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Jesus agrees with Kerry on abortion: proof in 3 simple steps

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Francine Frensky Donating Member (870 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 11:21 AM
Original message
Jesus agrees with Kerry on abortion: proof in 3 simple steps
Are any of the following three statements wrong? Don't they add up to mean that Jesus did NOT believe life began at conception??

1. Jesus was a Jew.
2. Jews believe that abortion is wrong only after mid-term in a pregnancy, after movement begins in the womb.
3. Jesus challenged numerous Jewish rules/beliefs, but NEVER mentions abortion in the bible. Silence is consent.


Care to help me out here?






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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
1. I might be wrong, but I don't think all Jews believe #2.
n/t
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Doohickie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #1
15. True.... some take it further and do not see the fetus as a person
until it gets a soul when it takes the first "breath of life".... refer to the creation of Adam in Genesis where God "breathed life" into Adam.
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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
2. Here...
Edited on Thu Nov-18-04 11:27 AM by molly
http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_abor.htm

snip.....

Halacha (Jewish law) does define when a fetus becomes a nefesh (person). "...a baby...becomes a full-fledged human being when the head emerges from the womb. Before then, the fetus is considered a 'partial life.' " 5 In the case of a "feet-first" delivery, it happens when most of the fetal body is outside the mother's body.

Jewish beliefs and practice not neatly match either the "pro-life" nor the "pro-choice" points of view. The general principles of modern-day Judaism are that:

The fetus has great value because it is potentially a human life. It gains "full human status at birth only." 2

Abortions are not permitted on the grounds of genetic imperfections of the fetus.

Abortions are permitted to save the mother's life or health.

With the exception of some Orthodox authorities, Judaism supports abortion access for women.

"...each case must be decided individually by a rabbi well-versed in Jewish law." 5

more..

The Babylonian Talmud Yevamot 69b states that: "the embryo is considered to be mere water until the fortieth day." Afterwards, it is considered subhuman until it is born.

"Rashi, the great 12th century commentator on the Bible and Talmud, states clearly of the fetus 'lav nefesh hu--it is not a person.' The Talmud contains the expression 'ubar yerech imo--the fetus is as the thigh of its mother,' i.e., the fetus is deemed to be part and parcel of the pregnant woman's body." 1 This is grounded in Exodus 21:22. That biblical passage outlines the Mosaic law in a case where a man is responsible for causing a woman's miscarriage, which kills the fetus If the woman survives, then the perpetrator has to pay a fine to the woman's husband.


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kid a Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. I could live with that
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Francine Frensky Donating Member (870 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. Thanks. See, for 1,800 years, the Catholic church
believed the same thing as the Jews, atleast that is my understanding, then that changed in Vatican 1, in the 1800's, when a bishop wrote a paper saying life begins at conception.

So the basis for life begins at conception is not biblical.

What I'm thinking is that Jesus, as God, would be all-knowing, and if he understood that life really began at conception, and that this was an important concept that should be the number one issue of the religious, then wouldn't he have maybe challenged the current practice of the Jews? Wouldn't we see lots of places in the New Testament where this is addressed??

Instead we see Jesus MANY times teaching messages like inclusion (touching the lepers), forgiveness of enemies, helping the poor, rejecting fear, sharing wealth... those to me seem to be much-repeated messages....and really nothing to challenge a practice of abortion that must have been going on at the time.



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MsTryska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #8
22. Can You imagine
if in olden times the idea was that life began at conception?


a lot of folks would go to pieces over miscarriages.


it's that whole don't count your chickens until they hatch thing.
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MsTryska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #2
20. jews are so smart.
wait...was that racist?
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #20
53. Yes, it was racist (even though I know you're not racist)
and it was terribly unfair to those Jews who may be intellectually challenged. :-)
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
3. Won't work
You aren't "qualified" in their opinion to interpret the Bible. They won't listen to a thing you say.
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Francine Frensky Donating Member (870 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. Well, I've taught sunday school for 12 years...
and I've read most of the bible, but I admit not all....

perhaps you have a point.

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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. But you're not a fundie
so it doesn't matter how much you know about the Bible. According to them, you're not a Christian. Not a REAL Christian.

