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Someone explain to me how NAFTA is going to create jobs HERE??

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Postman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 09:23 AM
Original message
Someone explain to me how NAFTA is going to create jobs HERE??
Kucinich is the only TRUE liberal running. He would repeal NAFTA.

Why in Gods name would you create legislation that would allow your job base to leave the country without penalty? Would it be because you are beholden to the large manufacturers?

Why would you pay someone HERE a living wage, benefits, be under penalty for not following gov't regulations (labor, EPA)when you can fund a politicans electoral campaign, get them to pass laws allowing you to move offshore and not have to worry about wages, unions, labor laws, environmental laws etc. etc.

The prices of these products are not reflected in their un-patriotic, un-American move out of the country...

Lieberman can go to hell, why doesn't he just come clean and become a republican??
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 09:27 AM
Response to Original message
1. I can't. I don't know why. Yes. I don't know. He's not already?
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Japhy_Ryder Donating Member (381 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 09:33 AM
Response to Original message
2. The goal of free trade
The goal of free trade rests in economies of scale. Basically, it dictates that in future free trade areas, certain locations will be able to produce specialized products much more efficiently than others. So much so, that other locales can specialize in other things. The theory being that a country can specialize in something, sell it easily to the rest of the world, have well paid workers that can buy relatively inexpensive goods imported without tariffs, and everyone is better off.

The theory is sound. If indeed there were such a thing as free trade, it would work. Part of the problem is protectionism, and that is part of why jobs leave. Another is that there is no worker protections. In order for free trade to work right (i.e., provide a higher standard of living and increased access to consumer goods) workers must have good wages. As it has happened, companies have taken advantage of cheap labor and exploited it resulting in loss of higher paying jobs and the protectionism has not allowed nations to take advantage of their economies of scale, because some imports remain too expensive.

Not to mention that countries engaging in a lot of trade are highly unlikely to go to war against one another. If free trade is done correctly, everyone wins. It's being done poorly right now. Given enough time and some enlightened people not looking to increase profits to companies but really trying to benefit people take over, you'll see how amazing a change free trade can have across the world.
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Gin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. The "Ideal" situation you discuss is a long way down the road.
Between here and there, we will suffer, and so will our standard of living.

Clinton saw and liked the big picture of this trade agreement, the little picure is going to be painfull to the middle class.
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Japhy_Ryder Donating Member (381 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Perhaps it is
And I'm not necessarily defending free trade. But if there were some rules and regulations, that COMPLETELY eliminated trade barriers, AND established wage/worker protection rules, we'd be much closer to that goal.

Also, it would help if the world monitoring body wasn't beholden to corporations and didn't conduct all its affairs in complete secrecy.
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Postman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #6
13. The problem is ANYTHING could be construed as a barrier to free trade.
worker protections, environmental laws etc etc. The system is set up to eliminate all those things you mentioned for it to "work".

If a law were passed giving workers a living wage, that is grounds for the WTO to overturn that law on the reason that it is in "restraint of trade"

So it is a system set up by corporations FOR corporations to conduct class warfare on workers wherever they may be, to keep wages and benefits at a minimum, profits at a maximum, and act as a check against ANY social upward mobility of a society.
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Japhy_Ryder Donating Member (381 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. obviously
I'm not just talking about us here. For it to work, there has to be international agreement. The WTO must be either revamped or something different (not controlled by corporations) must be put in its place. The U.S. can't go this alone. There would have to be international agreements on wages, done in such a way that no one country has a distinct advantage over any other. That IBM stands to gain no benefit by moving jobs from the U.S. to India, or vice versa.
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Postman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. It will NEVER work...
How about GREED? You or they try to make it sound as if this is some sort of utopian experiment. I say NAFTA is nothing more than "class warfare" against a living wage and decent working conditions. It is an attempt to turn the US into the third world.

To say otherwise is to deny practically all of American history and the economic system known as capitalism.

