Abortion by Baseball bat.... Why parental notification is a BAD idea

[Cheswick2.0]

RICHMOND TOWNSHIP -- Investigators said a pregnant 16-year-old girl allowed her boyfriend to beat her with a miniature baseball bat to cause a miscarriage, which may lead to criminal charges against the teens and one of their parents.

The girl estimated she was four months pregnant, said Macomb County Prosecutor-elect Eric Smith. Police said the boy's mother helped transport the fetus to her home and bury it in the backyard.

Smith said the beatings were "done over a period of three weeks. It was done in an effort to terminate the pregnancy."

-snip-

"This is not a black and white area of the law. It is a gray area," added Smith. "It is shocking the lengths these two teens went to terminate the pregnancy."Under Michigan law, people under 18 need one parent's permission to obtain a legal abortion.A minor also can receive one with a judge's permission to bypass that requirement.

http://www.detnews.com/2004/metro/0411/17/A01-7649.htm

[slackmaster]

1. This is being discussed in LBN

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=997935&mesg_id=997935&page=

[Mandate My Ass]

2. She's lucky she didn't hemorrhage

and die.

I don't know why anybody would be shocked by "the lengths these two teens went to terminate the pregnancy."

They obviously don't know anything about what happened regularly prior to RvW.

[Cheswick2.0]

3. yup

and teenagers are not going to go to court to ask a judge. I wouldn't go to court to ask a judge either. What a Nazi law that is.

[ohio_liberal]

19. What kid would even know

to go to a judge to ask? Good grief, this is so sad.

[okieinpain]

4. oh parental notification is not a bad idea. parents should know if

their kid is out having sex. there should be some consequence's for teens's screwing around, if there wasn't they would all be humping like rabbits.

[Cheswick2.0]

7. you are being sarcastic right?

[okieinpain]

34. no. why is it a good idea for teen's to be having sex. you don't

think that there is no price to pay for having sex without thought do you. hell adults have a hard time dealing with the consenquences of sex, can you imagine how hard it is for a child to deal with. come on now, let's be realistic.

[GiovanniC]

64. That's a GREAT Idea!

Being realistic, that is, not that dumb-fuck parental notification rule. So how about we be realistic for a moment?

Teenagers are going to have sex. It's gonna happen. That's realistic. It's hormonal. It's biological. It's wired into 'em. Not all kids are going to keep their raging libidos in check and stay a Bible's breadth apart, and thinking that they will is very UNREALISTIC.

We can urge, prod, lecture, plead, and demand that they refrain from having sex, but some teenagers are going to have sex. That's reality. And in light of that reality, pregnancies will happen. And kids will be terrified. And rather than tell their parents, they will risk injury or even death. So by the time it gets to this point, and it WILL get to this point no matter what you do, these kids who are bound to have an abortion will have two choices: get a safe abortion or get a dangerous abortion. And the more difficult you make safe abortions, the more likely they will get dangerous ones.

The harder you make safe abortions, the more at-risk you put some of these kids.

[Cheswick2.0]

71. wel then you are wrong

they are having sex and they are paying the consequences. You are exactly the kind of parent who shouldn't be notified since you seem to think punishment of the teen is a good solution for the fact that you failed to convince them not to wait or at least be responsible about birth control Parental notification laws are not to keep you informed about the sex life of your child. Why not just hire a private investigator?

[lastliberalintexas]

82. Well, yes

Teenagers should of course be punished for doing something so evil as to have SEX! Because of course, they wouldn't be out there "humping like rabbits" if they only knew that there were *consequences* for having sex. :eyes:

[Djinn]

106. what a load of crap

if your kid knows about contraception there are no "consequences" to sex - there are consequences to societies ridiculous glorification and/or fear of it - nothing else.

if you have any kind of a decent relationship with your kids, you will know, if you don't then perhaps you should have thought about it earlier.

btw - what consequences do you think there should be, maybe we could bring back "scarlet letters", flogging by a priest maybe? or the stocks where teenagers could be shackled and members of the puritan brigade could come along and scream "wicked whore spawn of the devil" or something similar at them??

[HuskerDem]

118. You don't think undergoing an abortion procedure qualifies as a

Consequence? What the hell! When was your last D&C?

Parental notification DOES NOT STOP KIDS FROM HAVING SEX. It stops them from killing themselves when pregnancy occurs.

[girl gone mad]

138. Funny thing about that..

I had sex when I was a teen, and somehow I managed to survive and grow up to become a healthy, happy adult.

Sex didn't ruin my life or leave me scarred and empty. I managed to have safe sex and avoid pregnancy, thanks to a smart boyfriend.

Teens should be encouraged to make responsible decisions, but extremist attitudes don't help.

[knight_of_the_star]

197. What are you smoking?

Are you saying that sexuality in general should be suppressed? Do you REALLY think that would be enforceable?

[JohnLocke]

214. Learn basic grammar, will you?

[eataTREE]

10. Ladies and gentlemen, the core of the "pro-life" argument

"We can't make abortion legal, safe, and easy to get, because we need to punish women for having sex."

