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Nordic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 11:41 AM
Original message
let's start talking about what we want our new party to do
Assuming the Democratic Party is dead (which it arguably is, seeing as how nobody but Bush's Mom should have voted for him, and the Dems had four years to deal with e-voting and failed to deal with it and they have failed to deal with the current media situation and I could go on and on and on .....)

What do we want our new party to look like?

I propose the following:

In general:

A move to common sense and truth is our only hope.
The Democratic Party has turned into a wishy-washy, pandering--to-everybody joke.

We need a party that says the truth, that stands up for truth, and quits bullshitting.

We need to get away from the connotation-laden words "right" and "left" and "liberal" and "conservative" and just get back to common sense and basics.

To me, Howard Dean is the only person I've seen represent this approach. I want him to start a new party and start kicking some ass. I know he'll have millions of supporters. I will be one of them. But if he sticks with the Democratic Party, I want a new party wiith leaders who will stand for such FACTS like:

"it's for the good of the country, and the good of every citizen in the country, that we immunize our children".

"it's for the good of the country, and the good of every citizen in the country, if we make absolutely sure that things like flu vaccine are available ahead of time for all our citizens (does anybody think the Dems or GOP is gonna do anything about the coming bird-flu pandemic? HA!)"

"It's for the good of the country, and the good of every cittizen in the country, if we invest a Manhattan-project type of money into alternative energies (and compare it to the cost of the Iraq war)"

"It's for the good of the country and the good of every citizen in the country, if we invest in clean water, clean air, and topsoil protection, and actively stimulate the adoption of organic, non-fossil-fuel-based, self-sufficient farming techniques."

Stuff like this. Old notion of "partisanship" should have absolutely nothing to do with this kind of stuff.

And this new party needs to frame the debate as "the people" versus "the corporatists". No more Republican and Democrat. Simply the people versus the business interests.

These interests do merge. What's good for one CAN be good for the other. But we need to cut through the bullshit and quit listening to the business propaganda and quit letting the business propagandists run our media so we can get some common sense back into the national debate.

Oh, and I want a party where the goddamn MEMBERS can have a vote in who the LEADERS are!!!!!
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Nordic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
1. don't everybody start talking at once!
:kick:
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Mirwib Donating Member (95 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
54. Any new party should try to eliminate gerrymandering

Personally, I believe that gerrymandering has gotten completely out of line. The whole idea of a single winner-take-all contests is disappointing. What is really needed is some type of proportional representation so that legislatures represent the people rather than the people who belong to a single party of a particular region.
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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
2. Your suggestions are good, keep going . . .
. . . i.e.

"It's for the good of the country that lobbists be bared from influencing any representative of congress."

"It's for the good of the country that representatives must attend congress while in sesssion and must sit in on all discussions or be forced to resign their seat."

"It's for the good of the country that the constitutional freedoms of all Americans be assured and that the Patriot Acts I and II be repealed immediately."

"It's for the good of the country that all Americans and companies doing business in America pay a fair share of the taxes and that special interest tax shelters and tax avoidance be completely eliminated."

. . . please keep this list growing.
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Nordic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #2
18. those are good. Those are practical, common-sense notions
that nobody can really argue with.

Why are 61% of corporations paying NO INCOME TAXES?

That's wrong. They should pay their fair share.

Simple, non-idealogical notions like that.

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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
3. Personally,
I think Howard Dean is the best man to lead the Democratic Party. Like you, if they reject him and keep on with the muddle they've done the past few years, Dean should start a new party.
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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
4. Not even the Republicans believe the Democratic Party is dead
although they are shouting it loud and long in the media. They are BSing as usual. They want to convince you that their RAZOR THIN victory means something.

I do not see the sense of splintering the Democratic party as the Republican party gets more unified.

It is worth reading Joe Conason's piece in salon for some historical perspective.

Dems lost the battle, not the war.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/conason/2004/11/06/history...

<snip>

Democrats lost the battle, not the war
Only people suffering from historical amnesia could believe this election proves that liberalism is dead.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
By Joe Conason


Nov. 6, 2004 |

In the dark post-election mood that lingers, the defeated should find history both restorative and instructive. Restorative because the past reminds us that both victors and vanquished tend to mistake the dimensions of the immediate event, whose true significance cannot be known until years or even decades later. Instructive because the past tells us so much about how the conditions of our present distress came to exist -- and, most important, how we can change them.