During the Industrial Revolution it was necessary for the workers to emigrate to where the jobs were. Where was that? Here, to America. Isn't that why we are land of immigrants?

Once the workers began to see how this wasn't quite the "land of milk and honey" they organized and formed unions to create better working conditions and better wages and benefits.

Now we have NAFTA and an ability for a company, because of high technology, to leave the country and go where the wokers are, payoff some politicians, set-up shop regulation free, pay pennies on the dollar in wages, and sell the product at the same or slightly reduced rates to hoodwink people into thinking this is great.

Only its not so great when your job has left the country, you can't pay the mortgage and the only jobs available to you are non-union, subsistence wage jobs such as Wal-Mart, McDonalds etc. etc.

So the answer is to go back to college and get a degree in a techincal field. Only don't look now,those are being farmed out to India and countries like that.

It's Class Warfare. Nothing else.
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Japhy_Ryder Donating Member (381 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. Economic failures
It's not a tool of class warfare. Greed is playing a part in it right now, because we've established no regulations to keep wages fair. Any company will move if it can take wages from $10 an hour to $10 a week. This is where government (i.e., the people) must step in. Either get the workers unionized or pass worker protections.

You're right about Wal-Mart. They have done more damage to the American worker than any trade pact. They've quashed anything sounding remotely like unionization, and other companies have had to follow suit. Wal-Mart is the most effective union buster in this country's history. It's "The Jungle" all over again.

Free trade isn't utopian. Yes, jobs will leave, but new ones can be created. Even technical jobs. New innovations occur. I'm sorry but the future of America does not lie in manufacturing. I'd like to see those jobs stay here too, but free trade or not, those jobs are going to leave the U.S. unless workers in the rest of the world get better pay and/or refuse to take the low paying jobs.
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Postman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. I'm sorry but your wrong on this one. It IS class warfare.
class struggle is the story of this country. The haves against the have-nots, rich versus poor. You can beleive its not class warfare but where do you think WAL-MART gets its products from? The textile manufacturers of New England? Sorry, they've moved to Honduras, El Salvador and the like. Why do you think Reagan secretly funded the "Contras"? Its all connected. Or are you going to tell me economics has nothing to do with foreign policy?
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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #2
11. the goal of free trade is to lower wages
You can dress it up with dime-store economics all you want, but that has always been the goal. "Labor flexibility". Comparative advantage has little to do with NAFTA and the other free trade agreements, aside from a pretext. Comparative advantage describes situations like better agriculture in one area over another, but skilled workers working at a factory are dependent on the workers and the infrastructure - which can be built anywhere, and no nation has a comparative advantage over another. EXCEPT that some countries pay people less money, and as in Colombia, will murder them if they organize a union. That's always what it's been about.

It surprises me how many so called Democrats drink the kool-aid on this one.

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Japhy_Ryder Donating Member (381 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. The goal of protectionism is?
It surprises me how often in the GD forum people's valid opinions get attacked, their liberal chops get questioned, and to disagree means you're a moron. I've come to these conclusions by writing my master's thesis from Johns Hopkins on it, thanks.

So what's the goal of the opposite? Protectionism? We can put up all these barriers, and yes jobs MIGHT be salvaged, but then what? The blue collar workers here have jobs, but with high barriers to trade, imports (and exports) drop precipitously, and all of the sudden these people are priced out of everything. Prices for everything explode. T-shirts for 50 bucks. Cheapest cars for 40,000. Is it a better America when nothing is affordable even to those that have jobs?
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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. who is calling for protectionism?
Did I say raise tarrifs on anything? Pardon me Mr John Hopkins Masters Degree, but you're making up a strawman.

There is no need for yet another international bureaucracy like the WTO. We already negotiate trade deals with other countries, and there is no reason we have to have a one size fits all agreement that treats our close allies like Canada the same as slave labor states and dictatorships like Communist China.

