. hi i'm new :hi:

p.p.s. and I just noticed how I could of posted this is a better spot, sorry.
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Droopy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #259
264. Welcome to DU, Mayhem
When a discussion thread is getting out of hand the moderaters of the forum will lock the thread so nobody else can post on it. You can still read the thread, though. If somebody starts a thread that is really offensive then it is possible that the thread will be deleted, although this does not happen as often as locked threads do. If somebody posts something out of line within a thread, then their post is deleted and the thread is allowed to stand, but you cannot read their post.
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Droopy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #255
263. Welcome to DU, poe
I saw your post above and this post. I think you bring up some valid points. But did you read the original post that started this whole mess? There's nothing conspiratorial about it. The poster was simply asking if the amount of bombs we had dropped in the region had somehow caused an earthquake. The main problem here I guess is that a couple of news outlets took the post and made it into something it wasn't. So I can understand Skinner's concern and need to set the record straight. But I've seen far more controversial stuff on here than the post that started all this. I guess we have to ask ourselves why two large news organizations would like to pick on little old us.
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njdemocrat106 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 11:58 PM
Response to Original message
258. Well done
FWIW, I think the tsunami thread being questioned really was an innocent question posted by one us liberals. I'm also surprised someone from the NY Times actually did some "exploring" here at DU and entered the Science forum. (I call LBN, GD, GD :Politics, and the Lounge the "Big 4".)
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kodi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 12:03 AM
Response to Original message
261. you should be so proud!
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SemperEadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 12:22 AM
Response to Original message
267. Well said, Skinner
I dare them to investigate your links and examine this issue they're inflaming... they'll probably punk out like the wussies they are.


Maybe the DLC will sit up and take some damn notice that we need them to grow a spine and fight for this party's principles. Or go home.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 12:32 AM
Response to Original message
269. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Child_Of_Isis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #269
274. The "ignorant" part bothered me also.
There was another thread which lindashaw stated that she was only saying that she thought the earth was a living thing and maybe all the bombs have finally done some damage. Well color me ignorant also, because it makes perfect sense to me.
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truthseeker1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #269
299. Well said
:thumbsup:
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 12:47 AM
Response to Original message
270. Today I am "embarrassed" and ashamed.
Edited on Thu Jan-06-05 01:07 AM by Tinoire
What is wrong with these people? I'm talking about Americans who did NOT see the capture of Saddam Hussein as being a good thing. Perhaps their anti-Bush bias is so blinding that it has gotten in the way of common sense? Regardless, we have consistently seen throughout the past year that good news for America is bad news for the anti-American left. That would include those Democrats, Hollywood celebrities, and "peace" activists who opposed this just and moral war. (snip)

(snip)

Another strategy shift from the left, albeit one that smacks of desperation, centers on the advancement of conspiracy theories. With the wonderful news of further economic recovery in America, Democrats have found themselves in quite a predicament. What issues can they use to attack President Bush on? Several Democrats have begun to push far-left conspiracy theories. Howard Dean appeared to be supportive of disgraced ex-Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney's theory that President Bush had prior knowledge of the attacks on 9/11. No surprise there since Dean also thinks we should suspend judgment on bin Laden's guilt until he receives a fair trial. (snip) Michael Moore's conspiracy film, Fahrenheit911, due out in theatres just before the election?

Now, one could certainly discount such theories as pure speculation by desperate political opponents who have no other issues with which to criticize President Bush. However, this type of irresponsible and dangerous behavior from mainstream politicians illustrates the radicalization and desperation of the Democrats. It also feeds the far-left fringe groups who have such a hatred for President Bush that they cannot be discounted as harmless conspiracy nuts. Let's not discount the impact such behavior has with regards to fueling the anti-American fires around the world.

As proof of this, one only needs to turn to the Internet for confirmation. Just this week, I was a guest on an Internet radio show hosted by Doug Basham of Las Vegas. Mr. Basham's radio program feeds the left-wing fringe element and furthers their distrust of all elements of our government. The radio program, described as a left-wing alternative to the conservative mainstream media (yikes!), began with a news segment centering on the Rumsfeld/Saddam connection of the 80's. One can simply visit the show's website or even the more popular DemocraticUnderground.com to view the level of hatred, contempt, and distrust for President Bush. These people are the inconvincible; for them any facts or information discrediting their theories would be discounted as being a part of the conspiracy itself. Speaking with Doug Basham and reading the comments of his audience provided further confirmation of this.

(snip)

bif: "Who cares what you think! You worthless piece of s---!"

scishyp: "If evilness is measured by amount of actual and potential harm caused to the innocent, nobody in this world can even stand next to Bush."

Triana: "I think Bu$h Should Face......ultimate Justice...he's as bad as Sadaam, IMO"


(snip)

One final point worth mentioning; this left-wing radio program treated the latest terror alert with a certain amount of contempt and suspicion. Could you imagine the outcry from these people were the government to NOT warn us of increased chatter? These are, of course, the same folks who believe that the government could have actually done something to prevent 9/11. (Link below to DemocraticUnderground forum discussion where members HOPE the President had prior knowledge of 9/11). (snip)

DU Forum Thread Links

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

What is wrong with these people?
by: Jon Alvarez
December 29, 2003
http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/alvarez/031229
============================

LMAO!! Oh yeah. I really give a rat's ass what people like this (who amazingly have a lot in common with those here who decry "conspiracy theories)think. This is SHAMEFULshameful for DU.