I'm not saying it makes sense. It's just how they think.
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GumboYaYa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
5. Jesus also said "judge not lest you be judged."
He also said, "Give unto Caesar that which is Caesar and give unto God that which is God's." I read these to mean that the laws of humans are to govern the relationships among humans and create oredrly society, not impose God's rules on others. A person relationship with God is between that persion and God. It is not the job of the state to interpose itself between a person and their God.

Also, God is pro-choice. His gift to Adam in the Garden of Eden was the ability to choose between good and evil. God was the very first pro-choicer.
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RUDUing2 Donating Member (968 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
6. links
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
7. Deleted message
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Francine Frensky Donating Member (870 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Sure Jesus was against abortion, but look at your catholic catechism
(I'm assuming you have one, and if you don't it's a great book), and check out the support for the statement that life begins at conception. It's not from the bible. It's from a paper written by a bishop in the 1800's.

That's my point.


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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
kiki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 01:20 PM
Original message
Well there's the problem...
You seem to think 'a bishop said it' and 'Jesus said it' are the same thing, and they're patently not.

This is my biggest problem with organised religion - I'm not an expert, but I'm led to believe that 'pretending to speak for God' is a pretty heinous crime in the Big Fella's eyes. Assuming we don't believe that any bishops, priests, imams etc are actually recieving prompts on what to say directly from God himself, aren't they ALL 'pretending to speak for God'?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
27. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
kiki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Erm, then what's up with your original post (#7)?
I don't imagine any of these scholars you mention have a direct hotline to Jesus either...
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RUDUing2 Donating Member (968 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #10
21. you are aware that the stance of the Catholic Church on abortion has
changed several times aren't you?

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_hist.htm

http://home.earthlink.net/~davidlperry/abortion.htm
Augustine, Bishop of Hippo, wrote in On Exodus (ca. 415) that early abortion should not be regarded "as homicide, for there cannot be a living soul in a body that lacks sensation due to its not yet being fully formed." Augustine believed that "hominization" took place at forty days after conception for males and eighty days for females. This view has been termed "delayed hominization" or "mediate animation," in contrast to "immediate animation/hominization" where the human soul is thought to exist from conception. However, in another work, On Marriage and Lust, Augustine condemned both abortion and contraception as immoral, since they permit sexual intercourse to occur without procreation, which he (like earlier Stoic philosophers) thought to be its only "natural" purpose. (Dombrowski; Hurst 8)
Thomas Aquinas, On the Truth of the Catholic Faith, book II, ch. 89, reflected the influence of Aristotle's views on human development: "The vegetative soul, which comes first, when the embryo lives the life of a plant, is corrupted, and is succeeded by a more perfect soul, which is both nutritive and sensitive, and then the embryo lives an animal life; and when this is corrupted, it is succeeded by the rational soul introduced from without ." This "delayed hominization" view was confirmed as Catholic dogma by the Council of Vienne in 1312, and has never been officially repudiated by the Vatican. (Hurst 12; Rachels 68)

in 1591, Pope Gregory XIV in Sedes Apostolica recommended "where no homicide or no animated fetus is involved, not to punish more strictly than the sacred canons or civil legislation does." (Hurst 15)

http://liberalslikechrist.org/Catholic/abortion.html
it appears that all of the bishops of signed off on the following claim (2nd paragraph) :
"It is the teaching of the Catholic Church from the very beginning, founded on her understanding of her Lord’s own witness to the sacredness of human life, that the killing of an unborn child is always intrinsically evil and can never be justified. If those who perform an abortion and those who cooperate willingly in the action are fully aware of the objective evil of what they do, they are guilty of grave sin and thereby separate themselves from God’s grace. This is the constant and received teaching of the Church."