So for the moment set aside the triumphal proclamations from the Republican leadership and their echoes in the media, along with the petty recriminations against John Kerry, who has devoted his life to public service and deserves admiration for the honorable campaign he waged against unscrupulous opponents. As a presidential candidate he had his virtues and flaws, which obviously differed from those of George W. Bush -- and will surely differ from those of the next Democratic nominee.

<snip>
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niceypoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. The DNC and "Move to the middle" people are splitting it
A move to the middle abandons the base. Abandoning the base cost us the midterms 2 years ago.
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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. DNC (Dem Natl Committee) or DLC (Dem Leadership Council)?
at any rate, fight the move to the middle, not the Dem Party.
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Mirwib Donating Member (95 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
55. The Democratic party is not even close to being dead
What comes around goes around. This whole process is cyclical. Since 1932 there have been more years that has had a Democratic president rather than a Republican president.
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Mist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
5. I'm with you
I think it's time for a new party. The Democratic Party has been spineless and almost as much on the take as the Rethugs. "A plague on both your houses!" A party that's truly for the people (and not the people who happen to own corporations) is needed. I'm tired of labels too. No "Left" or "Right", just common sense and no one bought out by big biz. I think some of the more moderate Repugs. would come on board too. Possibly combine with the Greens?
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Lisaben2619 Donating Member (193 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. What is wrong with the Green Party?
I just don't get it. It is already the fastest growing new political party in the country and the platform is a progressive's dream come true. Why do people continue to dismiss it like it's just made up a bunch of hemp-wearing tree-huggers? (Not that there's anything wrong with that)
Everyone is on Cobb's side when he speaks out against election fraud, but forgets about him the next minute.
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Fovea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. I have not forgotten about the Greens.
Indeed, they are gaining in my estimation, from an opinion
that was previously unfavorable, not because they weren't irresponsible in 2000, but because they are acting responsible now.

I think they need to increase their vocal support for making America as citizen focused as the EU, and show how they will break the back of corporatism.

They need a billboard in every major market in the US with bits of their message. If they want to be the progressive alternative, the time is now.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. I'll be registering Green prior to 2006.
Enough with the nose-holding for politicians who are..well..politicians that swim with tide of "popular" opinion and drop their principles with the drop of a poll or the sight of a "contribution" from a fat cat.
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Nordic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. I intend to do more research on the Green party
but my first instincts are these:

a. The name is all wrong. It's too much like "Greenpeace". Salads. Too idealistic-sounding. I want one that has a more practical approach. I am idealistic, but I am realistic. I want a new party to embrace ideals based on reality, based on science for instance. For example, protecting the environment doesn't have to be about ideals, it should be purely practical as far as government's involvement in it goes.

b. Isn't it the same party, or a close facsimile, of the "green" parties in europe and other countries? I want a new party, not one that's beholden to any other entity, real or merely perceived. Perception is so important.

c. I think they might be too pacifistic. I could be wrong. I don't believe in pacificism any more than I believe in being a spineless Democrat. Weakness leads to nothing except bullies kicking your ass.

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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
7. Reduce the size
and influence of the Military Industrial Complex (the biggest inefficiency in our economy). Use "soft" power more to gain influence and world stability. Get our fiscal house in better order.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
10. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Another sell out to the right? Pander to win?
Worked so well the last 3 elections. How about, instead, the Dems back real gun control.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. Good for you. We cancel each other out.
I've never voted for a candidate that didn't support gun control. So, does that mean that you didn't vote for Kerry, Gore, Clinton, Carter, etc?

And, I'm far from being alone on this issue too, trust me.
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PrisonerLazy8 Donating Member (88 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #13
25. Could you PLEASE define "real gun control"?
Does it affect me as a law abiding citizen?
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. For a start, registering all firearms. Just like cars.
How about banning all firearms that have no practical purpose other than being efficient at killing people?

How about storing all firearms in armories where they can be checked out for a particular use?

How about making it illegal to carry a loaded firearm at any time other than when it is in legal use? i.e. Hunting, target practice.

How about applying some of the same rules to firearm owners that we do to getting a driver's license? Physically capable of operating one. Mentally capable of operating one. Knowledge about how to use one safely.

We don't let people drive if they're mental cases, drunks, addicts, etc.

What is so unbearably restrictive about treating gunowners like responsible citizens rather than a priveleged class?

