Why do you suppose India is turning down relief/help from the outside?

[CatWoman]

any theories?

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/T/TSUNAMI_INDIA_US?SITE=TXSAE&SECTION=INTERNATIONAL&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

[commander bunnypants]

1. from what I hear

tehy feel like they have enough of there own resources

CB

[illflem]

9. They're smart

and realize nothing comes free without strings attached.

[zann725]

37. Exactly!

n/t

[Deja Q]

59. Especially when anything comes from America.

:-(

[bpilgrim]

76. Tsumani Relief as Subterfuge? Pentagon re-enters Vietnam-era Thai air base

by Sirinapha
29 Dec 2004
Modified: 30 Dec 2004

Is the tsunami aftermath a “window of opportunity” for bolstering the Pentagon’s presence in Southeast Asia? The Thai people reject the proposed build-up of the American military at Utapao air base and in the Gulf of Thailand. The tragedy of the natural catastrophe in the Indian Ocean should not serve as a pretext for strengthening the U.S. military presence on land, sea and in the air in the region.

The Pentagon has announced it is returning to its old Vietnam War haunts at Utapao Royal Thai Naval Air Force Base 90 miles south of Bangkok on the Gulf of Thailand. In this clear escalation of the American military presence in Southeast Asia, the ostensible plan is to set up a "command center" for the tsunami emergency relief effort. Utapao air base will serve as a staging base for U.S. military and rescue aircraft. The emergency relief operations appear to provide a windfall opportunity for beefing up the American military presence in Southeast Asia, part of the expanding Pentagon strategy of "forward positioning," establishing sites, so-called "air cargo hubs," where American forces can stash equipment and enter and leave as desired.

During the Vietnam War, Utapao functioned from April 1967 as a major staging base for B-52s carrying out bombing raids over North Vietnam, and KC-35 stratotankers of the Strategic Air Command. Many American GIs served there <1>.

Despite Thailand's neutrality on the war in Iraq, Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra allowed Utapao to be used by American warplanes flying into combat in Iraq last year, and into Afghanistan earlier. There is also speculation that Utapao, with its infamous facilities for 'sophisticated interrogation' (a military heirloom from the Vietnam era), is probably where various al-Qaeda suspects have been secretly grilled.


continued at this link
http://dc.indymedia.org/feature/rate/111903

discuss here...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2886476


peace

[juliagoolia]

84. This is right. They are a LARGE self reliant capable nation.

They have the resources the other smaller nations who were even more devastated do not have. They also have a HUGE positive attitude spirit. All, and I do mean all of the Indian people I have known were always very positive in nature and self reliant.


Its a gift from them to other nations for them to do just that.

[MissBrooks]

2. Sounds like a Pride Issue to me...

I hope their people don't suffer because of this pride.

Everyone can use help during times like this.

[KlatooBNikto]

12. It really is a pride issue. It is also stupid when there are thousands

of people in need of help and many professionals from abroad are waiting to deliver that help to those people in dire need.

[SmokingJacket]

3. Probably the same reason I won't let my in-laws buy me a car.

You accept help now, and you pay for it later -- in other ways.

[Solly Mack]

5. Yup

People and governments think aid means buying a lifetime input to other people's affairs.

[Ladyhawk]

86. Yep, stopped taking anything from mom. n/t

[bo44]

55. I know what you mean very well

Won't take anything from my dad.

[idiosyncratic]

4. They probably have their own resources and what they don't accept

will go to the poorer countries who really, really need it.

[LeftCoast]

6. I'd heard India is actually sending help to the other countries involved

Military assistance as well as financial. My impression has been that India feels that other countries need the relief more than they do.

[outergeorge]

7. India is turning down releif because

Most of the damage was done to fishing villages. These people are considered low caste. The goverment of India is predominately high caste, and they do not want to have to help these people. Sad, but true.

[Solly Mack]

14. So you're saying they are like Bush?

[outergeorge]

19. I don't know

If Bush didn't want to send help because an area was poor everybody would hear about it. That's because of the many ways we can communicate here in the US. In India this communication doesn't exist and things like this can be kept quiet.