What other "kooky conspiracy theories" shall we put to bed? Certain at DU tried to put the PNAC issue to bed- we refused over the objections of "embarrassed" posters. Some were "embarrassed" that some DUers would dare suggest Bush had foreknowledge of the attacks. We refused to shut up giving people like Michael Moore the information and support he needed to make Fahrenheit 9-11. People were "embarrassed" that DUers were so "anit-Semitic" that they called what Ariel Sharon is doing in Israel terrorism. The world now condemns us for supporting that terror. "Embarrassed" people came to accuse us of being "anti-military" because we said the US was committing unspeakable atrocities on the Iraqis. Nevermind that the the most outspoken "conspiracy theorists" about these atrocities were veterans who know full well what the military is capable of and why. "Embarrassed" people told us we should support this war because Saddaam had WMDs & everyone knew it and we should shut up. Now it is suddenly very fashionable to say "off with Bush's head; there were no WMDs".

Today I am embarrassed. Embarrassed that a site that used to encourage free thought and free discussion could care one bit what Fox News or the Neo-liberal NYT thinks. Since when does the opinion of the two organs that TOGETHER- both of them as equally- PUSHED FOR THIS WAR by deliberately, knowingly spreading lies about WMDs and supported Bush's dirty business of "spontaneous coups" in places like Venezuela by both eagerly congratulating Venezueleans for having gained democracy before Bush was able to forcibly put Chavez on a plane as he later did to Aristide. Both eagerly congratulating the Venezuelans even though the coup had already been foiled because they were repeating talking points they had been given.

Today I am embarrassed and hang my head in shame. Is this what now passes for democracy? This third way democracy where we must not embarrass ourselves in front of sensitive right-wing scum?

It's not until irrefutable pictures come out, or a film is made that people grudgingly stop labelling them conspiracy theories and pretend to have known it all along. :puke:

The entire world is sitting in indictment of America right now and the best 'we' can come up with is to try to get people to forcibly join ranks, and if they can't, at least pretend they do, and if they can't pretend, "shut-up" and if they can't shut-up, purge them.

Next to such, I am proud to be smeared as a "conspiracy theorist" by those who dare not think until it's thrust in their faces on celluloid.

Today, for the first time since I've been posting here, I am embarrassed. I am flat out ashamed.

On edit: Whom shall Fox News and the MSM tell us to be ashamed of next? Blacks? Gays? The Homeless? Homeless war veterans?

The Germans too were once told what they could and could not think. Years later they pleaded that they were afraid to say anything. Or didn't know. How could they have? No one was allowed to talk about those "kooky conspiracy theories". Smoke billowing from those chimneys was once the stuff of "conspiracy theories" too. And yet we dare judge as we recreate the same conditions.

Is this the path DU really wants to take? The "embarrassment" of some is not worth the risks of one day wringing our hands because we destroyed an open intellectual climate by discouraging those who dared to ask embarrasing questions.
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nascarblue Donating Member (693 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #270
276.  My thoughts exactly Tinoire!
T, you are the best!!! I couldnt agree with you more. This is just another red herring that shifts the left to the right. That DU would follow that smelly fish is not what I would have done. After all, with everything this administration has done over the last 4 years, can you blame many of us for being suspicious of just about anything at this point? Though I did like that they pointed out the freepers. I find things I've read over there are consistenly way more out to lunch than over here.
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upperleftedge Donating Member (93 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #270
278. Thanks
To all of you @ DU and NYT too. I love the fact that the conversation continues. We need to talk. We don't need to be embarrassed or pissed at each other. It's only people being people. That is the lesson of the INTERNET. The Spider Woman of Hopi legend is finishing her web. The Armageddon of Christian legend is at hand. Or so we are told. Change is afoot. This place and others like it seem to be on the edge of that change. You are doing a wonderful job and don't let anybody tell you you aren't.

We are the people we have been waiting for.

billy
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #270
282. Thank you, Tinoire. n/t
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nascarblue Donating Member (693 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 01:58 AM
Response to Reply #270
288. "irrefutable pictures"
"It's not until irrefutable pictures come out, or a film is made that people grudgingly stop labelling them conspiracy theories and pretend to have known it all along."

Even "irrefutable pictures" aren't enough as I've come to find out by the latest Fallujah photos from dahrjamahl.com that were posted a week ago.

And I ask you, how many subjects that were originally considered "consipracy theories" ended up being fact? I'd wager more than not.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #270
292. Yes! Exactly what do Fox and the Times know about conspiracy theories?
If it were up to them we would all still believe that Iraq was tied to Bin-Laden and had WMD's. If anyone should be laughed at and held in derision it is them, and the conspiracy theories they pimped for George Bush.

There is no expectation of some random post on DU about the earthquakes being credible. There WAS an expectation of the Times having journalistic standards, so their failure to challenge the President or report factual information contradicting him for months is a far greater outrage than anything posted on DU. They don't have the credibility to mock this site for espousing crazy conspiracy theories.

The dishonest way that they attributed the opinions to "DU" in general further erodes their vanishing credibility. This is exactly why people are turning to the internet for news.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #292
304. And THAT is exactly why the MSM seeks to silence us
Edited on Thu Jan-06-05 02:32 AM by Tinoire
the dishonest way that they attributed the opinions to "DU" in general further erodes their vanishing credibility. This is exactly why people are turning to the internet for news.

Indeed! Which is exacly why I find this even more disturbing. It is alarming that we would so easily play into the hands of those who seek to silence us because we expose their hypocrisy and everyday people wake up realizing they were lied to and that "the kooks were right".

Thank God more and more people dared and still dare to question.

Thanks for some very good posts you had earlier in this thread btw.

