No matter what you believe, we need the religious left.

[Ladyhawk]

Personally, I'm an atheist. I don't believe in any religion.

But I think we need the religious left to reach out to the religious right. They certainly haven't listened to me and I don't expect them to anymore.

[janx]

1. What's the religious left?

Just curious...

[demosincebirth]

3. Moderate and liberal Christians and Jews

[Perky]

44. People like me: An evangelical Lefty

[Left Is Write]

5. People like me.

I am a liberal Christian. I believe in openness, tolerance and acceptance. I believe Jesus was a liberal - very much so. I view the Bible with an interpretive stance, keeping in mind that, though it may have been divinely inspired, it was written by humans (and also keeping in mind the historical context, the time in which the books were written). (Rightwing Christians usually approach the Bible with a literalist view, that it is the inerrant Word of God.) I believe that faith is a journey of discovery, not a static list of rules.

There are many moderates and liberals within the Christian church. Not all of us are fundamentalist conservatives.

[Festivito]

7. Well said. The atheists need to move over a little.

And it will anger them greatly. I know what I would like to say is very upsetting to atheists, but, ... the forced practice of no-god in government has not built a wall of separation between church and state. Instead a backlash of religion into politics washed into our last election. And, I say it is partly because atheism has become a religion vying for supremacy by law under our constitution that explicitly attempts to stop it from becoming supreme under our laws. And, whether you can see atheism as a religion or not is irrelevant. It looks like one to people who see it as competition.

Open Christian love can and will outlast and destroy the arrogance that is much too prevalent in today's Christianity.

[fujiyama]

12. Why should Atheists move over?

and I don't know any atheist that's in favor of forcing a "No God practice", whatever the hell that means. Congress still has prayers, the money still prints "In God we trust" and it seems like a large part of the nation is in favor of stuffing stuff like creationism down children's throats in public schools.

Now, I agree that Atheists need to know when to pick their battles. Certain things like using the word God in the plegde really doesn't matter to me, same with nativity scenes in front of some buildings...

But when it comes to something like creationism in a science class, I will NOT budge.

Unfortunately, even if we give them an inch, they'll ask for a mile. It won't stop.

I too think the religious left is important. Many great social movements (like abolition and civil rights) were in part accomplished because of religious thinkers...but it's a matter of people realizing it for themselves. As long as a large part of the country is more obsessed about gay marriage and abortion, other things like fighting poverty and oppression will matter little to them.

I do hope the religious left can talk to those on the right, but call me cynical. I don't think they'll have even the slightest bit of luck. Those on the right think Jesus supports a war mongerer. Even as a non believer, I doubt Jesus advocated such actions.

[Left Is Write]

21. I also doub Jesus would have advocated such actions.

He is, after all, known as the Prince Of Peace.

[Festivito]

23. Because the separation fight is the cart before the horse.

..and it leads to a backlash. The separation should be the result of our freedoms to believe and practice. To believe and practice are the law and should be the focus ahead of separation.

The "no-god practice" means trying to separate god from government. This is not Constitutional. Disallowing others to practice or speak about their religious beliefs in government should not be stopped because of separation of church and state, if it should be stopped, it should be stopped because someone is stopping someone else from practicing their religion.

Rudeness is not illegal. (But, we do have the right to call it rude.) Even in front of children.

And if we cannot as a nation put our ducks in a row, education-wise, and display a coherent history of our world, then, sadly, we are not a nation that can put our ducks all in a row, even in front of our own children.

There are many right-wingers who we will not win. There are many more Christians that we can win. But, we will lose them if they see the fight as themselves against a zealous atheism.

[tx_dem41]

19. "See it as competition"....very telling statement

Competition for what? Souls or money?

[Festivito]

24. Rights to practice and believe, and, yes, souls, and money.

When people believe in something, they become as fragile as a man's ego. (BTW, I'm a man, so I have first-hand knowledge of fragile ego.) Impinging on people's right to practice religion will bring competitive spirit. Enough to topple kings and other governments.

[tx_dem41]

25. How are PEOPLE'S right to practice religion currently....

being impinged upon?

[Festivito]

30. How 'bout.

Can't pray using a school microphone. A coach can be in trouble for leading prayer with his/her team.

As with free speech there is no right to silence, and no right to enforce silence. Rudeness is protected, even Christian rudeness. Add, we do have the right to call it rude.

I don't know why you capitalized the word people.

[tx_dem41]

31. I capitalized to emphasize the distinction between...

the people and the Government. That coach is a person except when he is acting in the role of the school. At that point, he (or she) is the Government. And the Government shall not establish a religion (1st amendment...but you knew that).

As for the school microphone, I might be more amenable to a person's (read: student) access to the microphone or intercom if equal access to all religions was guaranteed by that school. The minute that equal access to ALL religions was denied, the access goes away.

