BBV: Serious question here

[LearnedHand]

Suppose -- regardless of all our efforts to stop the Diebold machines, etc. -- we end up in November 2004 with the elecronic voting foisted on us as BushCo's WH intends.

Do we have an alternative strategy? Will we, for example, try to rally folks to demand paper ballots instead?

I'm really, really worried and scared. <<<shiver>>>

[gristy]

1. exit polling

will help identify if the vote has been "adjusted" in any state. Can then go to the courts, though we saw how that worked out in Florida. But court behavior could very well be different in other states. Hopefully one or more organizations are getting these ducks lined up BEFORE the election.

The one thing, over and above everything else, that will innoculate us against a * victory through vote-stealing, is a DEMOCRATIC LANDSLIDE, since they really can't shift the results more than a few percent. The BFEE, I think, is doing a pretty good job of helping us out in that regard.

Another important point is that the more widespread stealing votes through the tampering of electronic voting machines becomes, the more likely that someone is going to be caught RED HANDED, and this will bring down the whole enterprise.

So don't sell the farm yet, and keep your chin UP!!

[LearnedHand]

2. Thanks, gristy

But I would feel SO much more comfortable with a system like the one in you subject line.

[gristy]

4. I am pretty confident that a large number of organizations

from the right and left, as well as non-partisan organizations, will be setting up for exit polling next fall. Coming out of your neighborhood polling place, it's going to feel like that scene dodging Hare Krishnas in the movie Airport. But seriously, you should DEFINITELY tell them how you voted if you are asked.

[Eloriel]

7. Umm, help me out here

Another important point is that the more widespread stealing votes through the tampering of electronic voting machines becomes, the more likely that someone is going to be caught RED HANDED, and this will bring down the whole enterprise.


Just how could that happen?

Under the current circumstances, there is no way to acquire such proof. The code cannot be reviewed by anyone except vendors themselves. Not even the certifiers at national or state levels have reviewed the code that we can tell, though Ciber claims it does in its capacity as Independent Testing Authority (ITA). Further, there’s no way to prove that any of the final election results were incorrect because there is no paper trail. Even if there were, in Georgia and other states, only the “electronic vote” is the legal vote, rendering VVPB unusable for recounts which could be used as evidence. No exit polls.

In other words, not only can they steal our votes with impunity, they’ve made it literally impossible for anyone to catch them doing it, or prove after the fact that they did.

So what am I missing?

Eloriel

[gristy]

9. I was thinking of an insider who becomes aware of a conspiracy and

blows the whistle. Beyond that, what you say is true. And any whistle-blower is going to need some kind of hard evidence, and that may be hard to come by, I admit. But, on the other hand, vote-stealers do not walk on water. They will make mistakes.

All that said, I support the battle for paper ballots, and am fighting for this myself, as you know.

[shance]

14. However, if voting data can be manipulated, then how would you have proof?

Take them to court on what? A hunch??

Seems to me that here lies el problemo.

[gristy]

15. Solid circumstantial evidence has resulted in many a conviction

for other crimes. That's not to say it would be easy. And anti-BBV activists of course need to continue their efforts to get BBV OUT of our polling places. But the courts have shown themselves to be our friends many times, especially with a solid legal team.

Just one more angle that ought to be covered, since it is just impossible that we will get BBV out of ALL the states by next fall.

[Eloriel]

3. Don't get scared,

Get BUSY!

What's the situation in your state? Have you spoken to election officials in your county? At the Secretary of State level? Have you written letters to the editor? Have you called your representatives to get them to sign on to Rush Holt's bill?

Have you gone over to http://www.blackboxvoting.org and signed up on the Discussion Forum?

Remember: YOU HAVE THE POWER!!

I was talking to a woman today, here in Atlanta, who was very involved in fighting the FTC stuff. She was almost single-handedly (a slight exaggeration) responsible for getting the FTC public meeting which was held in Atlanta. And with virtually NO media coverage until the day before, and then sparse, it was well attended.

Anyway, a comment she made that got my attention was that it will probably take 2 million people on this issue to make a difference. So we'd better get busy, huh?

