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What would the troops have to do to lose your loyalty ?

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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 10:21 AM
Original message
What would the troops have to do to lose your loyalty ?
Everybody supports the troops, right? But to what extent do we support the troops? What if they maliciously kill women and children? What if they torture innocents unmercifully? Is that all right because they are in a war and they are fighting for our country? Does there come a time when the "troops" do not warrant support from the people or is it automatic? No matter what, we should always support the troops? Whatever they do is excusable. Any comments?
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Florida_Geek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
1. Per Bush 70% voted for Him
that did it for me.

Bring them HOME NOW...
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I heard 55% went for Bush
...that did it for me. Bring them home, now.
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RoeBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
3. Troops is a collective noun...
...hopefully everyone here supports our troops and wants them to safely return home. But there are individual troopers that have lost my support like the ones that have tortured and humiliated prisoners.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Yes, that's the point that needs to be made.
Even with widespread abuses, there will never be a way that 100% of the troops are complicit. The individal troopers, and any commanders that ordered, acknowledged, or allowed war crimes, must be held responsible.
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antigone382 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. Precisely
Edited on Wed Dec-22-04 10:31 AM by antigone382
You can't make a blanket statement about "the troops." To officially turn your back on an entire group of people for the crimes of a few, or even the crimes of a majority, is wrong. To those saying that they no longer support our troops due to voting statistics, what do you say to that 30%, or 45% as the case may be? And remember, they're getting a lot more propaganda than we are. If the government can keep half the country fooled, despite having access to the truth, how much more effort will they put into fueling the troops who have to fight their bloody wars, who don't necessarily have access via the Internet to the information we do?

If individuals commit horrendous war crimes, they deserve to be held accountable. However, in the end, like in the Abu Ghraib cases, it seems like the troops already get the brunt of the punishment for crimes which, though perhaps committed by them, were suggested, encouraged, or ordered by those higher in command. It is the upper levels of the military and this administration that deserve our disgust for crimes committed, not the soldiers.

Edited for spelling.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
4. I don't support war crimes
I don't support indiscriminate killing or needless brutality

Sometimes our troops cross the line of professional military behavior. When they do, they deserve to be held accountable -- AS DO THEIR LEADERS.

Otherwise, I strongly support the members of our military. I wish none of them were in Iraq.
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DireStrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
6. I am losing faith for the generality of our troops there
After hearing about the atrocities in Fallujah, I find it hard to care what happens to some of our "people" in uniform. I know the majority are just following orders, or are doing nothing wrong, but...

I don't know what it would take to fully make me stop supporting the troops.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
7. Torturers should not be supported
nor troops that desicrate holy shrines for no reason. Rapists and murderers should not be supported either. Seeing as there are many sad tales of returning US soldiers committing suicide, it seems to me that they have been forced to do things that they literally cannot live with. This is so sad because this all was preventable.

That being said, the yellow ribbon on my car was bought from the local Guard unit's relatives so that they could purchase body armor. It cost a lot more than $1.98. I'm incensed that people can show 'patriotism' by buying the things at gas stations and not have any of the funds go to help people. Personally, I think that all money from the sale of these things should go to literally support the troops, not line the pockets of some businessman.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
8. I don't support all the troops
I want those who commit war crimes to go down and go down hard.

I also want the administration that supports and encourages torture & other war crimes to go down and go down hard.

I have no concern for those who become war criminals. None.



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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
10. I will support the troops
Edited on Wed Dec-22-04 11:06 AM by dmordue
Many of them are practically kids and come from low income familiies who are trying to get ahead. Many of them are reservists. Most of them are doing the best that they can. Some Americans are crooks, some commit murder - I don't condemn all Americans because of the actions of a few. I sure won't condemn people who are getting killed because they have been sent to Iraq - not until I've walked in their footsteps and I sure don't plan to volunteer. Individuals have to be held acountable but don't condemn them all because the actions of the few.

If you want to place additional blame look at the cowards who are profitting from the war but won't fight.
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wicket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #10
21. Amen
n/t
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4_TN_TITANS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
11. The Troops in general...
deserve our undivided support, but I agree that there are individuals capable of war crimes.

CNN had a good story last night about all the foreign made magnet-ribbons that people are putting on their cars. Seems they aren't really supporting the troops OR their country. If I find some that are made in the USA, then I'll buy one.
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indigobusiness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
12. I can abhor the deeds of men, while not the men themselves...
and I try to maintain that position with all men.

That said, I am absolutely against war. It is a barbaric, arcane practice. The military is completely unnecessary. When we budget the same monies earmarked for war, to promoting peace instead, war and the military will soon be obsolete.
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. Good answer
Nuanced, insightful and fair. Needless to say, it will be caricatured and lambasted in some corners of the internets, and you will be subject to being called "traitor" "coward" and a host of other inappropriate and inapplicable epithets.
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indigobusiness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. That was
gratuitous.
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. I gotta be me-e-e-e-e-e!
I've got to. Be. Me-e-e-e-e!

Okay, I'll stop singing now.
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qazplm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. thats a rather simplistic viewpoint though isnt it?
because it would basically require all of humanity to think that way at the same time, wouldnt it?

Wouldnt be enough for even half, or two thirds to think that way...because the remaining third would just take over.

The military is quite necessary now isnt it? And i dont think its arcane. It MAY be barbaric, it may even be immoral that it IS necessary, but unless you are advocating that even self defense is not a moral act, then since there are still countries and people who are aggressive, isnt a military, and war, still at least at some level not only necessary but moral? (self defense).