To seek the respect of those who loathe you, will only make them loathe you more.
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Conspirationalist Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 03:50 AM
Response to Reply #292
320. This is...
... a discussion forum; not a news forum.
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Old Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 03:47 AM
Response to Reply #270
319. This is too sad
Look at this mess. Look at the fighting. The very moment we need to hold together we are coming apart. Did this HAVE to happen now?

We all demand our elected representatives stand to the contrived criticism of the press, yet we fall on our own at the very first insult to our sense of intellectual superiority.

We are splitting into two groups, one of which wants their viewpoints and opinions to become rules of order. Isn't that remarkably similar to the neocon's attitude?


MESSAGE BOARD RULES (SHORT VERSION)
2. Treat people with respect. Don't be rude or bigoted. Discuss the message, not the messenger.

Calling people who have ideas you do not agree with 'kooky' or a troll is both rude and bigoted.


What a piece of work is man. The freepers sleep fat with satisfaction tonight.

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MaraJade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #270
382. Amen!
We must never, ever subrogate our right to free speech and our right to question authority to "being embarrassed" because some people
disagree with us.

Remember. . .most of the people who are condemning DUers are the ones
who believe everything the government says WITHOUT QUESTION. These
people think that everything the Repugs do is in the best interest of
the American people, and they believe that anyone who is not marching in lockstep with the propaganda from the White House is completely in the wrong.

We mustn't forget that the real danger to democracy is a citizenry of
"sheeple" who blindly follow without question.

Vigorous debate is the answer to that, and DU is the best forum for
such debate.

We must never, ever allow anything the right wing says to change us and who we are. We can ask people to give supportive reasons for their beliefs, and we can present debate on the opposite side of same, but we must never, ever ask people to stop stating their beliefs. Doing that would make us exactly like the right wingnuts who are slamming us.
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Kitka Donating Member (488 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #270
387. Excellent post. I agree completely.
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Terror Sell Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #270
390. Gaining legitimacy by slouching toward conformity?
If this really cool place loses the free flowing exchange of ideas, Democratic Underground will be neither. Just a newbie's 2 cents.
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HalfManHalfBiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #270
410. The fact remains that humans can not induce a 9.0 quake. Period.
This has nothing to do with FOX, NYT, 9/11, JFK, or any other conspiracy theories.

If you believe that humans caused the Sumatra quake, you are a stone kook.
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Kitka Donating Member (488 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #410
424. Yep. And we can prove that in a discussion.
That is, if a discussion on the topic is allowed. When its not, the opportunity to discuss and debunk such ideas is gone. So is free exchange of ideas.
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Ediacara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #424
436. Look, maybe you've missed something
But there has been a discussion, hundreds of them actually.

They go like this:

1) Science illiterate wackjob cuts and pastes a huge block of text from the internet.

2) Science literate DUer kindly refutes the nutjobery.

3) Science illiterate wackjob cuts and pastes another huge block of text from the internet in response, that doesn't actually have anything to do with the previous discussion.

4) Et cetera for 100, 200, 300 posts.

5) As the discussion continues it becomes apparent that the wackjob knows that he/she is lying.

Now multiply this by one hundred threads and you see the problem admin was faced with. The idea that humans caused the earthquake or tsunami is completely baseless. Honestly, the "WTC was loaded with TNT" theory has more basis in fact that the man-made earthquake discussion.

This is not squelching the free exchange of ideas, it's destroying a cancer of repeated lying that is killing DU.
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #270
419. I agree as well, Tinoire
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uncle ray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #270
435. agreed, and thank you, again!
this is not the site i came to a few years ago. i can only hope skinner listens to veteran posters like yourself, since low post counters like myself will never be heard.
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InvisibleBallots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #270
516. how do I nominate this post for the front page?
All the buttons confuse me.
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nascarblue Donating Member (693 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 01:13 AM
Response to Original message
273. Something to think about...
Edited on Thu Jan-06-05 01:31 AM by nascarblue
I did see that on Fox and started screaming at my television. It was so...well, Fox! LOL..

I did not read all 270 replies, but don't you think that steadily rising atmosphere of 1st amendment repression might have a bit to do with it? It smells a bit like McCarthyism on the rise to me. After all, who would have thought 6 years ago that environmentalists and peaceful protestors would be labeled as "terrorists"??

Nuns arrested during School of the Americas protest
http://www.peacenowar.net/Nov%2017%2002--SOA.htm#1

As far as the tsunami goes, I will not be scared by some station like Fox. There is still some valid questions as to the timeline and the lack of communication.
http://globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO412C.html
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 01:42 AM
Response to Original message
283. Skinner: You rock.
:yourock:

Once again:

:yourock: :yourock:
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HamiltonHabs32 Donating Member (465 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #283
295. Excellent article
Kudos to DU
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 01:54 AM
Response to Original message
287. A "Believe It or Not" forum would be helpful..
Posts that go "beyond the pale" withour actively breaking the board rules, could just be shifted there, and perhaps the "copy-paste" feature could be disabled, so people could not re-post them willynilly :shrug:, or perhaps each post could come with a "readymade disclaimer" about what the admin sponsors :shrug:

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fortyfeetunder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 02:57 AM
Response to Original message
313. Thanks Skinner
At first I thought the stories of triumphing over the tsunami tragedy was a joke, but thanks to your thread and links, I am frankly appalled this wasn't picked up on. What an effing shame.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 03:01 AM
Response to Original message
314. Gee Skinner, Who are we to argue with "The Journal Oilfield Review"
but they themselves clearly stated in an article "Seismicity in the Oilfield" that their "endeavors" can have a destabilising effect on
tectonic plates already under stress"

Hate to upset you, but here it is:



"Normally, tsunamis are part of nature, like the wind blowing through a tree. We even have a word for them, and since it's Japanese, we know it's a very old word. Nature is dangerous. No matter how complex civilization may get, we must coexist with nature, which means survive, harness the elements, and defend ourselves against them. The entire process of what we call 'civilization' is about our relationship with nature.