Sheesh.

[George_S]

29. True, it's been that way since the eugenics era, than never died.

Pro-choicers need to take control of this and write legislation that heads it off at the pass. One example might be permitting abortion after the woman signs an affidavit saying she will force a mis-carriage or try some other dangerous means to abort without a doctor's help.

Who could object to that?

[okieinpain]

30. oh please you're not going to tell me it's okay for 12 - 18 year olds

to be out running around sleeping with everybody that they think are cute.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[okieinpain]

35. what's a troll, check the post count.

[okieinpain]

52. man, I wish I could see some of these deleted messages.

[Quill Pen]

39. If you don't or can't trust your own children...

...then you've got bigger problems than the government can fix by requiring you to be notified before your daughter has an abortion.

If kids really want to have sex, they'll find a way. The best you can do is educate them about the act and the consequences and ensure protection and safe places are available. If they confide in you about their sex lives or ask you questions, consider yourself fortunate.

As a former raging nerd, who hung out with all the other hopeless raging nerds in junior high and high school, I can tell you with confidence that not all the kids are out there "running around and screwing like bunnies" or "sleeping with everybody that they think are cute."

Quite a few kids have totally different priorities.

[okieinpain]

44. how long ago was that. because all of the kids that are in my world

are screwing like bunnies. my youngest son swears that he hasn't had sex, but my wife came home early one day, and saw a pair of panties in the bath room that did not belong to her.

parental notification is not a big deal, us arguing against it is like, repugs arguing for gay marriage ban. just silly.

[Quill Pen]

96. Okay, I confess...

...it was back in the late '80's.

I guess I'm just a post-hippie GenXer, but I don't get what's so horrible about your son having sex, if that is, in fact, the case.

Is he hurting/forcing someone? Is he not using a condom? Is he doing this to prove something to others? Is there any way you could stop him? If the answer to all these questions is "no," my advice (not that you asked) would be to state your position to him, give him the facts, stuff a Costco-sized vat of condoms in his Christmas stocking this year, and then allow him to decide what he'll do. Because he will anyway. Parental rage is not a reliable promoter of abstinence, and hasn't been since the caveman days.

But if you're still pissed off that he's doing this, you could always lob the reserved "I'm disappointed in you; I expected better" line that my dad used. Worked consistently. Always made us want to crawl under a rock.

[Djinn]

108. for me it was ten years ago

and it is exactly the same now - some "kids" have sex most actually aren't. Finding a pair of undies doesn't mean your child was screwing, and if he was which "consequences" do you plan on instituting?

Do you think if maybe you didn't have such a puritanical attitude your child would be more comfortable talking to you about sex? What calamity would transpire if your son was getting some anyway? is the sky going to fall in, will he be banished to hell??

My parents were very open and always made as aware that if we decided that was what we wanted to do they'd rather it was in their house we're we'd be safe than elsewhere (big house my bedroom was a LONG way from theirs) yet strangely I wasn't out humping everyone I thought was cute, or everyone that propositioned me - I see no moral problem with that if I HAD been but I was actually a legal adult before I had sex for the first time, and because I knew about STD's and contraception I didn't put myself at risk either.

[cynatnite]

158. My son's only five right now, but

I hope we can educate him as well as we have our daughters. I hope we can treat him to respect women and have enough care for them and himself not to rush into it.

But then I hear all the stories about how boys walk around with raging hard-ons starting around 12 or 13. A few of the boys I dated in high school didn't know the meaning of keeping their hands to themselves. It's a wonder I didn't see boys rubbing against the lockers with the things I've heard. LOL

I do know that if he is going to have sex, (I'm almost positive one day he will) I hope he thinks enough to use a condom. :eyes:

[Djinn]

150. how on earth do you know that

"all of the kids that are in my world are screwing like bunnies"

are you peering in their bedroom windows?? sorry but that statement is creepy as hell

[St. Jarvitude]

172. Speaking as a high school student...

I'm not going around "screwing like bunnies" or whatnot. In fact, nearly everyone I know who's my age and has a sex life (surely less people than you think) is doing so monogamously. There are a few people who do indeed "fuck like bunnies", but the proportion is no different to that of the adults who go around "fucking like bunnies".

You seem to have a very misguided view of my generation. Are there any other misunderstandings you'd like me to clear up with you? :)

[knight_of_the_star]

200. Sorry buddy

I just got out of High School two years ago. Girls that were sleeping around got a bad rep for it (that I don't agree with but anyway) and were stigmatized as "sluts" and "whores", and I live in Southern California! There was a lot MORE talk about "preserving one's virginity" than about screwing like rabbits.

But then again, it doesn't sound like you were a kid yourself ever anyway and you don't talk to your son, so it doesn't surprise me that your perspective is a little warped.

Oh yes, and arguing against it is just silly?

Are you familiar with the process of erosion?

It takes time, but it works in the end.

Think of these steps by the GOP as a political form of erosion.

[HuskerDem]

122. Don't think you LISTENED TO A FUCKING WORD did you ?????????????????????

Nobody said it was a great idea, but I think you probably realize that. YOU are avoiding REALITY, which is typical of right-wing fascists who want to subjugate females.