[Solly Mack]

21. But Bush treats Americans just like that

He gives tax cuts to the wealthy and screws over the rest.

Doesn't sound any different to me than what you described.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Walt Starr]

28. Oh really? When was the last time you were in India?

India is far more modern than you are making out here, and is quite capable of handling the Tsunami affected areas on its own which is why they have declined aid, just as America did during the hurricanes earlier this year.

[outergeorge]

36. Not recently

I just spent time this afternoon with someone who just came from India. They have lived there for the past three years and were in an area of India affected by the tsunami.

[Walt Starr]

39. Ahhhh, you were fed a line of bullshit

India is no longer a third world nation. It is technologically advanced and is quite capable of handling this disaster on its own, not to mention export aid to other nations affected by this same disaster including rushing emergency aid to Sri Lanka already!

[amazona]

43. I think Walt Starr is right

I don't think India is by any means third world.

The U.S. also refuses disaster aid. Cuba has offered before, and we have laughed it off.

[elehhhhna]

83. and NYC tore up that Saudi check on 9/12...

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Backlash Cometh]

72. Good point in that last paragraph.

[The Backlash Cometh]

85. Since the moderator thought to remove a poster which was not

any more disrespectful than the others who were opposed to his ideas, I'll post the paragraph which I commented on. What he said was, if India was so technologically advanced, why didn't it have the resources to prepare its own tsunami warning system?

[NV Whino]

51. Ah...

the old friend of a friend of a friend again eh?

[outergeorge]

52. too remote

It's a friend. Sorry to disappoint but it's firsthand info.

[leesa]

87. You sound as though you think India is still in the 19th century.

They are a modern nation in most ways and they have plenty of communication and probably more truth than we get from OUR communicators. Sheesh.

[KlatooBNikto]

16. You may have put the finger on the right button.When India is involved

caste cannot be too far off.

[fujiyama]

54. That's a really ignorant statement

THe caste system is prevelant in India's history, but the current government of India is not the BJP, the PM is a Sikh, and my guess is that some of the cabinet members/ministers are from "lower castes".

I'd say in this case, it's partly a matter of pride and they know that outside help usually is never with no strings attached.

India, while not necessarily as wealthy as Europe and the US, is modernizing at a rapid rate. It isn't quite as poor as say, Sri Lanka or some of the other smaller nations hit. There is no reason India shouldn't be able to handle this disaster by itself. India has the money. The main problem is greedy corrupt politicians and a huge entrenched bureaucracy. That's all that can stop aid from flowing to those that need it.

[KlatooBNikto]

60. In Indian society, if you are poor and are also from lower caste,

(sometimes these two attributes go together) your goose is cooked. Your value as a human being is zilch.

[burythehatchet]

61. oh please...enlighten yourself

The value of a human being?
The value of a human being?
Your perceptions on this topic reflect a fuzzy understanding of our "value" as human beings

[outergeorge]

62. Here is an inkling as to what they go through

http://www.dalits.org/newsclips.htm
This story is repeated all over India the Dalits, or low castes have no value and are considered valueless.

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Backlash Cometh]

73. Why didn't India embrace Ms. Gandi? Englighten me.

She was all about redistributing the wealth to help the poor.

[burythehatchet]

80. If you're talking about Sonia, her party won.

she is head of her party and she would have run had there been some sanity on the part of the nationalists. She stepped aside so that Singh could stand as the candidate.

but that's really beside the point

every culture goes through its own evolution, given its multitude of economic, geographic, and many other factors. Global communications brings all of those diverse paths of development and craches them into each other. When I see comments like those you make, I see ignorance towards understanding cultural phenomenon. I suspect that's a burden the anglo man bears.

But is your memory so short that you've forgotten that white boys were fucking and hanging their black slaves 40 years ago? Are you still not dropping 5000 pound MOABs on the heads of Iraqi children? And you say Indians don't "value" life.

oops I just realized that I didn't mean to respond to you for most of this post...its the dude above you...I think.