As the famously witty and scholarly Catholic Senator Patrick Moynihan used to say, "People are entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts." If only the church would select its bishops on the basis of their theological expertise, instead of their achievements as administrators or their loyalty to the Vatican, the church might not embarrass itself by such official misstatements. The fact is that history does not bear out claim of the present pope, the Vatican, and America's bishops that their present opposition to contraception represents a constant "teaching of the Catholic Church from the very beginning, founded on her understanding of her Lord's own witness to the sacredness of human life, that the killing of an unborn child is always intrinsically evil and can never be justified." The truth is that the Catholic Church's teaching regarding abortion and when human life begins is nowhere near as constant as it claims. And considering the use made by the hierarchy to influence the government of the United States (and of the rest of the world to some extent), it is important to set this record straight :
Excerpts from the book, Vicars of Christ, by Peter De Rosa (former professor at Gregorian University, in Rome):
Is the Soul Infused at Conception?
Most Catholics assume that the soul is infused at conception. They may take it as an article of faith. In fact it is not. Vatican II deliberately left the issue aside and for a very good reason. For fourteen hundred years until late in the nineteenth century, all Catholics, including the popes, took it for granted that the soul is not infused at conception. If the church was wholly opposed to abortion, as it was, it was not on the basis of the conceptus starting as a human being.
From the fifth century, the church accepted without question the primitive embryology of Aristotle. The embryo began as a non-human speck that was progressively animated. This speck had to evolve from vegetative, through animal to spiritual being. Only in its final stage was it a human being. This is why Gratian was able to say: `He is not a murderer who brings about abortion before the soul is in the body.'
The characteristics of the foetus were attributed solely to the father. It (and it was correct to refer to the embryo as `it') became human at forty days for the male and eighty days for the female. A female resulted, said Aquinas, from defective seed or from the fact that conception took place when a damp wind was blowing. It followed that to abort a foetus in the early stages of pregnancy was wrong, since it was the destruction of a potential human being. It was not murder, since it was not the killing of an actual human being.
In the fifteenth century, moralists began to ask whether it was not possible in certain circumstances to get rid of the foetus without fault. For example, when it results from rape or incest or even of adultery, thus threatening the husband's rights and the marriage itself. The same dilemma arose in the case of a mother whose health would be endangered if she had to bring a foetus to full term. Was it not a moral duty to save a human life at the expense of a non_human if potentially human life? Some of the best theologians answered Yes.
Some went further. They said it was permissible to save a mother's life even after the foetus was humanized, that is, after the soul was infused. For what reason? Because the foetus' life had no absolute value; its value had to be weighed with others. What, then, in the classical case, when it came to a straight choice between saving the mother or the child? Was not the mother's life more valuable than the child's? Many hesitated. They said it was always wrong to kill an ensouled foetus directly. They were content to say it is permissible to kill it indirectly, that is, when medical treatment to help the mother incidentally and without intending it also killed or expelled the foetus The aim was solely to save the mother; the death of the foetus was sad by-product of that virtuous act.
History shows that popes, far from being able to solve these difficult moral dilemmas once and for all, were as mystified as anyone else They had no access to privileged information. They had to put forward arguments that were subject to rebuttal. For example, Gregory XIII (1572-85) said it was not homicide to kill an embryo of less than forty days since it was not human. Even after forty days, though ii was homicide, it was not as serious as killing a person already born, since it was not done in hatred or revenge. His successor, the tempestuous Sixtus V, who rewrote the Bible, disagreed entirely. In his Bull Effraenatum of 1588, he said all abortions for whatever reason were homicide and were penalized by excommunication reserved to the Holy See. Immediately after Sixtus died, Gregory XIV realized that, in the current state of theological opinion, Sixtus' view was too severe. In an almost unique decision, he said Sixtus' censures were to be treated as is he had never issued them. Popes can be precipitate. They never did have answers up their sleeve to ongoing moral problems. Moral judgments depend on facts and circumstances, all of which must be kept under review. The nineteenth-century papacy forgot this basic principle on every issue related to liberty. Twentieth-century pope, have forgotten it on every issue relating to sex. Paul VI was not alone it reissuing ancient teachings regardless of entirely changed circumstances and the findings of science. In particular, the morality of abortion depends on biological facts.
In 1621 a Roman doctor, Paulo Zacchia, suggested that there was no biological basis for Aristotle's view that ensoulment was delayed for some time after conception. Zacchia was the most honoured physician in the papal court, yet his view had no impact on papal theological teaching. The Vatican issued a pastoral directive permitting but not enforcing the baptism of foetuses less than forty days. As late as the eighteenth century, the church's greatest moral theologian, St Alfonsus Liguori, was still denying that the soul was infused at conception. Like Aquinas before him, he did not say direct abortion was right, but his view allowed a flexibility of approach to abortion, especially when the mother's life was in danger. After 1750, this flexibility disappeared. For the first time in centuries, the church started to return to the intransigent attitude of the Fathers. (p. 375)
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Stunster Donating Member (984 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #21
33. It is true that
the Church has not always regarded abortion as homicide.