Nobody was promoting 12 year old whore houses, or any other kind of promiscuity and it's just plain disingenuous of you to suggest otherwise. Every post of yours I read on this thread made me believe I had found the most ignorant statement on DU of the day. But it seems like you keep besting yourself.

[cushla_machree]

159. haha well said

Its right wing thinking she has.

Take away parental consent, and suddenly 12 year olds will have a free for all sex romp.

Legalized abortion leads to more sex because they know they don't have to deal with the consequences

passing out condoms makes teens have sex.

[FizzFuzz]

148. and what do you think about a girl raped, by a gang, or a date or a

relative? A father maybe--you want to force that girl to have to then go to those same perpetrators to get permission for help? Do you think that girl should be forced to face more complications than she already has? You would be surprised how many sick family or social situations girls live in, and how frequently they are victimized. Yet you want to add to that victimization.

I hate your kind.

[cushla_machree]

155. eh?

What does that have to do with parental notification?

Teenagers have sex, deal with it. 12 year old girls having sex with 'everybody that they think are cute' kinda reflects on the parents, or lack thereof.

Were i to have a teenage daughter, i would like to think that if she got in trouble she would come to me. But not all girls have healthy relationships with their parents. And i would rather not see scared young girls getting hit with baseball bats. They are clearly old enough to have sex and get pregnant. They are old enough to become pregnant, and be given the responsibility of raising a child, or the decision to give it up to adoption. They are old enough to deal with the consequences, and if that is abortion, then well its their decision.

[knight_of_the_star]

199. Sorry, dude, but news flash for ya!

It HAPPENS!

Teens are WIRED that way, you really think that your puritanical dissapproval will change that?

And I hate to break it to you, but abstinence-only sex-ed in high school has been proven to be the LEAST effective means of sex-ed, since teens who go through those programs are MUCH more likely NOT to use protection when they do it because they don't KNOW about it, thus higher rates of teen pregnancy, and are more likely to contract STDs because they are unaware of the need for protection.

IT DOESN'T WORK!!!

GET OVER IT!!!

WELCOME TO THE 21ST CENTURY!!!

[okieinpain]

36. were not talking about women, we're talking about teens.

are you saying that you really are not interested in knowing if your child is having sex.

[Cheswick2.0]

72. Hire a private Dick

and have your kids followed. Don't make your failure as a parent the reason for forcing young women into asking for permission to control her own welfare.

[okieinpain]

105. I don't have a problem with the law. I don't understand why you do

if you don't care what you child is doing, just ignore the call or letter. some people would like to know what their child is doing. what's hard about that.

[Cheswick2.0]

205. great hire a private detective and find out

don't make government your agent thereby punishing children who have good reason not to notify their parents. You want the government to do your job as a parent and you don't care who else gets hurt. Talk about selfish.

[Djinn]

110. ask them

if they don't tell you the truth they don't trust you - start asking why that is

[St. Jarvitude]

173. It's all about the trust

Requiring parental notification is silly, because it is required in spite of some very dangerous (albeit somewhat uncommon) situations - extremist anti-choice parents, abusive parents, cases of incest, etc. Rather than being required in spite of these, it should be optional (poor word to use, I suppose) because of them. The inherent danger in requiring a minor to report their pregnancy to their parents - whether the danger of taking the pregnancy to term or the danger of actually notifying abusive parents and requiring their consent - is enormous.

Of course, there are some very good parents out there who have educated their children about sex, birth control, and pregnancy. Some may have even told their children that if - God forbid - they or their partner were to have an unwanted pregnancy, they are welcome to bring it to the parents for guidance, help finding a adoptive parents (if that is their choice) or help finding a safe, legal abortion clinic (if that is their choice). The key is to make sure that the level of trust in the parent-child relationship is strong enough to ensure that if a pregnancy were to occur, the parents would be notified by their child rather than by authorities at the abortion clinic.

I know that I could go to my parents if I made a girl pregnant, and I know that both my mother and my father would support her and me and help us carry through whatever choice we made. That's not to say that either of them wants us to "screw like bunnies", as a certain poster might have you believe my parents think :eyes:

[Djinn]

209. but you are screwing like a bunny surely

after all - ALL teenagers aer aren't they?? :evilgrin: When I was a teenager and it wasn't THAT long ago most people weren't screwing at all and those that were did so in the context of long term relationships not drunken one night stands - it's like the "kids on drugs" thing, most actually aren't, but a bit of moral panic never goes out of style!

[HuskerDem]

123. You are defending a law that gets kids killed

I find that repugnant, and indefensible.

Until, and ONLY until you grow a uterus and get pregnant would I even THINK about giving an OUNCE of credibility to a single word you say. Oh, and in this particular case, you better turn into a 16 year old girl too, while you're at it.

Till then, your comments amount to shit.

[Left Is Write]

142. Whether or not *I* know *my* child is having sex is not the point.

Because I will do my level best to make sure she is kept safe, whether she is having sex or not.