The Earth right now is experiencing many repercussions of environmental devastation from centuries of civilization, but mostly from the 19th and 20th centuries. And lots of this involves oil. In fact, it would be more accurate to say that all of it involves oil. I learned today from a writer named Andrew Limburg that there has been much seismic testing for oil off the coast of Australia. Many whales have been beaching themselves in the past few days around this part of the world; all these whale beachings are the result of industry or the military testing underwater weapons. It has long been understood that a method called sonic air testing and other methods of searching for oil can cause geological activity -- that is, earthquakes.

Drilling can also cause earthquakes. An article in the spring 2000 edition of the journal Oilfield Review, titled "Seismicity in the Oilfield," informs us matter-of-factly, "If the rock mass is already under large tectonic stresses, the energy added by man's endeavors can have a destabilizing influence. Even minor actions can trigger strong seismicity" -- that is, quakes.

Sunday's earthquake came where the Australian tectonic plate and the Indian tectonic plate meet. Two days before the 9.0 earthquake that sent tsunamis through south Asia and eastern Africa, there was an 8.1 quake off the southeastern coast of Tasmania, part of Australia -- 8.1 is extremely powerful, indeed one of the biggest earthquakes in 20 years -- and this was barely reported by the Western media. This was followed by a 6.1 aftershock a little later in the day.

Was the earlier Tasmanian quake set off by the seismic testing and/or oil drilling? Earthquakes can have a 'knock effect', which almost certainly began in Australia and then set off the 9.0 in Indonesia. And what about the second major quake in two days, the one that's getting all the attention? This occurred in an extremely oil rich region of the world, and coincidentally it happened to flatten the homes of a lot of Muslims.

Meanwhile, the South Pole is also going through a lot of changes, as ice melts and the reduced weight on the polar region changes the shape of the planet -- slightly, but potentially enough to loosen up tectonic plates that might have held for a long time had there not been external influences. "



Skinner, mail this to the New York Times and tell them to tell Bush's buddies at the "Journal of Oil Review" that they're loony for stating that certain oil testing maneuvers can set off "already stressed tectonic plates".


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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 03:05 AM
Response to Reply #314
316. I wonder if he only contributed $10,000 because like the freepers
Edited on Thu Jan-06-05 03:06 AM by Pallas180
he believes they "had it coming"...sick bastids.
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Conspirationalist Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 03:58 AM
Response to Reply #314
323. That's great, Pallas180
Which issue does it come from? Is it archived anywhere on the internet?

I used not to believe in all sorts of things: till I realized there was "something in" most of them! Sometimes not that much; but often more than one might think!
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oblivious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 05:32 AM
Response to Reply #314
341. Wow! So much for the pseudo physicists and their 'tinfoil hat' insults.
I never had much interest in this topic, but sure enough when you see people coming out of the woodwork with their name-calling and "just basic physics, madam" and "stop this, you're embarassing us" crap you know there's a programmed effort to stop discussion, and it's time to pay attention.

Thanks Pallas. Now it's getting interesting.
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Ediacara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #341
438. As someone who's actually read the article in question
I can state plainly that it does not say what Pallas thinks it says.
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Slit Skirt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #438
461. how about posting a link...so we may all be able to read
and judge.
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uncle ray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #341
439. there is MUCH proof online
that man has influenced quakes up to about 7.0. try searching things like "induced earthquakes" or "brine pumping earthquake" "oroville reservoir" and be amazed at the amount of information out there on the subject, much of it recent. hardly a dam has been built in recent decades that hasn't had a study on it's effect on fault lines etc.

if we can make little ones, we can make big ones. how big?
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Slit Skirt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #314
365. thank you pallas
i appreciate the information and the post.
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Ediacara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #314
437. Have you read this article?
It's not saying what you claim it's saying.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #314
480. Pallas, I would appreciate a link to that particular article
I know there are already a ton of them out there, and I have lots of info from Indian Ocean drilling sites but the more the merrier since my experience is that the more evidence you have, the quieter the "let's-not-embarrass-ourselves-in-front-of-Sean-Hannity" crowd gets.

Thanks & much obliged.
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Emillereid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 03:29 AM
Response to Original message
318. Food for thought -- kooky or otherwise. Kooky ideas that turned up true!
Just found this marvelous site that enumerated all kinds of ideas that were first shunned as crazy, but that later were accepted as 'fact.' Ain't the human experience interesting?

http://www.amasci.com/weird/vindac.html

RIDICULED DISCOVERERS,
VINDICATED MAVERICKS

2002 William Beaty



Weird science versus revolutionary science:

While it's true that at least 99% of fringe science announcements are just as bogus as they seem, we cannot dismiss every one of them without any investigation. If we do, then we'll certainly take our place among the ranks of scoffers who dismissed (or even blocked) a large number of major scientific discoveries through history. Beware! Many apparently-sane discoveries such as powered flight and drifting continents appear normal and acceptable to us only because we have such powerful HINDsight. These same advancements seemed obviously wrong during the times they were first discovered.