However, it is also true that the Church *has* always opposed abortion. It is of course possible to be strongly morally opposed to something even though one does not consider it to be a species of homicide.

http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=3361

http://www.stnicholasla.com/abortion.htm
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RUDUing2 Donating Member (968 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. actually for the majority of the history of the church they did not oppose
abortion prior to *quickening*...or before it achieved human shape

The Apostolic Constitutions (circa 380 CE) allowed abortion if it was done early enough in pregnancy. But it condemned abortion if the fetus was of human shape. "Thou shalt not slay the child by causing abortion, nor kill that which is begotten. For everything that is shaped, and his received a soul from God, if slain, it shall be avenged, as being unjustly destroyed." 7:3

St. Augustine (354-430 CE) reversed centuries of Christian teaching in Western Europe, and returned to the Aristotelian concept of "delayed ensoulment." He wrote 7 that a human soul cannot live in an unformed body. Thus, early in pregnancy, an abortion is not murder because no soul is destroyed (or, more accurately, only a vegetable or animal soul is terminated). He wrote extensively on sexual matters, teaching that the original sin of Adam and Eve are passed to each successive generation through the pleasure generated during sexual intercourse. This passed into the church's canon law. Only abortion of a more fully developed "fetus animatus" (animated fetus) was punished as murder.

St. Jerome wrote in a letter to Aglasia: "The seed gradually takes shape in the uterus, and it does not count as killing until the individual elements have acquired their external appearance and their limbs" 8

Starting in the 7th century CE, a series of penitentials were written in the West. These listed an array of sins, with the penance that a person must observe as punishment for the sin. Certain "sins" which prevented conception had particularly heavy penalties. These included:

practicing a particularly ineffective form of birth control, coitus interruptus (withdrawal of the penis prior to ejaculation)
engaging in oral sex or anal sex
becoming sterile by artificial means, such as by consuming sterilizing poisons.

Abortion, on the other hand, required a less serious penance. Theodore, who organized the English church, assembled a penitential about 700 CE. Oral intercourse required from 7 years to a lifetime of penance; abortion required only 120 days.

Early in the 13th century, Pope Innocent III stated that the soul enters the body of the fetus at the time of "quickening" - when the woman first feels movement of the fetus. After ensoulment, abortion was equated with murder; before that time, it was a less serious sin, because it terminated only potential human life, not human life.

St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) also considered only the abortion of an "animated" fetus as murder
http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_hist.htm
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Stunster Donating Member (984 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. Uh-huh
Yes, it did not always regard it as murder, or as homicide. That's what I stated. But it was opposed to it anyway, and regarded it as sinful.

Can you quote me a Church text that clearly permits abortion, other than to save the life of the mother?
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RUDUing2 Donating Member (968 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. I have already done so...
reread my post...
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Stunster Donating Member (984 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #40
47. Sorry, still not getting it
OK, I'm missing the bit that says abortion is permitted.

Could you quote the part you have in mind?
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GumboYaYa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #7
14. I received my philosophy degree from a Jesuit University.
Edited on Thu Nov-18-04 11:50 AM by GumboYaYa
Most of my classmates were seminarians. To receive my degree, I spent four years reading and understanding most of the prominent historical and contemporary religious philosophers. Even within the Catholic Church there is substantial debate among scholars as to Jesus' position on abortion based on the actual words of Jesus.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
11. Leave the poor guy
out of this. Absolutely no way to know what Jesus thought about abortion or if he thought about it at all. It's such a wingnut game to play. Not to mention the obvious, that they're plenty of Jews who oppose abortion. Silly, silly you.
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Francine Frensky Donating Member (870 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. He is not a poor guy, he is God. And we have a record of what
he said, actually lots of different records, and yes, they are not 100% complete, and yes they have been translated, but they have also been studied by many, many people, and nobody can find any record of Jesus saying he believed life begins at conception.