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PrisonerLazy8 Donating Member (88 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. storing all firearms in armories
Fine as long as the armory is my pocket, home, car or hand. Keeping your defensive weapon in an armory is as useless as dialing 911 when a rapist is ripping off your skirt.

As long as there are those intent on harming others I will support self-defense.
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Pepperbelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. no way ...
Not as a policy or even as something to be desired.

You think that's a winner?

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Nordic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. Again I want a practical approach
Terrorists should not be able to come to America to buy the weapons they can't obtain elsewhere.

That's just silly. It doesn't make practical sense.

Let's keep idealogy out of this.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Terrorists needn't be felons.
Proposal, at the least register all firearms.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
12. Great post Nordic and I agree with everything you say.
I too would follow Howard Dean anywhere he goes to.
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Lisaben2619 Donating Member (193 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. I love Howard Dean, too, and supported him with time and money but
maybe I'm too cynical, but there is no way in hell that the "powers that be" in the Democratic Party are going to let Howard Dean be in contol of anything. Look at how his fellow Dems took him out of the primaries. His politics are not about corporations: he'll be out of the Dem family photo by 06.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #19
20.  Maybe that's what needs to be done.
Our Republican Lite party no longer serves us. Maybe we should form a social democrats party and get Howard Dean to
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. This is what I want my Party to do!
http://blog.progressivevote.org/index.php?cat=8

Stop supporting Elephants in Donkey suits.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
26. I already have a party, I like but we are allowed dual party membership
so I can sign on with yours too if it gets up and running. :)
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #26
57. The dual party thing must be local
I wa kicked out of the WA State Greens for becoming a Dem PCO to support Kucinich.
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Sugarbleus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
27. Social responsibility!!!!!!!!!!!!
:hi:
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Nordic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #27
34. specifically ....?
what, exactly?

"social responsibility" can mean many different things to many different people
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Sugarbleus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #34
41. Welfare reform revocation, housing for low income, healthcare fo
Edited on Sat Nov-27-04 07:10 PM by Sugarbleus
EVERYONE. Broaden safty net programs. Stop the outsourcing. Create jobs stateside. Wage hikes. Help for the little guy, not just the upper crust.......etc..
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Doncha_know Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
29. We need to...
We need to make sure that Micheal Moore, Barbara Streisand, Whoopee Goldberg, Rosie ODonald, and Puff Diddy ("vote or die")and others like them do not present themselves as the face of the Democratic Party. Thats what cost us this election. They have nothing in common with the typical voting American. The screaming hateful insults and calling the other side morons and stupid did nothing but motivate them. The freak show that marched through New York City, thats a whole other subject. Eight second sound bites by the candidates on the evening news... Please. I am still not sure what Kerry's "Plan" was and I'm not sure if he is either. Telling us to go on his web site and read about it is not good enough. The Party leaders let this happen. If they let these people do it again we will end up with the same results. JMHO
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Nordic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. another person who never watched Fahrenheit 9/11
Edited on Sat Nov-27-04 05:09 PM by Nordic
at no time did Michael Moore ever scream, or hurl insults, or tell lies.

That's what the RW does.

And when did you ever see Barbra Streisand say anything? I never did.

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Doncha_know Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. Micheal Moore is not our leader
I was not specifically talking about Moore when I typed that but I do think Moore injecting himself into the election did hurt us.

I did see the leadership of our Party on the news night after night hurling insults and calling the other side liars. Babs posted lots of stuff on her web site and gave a couple of interviews on her political views. She needs to just shut up and sing. Did you see Yentle by the way? (Humor break)
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Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Our? Us?
Edited on Sat Nov-27-04 06:13 PM by notsodumbhillbilly
From someone quoting Laura Ingraham's "Shut up and Sing"?
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Doncha_know Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. Ours? Us?
I was quoting no one. I made the statement as I wrote it and I stand by it. I truly believe that the Hollywood crowd cost US (You and ME)the election. I am not sure about Ingraham being the only one that can say shut up and sing. Anyone can say that if I am correct? :hug:
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Nordic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #35
51. you didn't see it, did you?
and as far as people spewing insults and hatred, well, like I said, that's what the right-wing does.

There are no hatemongers like Hannity, Rush, and Coulter. They spew more hate per capita than anybody remotely connected with the left-hand half of the country.

In other words, I'm calling you out and saying you're wrong.