Obviously, i am not speaking of the CURRENT war as self defense at all, speaking in more general nonspecific terms.
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indigobusiness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. America had an opportunity to lead the world
Edited on Wed Dec-22-04 10:59 AM by indigobusiness
to a higher level. It squandered it. I don't think it is simplistic at all, given the resources pissed down the drain from failed policies. All it takes is forward vision, rather than lurching into the future with eyes on the past.

Eisenhower warned us about warmongering. The 60s codified a modern message of peace We had a modicum of goodwill in place around the world, which could easily have been extrapolated with a sincere and earnest push for peace and humanitarianism. Greed and fear and cynicism brought us to our mangled present day. Not the inviability of world peace.
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indigobusiness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #16
23. Arcane is apt in my eyes. Look at how hard it was to reveal Abu Ghraib?
Not to mention the deepest depths of the Pentagon. Who knows what goes on there? Or how the money is REALLY spent? Not to mention Black Budget programs...that's a whole world all by itself.
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Union Thug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
13. Tough question...
Edited on Wed Dec-22-04 10:37 AM by Union Thug
I "support the troops" in that, as composed mainly of working class kids, they (whether they know it or not) share the same class interests as I do. In this sense, I support them because many have made the choice to join the military based on economic circumstances.

On the other hand, as a child of a blue collar family, and one who opted NOT to join the military despite the pressure to do so, I also realize that everything we do is a personal choice based on our values. I chose not to join the military because I believed (and still believe) that the military is used by and large as the ultimate strong arm of the elite. Military action has little to do with freedom and democracy, and everything to do with securing the positions of the rich. I will not be a tool for these people and I will not kill other poor people simply because they live in a foreign land. When a solidier becomes aware of the situation and continues to support the war that he/she has been dropped into, I drop my support immediately.

I guess what it comes down to is a matter of awareness and conciousness. We need to do more to clear the fog so that soldiers are better informed and less susceptible to the authoritarian brainwashing of military life. If a given set of troops is aware of atrocities to which they are themselves contributing and remain committed to task, then I choose not to support them at all. They are willfull players.
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Doctor_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
14. IMO, they are in an untenable position
I thank God that I never had to go to war, but I believe that being in that situation would make it hard to maintain your humanity. Or at least easy to become reactionary, defensive, and cruel.

So I guess I support *ALMOST* everything they do in a war hell-hole like Iraq is becoming. Bring them home.
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
18. They're a bunch of individuals.
And it's important to remember to think of them that way.

Just because SOME soldiers are malicious, I'm not going to malign the whole group.

And just because SOME soldiers are decent people, I'm not going to assume the whole military is and give them my unreserved love and best wishes.

By the way... what exactly does SUPPORT mean? I wish they'd come back alive, yes. I'm not going to spit on them, and I believe they should all be paid well and given generous veterans' benefits.

That said, I think they should all refuse to fight and come home, and the fact that they don't upsets me. I don't believe in their mission. I don't support their actions, but I do support them as human beings.
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Coventina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
22. In my eyes the collective "troops" have become tainted
Edited on Wed Dec-22-04 11:05 AM by Coventina
As I have posted in other threads, I do not doubt that there are outstanding people of honor and valor in our armed services. Sadly, they are now tainted by their dishonorable brethren in arms.

I don't know who the "good" troops are and who the "bad" troops are. All I know is that this is an illegal, unjust war of aggression. Every day, our soldiers are committing war crimes. Some more outragous than others, BUT ALL OF THEM ARE COMMITTING CRIMES (the ones stationed in Iraq). Now, I realize that they are under oath to follow their orders. Therefore, I do not think that they are all deserving of trial and punishment. After all, we did not place every German soldier on trial for WW2.

I do not "support our troops" at this time. All I can say is that I want them to come home and get the mental and physical health care that they are going to need.

I do NOT wish them to come to harm. I do not hate them. I just feel sad that I have lost respect for them.

on edit: clarity
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jarab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
24. I may be wrong on this ...
and it certainly wouldn't be a first.

The troops I have trouble with are those placed in a position of policeman/guard - certainly not those who perceive their role as fighters.
It does appear that lots of the "abuse" reported has come from those playing MP - in many cases out of their mos. I rather suspect that many of them - if they are following suit with their civilian counterparts - are a little (lot) badge heavy.


Comparisons might be made with your high school buddies who became small-time deputies or city patrol cops. Playing cop does go to their heads. Some I know have had to relocate after their patronage job went caput in an ensuing election .... because they belatedly came to realize that they had made enemies due to their overbearing conduct. They in the majority seemed to have been good joes before their little stint in law enforcement.
I can relate similarly to Lynddie's big problem (crime?). What was her expertise? I would suspect without proof that many playing MP due to the hardship of numbers are ill-trained, such as she and her cohorts appear to have been. That is one area in which the military might reconsider some major changes.

It is true that I have no sympathy for temporary cops - and small town cops are generally that.
The UCMJ is not the greatest thing ever conceived, but we're stuck with it.
Other than this peeve with play cops, I support the troops in almost all cases. When I see the exception .... I know it.

...O...

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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
25. Not a single one of them will return the same person
They have witnessed things that we can not even imagine and will be effected by this war their entire lives. I will never trust a soldier from Iraq war for fear of instability created by PTSD. We thought Vietnam was bad. The consequences of this brutality we call a war will be quite wrenching for America. I do not support their actions in Iraq at all. Not even a tiny bit. Most love what they are doing and I will never support that.
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okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
26. vote for bush.
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info being Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
27. Are any of us truly exempt from propping up this system?
Its hard for me to judge the troops too harshly when my tax money is funding their deeds and my going to work every day continues the cycle.
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