[Festivito]

41. There is a trend toward more control over religion.

..and you may be amenable, maybe, you might. But, the trend has been in the opposite direction.

And, it blew up.

As far as the first amendment goes, my first post in this thread complains that Atheism is being pushed to become the state religion against that first amendment's purpose. If you want to show concern, show concern when either religion vies for state religion.

I can understand the distaste for Christians and for religions in general. But, usually, Democrats have been the most receptive and compassionate concerning these issues. Instead I find this issue bringing out the most intransigent and unyielding responses.

I should attempt to call more people: gov'nor.

[tx_dem41]

43. I don't believe I have shown distaste for Christians and for religions..

..in general. And I believe that the hostility for OTHER religions (other than Christianity) is much more prevalent in schools than Atheism. In fact, I would like you to cite ONE example of Atheism being pushed in the school (recognizing that ignoring religion is not equal to Atheism). I can cite several examples where Judaism, Buddhism, and Islam is oppressed in the modern school system.

To sum up, generally, I have no problem with students being allowed to use school facilities to pray,etc., IF and ONLY IF ALL religions, including the ones cited as well as Paganism, Rastafarianism, etc are allowed that equal access. Would you agree with letting those religions (and others) have that equal access.

[realFedUp]

28. Progressive Christians Uniting

http://www.progressivechristiansuniting.org/index.shtml

[JohnnyCougar]

14. At least half of Catholics

like me.

[RUDUing2]

22. and me...hey how many times have you been told

you aren't a *real* catholic...or called a heretic...

[Left Is Write]

37. Although I'm not Catholic, I have been told on occasion

that I am not a "real" Christian because I am not a Bible literalist.

[thinksmart]

2. Moderate

I believe in personal freedom and god.

[ContraBass Black]

4. That makes you a moderate?

Do belief in each of those come from different directions? Are they in some way exclusive, so that belief in both requires a compromise?

[bobbieinok]

6. not really...God gives humans free will

does pose some interesting problems

for humans to have free will, God cannot step in and stop them from doing something... even though their actions hurt someone else

raises the question of the definition of God.....an older defn: God is omnipotent, omniscient, and all good.......how can God be all 3 and allow harm to result from free will?....an answer: God is not one of these 3 or surrenders one of these 3.....I have tended to say that God is not omnipotent.....to say God surrenders omnipotence is the same to me as saying God is not good

[ContraBass Black]

11. I disagree.

I don't think that having the power to do anything logically equates to being the one who does everything. God gave us will, and allows us to act on it.

[Festivito]

29. Aside: Having all power is not the same as being all-powerful.

God has the power to delegate some of that power in free will. So is free will better than having evil in the world. Well, you can say it isn't, but, if it were not you couldn't ask the question.

[OutsourceBush]

8. We need the BIG TENT

Big Tent Democrats, the more people we envite in, the bigger we make the tent, until the tent is big enough to win.

[Yuugal]

38. how about better barkers?

If we make the tent too big its going to collapse under its own weight. How about some better barkers outside the tent?

[proudbluestater]

9. It you want to see a Religious left site, look here!!

www.sojo.net

They are progressive Christians. Their founders statement is: God is not a Republican. Or a Democrat.

If interested, visit the site. They are wonderful!@

[hfojvt]

18. I suppose that means God is a Green

God may be omnipotent, but He/She has no more choice than Nader voters. If you are going to defeat the Republicans, you have to vote Democrat.
I cannot believe that God does not desire the defeat of the Republicans just as much as He/She desired the defeat of the Nazis. The Republicans with their fear-mongering, war-mongering, contempt of the poor and working people, and lack of honesty and compassion and civility are simply not the party of God.
Now, if God would just do some phone-banking for us ...

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[everclear]

13. we need everybody including the right

just not the neoCONs TRAITORS! :argh:

[m berst]

15. good post; one caution

Conservative theology and liberal politics are not necessarily incompatible, nor are liberal theology and conservative politics. Religion has become so politicized and politics so religionized that it is difficult to sort through anything. This, of course, is the danger from blurring the lines between church and state.

If we judge various churches with a conservative-liberal political yardstick, we are making the same mistake as those who judge government on a conservative-liberal theological yardstick.

A relative handful of ruthless and unscrupulous men have succeeded in creating a social Frankenstein monster of fundamentalist Christianity and reactionary politics and seized virtual control of one of our political parties and now of our government. What they are doing has very little to do with religion or government and is destroying both. They have promoted a series of lies - that to be conservative theologically you must be a fundamentalist; that to to be a fundamentalist you must be conservative politically; that to be conservative politically you must be a Republican; that to be a Republican you must be a reactionary. They have achieved all but the final step - that to be a reactionary you must be a fascist.

This can't be fought by merely replacing liberals at each step. It is the process of blending religion and politics in the way that they are doing it that is dangerous, and imitating it in a mirror-like fashion can't work.