Let's not forget those "barriers" you are talking about means the right to organize a union, environmental protections, and worker safety. If the goal of NAFTA and GATT wasn't to lower wages, why didn't they put those in the agreements?

No one is talking about paying $50 for t-shirts, except for you.
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Japhy_Ryder Donating Member (381 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. How will jobs stay in the U.S. if tariffs aren't raised?
Even with barriers in place it's still cheaper for companies to move jobs out of the U.S.

You also assume that I'm defending NAFTA and GATT as the perfect illustrations of the free trade argument. I'm not. NAFTA GATT and the WTO aren't free trade organizations. If agreements about unionization, environmental protection and worker safety are international agreements, then none of those things are trade barriers. If everyone is using the same rules, then free trade works. Governments have to look at the big picture and not give in to corporations. Yes, I think they are highly unlikely to do so, but that's what needs to happen.

So if barriers aren't the answer, and free trade isn't the answer, what is?
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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #22
27. why exactly do US corporations have the ability to export jobs?
Unless we allow them too? Exporting jobs to cheap labor totalitarian states isn't some kind of natural force, it's a legal and economic action taken by people. We don't have to allow it if we don't want to.

"If everyone is using the same rules, then free trade works."

Sounds good to me. Let's start with an International Living Wage agreement, and I guess you would support an equal wage for everyone? Great.
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Japhy_Ryder Donating Member (381 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. They will go out of business otherwise
Edited on Fri Sep-05-03 10:47 AM by Japhy_Ryder
If U.S. corporations don't export jobs, then they will lose market share to foreign companies with much cheaper products. Again, the only way to then protect the American corporation (and the American worker) is to increase the price of the imported good, by tariffs.

Yep. I do agree with an International Living Wage agreement. If wages are high enough to be taken out of the equation, free trade suddenly looks a whole lot more appealing both for workers and consumers. I was responding to the original question, but more on free trade itself and not NAFTA. NAFTA is flawed, but it's a groundwork.
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Postman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #14
21. WHAT?
Your argument is an argument against people making their lives better.

So a "limited" market for workers, that is, a market where employers have to use the workforce they are restricted to, will lead to an unaffordable standard of living for all.

Could you use that same line of reasoning and apply it to lets say Public Schools? The tax-payer funds public schools. Should we write it into law that teachers cannot have a union? Ater all, they will demand more and more which will drive people out of the district.
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Japhy_Ryder Donating Member (381 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. Where did I say workers shouldn't unionize?
In fact throughout here, I've been using that as one of the fixes to the current problem. What I'm saying is that international workers need to unionize. That evens the playing field.

A limited market for workers won't lead to an unaffordable standard of living for all. Just those at the bottom. Same as we have now. I'm simply saying that doesn't fix the problem. It just perpetuates it.
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
5. It just depends on what the meaning of HERE is!
If you mean Here in China it's true! If you mean Here in the US it's a baldfaced lie! When the repubs say it creates jobs here ask them where is here sometime!
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Postman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. it's not just the republicans!!!....
Lieberman, Kerry, Gephart, Edwards, Dean....

Kucinich says repeal NAFTA. God Bless him
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #8
19. I hear ya dude!
We have people in both parties who are selling us out to the New World Order Globalistic Cashmongers! Too much campaigning money being funneled into the greedy mix to get real patriots elected to high office in America! We have too many Rockefeller Democrats who see eyeball to eyeball with the Rockefeller Republicans! WTO must go! The way to do it is to tax the HELL out of imports! Nobody in Washington has the balls to do that! The consumers are spoiled by the 30 years of discount goodies too!
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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #8
23. Gephardt led the fight against NAFTA
Let's give credit where credit is due. Gephardt has always fought the corporate traders.
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
7. NAFTA will so create jobs in the U.S.
Someone will make a tidy sum repossessing cars, serving legal papers, bounty hunting for desperate people who break the law when they can no longer support themselves, and of course, prison guards, which will be this decade's version of high tech jobs.