In science, pursuing revolutionary advancements can be like searching for diamonds hidden in sewage. It's a shame that the realms of questionable ideas contain "diamonds" of great value. It makes judging crazy theories much more difficult. If crazy discoveries were *always* bogus, then we'd have good reason to automatically reject them. However, since the "diamonds" exist, we must never automatically discard ideas and observations which seem appear to be part of the "sewage." Sometimes the "obvious" craziness turns out to be a genuine cutting edge discovery...... more ......
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Conspirationalist Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 04:04 AM
Response to Reply #318
324. This is a good site too.
I've just read it through. Good job I'm a fast reader! I've read every post on this entire thread too, so I daresay I haven't missed anything. Now that's what I always do. Good job I'm a fast reader.
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Historic NY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 04:17 AM
Response to Original message
328. The NY Times home of the false concocted Jason Blair stories....
Fo x(Faux) News hoe of the Swift Boat lies network, if they are pitching stone they better be ready to receive them....
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Cooley Hurd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 04:25 AM
Response to Original message
331. Skinner, fuck the media who engage in such lazy-ass journalism!
The corporate media is the biggest cancer on our democracy, as well as our society in general (witness Fox's Who's Your Daddy?). I still believe deeply that their time will come, and all the neo-American-Fascism enabling they've done for the past decade will ultimately be their downfall.

Kudos to you for answering critics of DU! :thumbsup: And I'll still wear my DU T-Shirt and display my DU bumper sticker proudly! :)
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T Town Jake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 04:36 AM
Response to Original message
334. Thank you. Though the grumbling has already started...
...from some quarters (and in this very thread), the vast majority of us both appreciate & support this statement by the DU Admins.
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Ediacara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 04:47 AM
Response to Original message
336. Thanks Skinner and pals!
I for one am happy about this, as I am sure most people are. I don't really have anything against conspiracy theories, most of the time. Except in the case of the tsunami.

There is no way that earthquakes and tsunamis can be created by humans. Period. Any type of trickery as suggested by conspiracy theorists is easily detected by seismographs.

What has happened on DU in the last two weeks is an endless onslaught of tsunami conspiracy lies. Over and over, two or three threads a day repeating the same lies. Those lies are refuted over and over and over again, but they're the zombies of the conspiracy world. They just get reposted in a slightly different format, over and over again.

If you have a question about geology: fine, but if your sole purpose is to post and repost things you know to be lies, then screw off!

Thanks again for this update guys!
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FubarFly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 04:59 AM
Response to Original message
337. Skinner, Why on Earth are you encouraging these brutes?
No sane person would think that the anonymous voices of a few posters in an internet message board represents an entire community- let alone the official position of it's administrators. This type of thinking is so basically idiotic that it would bore a child. Making your views clear is one thing, playing into the hands of a corrupt media with a knee jerk authoritarian response- effectively intimidating some honest proponents of democracy- is quite another. Can't you just say that while you adamantly disagree with some of the sentiments expressed on this board, you support the open exchange of ideas, and the right of free speech? Can anyone who doesn't already have an agenda to silence DU really find fault with that?

Remember: CENSORSHIP IS EXACTLY WHAT THE NEO-FASCISTS WANT.

Please don't play by their rules.

Sometimes the best ideas sprout from the most unlikeliest of sources. Even the wisest among us can't determine from whom those will come. It would be folly to suggest otherwise. Just because you can't see value in an outlandish theory, doesn't mean that value isn't there.

I sincerely hope you reconsider your position on this matter and inevitably, similar issues in the future.
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LynzM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #337
375. FubarFly, ITA
You said it much more eloquently than I could have, however.

Skinner, while I applaud you for taking the NYT to task for their choice to represent all of DU based on an insignificant percentage of the posts here, I balk at the thought of censorship that is due to the presentation of unpopular or 'kooky' ideas. I've seen plenty of threads here that are 'kooky' and allowed to stay. While I agree that DU should not be a place to spread or discuss hate, bigotry, sexism, racism, ethnicism, etc., I disagree that we should get rid of the presentation of ideas or questions that are out of the mainstream.

I think that we do enough refuting of ideas here that anyone reading a whole thread would quite quickly become aware of the majority opinion, and if they were sound journalists, would present both the idea and the resulting discussion. Just because this did not happen, I don't think it's reason for censorship of these ideas or discussions. Is there repetition? Of course, it's the nature of a message board this size. Almost any topic discussed here will come up several times. Link to other threads, if you don't feel like repeating yourself.
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Califooyah Operative Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 05:23 AM
Response to Original message
339. The only point i disagree with is that DU is not a threat. We're able to
Edited on Thu Jan-06-05 05:26 AM by Califooyah Operative
lobby with decent numbers, just look at today for example the many many calls to congress, and look at many of the petitions DUers have helped to create/distribute/and get into the 10's of thousands. We've gotten stories into the main stream news through our letters, and it's not uncommon for us to have the scoop before they publish their polished stories anyways. I'm not saying were a huge threat, but we're becoming a decently poweful force when it comes to activist/lobbying/etc, we're getting paid attention to by major news outlets for a reason.
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mogster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 05:25 AM
Response to Original message
340. So, now the RW media has managed to split DU
And it didn't take that much of an effort, really ;-)

By accepting the FOX/NYT argumentation as measuring sticks this time around, all they need to do the next time they want to shut down the discussion, is to point to this event as precedence.
Who can argue with that? If they can set the standards now for what's kooky or not, who's gonna decide the next time that it isn't? Once you fold, you fold, and it's much more difficult to take a stand for topics that may be important, although seemingly 'conspirational'.