And did you or did you not actually see Fahrenheit 9/11?
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jmowreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #29
42. Those people didn't cost us the election
Oh, they didn't help...some things that really did cost us the election:

* Failing to respond to each Repug smear within 24 hours of its utterance
* Failing to exploit Bush's weaknesses
* Campaign hiatuses
* Letting the Republicans snipe at our candidate during the campaign
* Not returning the favor; we honored the "gentleman's agreement" to refrain from politics during the opposition's convention even after they politicked their asses off during ours
* Giving them lots of ammunition to use against us--here I am referring to the windsurfing and goose-hunting photos
* Saying we had a plan but not explaining it on television (you hit on this)
* Relying too heavily on our website--people who plan to vote for the Republican are NOT going to read the Democrat's website (which ties into the last bullet point, but here I must amplify: the Bushies kept running around saying Bush released his entire military record while Kerry refused to do the same. Kerry's entire military record, sans his medical records, was posted on johnkerry.com. Bush could NOT have released his entire military record because the Bush for Governor campaign scrubbed it, literally destroying official government records (which is a crime, if you've been keeping up), to remove anything incriminating before Bush was allowed to run for governor of Texas. Our rebuttal could have been real simple: the second a Bushite mentioned that the village idiot released his entire file, we bring out the guy who observed them scrubbing it, and any of the scrubbers who wish to repent, and explain how there's no way Bush could have released his entire file because Bush's people destroyed the embarrassing stuff before he got into politics. Of course we didn't do it; we fought by the Marquis of Queensbury rules against Otto the Facebreaker.)

Simply responding to Bush's bullshit would have given us AT LEAST an extra one percent.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 04:46 PM
Response to Original message
31. excellent post, Nordic ..
i would like to add that we as Americans should value work over capital ... earned income should be taxed at rates lower than investment earnings ... right now, we do it exactly the other way ...

for those with limited incomes, appropriate deductions could be provided ...

i would also like to add that we have got to make money a non-issue in the electoral process ... we cannot continue to preach about democracy when the wealthy yield a greatly disproportionate amount of power ...

and the same for the legislative process ... most legislation is written for the benefit of those at the top ... the goal is to benefit the super-wealthy and their corporations ... that has to change ...

the Democratic Party has barely been visible on these issues ... token policies, like minimum wage or the Family Leave Act are mere bandaids on the great inequities of our age ...
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will work 4 food Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. It's too late
Like it was in 1773. The King will not respond. And it don't matter what stripes the King wears, for our true ruler is the global corporations.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. even if resistance is futile
resistance is still the only path ...

nice conundrum, eh ??

of course, i don't agree that resistance is futile ...
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I_Love_Oregon Donating Member (91 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #31
39. Then what do you propose to do about it?
<b>snip</b>
token policies, like minimum wage or the Family Leave Act are mere bandaids on the great inequities of our age ...
<b>snip</b>

Then what do you want to do about these inequitites? That goes for everyone else... what are some solutions to the vast "inequities" that exist in the world?

Instead of just being anti-Right, give us some solutions that can truly catch fire with the masses. Or, Is the only recourse a true revolution to take back the power?

Is there other issues that perhaps are being overlooked that will serve us better?

K




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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. well, i'm glad you asked ...
Edited on Sat Nov-27-04 06:55 PM by welshTerrier2
but first things first, Welcome to DU I_Love_Oregon !!

i think it would be fair to say that without taking back power, we have no chance of repairing the inequities we face ... we are in a life and death class warfare battle ... our government is nothing more than the hand maidens for the super wealthy ... and let me make this point that i often neglect, not all wealthy people are against us ... but that doesn't change the fact that our government has been bought and paid for and that most policies are designed to benefit the rich and keep the rest of us in line ...

so, what's the plan ... first of all, let me tell you that either tomorrow or Monday I'm going to be writing a proposal for a new DU forum ... it's going to be called something like: Core Values Think Tank ... it's goal is to take a step back from today's rhetoric and put a fresh, common sense approach on the great issues of the day before the American people ... we need some support for this new forum before DU will approve it ... please keep checking General Discussion - Politics for the issuance of the new forum proposal ... we'd love to have you, and all the other newbies out there, join us as charter members ...

anyway, i'd like to see some specific policies (to be defined as step 2) eminate from the common sense values we develop ... democrats have been too focussed for too long on producing detailed laundry lists of policies and on specific candidates and shades along the left-center-right debate without tying everything back to a no nonsense, clearly stated set of core values ... the values come first ... and then everything else falls into place behind them ...

so if you're looking for a specific answer on how to eliminat the inequities we all see, stay tuned ... in fact, do better than stay tuned ... jump right in ...
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I_Love_Oregon Donating Member (91 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. the juices are flowing
Thanks for the welcome. I appreciate that a lot.