[Breeze54]

16. All Ready Gone,,,,

The religous all ready left....

the replacements (self-appointed) are the false prophets...

sort of like Twilight Zone...

or

" The Body Snatchers"....here's your pod.....

assimalate.....

or be destroyed......

[RevCheesehead]

34. Excuse me?

I'm still here, and so are many so-called "religious left."

I think there's a great "wake up call," to which people are now responding.

[hfojvt]

17. It depends what you mean by religious right

I do not believe that a) fundies are a large enough percentage of voters to be THAT important, or b) that they can be moved.
What are the poll numbers?
I have something like -
Protestants 40-60 (Kerry - Bush)
Catholics 49-51
What percentage of the 60% and the 51% are fundamentalists? Certainly not more than half, and probably less than a third (somebody link to a study please). All we need is about 1% of Catholics and 3% of Protestants to tip the election our way. We cannot reach the extremes, but we can perhaps reach the margins.
Remember that oftentimes a Fundy will believe that even another Fundy is not a real Christian. Heck Mormonland (Utah) is one of the reddest of the red states (as a genealogist, I love Mormons, but I hate their politics). Ask a Baptist or a Pentecostal how they feel about Mormons.

[chicagiana]

20. Pound them with the scriptures ...

When in Rome, you speak Roman. When in the Bible Belt, you have to speak biblically. And you know what, it's an argument that we can win because what those creeps are doing IS NOT Christian.

If Jesus had attended the Republican convention, he would have turned over EVERY table!!!!

[H2O Man]

26. The religious left

needs to reach out to the religious middle. As it is, the religious right has been able to use a tiny segment of the left, which is openly hostile to religion in general, to discredit the left. It doesn't matter if the people who write ignorant things like "fuck the religious left" are freepers, spys, drunks, or just plain old idiots: their ignorance and stupidity is used to reflect on the left, and the people in the middle of the mainstream correctly do not wish to be associated with them. And so, at the same time the religious left reaches out to the middle, the non-religious left should put the idiot left in check.

[Catchawave]

27. We also need to embrace.....and respect....

...the philosphies, platforms and compassion of the Greens, the DK's (Kucinich supporters) and other liberal advocacy groups working to protect animals and the environment from corporate thugs that even the Dems embrace.

[Kipepeo]

32. I think the religious left in general

is ready to reclaim the word religion and all that goes with it.

So many people equate "religious" with right-wing politics now, and that's just not the case historically.

The religious left needs a revival the same way the political left does.

[tx_dem41]

33. Heck, I would be happy even if the religious middle

would reclaim the word! ;)

[RevCheesehead]

35. Ah, but many people in the religious left see politics as separate!

Many would claim that religion has NOTHING to do with politics, and I see their point (and to a certain extent, I agree with that).

Similarly, many people around here simply see politics AND religion as a "private" issue - one not to be discussed publically (I disagree with this view). I've known many strong Dems who simply will not put up a sign, bumpersticker, or pin because they "don't want to offend anyone."

I think we have a lot to learn from African-American congregations. Their sense of social justice is embedded in the Word, and vice-versa. One has an obligation to be involved in the world, because nothing changes unless you participate in the solution.

The religious left, or Mainline Protestantism, has been slumbering since VietNam. Their fear prevented them from speaking out, and many people left the church because it was irrelevant, or filled with hypocrites.

Hey, I'm so liberal, I tell my congregation that God has enough love for all of us, AND Osama bin Laden AND Saddam Hussein... (and I would add here, "even GW*". It's kind of fun, because once people begin to realize how radical Jesus' message is, it kind of gives them permission to BE LIBERAL!

[Kipepeo]

39. I'm glad there are Reverends

like you Cheesehead!

:)

[RevCheesehead]

40. Thanks, Kipepeo!

:toast:

[SonofMass]

36. Well, the Rapture could happen and you Could be left behind!

[datasuspect]

45. yeah and w

could repent and become a humanitarian leader.

not putting odds on either

[ArkDem]

49. But what about Hell?

[Sterling]

42. I was not aware that there was a political entity called that.

I don't see any organized action on the part of leftist christians. I don't really think they are a political force. That is probably because they actually follow the teachings of Christ and do not covet wealth and power.

[Ms_Mary]

46. There's no organized representation for people like me

who are both religious and politically liberal. There should be. There has to be a way to counter the perception that the Republican's are God's moral party. The things they stand for are not things I associate with my beliefs.

[w4rma]

47. "Religious LEFT" (UCC) ad banned by networks

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2773107

[Ms_Mary]

48. A friend pointed me towards that story yesterday

Too controversial my ass. You can push hell and damnation, but open calls to join in worship are too controversial. That's exactly why the religious left needs representation so we don't keep getting the conservative right's agenda forced down our throats while we get accused of being godless.