Which is my point, if he's not on record ever saying this, then why is this all of a sudden the number one issue for christian people?

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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #18
31. We do not have a record of what he actually said.
We have various accounts of of his words, none of which were written by him, none of which were transcriptions of his words. Almost all of which were written by people who were actively involved in a religious movement that required teachings and texts for conversion.

We have no way of knowing with even an uneasy certaintity what he said.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #11
26. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Welcome to DU
and thanks for adding the remark about separation of church and state.
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TNOE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
16. If there is nothing new under the sun
which I don't believe there is - there were eunichs (homosexuals) mentioned in the Bible, Soddom & Gomorehha (orgys, etc.) - so it would be logical to assume that there were indeed women in back in bible days - through history - who may not have wanted for whatever reason to bring another child into the world. So it seems to me that if this was SO important to Jesus or God, it certainly would have been spelled out in the Bible. It isn't. Thou shall not kill - that's it. Kill a fly? Kill a mouse? War?

Also, I was recently told that the word Bible means literally 'Basic Instruction Before Leaving Earth". Anybody else ever hear that? If it's just basic instructions (which I believe by the way) - than WHAT are all these people up in arms about? I know the churches have really pushed this abortion issue - so much so that people are downright terrified to vote for anyone pro-choice.
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MsTryska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. Who's to say those verses weren't erased?
i mean obviously we know that there was soem wise-woman herbalism going on.....specifically i'm think of Ruth and the mandrake root.


who's to say there weren't chapters involving some root that helped abort, but the church cut it out.
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TNOE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Exactly
and I could swear I heard of this at one time, but can't remember now to save my life. I wish I still had that information.

You can bet if it was a LAW - it would be in there - another element for control of the masses. I mean in Leviticus - its a LAW that when a woman births a female child - a lamb must be slain at the alter - and I don't see any women still practising this ritual.
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kiki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #16
41. Number one, it's e-u-n-U-c-h-s,
And number two, a eunuch is a guy who's had his balls cut off. It's got nothing to do with sexuality - quite the opposite, in fact.
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TNOE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #41
48. Not necessarily
THE CHRISTIAN POINT OF VIEW


My concern however is with the comments I see from Christians. They stand
on the Bible and declare that the gay life style is sin etc. etc. Well the truth
is, if you are a follower of Jesus Christ, you will have to change your opinion
on the subject , because Jesus obviously had no problem with gays.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



WHAT IS A EUNUCH ?


To understand this, you must first consider the nature of the word Eunuch.
A Eunuch to most people is a castrated male. Eunuchs were very important
in Biblical times and in fact, many Eunuchs rose to great stature in ancient
social structures.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



THERE WERE TWO KINDS OF EUNUCHS


But here is the point that one must understand. There were two kinds
of Eunuchs described in ancient writings. There was the natural Eunuch and the mutilated
Eunuch.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



A NATURAL EUNUCH AND A MUTILATED EUNUCH


In ancient Roman Law it is laid out by the Roman jurist Ulpian in a document known as Lex Julia et Papia, Book 1 (Digest 50.16.128), that "Eunuch is a general designation: the term includes those who are eunuchs by nature, as well as those who are mutilated. In stature he places the natural eunuchs first. "

The mutilated Eunuch was designated as one diseased and the natural Eunuch was designated as one not diseased.


The law (D 28.2.6) says that someone who cannot easily procreate is nonetheless entitled to institute a posthumous heir, but it gives no concrete examples of such a man. In the same context, it states that the "eunuch" holds this right as well, while "castrated men" expressly do not. Ulpian makes a distinction between the non castrated Eunuch and the castrated Eunuch.


Whole eunuchs who were freemen, unlike mutilated eunuchs, were eligible for marriage and for adopting children (D 23.3.39.1, 28.2.6). In fact, anatomically whole eunuchs had all the rights and duties of ordinary men.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NATURAL EUNUCHS ARE WHAT WE REFER TO TODAY AS GAYS


The point of all this is that ancient law differentiated between natural Eunuchs and mutilated Eunuchs. Natural Eunuchs were homosexual men of that time and had all rights and duties of ordinary men.