I think she and I are going to start an email list for Georgia activism on this issue -- not to take away from BBV.org activism, but to augment it (and promote BBV.org, of course) and draw more people in. And from that we'll work on getting some things done in Georgia -- not that DEMActivist hasn't done absolutely top notch work, but she certainly doesn't have enough time (unless you count between midnight and 3 a.m. of course) to spearhead a local grassroots activist effort too. (Hope she'll be a member, tho!)

Let's go, eh?

Eloriel

[LearnedHand]

5. Not sure about New Mexico

I'm relatively new here; didn't move here in time to vote last November. I did mention BBV to a League of Women Voters here. She'd never heard of the issue. I think that might be one way to get some things going. Albuquerque is very politically active, so there are probably many avenues to get this information out.

Thanks, Eloriel.

[quaker bill]

19. BBV

I live in Florida, enough said?

[LearnedHand]

20. <sigh> YOUR voting went the way of stone spears...

...I'm afraid. Guess they tested it all out on the Richardson/Bush vote for Texas guv, then implemented it in Florida.

[bearfan454]

28. Welcome to Du !

Now you can get the real news..............bearfan454

[Patriot_Spear]

6. Maybe I read it wrong, but...

What would happen if some of the BBV activists rigged a few machines so that a non candidate won a precinct- say Darth Vader- how would Diebold and the victim state recovery from that, short of covering it up?

Somewhere on here is a thread about that...

[Eloriel]

8. Well, what you're suggesting is illegal

Tempting, interesting if not fun to contemplate perhaps, but illegal.

Eloriel

[Patriot_Spear]

10. Illegal, yes...

But can you think of a more dramatic and irrefutable way to establish that non-verifiable, non-open source code, electronic voting is a big mistake?

Talk about the Sampson Option... LOL

[juajen]

22. Yeah, but

they would never allow Darth to win. Would see it immediately as a test of the system and they would make sure it failed.

[pansypoo53219]

11. if the polls

have the chimp going down before the election, no way they can show he just by a miricle happened to squeak a win. we have to have a landslide.

[LearnedHand]

12. I agree...

...and that's what I'm hoping for. I think, though, that every time I see chimpy smirk -- or worse, see Cheny snarl -- I get this sinking feeling that they've already decided all the possible outcomes, and they win, evey time.

[gristy]

13. And I think you are overestimating their ability.

They don't know how to stop this freefall, and they don't know HOW they are going to win next fall (though they have some things they are going to try, you can be sure).

But then, on the other hand, they may have even given up trying to win next fall already, and are just focusing on finishing the job of destroying our government and economy in the remaining 14 months.

[DEMActivist]

17. I think we've managed to do some damage already

Don't you think that the Ohio and Maryland decisions to hold off on the Diebold machines have put a crimp in the numbers?

Seriously, Ohio has already admitted they are NOT going to be electronic by 2004. I think those 24 electoral votes were already considered "in the bag." Where are they going to make those up?

Maryland is another "in the bag" state they may well lose.

Pennsylvania is another.

I think we've managed already to put a crimp in their presumptions. We've just got to keep this up for now.

[LearnedHand]

18. Thanks, DEMActivist

I didn't realize Ohio and Maryland had decided to hold off. That's pretty heartening.

And Gristy, thanks to you, too. I know I am probably giving them too much credit. I think it's a built-in defensive mechanism; sort of like the old "if I don't expect too much, I won't be too disappointed" routine.

[gristy]

21. OK

I know I am probably giving them too much credit.

So, just to reiterate, my point is don't under-estimate OR over-estimate our opponent. Those who would steal an election are indeed dangerous and we do need to work hard on a grass-roots effort to expose them, especially their efforts to do this through the use of electronic voting systems. Even paper is not a panacea: we need to monitor our states with regard to what procedures they plan to use for paper ballots and optical scan. So don't take anything for granted.

But remember, our opponents DO NOT walk on water.

As Eloriel has said, take the fight to your letters to the editor page, to your Secretary of State, your state representatives, your U.S. representatives, and talk to your friends/family.