So you see? The scumbag sector of the economy will be the rising tide to lift all the yachts in the marina!
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. I can see it now, Joe Repub would kill for a job as a prison .........
guard!
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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
12. Well, it won't so long as we keep business restricted
So the solution is to ease these pesky labor and environmental regulations that hamper American business's ability to compete with the rest of the world.

It's called the "race to the bottom", and it's what the Republicans have been having wet dreams about for years. What infuriates me is how many Democrats have jumped on board with it!
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Tandalayo_Scheisskopf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
15. Simple:
The Magic NAFTA Job Fairy will flit down, and using her magic wand, make jobs for everyone.

Please note: The Magic NAFTA Job Fairy is, in fact, a 300lb Truck Driving Drag Queen named "Earl". Vicious temper, too.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
20. If We Put Tarrifs On Other Nation's Goods
Edited on Fri Sep-05-03 10:18 AM by DemocratSinceBirth
what will prevent them from putting tarrifs on our goods?

And then we will alll be worse off...
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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
24. What is goal of NAFTA and Free Trade (as currently structured)?
I believe it is mainly to further big business's power and control over labour and government and to make it harder for governments to respond to the needs and best interests of their constituents. The goverments will be forced to respond to the best interests of multi-national coporations instead.

Here's a couple links to some Globalization aritcles on Greg Palast's web site

One set of documents, minutes of the private meetings of the Liberalization of Trade in Services (LOTIS) committee, obtained by BBC television's Newsnight program and CorpWatch, record 14 secret meetings, from April 1999 and February 2001, between Britain's chief services trade negotiators, the Bank of England and the movers and shakers of the Euro-American business world. Those attending the closed LOTIS include Peter Sutherland, International Chairman of US-based investment bank Goldman Sachs and formerly the Director General of the World Trade Organization.

<snip>

Barry Coates, director of the WTO watchdog organization the World Development Movement, said he was surprised to learn that the LOTIS industry members received documents which the British government had refused to give his organization, even papers "which they told us did not exist."

<snip>

The necessity test requires nations to prove that their regulations -- from pollution control to child labor laws -- are not hidden impediments to trade. Industry wants the WTO to employ a necessity test similar to the one in the North America Free Trade Agreement which has worked to reverse local environmental rules. For example, Mexico has been forced to pay $17 million to an American corporation, Metalclad, for delaying the operation of the company's toxic waste dump and processing plant. Local Mexican officials had attempted to block the plant's operation on the grounds that it was built without a construction permit, and would not have received one, as the plant handling toxins was placed above the area's drinking water supply.

According to the secret March 19 memo from the Working Party on Domestic Regulation, issued to WTO members by the organization's Secretariat, European negotiators reached a private consensus to change the worldwide GATS agreement to include a much stronger form of the necessity test than found even in NAFTA. The Agreement between the US, Canada and Mexico only requires that a nation's regulations be "least trade restrictive."


The WTO's hidden agenda

Joseph Stiglitz was once the cheif economist for the World Bank. He was fired in 1999 after voicing dissent at the bank's globalization policies.

Stiglitz helped translate one from bureaucratise, a "Country Assistance Strategy." There’s an Assistance Strategy for every poorer nation, designed, says the World Bank, after careful in-country investigation. But according to insider Stiglitz, the Bank’s staff ‘investigation’ consists of close inspection of a nation’s 5-star hotels. It concludes with the Bank staff meeting some begging, busted finance minister who is handed a ‘restructuring agreement’ pre-drafted for his ‘voluntary’ signature (I have a selection of these).

Each nation’s economy is individually analyzed, then, says Stiglitz, the Bank hands every minister the same exact four-step program.

Step One is Privatization - which Stiglitz said could more accurately be called, ‘Briberization.’ Rather than object to the sell-offs of state industries, he said national leaders - using the World Bank’s demands to silence local critics - happily flogged their electricity and water companies. "You could see their eyes widen" at the prospect of 10% commissions paid to Swiss bank accounts for simply shaving a few billion off the sale price of national assets.