Other parents will not, and that is why a parental notification law is a bad idea.

Why don't you go tell the fifteen-year-old girl who is pregnant by her stepfather that she has to ask her rapist's permission to get an abortion?

Or how about the sixteen-year-old who fears her father or mother will beat or even kill her if they find out she is pregnant?

The story in the original post is proof enough that kids are willing to risk their LIVES to avoid telling their parents they are pregnant.

Tell me again why a parental notification law is a GOOD thing.

[progmom]

12. ha ha ha...ha?

:shrug:

[Quill Pen]

37. Using the law to force intimacy between parents and children

If your kid isn't telling you that he/she's sexually active, maybe there's a good reason.

Some parents become violent with their daughters when they find out the kids have been sexually active or they're knocked up.

There are already plenty of brutal consequences out there for unprotected sex, and pregnancy's just one of them. "Consequences" have been a part of human sex since Og first dragged Thagla into his cave. There's no need to manufacture consequences -- vindictive "notification" laws just to flog kids for not feeling comfortable confiding in you about their sex lives.

They're going to have sex lives whether you approve or not. They've got the equipment, and we might as well assume they'll use it without consulting us. We use ours without consulting them, after all.

[okieinpain]

50. so okay, you don't care if you're kid is having sex. some parents do

parental notification is not going to hurt anything. if the kid is clever enough to go and get an abortion. I'm pretty sure they are smart enough to call the police if the parent hits them. I haven't seen any laws that the parent can abuse the child if child is haveing sex.

[CornField]

57. Parental notification doesn't hurt anything?

With all due respect, it's time for you to move out of Beaver Cleaver land and join us all in reality.

A daughter, raped by her father, should have to ask him if it okay to have an abortion?

A young girl should have to ask permission from her anti-choice parents? Why not just hand her a bus ticket and drop her off at the station so she can start her life as a runaway?

Perhaps in an ideal world, there would be a big coming together. Members of the family would sit and quietly (or even loudly) discuss the hows, whys and whens of everything. Unfortunately, we do not live in an ideal world.

[okieinpain]

61. hey there problems with it, and without it. you're not going to just

tell me that it's okay for a teen to go out have sex, and if they happen to get pregnant just run their ass down to the clinic and get an abortion are you. I mean you have to see that's a problem right.

and on the father/daughter deal, I can't even think of how many different ways that argument is bullshit.

[Cheswick2.0]

76. Come on think

Give us just one way in which the father daughter argument is bullshit.

[okieinpain]

100. well tell me just how many fathers do you know that are sleeping

with their daughters.

[Iris]

131. I can tell you about a 13 year old who sleeps in the woods at night

to avoid her mother's boyfriend.

Will that do?

[FizzFuzz]

153. my best friend was raped repeatedly by her father, and so were all her

sisters. The father was a succesful psychiatrist. Ten kids on the family. Mother too busy to know. My friend was raped from age 9-13 or so.

I myself was never raped but I was beaten nightly for transgressions I never did but that my mother imagined. I wouldn't have gone to her with a paper cut. Some parents are not to be trusted.

OK? Satisfied? You goddamed self-righteous blind idiot. I feel sorry for your family.

[Cheswick2.0]

207. millions... I only know a few personally

[geniph]

213. My stepfather raped me when I was 11

you want to pull any other factoids about subjects you clearly have no personal experience with out of your ass now?

[Djinn]

112. just say it

you think abortion is evil and no-one should have sex.

Do you honestly beleive teenagers aern't raped by fathers or other guardians - are you really that ignorant?

Do you really think there aren't parents out there that wouldn't beat (and in some cases kill) their teenager for getting pregnant - a bit of research here would be good

Do you really think there aren't "pro-life" parents out there who would force a teenaged girl to give birth to a child - do you really think that forcing someone to give birth like breeding stock is acceptable in this day and age.

As for your question - no it actually isn't a problem if teenagers have sex and no it isn't a problem if they have an abortion, it's preferable that they have access to contraception and the ones with decent relationships with their parents DO.

It's been shown time and time again that the highest rates of teen pregnancy occur in the most puritanical homes - on a larger scale the proportion of teen pregnancies in the US where the fundies have fought against sex-ed all the way and freak when they see a boob on TV is much much higher than in countries with a more natural attitude to sex and better sex-ed like Australia and Scandinavian countries...gee wonder why that is.

[knight_of_the_star]

206. That is a groundless refutation

You would be surprised how often the father/daughter thing happens.

[ballcap1776]

58. Oh, I'll care and I'll counsel my child from an early age not to

...but I have no illusions that she will magically abstain just because we have a good relationship or because it's what "good girls do." It's naive to believe, as well, that my child will come directly to me if she has disobeyed my wishes and become pregnant.

I'd hate to see her hemorrhage and die, or run away on the back of a Harley because she made a mistake and sees no other way out.

[okieinpain]

59. I hear you. but the sad part is kids will do that. you can be as open

as the blue skys, but kids have a funny way of doing things.