From Hidden Meanings.com
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kiki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #48
52. Sorry...
Edited on Thu Nov-18-04 05:49 PM by kiki
Nowhere in there does it state that 'eunuch' means homosexual - you've said a bunch of stuff and then put EUNUCHS ARE WHAT WE NOW REFER TO AS GAYS at the bottom as if that made it true, when none of what you posted supports it. I'd put it to you that a 'natural eunuch' is a man born with abnormal balls, what we now call 'testicular feminizing syndrome', which, again, has nothing to do with sexuality.

If that's 'The Christian Point Of View', it's a load of... well, those things that eunuchs don't have. Sorry to sound rude, but your post has a faint whiff of that 'Jesus loves you really', slightly patronising homophobia that Christians do so well.
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TNOE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #52
56. Nope
not at all. Where on earth do you get that? What is posted is exactly the opposite of homophobia, and I should think it would be obvious from my other posts that I am pro-choice and ANTI-religion. What was said in my post I copied from the website HiddenMeanings.com - it was not me saying anything, it is this guy's opinion after studying the matter. The guy on HiddenMeanings is absolutely brillant in my opinion, he interprets what the Bible says in a completely different way, intelligently, in my opinion - and a way that makes perfect sense to me. He starts out chastizing so-called "christians" for hating gays - and telling them if they do - then they cannot be considered to be following Jesus' teachings.


http://hiddenmeanings.com/gaysJesus.htm
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kiki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. I think you need to read between his lines.
Edited on Thu Nov-18-04 06:20 PM by kiki
As far as I can see, he's associating homosexuality with disability. Whether 'natural' or 'mutilated', a eunuch IS a guy with no balls or with abnormal balls. Imagine you're a gay man for a second and see how that makes you feel.

looking through his site I see him associating eunuchs (ie, in his mind, homosexuals) with hermaphrodites, and if you can't see the problem with that, I guess we don't have much to talk about. The ONLY evidence he presents to directly state that 'eunuch' = 'homosexual' is the fact that he keeps saying it. His references are to effeminate men, sexless men, and polygendered men. Clearly that's what HE thinks homosexuals are, but I think he's wrong.

I mean seriously, is this the best Christianity can do to 'reach out' to homosexuals? "Hey, Jesus says that you 'ineffectual' 'half-males' are just fine with him!"

As for lesbians... fuggedaboudit...
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TNOE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. I really think you are reading him all wrong
but that's okay - he is the least prejudiced and open-minded person I've read who makes any of it make sense to me - to the extent it can be made sense of. Disability? I don't read it that way at all, my take is that he was saying that it was perfectly natural in Jesus' day and Jesus' had no problem with it, it was accepted whether they were "born" that way - or chose to be that way. I don't know - maybe this verse states it more clearly - he that is able to receive it, receive it. I certainly have no knowledge of polygendered men, etc., I only think that a man should be as free to choose and do as well as women, and there should be no judgement attached to it - people are supposed to be free "to be".


KJV Matthew 19:12
12. For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

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kiki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. Again,
Edited on Thu Nov-18-04 07:02 PM by kiki
your entire argument is about 'eunuchs', and the idea that the word 'eunuch' means 'homosexual', now or then, is entirely an assumption on your/his part. As for that Matthew quote, the bit about 'those who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of Heaven's sake' sounds more to me like it's referring to celebates. How can you possibly interpret that as meaning homosexuals - who the hell would 'become' gay for the sake of heaven?

I'd also like to point out the bit about the lustful emperor surrounded by "catamites" (boys kept for the purposes of sex). Can't really see how that's adding anything positive to the debate.



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TNOE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. Hey man, I got no idea
who the hell would become "gay" for the sake of heaven? I guess because somehere in the bible one of the disciples or somebody said it was best to be celebit (sp?) rather than to marry but if you must marry, do so. And, I really don't think men "become" gay.

I'm not trying to argue either. I think what this guy says is important - even if only one so-called "Christian" or "Born Again" thought about what he said for one minute and chose not to hate gays because of it. Many people obviously won't have the knowledge that you do. Sematics are not important to me - being free to be and being allowed IN AMERICA to be gay or straight or religious or athiest or choosing to terminate or continue a pregnancy is the issue and I'm sick to death of people enforcing their will or values or whatever upon mine. If we lived in a third world country without a Constitution and freedoms and a Declaration of Independence, than I could see where I might not be afforded these rights - and want to come to a place called America so I could. These rightwingers are not going to be happy until they've FORCED their beliefs down our throats and turned us all into some scene out of Pleasantville.