Your forum idea sounds excellent. I would like to see a consensus of core beliefs debated and ultimately agreed to around here... here's a suggestion for the very first one: ideas, no matter how off-the-wall, or (horror of horrors), compromising they might seem are welcomed, and the intimidation factor is minimized.

I especially agree with your first paragraph. Cleary, the wealthy, and corporations have most of the power. Perhaps nothing else can be done short of a revolution to overcome this, but I honestly think that will not server our interests, and will only lead to more election defeats for our side.

Ultimately, it's my belief that change must come from within the system.. within the belly of the beast itself. How do we do this? The same way other ills have been eradicated over the years.. by affecting the belief system of the beast itself. How does this manifest itself in every day life? How about this: Instead of railing against the evils of Capitalism (in which, there are many to choose from), let's support the idea of ownership opportunity for aveage people in regard to corporations, specifically, their places of work. I'm thinking of things such as stock options. These recently villified little pieces of paper are a great opportunity for average people to gain a foothold in a corporation. Such a thing should be wholeheartedly supported as a liberalizing tool, and a moderating influence on the ways of the corporate elite. By gaining increasing leverage with corporations themselves, we can effect how they operate, and ultimately, how the world works.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. interesting ...
Edited on Sat Nov-27-04 08:19 PM by welshTerrier2
you wrote: the intimidation factor is minimized.

there are lots of great people on DU ... but make no mistake about it, we're a combative lot ... i hope you never feel too intimidated to share your thoughts ... what the hell good is this place if the big mouths are able to intimidate people ... stick to your guns ... your ideas are as good as anyone elses ... you'll get beat on some around here ... be a little thick skinned and say your piece ... we need the best thoughts and contributions of every DU'er, not just the most aggressive ones ...

i completely agree with your point that our message can't start out with "we're anti-capitalism" ... many of us are but that's not a message most Americans are ready to address ... i can hear it now "so what are you, Communists?" ... we need to get away from labels and all the baggage they carry ... don't fight against capitalism ... fight against the problems capitalism causes ... for example, ask someone if they think large corporations should have to pay the clean-up costs if they pollute the environment ... as voters whether corporations should be able to have a greater influence with Congress than voters ... when the questions are phrased correctly, different results can be produced ...

i like your idea of putting greater emphasis on stock options ... some of us call that letting the workers own a greater share of the means of production ... probably should stay away from that language though ... perhaps combining this with a fresh look at unions would be a way to give workers a little more control over their work lives ... unions have gotten a bad rap (perhaps somewhat deserved) but I think the pendulum has swung too far away from them ... the American worker needs more power and a shiny new image ...

keep the ideas coming ... i'll try to remember to PM (i.e. private message) you when we issue the new forum proposal ... it will probably get posted on Monday afternoon in General Discussion - Politics ...
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I_Love_Oregon Donating Member (91 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. Thanks for the feedback
I get the feeling there is a real scism at DU, with two competing visions. There is clearly a vibe here that says the system.. however that is defined, is so clearly broken that nothing can be done to make it better. Others, like yourself, are more pragmatic, and want to see the Democrats overcome the Right, but are more moderate in their understanding and belief of how this should happen. Ultimately, I think we all simply want to see the world a healthier place for all.

My question, and what I'm looking for at DU, is how prevelant this first view is. Perhaps we are truly at the forefront of a new, more Socialist movement, that is unwilling to compromise. Perhaps we are seeing the seedlings of this even now. I just don't know, but I'm curious how the Left will respond to this election, how what direction it will take in the years ahead.