[lastliberalintexas]

83. And parental notification laws

DO NOT STOP KIDS FROM HAVING SEX!!!! There was a parental notification law in place for goodness sake! This instance is a prime example of just how ineffective they actually are at preventing sexual relations, pregnancies and abortions among teenagers.

[okieinpain]

102. so you're saying fuck it, let the kids do what they want. sex, drugs

abortions, etc. because they are going to do it any way. you've got to be kidding.

[Djinn]

114. how do you plan on stopping them,

you clearly have an really weird view that people should eb punished for havign sex, presumably one you've passed on to your kids - yet as you say you're sure your son is sexually active...

what do you suggest - chastity belts perhaps.

[girl gone mad]

145. I had a friend in HS whose parents kicked her out..

because they found out she had gotten an abortion - tough love and all that. She ended up addicted to drugs, living with a much older man and last time I saw her she looked pretty messed up, so I don't think she ever recovered.

Parental notification seems like a bad idea to me, for so many reasons.

[One_Life_To_Give]

191. You say it like it's a bad thing?

If her parents kicked her out for no other reason than getting an abortion. She is probably better off, for having severed ties with them.

OTOH - Can we use that bat in the OP to beat some sense into Mom and Dad?

[MissB]

62. Parental notification is not going to hurt anything

Where *is* that rolling on the floor laughing smilie?

Except for a few hits with a baseball bat, it probably didn't hurt her much at all.

Parental notification laws are crap.

[okieinpain]

66. oh there is nothing wrong with the law. everybody around here is

freaking out and we don't even know if they did this because of the law. kids are stupid, here let me turn up the volume a little. KIDS ARE STUPID, that's why these laws are good. you just can't let a kid run around doing shit on their own, that's why parents are a good thing.

I mean shit animals in the wild watch out for their babies.

[catzies]

70. Stupidity isn't illegal. And that doesn't make a law "good" or bad"

You can't legislate morality or intelligence.

We're not the ones who are freaking out. We're reality-based. ;)

[okieinpain]

99. stupidity is illegal if it harms or infringes on someone else. if a

child's parents is against having sex, I would advise them to either move out, or not have sex. you can't have it both ways, you can depend on someone to provide you with shelter and food, and then say screw you I'm going to do what I want.

if you want to do something your parents are against. move out have all the sex you want. if you're afraid to move out then at least abide by their rules until you can get your shit together, then you can do what you want.

[Iris]

124. suppose the child's parent wants to have sex with her (or him, but at

least the "him" wouldn't end up pregnant)

Or are you going to tell me that's how we get thorougbreds?

[Scout]

75. so which is it?

this post of yours above "KIDS ARE STUPID"

or

your post #50: "if the kid is clever enough " "I'm pretty sure they are smart enough "

[Cheswick2.0]

77. apparently parents are stupid too

[Mandate My Ass]

97. Okie likes to have it both ways

just like in the DP debate earlier today in LBN. If minorities are accused of committing a capital crime, they should just accept the racially biased justice system in this country and go to their doom without complaint. But if a white person commits a capital crime against a minority, they should only be able to express dissatisfaction against their oppressor, but not be given the opportunity to be granted redress.

[okieinpain]

98. they are stupid enough to get in trouble. come on be honest, you

guy's know kids do stupid shit all the time. you were one once, are you going to tell me you've never done something that when you look back on it. you don't say "man that was stupid".

[JohnLocke]

215. Stupididy is not a crime. You're free to go (nt).

[MsTryska]

67. How does accepting that kids are sexual, and that

IT'S A PARENTS JOB TO DISCUSS SEXUALITY WITH THEIR CHILDREN translate into "not caring whether kids have sex"?


Where are the parents in all this?

why should we all have to be legislated because you aren't willing to control your own damn kids?

[Quill Pen]

93. Now there's a concept

>>>why should we all have to be legislated because you aren't willing to control your own damn kids?<<<

Dang if I had a nickel for every time I thought that...well, I wouldn't be spending so much time on the Internet, that's for sure, because it would cut into my visits to the Riviera. ;-)

[MsTryska]

189. The irony is...

the same people wailing for legislation like this are the same people wailing about the government in their wallets.

so confusing.

[Cheswick2.0]

73. I am certain you are doing some sort of performance theater thing here

I am not finding it all that artistic.

[knight_of_the_star]

204. Do you know how bad Family Court is?

Do you know how many of those cases get dropped BECAUSE of the stupid intricacies of such? You don't seemed to be tuned into the same reality we all are.

[tewl]

140. are you just trying to stir things up??

Sheesh man, mama always told me not to strike the hornets nest with a stick.

[Trumanway]

5. Yeah, right....

we should sabotage every parent and family in America to prove that two stupid teenagers can skate on responsibility. Let's lower the age of consent to six and solve ALL these problems in one stroke of genius. We would have no need of parental notification.

Edit: spellink

[Cheswick2.0]

8. nonsense

If your kids are having sex you have already lost control. Parental notification law won't change that. This girl could have died and now everyones life is ruined because of a privacy invasive law that should never have been passed.

[Mandate My Ass]

9. Control

The one word that defines and sums up this whole issue.