[bearfan454]

29. I did write a letter to the SOS of Tx.

They never wrote back. I am going to forward the letters to the Austin American Statesman newspaper.

[Andy_Stephenson]

16. FAILURE...

Is not an option!

[juajen]

23. Hi GBC

Glad to see you posting in your great hearty manner. Love and kisses.

[Eloriel]

24. Damn straight

:hi:

Eloriel

[yellowdawgdem]

25. legal methods

I'm thinking that there must be some legal methods that would help the dems in 004 election. For instance, absentee voting- granted, this is in no way secure from tampering. But what if lots of people opted to vote absentee. Would this alter the outcome?

[bearfan454]

30. I have thought and posted the same thing here on DU

lots of times. The DO have to hand count the absentee ballots.

[peabody71]

26. MEETUP.com exit polling meetup!!!

Dean hasmentioned 'Exit Polling'.
I think a meetup with Dean's help would be a huge success.

[shirlden]

27. Two of the best things we can do

1. Get an absentee ballot and encourage all your friends to do the same.
2. Spend election day at your precinct as an exit poll taker or as a precinct worker. Here in Ohio the parties can appoint poll watchers to actually spend the day in the precinct to observe everything happening.

We have to be out there on the street getting Dems to the polls and being vocal and even obnoxious. Stay on message.....electronic voting machines are too easily hacked.

:kick:

[RedEagle]

31. Check Your State Election Laws

Probably somewhere on the SOS page.

If you can recount ballots, the by all means, encourage all the recounts anyone can afford!

Write to EVERY ONE of your state legislators, not just your own, about your concern about the issue and that you do NOT want your state to purchase any voting system that does not produce a voter verified paper ballot.

HAVA requires a permanent paper record with audit capacity. That can only mean a voter verified paper ballot folks.

State do not have to purchase machines by 2004. Because the legislation was so late in getting out, most states have applied for the waiver to 2006. If yours has not, and is crying about not enough time, time to ask them why?

Any law that forbids counting the paper ballot MUST be changed! Get cracking. You can form a citizen group, identify the changes in law you want, and get legislators to sponsor it. Oh, be prepared for a real battle from most SOS, who have been bought and sold on no paper. However, they have no right to undercut what the public wants and you need to make everyone aware that PAPER is the ONLY true EVIDENCE of actual, voter intent.

Voter verified paper ballots DO NOT infringe on the right of the disabled to vote. That printer on that Touch Screen does not inhibit them one little bit. It helps protect their vote, too. I'm very afraid that the visually impaired are going to be very, very disappointed. I watched one woman try to make Sequoia's system work for over 25 minutes... Vote independently, yes, get it done the same day, maybe not. I am not trying to be cruel, this is just the truth. Where the blind are concerned, I would think a keyboard system would provide better options.

Also, be aware that the blind have the ballot read back to them via headphones, so they get a review. I think both voter verified paper ballot systems now have the ability to print a bar code on the paper ballot, IN ADDITION to reading it, that the blind can scan and have audio verification. This is simply the best we can do at this point and I don't happen to believe that the rank and file of the visually disabled believe we should all have to vote on "faith", just because in large part, they do. That's like saying none of us should ever get a receipt for anything just because a small percentage can't read theirs. By the way, most organizations against paper ballots have had that edict come from the head down. Like the LWV, there are many on the lower levels who are angry and disgusted, because that decision WAS NOT made in the League manor, and those who protest are being literally told to just shut up. What picture does this make?

Get a network going and have it fan out. Write all the people involved, keep them updated, and keep them active.

Let them know big business wants to control their vote. How much more are they going to stand for? Corrupt business has cost them jobs, retirement funds, savings.... while that money, stolen from them by corporate fat cats who can never have too much "compensation," pour it back into the GOP coffers. YOUR money is financing Bush's campaign. Think they would use their own? Nope, just conduct fraudulent accounting, cut back more employees, rip a few hundred people off here and there, and give it to the Bush's.

What a deal.

If you are tired of it, then fight for your vote.