[The Backlash Cometh]

82. I judge people by the way they treat me and others like me.

Indians who have come across my path have failed the humanitarian test 100% of the time. In analyzing their actions, I had no trouble recognizing the same kind of behavior in the way wealthy elites in South America deal with the peasants in their own countries.

If they were called Republicans, instead of Indians, you wouldn't have any trouble with this.

Call me what you like. I have no more cheeks to turn. All four are bloodied due to a trusting personality.

[burythehatchet]

90. being a liberal means drawing your

map of reality in pencil

peace

[KlatooBNikto]

69. By value, I mean the dignity you expect in all human interactions.

In the end, in a tragedy like this tsunami the lower caste people are not even considered as a worthy life lost.

[burythehatchet]

81. what...ever

[CatWoman]

17. I really can't believe that

how do you know it's true?

Is this established policy?

[outergeorge]

23. I know it's true

I just spent time this afternoon with someone who just came from India. They have lived there for the past three years and were in an area of India affected by the tsunami.

[Solly Mack]

31. Odd...reports say India is taking care of it's own

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4251213


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4125845.stm


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/973924.cms


and not just it's own either.

[Walt Starr]

33. You need to talk to this person

because they fed you a line of bullshit.

[CatWoman]

41. Walt

I think that's OuterGeorge's InnerGeorge talking :D

[Walt Starr]

45. I was getting that drift

;)

[outergeorge]

46. maybe

some people have an inner child, I have an outer george :P

[Solly Mack]

47. Sorta like a sockpuppet?

[outergeorge]

48. No

More like jiminy cricket

[outergeorge]

42. Not likely

They were in Chennai at the time, which is as far north as the tsunami hit. I am in contact with India on a daily basis and this same thing happened during the typhoon in Orissa and the earthquake in Gujarat.

[KlatooBNikto]

70. One reason they do not want Western aid is it would become apparent

to us that even in death, the caste system assigns a lower value to the person from the lower castes.If this becomes apparent to the aid workers, word might get back to their homelands and damage the commercial prospects for India.

[Walt Starr]

18. Interesting first post

Very interesting indeed.

[Solly Mack]

25. Init though?

[The Backlash Cometh]

49. We got us a winner. Exactly. Indians are a people who have a history

with the caste system. I sincerely believe this is why people in America have different experiences with Indians in this country. Minorities find them hostile and condescending, while white Republican predators find them hard-working and amiable.

[oneighty]

65. As an ex-commercial fishermen

I would like to point out that the wealthy seafood loving people lined up to buy our catch.

Low caste indeed. Gee!

180

[CatWoman]

67. Ed!!!!!

still reading; quite a good book. Love your stories.

:loveya:

[oneighty]

68. Thank you CatWoman

I was thinking about your 'Hoppin John' Last night. Yummy!

Ed

[AllegroRondo]

8. I believe they are asking relief to go to other countries

that cannot care for themselves first.

[tk2kewl]

10. Maybe telling the world "We have arrived!"

We are not a third world nation. We are on par with Europe and the US.

[Walt Starr]

15. DING DING DING DING DING!!!!!!

India can afford to handle this themselves and takes pride in that fact.

With this disaster being handled internally, it will show the rest of the world that India should no longer be considered a third world nation.

[Walt Starr]

11. Same reason that the U.S. turned down foreign aid on the hurricanes

National pride in the fact that they can handle it themselves.

[nascarblue]

13. It's all just booga-booga to keep you in line!

News you won't find on CNN.

The Power of Nightmares assesses whether the threat from a hidden and organised terrorist network is an illusion. In the concluding part of the series, the programme explains how the illusion was created and who benefits from it.

This is a must watch documentary!


http://207.44.245.159/video1040.htm

[burythehatchet]

20. The reason is that India is looking for recognition

on the world stage as a playa. Its no secret that they are lobbying hard to get a permanent seat on the security council. With aspirations that high and an economy that just continues to steam ahead (India has the largest middle class in the world), the government would not accept relief aid. And rightfully so, the countries that really need it are the ones who should be helped.

