Today, I started thinking about Entropy.

[KlatooBNikto]

Entropy is a measure of the state of order or disorder in any system. The Second Law of Thermodynamics says that the entropy of any system inexorably rises ( meaning disorder increases) as increasing amounts of Energy gets used.In human activities, for example, this problem is showing up as the increasinly unstable weather patterns as we consume more and more fossil fuels. Even in our biological systems, I have seen papers that say that as we increase our consumption of food and increase our energy levels, our body's immune systems detriorate and our longevity decreases.

Any one else have any other thoughts on this?

[DrWeird]

1. I'd say you should study more physics.

You've got funny ideas about entropy.

Keep the wall between physics and metaphysics solid.

[KlatooBNikto]

6. What is metaphysical about the weather or for that matter about human

biological systems? All systems including the universe itself are thermodynamic nature.

[DrWeird]

7. You're taking a profound but specific topic from physics...

that is, the 2nd law of thermodynamics, and with your obviously cursory understanding of the topic you're applying it to situations that don't fit. It's like saying: "Well, I've been thinking about gravity lately. And the laws of gravity say things go down hill. And just look around. The economy is going down hill. The war is going down hill. It's gravity in action."

No offense.

[htuttle]

8. But as long as we've already breached that wall here...

:evilgrin:

Do you think that life (as a general category) is anentropic/anti-entropic?

I read that once, and got to thinkin'. Life does appear to create order and 'information' out of 'disorder' (ie., such as diffuse sunlight). It seems to develop more complexity over time (think 'long time'). It would seem to be the only thing moving in the opposite direction, entropically speaking.


Just something that got me thinking once. I don't get many opportunities to inject something into a discussion about entropy, after all.

[DrWeird]

12. Oh for fuck's sake.

Every creationists favorite argument.

No, life follows the laws of thermodynamics just like everything else. Genomes can get more complicated because genomes are not closed systems. Nothing metaphysical about it. Just bad science.

[htuttle]

14. Oh, now don't get mad

That's an excellent answer.

"Genomes get more complicated because they are not closed systems. "

Hadn't thought of that, and that settles it as far as I'm concerned. Makes complete sense to me.

[ogsball]

2. you are relating unrelated theories. nt

[phantom power]

3. Entropy is the amount of "useless" energy in a closed system.

It's popular to use the term "disorder", but I think that causes people to draw inappropriate analogies.

[stellanoir]

4. When my child was an infant,

he would cry whenever something broke, I would quote Dr. Who and say, "Entropy is a Gallactic problem my dear." Others didn't understand this, but I think my son may have. Now a decade later he at the very least, has a great sense of humor.

[Dogmudgeon]

5. That's a little too simple

I don't mean to be persnickety about it, but those examples are very complex. The Earth certainly has a number of thermodynamically stable states; it's the passage from one to another that causes problems. As for food consumption, although calorie restriction has been linked to longer life span (by the late Roy Walford), most of the evidence is that it's from a cellular-level reaction to protect the body (human or lower-animal) from periods of famine -- not entropy.

The simpler -- ergo, smaller -- the system, the more closely will it adhere to entropic theories. It will be here that the real work of entropy (and other "low-level" physical phenomena) will occur.

Dynamic systems, like planetary weather and hydrology, and the function of animal bodies, are very difficult to generalize. We are still waiting for a descriptive system that can handle these complexities.

But don't feel bad -- it was a good shot!

--bkl
Entropy In Motion

[KlatooBNikto]

9. It is my understanding that the Second Law is applicable to small and

large systems.That the total entropy of the universe is constantly on the rise. Is that false?

[DrWeird]

13. The total disorder is on the rise.

nt

[Dogmudgeon]

15. The Second Law

It applies to all systems, but is seldom visible except in microcosms. Of course, this is a pretty fuzzy concept, too.

The complexity of a system can make it seem that the system is acting anti-entropically, when there's "just" a local negentropy. The entire universe is chaotic, so this is expected.

Physicists and information theorists have written far better material on this subject than any of us. I'm not sure if it's in there, but Feynman's lectures on physics are easily available and cover most of the range of physics in an introductory manner -- well worth looking for in any event.

Good luck!

--bkl

[KlatooBNikto]

16. Thanks.It seemed to me appropriate to think of Global Warming and the

change in our weather patterns as due to the increases in the energy input to our system.Similarly, I made the assumption that the original architecture of our cells breaks down as we consume more energy in living and this may be related to aging.I was really intrigued when scientists showed that reducing food intake and so the amount of energy used up in living allows the cells to survive longer.

[Beam Me Up]

10. Entropy is only half the equation. Negentropy may be moving in

the opposite direction. C.f.:
http://www.rawpaint.com/library/bateson/formsubstancedifference.html

[0rganism]

11. Don't stop thinking, but also do some learning

Do you really think such things as "human activities" and "biological systems" and "the weather" are governed by the thermodynamic rules of closed systems?

Hint: There's a relatively large source of energy a few light minutes away from us that greatly influences each of the things you mentioned...

[xpunkisneatx]

17. Whoa...

I am officially humbled by the intelligence of people on this board. I consider myself scientifically intelligent, but damn, you guys are talking WAY over my head.

[hatrack]

18. You need to stress that disorder increases in CLOSED systems

Our planet, considering the fairly, shall we say, substantial inputs from the sun over the past 4.5 billion years, is not a closed system. Nor, by default, are the biological systems present on and in it.