[Trumanway]

17. First, I said nothing about control,...

and there are a lot of situations where I have no control, and having no control does not mean that I have not acted properly.

Children like adults are individuals, and some will not be limited or controlled no matter how properly that control is created and used. Punishing all parents because one may or may not have acted properly is becoming the American way. That is the "control" that you speak of.

Parents that counsel Their daughter that Midol or similar medications may relieve the discomfort of her monthly cycle and supply her with same are criminals along with their daughter when she is at school. However the school can do the same and throw in an abortion in secret and it's hunky dory. Kids can be enticed to manipulate the system for what they (mistakenly) believe to be their own benefit. With a system like this parents are worthless, killing notification laws is just like sticking a knife in the back of a bound and gagged prisoner. Congratulations

[Cheswick2.0]

22. Congratulation for the most irrational post of the day

Schools are doing abortions? Midol is a controlled substance? Link?

Of course you are talking about control WTF else would you call it? Your daughter doesn't feel she can tell you she is pregnant. Because the law says she must she allows her boyfriend to beat her with a bat instead. You must be some scary mofo.

With a parent that scary there is no way she should be forced to go to you.

You have it exactly backwards, it is parental notification laws that are invasive in family life not the lack of them.

[One_Life_To_Give]

28. Sometimes their fears are pure imagination

Sometimes what kids need most is someone to listen tothem and coach them. The lengths they will go to cover a triviality is amazing to me as an adult.

I am not surprissed that teens are afraid to tell parents about pregnancies. It's normal to not want to disappoint your parents. But teens are also young enough to beleive that the abortion is over when you leave the clinic. Parents know it just marks the next phase in the healing process.

[Trumanway]

42. I agree,

I would offer my underage daughter complete support no matter what she chose: marriage (I'd support her and husband), single mother, at home till 18 her own place till grandchild goes to school, then babysit; abortion, yup; she would make the final decision after full understanding of physical and emotional consequences of ALL options. Financial no worries, I pay. And love always.

I just want to know so I can offer.

[HuskerDem]

132. Wel goodie goodie goodie for you! Here's your cookie!

Meanwhile the alchoholic ass-hat down the street beats the shit out of his daughter when he finds out and throws her out of the house with half a suitcase and a $50 dollar bill.

I bet she's REALLY GLAD that YOU are such a great parent and got to offer all those wonderful options to your kid.

Parental notification is bullshit. If you didn't forge a close enough relationship with your kid before the pregnancy - that's YOUR FAULT.

[Cheswick2.0]

78. that is just not the reality

I know these kids. I have counseled them. Sorry, but most tell, those who do not have very good reasons.

[Djinn]

116. no you don't know that

"Parents know it just marks the next phase in the healing"

you know plenty of women (though preferring not to have gotten preggars in the first place) have no physical or mental healing to do after an abortion. Its the anti-choice fuckwads that have propagated the myth that all women who have termination suffer anguish over it, plenty say "phew glad that's over going to make sure I use 3 forms of contraception now" and that's it. Don't assume YOUR feelings on this are shared by women everywhere.

Oh and btw a legal abortion has less physical side effects than childbirth.

[Trumanway]

38. I disagree with your generalized assessment of parents...

And I would consider parents that you describe (some scary mofo) to be a tiny minority. I would note that laws like this are designed to protect children. As a society, we have noticed that children are not experienced enough to make unilateral choices for themselves. (Bear with me) These laws motivate them to get council that in the vast majority of case is beneficial to them. Should we whack the large majority of children and parents who can benefit to avoid the inconvenience of of a few in implementing the parts of the law that benefit them as well?

I am sorry you think I'm so scary.

[Modem Butterfly]

63. I had a great relationship with my parents. We were very close

But I never in a million years would have told them if I'd gotten pregnant in high school or college. Uh-huh, no way. My mother would have forced me to have the baby- she's a hard-core anti-choicer. My father told me once that if I ever did get pregnant, that I could come to him and we would "take care of it" together without my mother knowing. But you know what? I still never would have told him either.

Hell, at the age of 27 I had a ruptured ectopic pregnancy that damn near killed me. My parents think my appendix burst. NO WAY WOULD I EVER TELL THEM. EVER.

[Cheswick2.0]

80. wll I am sorry but you are uninformed

I have the experience to tell you that you are wrong. Work in a womans health clinic for a year and get back to me.

[JaneDoughnut]

43. It is here.

All OTC meds are considered controlled substances in Shreveport. Last year we had a girl expelled for carrying Advil in her purse at school. No shit.

I have one question regarding the notification laws. Does a 16-year-old need parental consent for other medical procedures of similar seriousness? If so, it's probably reasonable to require the parents' involvement for an abortion as well. It can be a dangerous procedure.

But we can't forget that abortion is usually an act of desperation, and someone who thinks they need one will go to great lengths to get one. There's not much you can legislate away in that regard.

[HuskerDem]

136. First of all that's WHY you make sure abortions remain a SAFE and LEGAL

option for the kids. Abortions are different from other "similar" procedures and you know it. Forcing birth on a female of any age is barbaric.