[CatWoman]

24. see, I should have pm'd/asked you straight up

:hi:

[DinahMoeHum]

22. In the realm of medicines, I believe India already has manufacturing

facilities that can get the stuff to the afflicted areas faster than can be made and shipped overseas. They've also made strides in self-sufficiency over the years and have been battling multi-national corporate interests with regards to agriculture.

They also have had some bad experiences with foreign aid over the decades when they've suffered natural disasters. They are, after all, a former colony of a superpower.

:shrug:

[Walt Starr]

29. India left third world status behind years ago.

They are a technologically advanced nation and can quite adequately handle the repurcussions of this disaster internally.

[WoodrowFan]

26. pride? (NT)

[Walt Starr]

32. Yep, the US declined foreign assistance during the Florida Hurricanes this

year.

India is proving its status in the world.

[Jesus H. Christ]

30. strings

a lot of the aid sent in by the US is in the form of loans.

[WoodrowFan]

34. yeah but

why then turn down aid from countries that don't add strings??

[Jesus H. Christ]

38. Are they?

The article said their taking aid from the UN and international agencies like the Red Cross. I'll bet they're just not taking any loans.

[Bridget Burke]

44. Yes, they're accepting aid from the UN & NGO's

They're just wary of accepting aid from other governments. I can't blame them.

[Walt Starr]

35. India doesn't need the aid

and is currently helping Sri Lanka handle the disaster with aid!

[nascarblue]

40. No, there was an article about that the other day...

...Israel was sending some aid but India turned it down because it was a team of 150 for strictly military aid. They don't need military aid. So Israel is still sending 10,000 blankets and 50 aid workers. I wish I could find the link, but I can't.

[obnoxiousdrunk]

50. Heard that

India was giving $23 million in aid to SriLanka, which is 8 mil more than the Stingy's.

[opihimoimoi]

53. India has arrived...and they see America as a meddler....

like taking money from the Devil....

[CatWoman]

57. Hi, Dennis!!!

:hi:

:loveya:

[opihimoimoi]

78. Kung Hee fat Choy...... Happy and Properous new Year.

:bounce: :toast: :hug: :loveya:

[fujiyama]

56. It's really a matter of pride

and practically speaking, I would say there are other smaller nations like Sri Lanka that need the aid more.

While India may not be as wealthy as Western Europe and the US, it's not really that poor. India has the money to take care of itself. The main problems are corrupt greedy politicians and an entrenched beauracracy that could stop the flow of aid to those that need it.

[Must_B_Free]

58. because they don't want to owe political favors

its as simple as that.

[ZombieNixon]

64. May I put an end to some speculation?

As a person of Indian origin, whose grandparents live in Chennai, not five miles from where the tsunami hit, whose mother just returned from that very place not three weeks ago, I have a slight inkling of authority on the subject.

Everything I've seen in this thread has a shade of truth to it.

1. India is no longer completely a third world country. Part of it is, but in the same sense that Native American reservations are thrid world countries. In the villages, the people are still unimaginably destitute, but India has its own tech centers and movie studios; they have a good enough economy to handle this on their own.

2. Now that thay know they have the power, they're strutting their stuff: "Look at us, we're helping the others; we're now a regional power." Part of it is a pride issue.

3. Nothing's for free and they know it.

4. Caste isn't much of an issue. If it was, they wouldn't be cleaning up their own territory anyhow. Why? All that got hammered were the Andaman and Nicobar Islands and the slums outside of Chennai and down the coast of Tamil Nadu. My grandparents own a few blocks of flats in about five miles into the city. They can drive out to where all the destruction is easily enough; there are people cleaning up there. The government does not sanction the caste system. In rural areas, Dalits (untouchables) are treated like dirt, but not by the national government. Caste may have been an issue when the BJP was in power, but now that Congress in in control, religious issues have much less impact on public policy. Fer gawd's sakes, the PM's a Sikh and the DefMin's a Christian. It is a secular government.