About that word:
In a world where black is white, up is down, war is peace and slavery made out to be freedom; who can really tell what's 'conspirational' and what's not?
As mentioned by some here: in the autumn of 2002 the Bush govt. (and Blair) hurled ANYTHING promoting the war into the public debate. It was a scam performed right in front of our eyes, and it continues in the RW media every day. I've debated enough rw'ers to know that they DO believe that there were WMD in Iraq. It's a FACT to them. And because the US public space is dysfunctional, who can say they're wrong? Some media says there was WMD, some don't. Some say there wasn't, but makes every effort to make it appear that there was.
Pick a choice, the confusion always favor the liars anyway.

Personally, I've made a mental 'shelf' were I put all such things; the strange prelude to 911 (did they know, did they incite it, did they plan it, did they DO it? Or are they 'innocent'?), the apparent planned, funded and targeted rise of fascism in the US that may be traced back to 1970, and, yeah, what have you.
And now this HAARP thing. All filed under 'perhaps, perhaps not'.
Who cares? The main thing still remains: Bush & company attacked a country without reason, and that's ENOUGH for me.
I don't really need HAARP to convince me that something is wrong in the world ;-)
But I still want to read about it.

This is a classic RW attack: they attack the credibility of the data posted at DU because their own data is so flawed.
If you stand on a wobbly blurb of nonsense and the opponent stands on a solid rock of truth and common sense, what would you do to increase your cred? Well, by creating doubt about the reality as it is forwarded here, you'll manage several things:
- put a bind on the free flow of information - who want's to be branded a kook?
- discredit the whole community as unreliable
- take the heat of your own flawed (understatement) information/argumentation WHICH IS PICKED OUT OF ALICE IN WONDERLAND
- store a little 'bomb' for future use by having this case as a referral if DU really should become a threat

It's sad.
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squeak Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 06:49 AM
Response to Original message
346. I just Talked to God
"I am not sure why God allowed this disaster. I know it His mercy that preserves all of our lives, but we rarely ask why about the good days. We just take those for granted."

I just talked to God. Apparently, the earthquake was an accident, a terrible tragic mistake,
and he'll try to send a few more angels down once he figures out logistics and financing.
Much of the work in Heaven is being taken up by War, Famine, Greed etc. and some guy
in Washington keeps tying up his hotline.

There was also a small notice (overlooked by Clerics) from Gabriel asking to keep the faith
through the absurdities of reporting, and that Jesus has been on holiday over the last
couple weeks, hence, his presence has not been noted. Mohammud, filling in for Jesus,
wants to express that his office is aware of the situation and paperwork has been filed
and is awaiting approval to proceed. This message also declaims the accidental nature
of the tragedy and that it is NOT retribution against Muslims, Christians, Jews, Buddhists,
or any other religious party. It has been recommended that people continue praying as usual, and to think compasssionately toward your fellow beings whether they are in tragic
circumstances or not.
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ashmanonar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #346
429. LOL
this is great, and all the moreso for pointing out a fact: there aren't 3 different gods for the 3 different monotheistic religions, but one and the same...just as the different prophets were preaching for the same reasons...

"and some guy in Washington keeps tying up his hotline." and this line is just hilarious!
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 06:54 AM
Response to Original message
347. This says it all:
"But I do think that some people have figured out that they can use extreme posts from Democratic Underground to paint all Democrats as extremists."

And they're harming...not only DU...but those who post sincere threads about government wrongdoing that seemed to get mixed in with the unbelievable conspiracy theories.
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ClintonTyree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 06:56 AM
Response to Original message
348. 2 words for the NYT......Jayson Blair......3 words for FAUX.........
Bill "falafel" O'Reilly.
Don't go casting stones here you jackasses, you've got enough skeletons in your own closets to keep you busy for quite a while.

When all of your writers and on-air personalities are without sin, then you can cast the first stone. Until then, SHUT THE HELL UP!

These people were supposedly vetted for your respective medium. Anyone here can remain anonymous if they wish, they can post anything they want. You're to be held to a higher standard and those standards cannot be applied to an anonymous web-site.

Assholes. Fox, the right arm of the Bush Administration. No ethics whatsoever.
The New York Times. 'nuff said.

This shit really pisses me off.
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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #348
414. and a second to the grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
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Pacifist Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 07:56 AM
Response to Original message
352. In 1985/6 I was misquoted on television news in a story that was
edited to be extremely misleading. It had to do with the availability of The Satanic Verses in bookstores in case anyone is wondering. The deliberately inflammatory story resulted in someone coming in to my store and spitting in my face.

Several years ago I was misquoted in my local paper which resulted in several hate letters. My eight year old son accidentally read one of them and it frightened him.

I have been extraordinarily wary of the press due to these two instances so what DU is experiencing strikes me as hardly new and very typical. I am so frustrated on your behalf. I am sorry DU is being treated in this manner. The journalists should be ashamed of themselves!

As for the instances I mention above, the spitter was a liberal and the hate letters came from conservatives. My point being that there are over-reacting extremists on either side. Please folks, don't stoop to the level of ignorant jackasses.
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 08:29 AM
Response to Original message
361. The NYTimes should talk...
After all, wasn't through Judith Miller and her authoritive source of Chalabi that helped to legitimize the illegal invasion of Iraq?

Talk about conspiracy theories--the NYTimes should hang their head in shame. They're party to propping up an illusion that cost human life.
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 08:59 AM
Response to Original message
363. Not sure why one should allow the NY Times and FOX to determine content.
They are hardly credible sources. The NY Times eagerly published all sorts of trash regarding Whitewater without ever issuing a retraction when the stories proved unfounded. And FOX is FOX. Far worse than allowing a few unsupported tsunami theories to surface, both sources still pretend Bush won the 2000 election. Except for obvious trolling, it seems better to let people post and then find themselves subjected to the corrective posts of others.
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Jeff in Cincinnati Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 09:13 AM
Response to Original message
364. Tidal Wave Caused by Rush Limbaugh Flatulence...
Would that be a kooky theory or just a mean-spirited swipe at a complete asshole?