Yes, abortion is often an act of desperation, too bad this girl couldn't get one without A BASEBALL BAT. How long do you think this poor girl cried? How many times did he have to hit her with that bat? Does she still believe that he loves her? Does he? What does her poor bruised body look like and how hard is it to simply sleep without pain?

All because she couldn't get a simple abortion.

[okieinpain]

51. nope the parent doesn't have to be mean or scary. kids are just

stupid, they will do some of the dumbest shit just so that they don't have to hear "I told you so".

I've got 4 of them, and mine are some of the coolest on the planet. but they still do dumb shit. and there is not a one of you on this site, or any other that can tell me your kid is any better.

[Cheswick2.0]

81. It isn't all about you Okie

We are talking about laws that effect all teens not just yours and you are incredibly naive about this issue.

[okieinpain]

103. naive how. enlighten me. Please tell me what I'm naive about.

the alternative to no parental involvment is kids doing what they want. yes the child is going to be scared to tell their parent, they should be. parents are not there to be friends, or buddys. they are there to make guide and mentor. if you don't want to be notified about your child seeking a medicial procedure. fine just ignore the letter or phone call when you get it. some of us, want to know what the hell is going on.

now what's so hard about that.

[Iris]

125. what's so bad about that is not all parents have the best interests of

their children at heart.

You may be able to chalk off stupid stuff you did when you were young as just stupid stuff, but to some kids making even minor mistakes can cause them a lot of problems. In many families, coming home pregnant is enough to get you kicked out of the house.

[KTM]

164. Take off the glasses Blanche

My cousin was chased through his house with an axe by his stepfather, who then chased him around the freeways for hours, over a relationship tussle.. the stepfather is a far right-wing Operation Rescue type. When his under-age daughter thought she was preggers, she would not have DARED tell him, or seek his advice, and came to me - not to ANYONE in her family.

Its not a matter of whether we dont want to know, as you keep saying, a matter of throwing away the letter. It is the fact that a great many small-minded people in our nation WOULD get the notification, and would respond like this. With axes. With hate. With NO concern over the best interest of the "sinner" before them.

[HuskerDem]

137. Considering how many times you've called your kids stupid

I'm sure mine must be smarter.

[MsTryska]

69. You know...this is the inherent disconnect

I have with conservatives...they're suppsoed to be the party of less governmental regulation of everything, but apparently, that doesn't apply to regulation of human beings. when humans are involved, then the government needs to be all up in that. i jsut don't get the logic.

[Scout]

79. not all humans ... women...

especially the pregnant ones

[MsTryska]

190. well don't forget the gays

and their damn homosexual agenda. *lol*

[Djinn]

115. speaking of meds

which ones are you on & can I have some?

[CAcyclist]

11. So forcing a baby to have a baby is somehow better?

Maybe I am misunderstanding you, but these parental consent laws are stupid. Most kids tell their parents anyway and the ones who don't are not going to just because of a stupid law. They are going to take matters into their own hands and do stupid things like this.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

13. If a kid CAN'T tell their parent, that parent sabotaged their relationship

themselves. Parents need to take responsibility for the quality of communication they have with their teens. If they never communicated and discussed rubbers and birth control in a forthright manner, then what the fuck do they expect?

Frankly, the irony is this girl is a minor when it comes to notification, but how much money do you want to bet the DA attempts to try her as an adult now?

[Trumanway]

20. No bet, don't know the prosecutor...

see my #17.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

21. Please stop and think about what you just said

Yes a kid may be manipulated by another institution just as well...but they can also be MANIPULATED by their parents...in fact, I think they have the market cornered on manipualting their children.

If a parent has such poor communication with their own daughter that she FEARS telling them she is pregnant...who is the REAL victim? I say the daughter is.

[Trumanway]

31. Ok, I'll stop and think...

now that that's done, I'll tell you what I think: You are very sincere in your desire to protect children and render the safest conditions for them to grow in.

Your point of the young girl being a victim of dangerous parent(s) is valid and I will stipulate it as fact for purposes of conversation.

One young lady, one time. I don't believe that this is an epidemic. One poster said (paraphrasing) How many more of these are we going to hear about?

I think we will hear about them if they happen, much like we heard about this. How many have we already heard about? Seems not very many, certainly not an epidemic. Seems many parents can be informed without tragedy, probably most. Most will make a positive contribution to their daughter's situation. A notification law will allow more of these good parents to help their that was mistakenly too scared to seek them out.

Contrary to the way this report is presented MOST PARENTS ARE GOOD PARENTS, not perfect but good. Should the vast majority of parents be punished and cut off from their children because of a tiny minority of bad ones? If this should be legal policy for parents, where else in law should we implement this principle?

{No sarcasm in this post}

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

40. If most parents are good parents, then by your same logic, they really

wouldn't need to worry about a law like this because they are so good their daughter would tell them right?

So to turn your logic in on you (and really, no sarcasm intended) why create a situation such as this wherein a young woman CAN'T tell her parents since those other parents are such good open communicative parents that their children can communicate with them?