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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #48
56. how the Left will respond to this election
i think this is an extremely dangerous time for the Democratic Party ... i don't think they understand what's happening right now to their base of activists ... many here seem to equate activists only with the left ... i don't ... i think we came together from across the political spectrum and put aside our differences to fight against bush as hard as we could ... we were all devastated by the reported results ...

but i think there is a great anger at the party right now ... some of us, perhaps we're the patient ones, are expecting every democrat to start fighting back ... what the hell were we fighting for if we have to watch hillary, schumer and a bunch of others vote for the neo-con budget bill last week ... are we an opposition party or aren't we?

i really think the "combativeness" issue transcends our usually left-right battles ... we don't want the democrats to just go along like meek little puppy dogs ... we want fighters ... i'm afraid there could be a dangerous alienation of many party supporters if things don't change in a hurry ... this won't just cost the party voters; it will cost them workers ...

i HATE every democrat who continues to back the U.S. invasion of Iraq ... if I don't see some progress on fighting back on this issue fairly soon, I will refuse to ever again support anyone who doesn't speak out against the invasion and call for a complete withdrawal of American troops ... I've set 12/31 as a "must speak out date" and i've set 3/31 as an "all troops out date" ... democrats won't be able to make this happen in a republican controlled congress but they need to start telling the truth to the American people and representing those of us who fought so hard for them ... so there's my little rant for today ... if democrats can't stand up to the genocide we're committing in Iraq, what's the point of supporting them ... i still have hope that the party elite are starting to hear the message ... but time is growing very short ...

i would agree with your characterization that I'm pragmatic ... but i'm also one pissed off democrat ...
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Nordic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #45
50. include me in that as well if you would
That sounds like something that needs to happen.

I tried to get it going in this thread.

I'm liking a lot of what I'm seeing here.

I'm serious about starting a new party somehow/someway. I mean why the hell not?
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. absolutely, Nordic ...
i'll probably be PM'ing you on Monday afternoon ...

if not, make sure you look for the new forum proposal in GD - Politics ...

i like what you wrote in the base post ... our focus will be more on fixing the democratic party than on starting a new party but you're always free to steal any good ideas we come up with ...

give some thought to what we should call the forum ... so far, i've been referring to it as "Core Values Think Tank" ... check out the thread i started about it in Ask the Admins ... the thread includes a link to a thread started by DU member ulTRAX ... it was a long and very interesting thread ...
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OnionPatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
46. I've been waiting a long time
to hear a Democrat talk about small business. I know Kerry did to an extent, but I would have liked to have heard more. In fact, I think small business is a place where we can pick up a lot of voters if we come up with a real plan.

Americans love to think of themselves as independent and I don't know many people who wouldn't prefer to own their own business than work for someone else. Yet the way things have been going in the last 50 years or so, more and more of us are becoming nothing but cogs in a corporate wheel.

In promoting the plan, we can show how huge corporations are actually making it harder for us to make a living independently from them. Our creativity is being taken away in the name of expediency. Quality is being done away with in the name of profit. Example: Big agri-business has given us cheap food but low quality food, full of pesticides and variety is non-existant. (Only those veggies that ship well are grown regardless of flavor, etc.) I would so much rather buy my produce from the farmer, my neighbor, down the road. But my neighbor is having a hard time staying in business.

Small business needs help. Tax breaks, better laws, help with employee health care, etc. Huge corporations should be the exception, not the norm for American businesses. I don't think I'm alone in these thoughts.
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I_Love_Oregon Donating Member (91 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. good point.. agree
Absolutely. Small business is something most everyone can relate to. Unfortunately, this is an area where Republicans have moved far ahead in. Your average small business person has bought into the rhetoric of the Right. Kerry did go after this block, but the effort has half-hearted. It was not always this way.

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Nordic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. the GOP are not "capitalists". They are "corporatists"
But they've spread the propaganda that the dems are anti-capitalist.

Yes, our new party needs to be actually pro-capitalist, and call the repubs on their corporatist, monopolistic, oligarchy-supporting corruption.

The republicans have promoted anti-competetive measures, what we need to do is bring some refereeing back into the system, so that actual competition is enforced.
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stavka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
47. ...and tax rich Democrats and corporations, like churches, charities, etc
If the democratic party is to have a voice against a party that represents conservative thought and wealth, we need to also attack the wealthy in the democratic party and its base for the same evils.

Even the Grachi understood that!
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Only Me Donating Member (631 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 12:57 AM
Response to Original message
58. To be confident and firm on what we stand for and let the public
know we are secure in our own beliefs and abilities. To have a strategic plan for the next two years and for the two after that. Rove planned his strategy for winning for years and it paid off.
We need to get back into the public eye with familiar strong characters and be seen and heard OFTEN. Give the impression we are secure with our beliefs and abilities and the public should be too. I have loads more but it's getting late so I won't go on rambling.
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