But think about it. Really. Rush and a combo platter. Could be the end of civilization as we know it.
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Steve2525 Donating Member (32 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 09:27 AM
Response to Original message
366. I agree, no more conspiracy theories
let's stick to the facts
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farmbo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 09:38 AM
Response to Original message
368. The Grey Lady's goin' down...but not without a fight
As the NYT and the other ancient, creaking dinosaurs of the print media establishment look on helplessly, more and more of their potential readers are getting their news, fresh and unvarnished, from internet sources like DU. This trend will no doubt continue and the day will arrive when, alas, newsprint will go directly to the bottom of the birdcage, without a day-long incarnation as the New York Times.

The process may be delayed, but not denied.

And the most effective way for the Times to delay the inevitable, is to stand on their arrogant perch and heap derision on their digital competition. Ergo, the Schwartz hit piece.

Buggy makers called the car manufacturers loony in an earlier time.
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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #368
412. yessssssssssssssssss
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
369. I don' t understand what this has to do with Ashlee Simpson getting booed
Edited on Thu Jan-06-05 09:39 AM by underpants
Well done Skinner
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jus_the_facts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
373. CBS Evening News is going to report tonight about GOD causing it.....
...saw the commercial for it around 4am this morning....so I guess freeper logic is now mainstream news worthy?! :eyes:

The envelope keeps gettin' pushed further and further to the extreme in ALL aspects of our lives...YET...not a goddamn thing is being DONE to solve anything...no matter how HARD anybody WORKS toward making sense out of ANYTHING....NOBODY IS ON THE SAME PAGE ANYMORE...oh fuck it...we ALL are deserving of what happens to humanity from the willfull ignorance that resides within us all...to various degrees. :nopity:




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genieroze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #373
386. Oh sure blame God, that's sane.
:eyes:
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
374. Thanks for the sanity. n/t
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Liberal In Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 10:21 AM
Response to Original message
376. I read this yesterday and thought it was brilliant n/t
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MaraJade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
377. There's an easy and simple way to handle this. . .
DU could set up a new forum. One for supporters and refuters of conspiracy theories, or other "urban legends." Anything whatsoever related to any item that might be in the nature of a "conspiracy theory" would be limited to posting in these threads only, and only registered users with valid email addresses could post to these
forums. IP tracking could also be applied to anyone who posts there
with rejection of anonymous users whose IP address cannot be determined in order to prevent troll activity. This would also help the moderators to find potentially inflammatory material, which would be aggregated to a single location. The threads posted in these forums should be required to follow the proper form for legitimate debate, one of which is found here:

http://www.britishdebate.com/resources/hb_oxfordguide.a...

Posters could also be required to use a sort of template for the
posting of their "for" or "against" item, thusly:


1. Summary of poster's argument:

2. Assertions

Assertion #1

Supporting Evidence

Assertion #2 (if any)

Supporting Evidence

Assertion #3 (if any)

Supporting evidence

3. Conclusion:

With anyone who flames or refuses to use the template having their
post removed by mods.

This would do two things: first, anyone with a conspiracy theory would be forced to research it thoroughly and not simply post something out of emotion or hotheadedness; then, anyone who wanted to
refute that conspiracy theory would be able to present their argument in a logical, non-flaming way.

I believe that FAUX and the MSM are stirring this tempest at DU in
order to destroy us. They hope to either turn us against each other,
thus collapsing the "big tent," or turn this place into a heavily
monitored/moderated shadow of its former self. We cannot allow them to win on this one. Only if we show responsible action now can we truly turn this thing around.

And DU remains a place where everyone (who isn't a troll) is welcome.

Just my two cents worth. . .


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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
378. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
379. Please, Skinner et al, consider a DEBUNK ME forum.
I weighed in briefly in the aforementioned "kooky" thread, mainly because I believe that asking off-the-wall-questions is valuable. You get answers! There are so many smart people on DU, and I saw a beautiful response from a GEOLOGIST that explained how, yes, human activities CAN cause some geological events (such as when mining companies inject water underground) but that there is no evidence whatsoever that humans can move a tectonic plate. Nuf said!

It SUCKS that the MSM feels obliged to mock DU, but perhaps if posts you all deem "kooky" can be moved to a place that is DESIGNATED for kookiness and debunking, everyone can be happy. People can ask questions and develop theories, and other people can knock them down, and the mainstream of DU will be unsullied.

I'd hate see DU lose some of its looseness and charm just because MSM is now watching and loading for bear.

Meanwhile, I'm also writing to the NYT.
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genieroze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #379
384. That's a good idea, make it a fun thing. eom
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genieroze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
381. The problem isn't the theories of what caused the earthquake
Edited on Thu Jan-06-05 11:15 AM by genieroze
the real problem is why people weren't properly warned so they could evacuate before the Tsunami hit? Why are they concentrating on this crap which does nothing to prevent further problems? The problem is that MSM needs to start doing their jobs and they are the ones who have failed. Look what happened when it was reported that Bush sat at his ranch and said nothing or that the contributions from the US Government were basically pathetic. It got those people off their butts and they did what was right. What MSM should be doing is harping on the lack of advanced notice so it doesn't happen again anywhere.
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
388. I especially like your point #5
it's incredibly shoddy journalism to try to make something meaningful about individual message board posts, and it's unbelievable that the NYT would do this. (The RW pundits do it all the time, esp. the WSJ editorial page).
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truth2power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
394. I think this is a bad idea.
Alerting on someone who posts a kooky <insert adjective here> conspiracy theory.