Bottom line: India is flexing its wings to see if it can fly with the "big boys."

[Solly Mack]

66. Thank you!

[ConsAreLiars]

75. Quite right and well said. India is in no way as simple as

some of the "explainer's" guesses would imply.

It's also worth noting the the current gov't is, in part, an anti-fundie alliance which includes several parties whose base is build in part by their policies of opposition to caste-ism. The caste system still persists, but all regions include a mix of castes -- they are not segregated geographically.

[JI7]

74. i believe they do have the resources

the problem with the country is the unequal and unfair distribution of the resources and wealth created.

this is why the right wing government was voted out even though there were reports of very positive economic growth. it's true, the economy did grow but the wealth created mostly went to a few people or towards things that don't help the people. so the people ended up voting them out of power.

a good example is the resources they put towards their defense and especially their nuclear program rather than towards building up communities.

as someone else said the caste system is not a problem when it comes to the government. the government is the one that does the most in opposing the caste system and they have affirmative action programs to help those who have a history of being discriminated against. the caste system is mostly a problem of long time culture of the society. similar to america where we have laws in place to prevent discrimination but it still happens.

[two gun sid]

77. As the leader of Non-Aligned Nations

they always turn down offers of relief. In a few days time they will quietly allow some help.

[satori]

79. Because they know Bush will want to start more wars

The Indian people probably know Bush will plan to have some sort of war grow out of all if this. My guess is the Indian Secret service perhaps knows that for Bush and his groupies they see Hindu Indians and Muslim Indians as the same, and with all the misery they know the Republicans especially the Republican religious fanatics will attempt to incite violence (a war) that could reach India.

They know that boat loads of Republican charity religious fanatics will be going to the area close to their borders, and that when they go to Asia people in Asia will get even more upset.

Remember Vietnam? What is the number one thing the Vietnam people said? We do not want your idea of a democracy; all we want is the Americans to leave.

[GoldenOldie]

88. DR from Harvard Medical School who is a Public Health Service Physican.

He was interviewed on many subjects related to this natural disaster and experiences of previous ones throughout the world.

A caller questioned the Doctor specifically on India refusing personnel aide and he stated that India has the experience of handling numerous disasters and from this past experiences they were well prepared with their own educated personnel and plans. When dealing with so many serious problems and with such a diversified population and their languages and cultural differences, it creates havoc when peoples of other Nations who cannot speak the language, understand the culture or locale. The Locals or Nationals who should and would be working with the actual problems are dispersed to handle those foreigners flocking into the disaster sites, they use them to find housing, food, translate, etc.

The doctor also explained that disposal of the dead was not as critical a health problem as obtaining drinking water and cleaning up areas. He explained that germs do not generate from dead but that the fecal matter from live humans and animals is what can initiates a cholera epidemic and that within a few weeks any standing water and the mosquitoes that will breed can create serious malaria problems.

I am sure they will replay this interview and recommend it.

This interview changed much of my thinking on what is and what should be done in a Natural disater.

[jmatthan]

89. I posted this in another thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1461372&mesg_id=1461428

"Method used to determine tsunamis is useful for the US Government to locate any form of submarine activity in the region.

The sensors are placed along the bottom of the ocean and then there are corresponding sensors on the surface. These are interlinked and these then send the data to satellite links - which is also how the tracing of submarine activity is determined.

The original sensors were devleoped in Penn State University materials Technology Dept., and based on the piezoelectric phenomena. The Marconi company in England also developed highly secret systems in this crucial technology. Similarly the Soviets had their own technology.

I have, however, not kept abreast of recent developments in this highly classified area of research.

When I wanted to arrange for some of my Finnish University colleagues to visit the naval research groups in the late eighties to compare results from our studies, they US scientists were barred from discussing this subject!!

The placement of these sensors in the Bay of Bengal will comtpromise Indian Naval Security. This is something that the US has been trying to do for years and years - ever since India bought the nuclear powered submarines from Russia!!"

Jacob Matthan
Oulu, Finland