And the US government knew it, charges Stiglitz, at least in the case of the biggest ‘briberization’ of all, the 1995 Russian sell-off. "The US Treasury view was this was great as we wanted Yeltsin re-elected. We don’t care if it’s a corrupt election. We want the money to go to Yeltzin" via kick-backs for his campaign.


The Globalizer who came in from the cold

Finally here's a snip from a speech by the activist Granny D. I started a thread on DU already with this, but her thoughts are relevant in this context, so I'll repost here.

On July 24, three armed gunmen broke into the home where my young friend was staying in Guatemala, dragging her and another young woman to the ground, covering their heads with blankets. These young women began to count their lives in seconds. For three-quarters of an hour, the gunmen went through the biodiversity files in the home. Big business interests in Guatemala, in league with elements of the military, are trying to push through the passage of free trade agreements and to do it they must supress all dissent. Their partner and blood brother is the U.S. government. Not the U.S. government that we see, but the U.S. government that much of the rest of the world sees: a world of CIA treachery, the training of death squad leaders in our own Army facilities within the U.S., and a big business-friendly White House that winks and nods as great injustices continue.


The two women survived, but tens of thousands have not, because they are in the way of big business. It is not an honest difference of opinion; it is a global struggle of people versus a global crime syndicate that counts taken-over governments and multinational corporations among its members.


There is a term now in common use in Latin America that is confusing to us Americans. It is called neoliberalism and it is a very dirty word indeed among the brave pro-democracy and fair trade groups throughout the Americas. "Neoliberal" sounds like the happy return of the Kennedys, but it is not. Nor is it about some resurgence of the liberal values of the Square Deal or the New Deal or the War on Poverty or any of those great moments when we called upon our best instincts to cooperatively address our largest needs as a free and self-governing people. The liberation that we meant then when we used the word "liberal" was the liberation from poverty, despair and ignorance, the liberation of the mind through public education, the liberation of the citizen through universal voting, equal rights and equal opportunity, and the freedom to prosper from the fruits of our labors. But that is not the liberal that is meant by neoliberal. It means newly free to rampage. It means free of government constraint. It means free trade over fair trade.


"Neoliberalism" refers to the liberation of a giant beast that we, the ordinary people of America – the farmers, the townsmen and townswomen, the trade unionists – tied down to the earth early in the 20th century and it is that beast that has now gotten himself loose again to do great damage to us all. The deadly meanderings of this beast are most apparent in the most labor-intensive regions of the world, but the beast is here, too, and he has brought misery and suffering into your life and mine, stealing our water, blowing up our mountains, fouling our air and seas, and stealing our lives and our future at every turn. Neoliberalism is the colonialism department of neoconservatism.


http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16643
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wuushew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
26. Would people please remember that half of NAFTA is Canada!
Which is the partner no one has a problem with. Notice that Bush and his buddies raised tarrifs on Canadian lumber products which is not a good thing.

Lets talk stupid Democratic protectionists stances. With all respect to Senator Landrieu, sugar tarriffs are bunk. The cost of keeping x number of sugar farmers in business is far outweighed by the additonal cost to consummers in a myraid of higher food prices. I say buy out the farmers and start trading with Cuba. A win win scenario.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. I Oppose Tarrifs
They are sales taxes in drag and as a sales tax they are the most regressive form of taxation because poor folks spend most of their income...

And *'s hypocrisy on free trade is another reason to despise him...




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NoKingGeorge Donating Member (442 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
30. I understood it this way
A muffler manufacturer in Mass. wanted to sell his product through out Mexico and South America. Mexico puts a 10 dollar tariff on every muffler on his trailers. However if you own a business in Mexico you can sell your products without tariffs in Country. So if he relocates his business to Mexico he had access to American market and access to the largest growing market for his product. What would you do ? Stay in Mass and not grow or move the business and add markets?

btw: this was told to me as a true incident.
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