We are letting the tail wag the dog, here. Maybe we should form a pool to take bets on what will be the NEXT thing the MSM will take us to task for. My point being that they will ridicule us no matter what we do.

If we stopped discussing anything remotely associated with politics and turned this board exclusively into a gardening forum, the pundits and assorted wackos would find some way to spin that to show that all Dems are kooks.

Don't you see what's happening here? We are taking the bait. We are doing their bidding.

I, personally, don't think there is any so-called conspiracy theory that's beyond being discussed. That's how I learn. I need to have it all out there and sort through it.

I am saddened that we would let the likes of Faux News and the NYT determine what we discuss on this board. They must be laughing their asses off!
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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #394
397. i agree 100%
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truth2power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #397
403. Thanks. I pretty much feel
like the outlier, here. There are questions I don't ask for exactly this reason. I don't want to be ridiculed for asking what just comes to mind. Some of the questions that occur to me are kind of off the wall, but I've always wondered about a lot of things.

I've been here since shortly before 9/11, and I have my bona fides in my own community, as far as liberal activism, going back 30+ years.

I'd hate to think I'd be alerted on because I raised an issue that might make DU look bad to wacko troublemakers. Feh!

That's just what they want. To shut us up!
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gandalf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
396. Why I am disappointed -- some thoughts about filtering
Edited on Thu Jan-06-05 12:38 PM by gandalf
The obvious success of DU is also a consequence of its being a forum for open discussions where even far fetched ideas can be put forward. Thus, an incredible wealth of information is stored in the DU archives.

Due to the wealth of well-researched and thoughtful posts, DU is a strong forum and can tolerate some "kooky conspiracy crackpots".

DU is a private forum, and everybody can leave if he doesnt agree with the rules. But that does not mean that the admins should act like dictators or have no responsibility for the users. They depend on the users for contributions be it a post, be it a financial contribution. The success of DU is a result of the interplay of a well-designed and well-run forum and the amount and diversity of its users.

Newspapers and scientific journals only publish articles that pass a review process. This filtering process guarantees a minimum level of quality on the one hand. On the other hand some topics will never appear because their publication would hurt certain interests a scientific project of a reviewer, or the relationship to an important advertiser, or the reputation of the journal or newspaper. In comparison to these publications, a forum like DU has the inestimable value of having no restrictions on the topics that can be published (as long as minimum rules are adhered to, like the law). So, many important things which will never be published in a mainstream newspaper but which are nevertheless important and well-researched were posted on DU.

The recent move of the DU admins to ban threads which discuss other than natural reasons for the tsunami disaster seems arbitrary and tantamount to censorship. Moreover, they set a dangerous precedent. Will in the future other topics be banned? Will a general rule be enforced that forbid the discussion of conspiracy theories (like in Germany, where it is an indictable offense to say that Jews were not murdered in Auschwitz)? Such a rule would eventually kill all discussions related to governmental crimes, because these are always kooky conspiracy theories.

Im only a German guy, and will never vote for your candidate. However (as you can see from my donor star) I valued DU as a place where many interesting open discussions took place. Personally Im interested in government-related crimes which is exactly the topic threatened by this recent move. If I may voice my personal opinion (and yes, I know Im free to leave), I am disappointed by the decision of the admins. I am sad that DU seems to change its character and go mainstream.
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tngledwebb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
399. NYT and MSM has an agenda: they are complicit with this regime.
This is proof, if more was needed. With this absurd tsunami 'CT', perhaps planted by pro trolls, NYT intends to undermine DU's credibility by painting it as the leading 'nutty internet conspiracy theory' website.

Why? To ridicule and quash by association two more believable 'conspiracy theories' that have been frequently discussed here at DU.

The first of these goes back a few years and is incendiary (see archived forums) but the latest, and possibly most damaging to the Bush regime, is high profile now, and its forums lay out much verifiable evidence of massive election fraud. This 'CT' is target one- it is a quickly growing threat to this admins' legitimacy, and DU is directly responsible for much of the ongoing grass-roots activism.

That the NYT has taken this very odd tack should at least make DU members and admin very proud. It tells of the potency and solidarity of the small 'd' democratic underground.

But we all should be more afraid than ever for the future of free speech in this country.
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mirrera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
402. I want to check if these conspiracies are approved of:
I think more then 1 person shot JFK.
I think his brother was also killed by the CIA.
I think 911 happened differently then how we were told it happened.
I think that some of the characters involved with the Bay of Pigs, are older-wiser-sneakier and still doing nasty things
I think some of the characters that were involved in Iran/Contra are involved in similar illegal stuff.
I think the BCCI scandal is wider and deeper then we were told, and some of the same characters still launder money.
I think Osama is still a CIA asset
I think where ever the CIA is operating, drug running increases.
I think the counting of our vote is corrupt.
I think the Media is blocking stories on Iraq so the Americans won't feel the horror, and protest the war.
I think the corporate media is being used as a tool by a corrupt administration to manage our perceptions of reality.
I think it is working.
There are more things that I think about, and it sure helps to talk about them with smart people that like to do research, and can point to their sources. In some circles my ideas seem pretty kooky. If in my reading I ever come across a story of some new weapon system that has been developed to cause a fault line to shift, leading to an earthquake or something, I will MAKE SURE I don't mention it here. I just want to check if I can talk about these other conspiracies at DU...
Maria

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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #402
406. excellent post
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WoodrowFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #402
409. yes, they are kooky since you asked.