God, what is it with the earthlings in America - we killed the Indians, stole their land, gave them diseases and forced religion down their throats and insisted they give up their way of being and believing - because they were "engines" and "savages" - when they wre nothing of the sort - we MADE them that way when they were forced against the wall, and we just keep making the same mistakes over and over again. If we had adapted the Indian way of life - we'd be a much better people and nation because of it. So now we're in IRaq forcing our rightesousness as a nation down these people's throats with the barrel of a gun. I'm sick of the human race being so damned stupid and I got to think God is up there shaking his head at our complete and utter stupidity. Just wanted to get that out - for the lurking freepers.

Eunichs really wasn't the topic - but I'm still glad this discussion has led to this being on the first page of GD.
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Jack Schitt Donating Member (535 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
17. Is this a modus ponens argument...
or a modus tollens?

I forget. :shrug:

I would have to agree w/ you on all three of your arguments.
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Francine Frensky Donating Member (870 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. what are you saying?
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GumboYaYa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. He is talking about different types of arguments.
Modus Ponens is:

If A then B
A
Therefore B

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Nestea Donating Member (171 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
30. Not true.
Edited on Thu Nov-18-04 02:02 PM by Nestea
1) This is true

2) This is NOT true. While I'm a strong supporter of a woman's right to choose, that is just not true.

Every group of Judaism agrees unequivocally that when the life of the mother is at stake, or even threatened, the fetus not only CAN but MUST be aborted. Danger to life includes psychological, as well as physical hazard. Both Physical and mental health stand on the same level of concern. When an abortion is performed in such a case it is therapeutic, and therefore absolutely permissible.

None of the denominations of Judaism would allow indiscriminate abortion without justifiable case. Life was very highly valued due to the need for more children and more Jews.

Sorry, but I just busted your argument right open.

No need to go on to #3.

Stop trying to come up with arguments to use against right-wingers. They'll never understand, so don't bother.

But please don't post information about a certain religion's view on abortion if you don't even understand it.

If you were talking about Reform Judaism then you would be correct, but Reform Judaism is a lightened down version of it. I've been to Reformed services before and I've been to Conservative and Orthodox services.

They didn't even read from the Torah at the Reformed synagogue I went to, and they didn't do the Shacharit. It was just a 1 hour Friday service, once a week. No Saturday service.

It was very culturally Jewish. They had an Oneg Shabbat afterward and everyone talked about what was going on at their workplaces, etc.

But come on, that's not real Judaism.
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. Pot, meet Kettle
Edited on Thu Nov-18-04 02:07 PM by K-W
You just lectured someone about thier unfair treatment of a religion only to post "that's not real Judaism." about another groups religious beliefs.
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Nestea Donating Member (171 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. Well it's not
Edited on Thu Nov-18-04 02:33 PM by Nestea
Come on, that's like saying Kabbalah is Judaism.

I may not be Jewish, but diluting a religius service down to a social gatherings and an occasion for eating potato pancakes does not a religion make.

Reform Judaism is about as Jewish as Jews for Jesus are, which is to say not very.

And I never called it unfair, I called it disingenous.

Real Judaism is opposed to abortion except for health and life reasons.

It's disingenous to say otherwise.

Rabbis have taught on it for hundreds of years.
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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #30
43. You are wrong.
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Nestea Donating Member (171 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #43
49. No, I'm not.
My father happens to be Jewish, so I think I know a little about this.
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sonicdeathmonkey Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
34. Your reasoning is suspect...
"Silence is consent."

This applies to so many things. For instance, it's proof that Jesus was a pedophile because he didn't speak out against man-boy love.

He also killed and ate uncooked puppies because it doesn't say he didn't.

So I guess what I'm saying is, despite how any of us feel about it, that's just not a very well formed argument you've got there.

I apologize for a contentious first post.
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Kathryn7 Donating Member (90 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
37. Psalm 139:13-16
Christians believe the whole Bible to be the Word of God and Jesus Christ is the the Word of God. Therefore what the Bible says and teaches is what Jesus Christ says because he is God. This means that the God of the Old Testament is the same God of the New Testament. He is one. This is a favorite in support of life beginning at conception:

Psalm 139:13-16
For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.

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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. Wait - wait - I'm confused?
I thought Jesus was supposed to be the SON of G-d? How did he get promoted?
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Kathryn7 Donating Member (90 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. The Son of God is God. God is one__Father Son and Holy Spirit.
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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. How did that happen?
who was Jesus praying to - himself?
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Kathryn7 Donating Member (90 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. Yes, Jesus explains that the Father and he are one.
John 10:30
"I and the Father are one." This is what most Christians believe.
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GumboYaYa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #37
50. I think these verses from the Bible are actually more definitive
that the PSalm you cite:

"If a man fathers a hundred children and lives many years, however many they be, but his soul is not satisfied with good things, and he does not even have a proper burial, then I say, `Better the miscarriage than he, for it comes in futility and goes into obscurity; and its name is covered in obscurity. It never sees the sun and it never knows anything; it is better off than he.'"
Ecclesiastes 6:3-5

"And if men struggle and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."
Exodus 21:22-25

These verses fairly well illustrate that killing a fetus is not considered murder in the bible and the death of a fetus is not equivalent to the death of a living breathing person.
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Kathryn7 Donating Member (90 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #50
59. You're taking the quote out of context.
This is how things appear "under the sun". The preacher comes to a very different conclusion in the story.

The same can be said for the famous "eat, drink, and be merry" quote:

Ecclesiastes 8:15
So I commended pleasure, for there is nothing good for a man under the sun except to eat and to drink and to be merry, and this will stand by him in his toils throughout the days of his life which God has given him under the sun.




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GumboYaYa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-04 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #59
65. In the full context, Solomon makes the point that life
can be futile and difficult. He writes that if life is good then we should be thankful to God. When life is not good, it is better to have never been born. Hence, the quote I referenced earlier.

Without question the Scriptures quoted indicate a quality of life issue. That is why Solomon makes the point that it is sometimes better to end a pregnancy prematurely than to allow it to continue into a miserable life. This is even more clear in these verses:

"Then I looked again at all the acts of oppression which were being done under the sun. And behold I saw the tears of the oppressed and that they had no one to comfort them; and on the side of their oppressors was power, but they had no one to comfort them. So I congratulated the dead who are already dead more than the living who are still living. But better off than both of them is the one who has never existed, who has never seen the evil activity that is done under the sun."
Ecclesiastes 4:1-3


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TNOE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #37
51. Wasn't Jesus sent to do away with the old
and bring in the "new"? Thus the OLD Testaments and the NEW Testaments after his birth?

If anti-choice people are going to go "by the book" so to speak - then if the law is to sacrifice a lamb on the alter to God after the birth of their daughter, they best be doing that. Churches are going to have to get those alters installed and there's going to be a run on lambs.
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Kathryn7 Donating Member (90 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #51
61. "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets;
I did not come to abolish but to fulfill."


Matthew 5:17
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #37
54. I did not know that conception occurs
"in the depths of the earth"
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Merlin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
38. The term for that womb movement--in early US history--is "Quickening"
Re: the Roe V Wade decision, written by Justice Blackmun:

Blackmun noted that legislatures in England and the United States had made important distinctions between abortions performed early in a pregnancy and those performed later. For example, U.S. statutes from the early 19th century either allowed abortion or had few penalties for abortions performed before quickening—a term then used to describe a fetus that could be detected through its movement. Quickening normally occurred after the third month of pregnancy. Blackmun also pointed out that the abortion statutes adopted later in the 19th century were partly designed to protect the life of a pregnant woman because abortion itself was then considered a hazardous medical procedure.

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761595572/Roe_v_Wade.html#endads
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Slowhand16 Donating Member (66 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
55. very intresting...
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mother earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
62. I talk to Jesus on a daily basis.
He says he wants truth, truth in government, before the government can dictate to the people what is right and what is wrong. George has no clue about truth, his lies are cathing up with him. Everyday we see a gloomier picture of George's truth and it scares me & Jesus.
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kiki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. Ask him why he never calls me any more. n/t
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