By contrast, these notification laws seem to oppress the weakest members of society...adolescent young women who come from violent households.

BTW...I am not willing to make the leap of faith that "most parents are good parents" and that that should suffice and be a one size fits all mantra for policy. The parents of the Columbine shooters were, for all intents and purposes, good parents...so what?

[Trumanway]

45. The way I see things...

you are correct, the law would seldom be needed and the use of it would be rare. But this would make it a bad law?

Not being sarcastic or wiseacre here but the laws against cannibalism are rarely needed, most people happily comply. Thank goodness.

And your point about the law affecting the weakest and most vulnerable is very well taken.

A small group could be injured by the law with uncaring judges, as an equally small group could benefit when there was no reason to fear their parents. (According to the way I see the groupings of these young women.)

I can't make a perfect law, but I think this will do more good than harm.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

48. Can you conclusively demonstrate it did more harm before?

Given the assertion you just made, I'd like to see evidence of more harm than good with the way it was prior to parental notification laws.
Given the subject that opened this thread, i.e. a woman having her fetus get beaten out of her because of notification laws...I'd suggest you're playing atch up right about now in demonstrating that fact.

[Trumanway]

54. Evidence?

Due to privacy issues it would be more difficult to track occasions where PN laws had a happy family informed result. Happy people are not news, and happy unwed young women are probably protected by those same privacy laws from public disclosure. As well the family may well wish to remain private, and they would be the only ones privy to the results of notification if it turned out happy for the young lady.

Baseball bats though, do make news and statistics.

No, I can't supply empirical evidence.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

74. LOL..so you're going to blame the privacy laws since you can't prove your

point...but when confronted with real evidence as the article above demonstrates, you'l be happy to plug your ears and go "la la la I can't hear you"

[okieinpain]

107. where in the article does it say the kids did what they did because

of the law. the article is just informing that the law exists in that state.

[okieinpain]

104. I didn't see anything in the article that says the kids because of the

law.

[muse]

53. You should be a teacher in a public school and see how prevalent

this is where girls don't have parental support. There is a real, tough world out there where girls will be beaten, thrown out of their house, turned out in the street, were impregnated by their father or other male relative . . . I've seen it all. It's sad, pathetic and scary and nothing like anything you are familiar with. It's common in every public high school in every community in this country. Parental notification laws are misinformed, naive and harmful to young women. They need to be able to take their reproductive rights in their own hands.

[okieinpain]

109. I've seen it all too. and the law is a good one. there are a lot more

girls going around having sex because they are so-called in love. then there are one's who have been raped by their fathers or male relatives.

[Bridget Burke]

198. All these young folks having sex all over the place....

Feeling a bit of envy?

[Cheswick2.0]

23. ah #17

The post where you admit you want the state to intervene in your family life and remove your daughters civil rights to control her own body.

Here is the facts (and I know from experience having worked in a womans clinic) children that young who are pregnant are encouraged to tell a parent even where there are no such laws. Most girls do tell a parent, Grandmother or Aunt. When they do not there is a good reason why. Going to a judge won't change that. Though some judges may make a girls life hell by refusing her the right to the abortion.

A child who wants to remain pregnant will simply ignore the pregnancy until it is too late to perform an abortion. So parents who might push that option are already helpless. Why should parents who are likely to refuse the abortion have more power? No matter what, even at 16, a woman has the right to control her own body, future and well being.

[One_Life_To_Give]

46. Questions

Actually at 16 she needs a parent or guardian to sign off on a appendectomy(prior to rupture). How is that having control of her own body.

But I digress. This girl needs to be talking to a trusted adult somewhere. A relative would be nice, but a teacher or even the people at the clinic. Teens I have worked with avoid giving parents bad news because they imagine it to be worse than it is.

otoh Is a teen girl really prepared to alone deal with all the emotional issues that accompany this choice?

[Cheswick2.0]

84. Actually an appendectomy is not a pregnancy

Once she is pregnant she is an adult whether you like it or not.
Please don't give me anymore of your bullshit rosy scenarios about family life.
Teens never have to make that decision alone it is just that often the person they trust the least to help them is their parent.

The teens you have worked with...please, in what capacity? Because the one I have worked with were pregnant and considering abortion. So I have had these conversations with them. Each one was counseled by me to tell their parents. It doesn't take much explanation to figure out why they sometimes can not. Those children find other adult assistance and that is as it should be.

[Cheswick2.0]

85. Actually an appendectomy is not a pregnancy

Once she is pregnant she is an adult whether you like it or not.
Please don't give me anymore of your bullshit rosy scenarios about family life.
Teens never have to make that decision alone it is just that often the person they trust the least to help them is their parent.

The teens you have worked with...please, in what capacity? Because the one I have worked with were pregnant and considering abortion. So I have had these conversations with them. Each one was counseled by me to tell their parents. It doesn't take much explanation to figure out why they sometimes can not. Those children find other adult assistance and that is as it should be.

[cushla_machree]

157. emotional issues?

otoh Is a teen girl really prepared to alone deal with all the emotional issues that accompany this choice?

Every pro-life person i talk to rants on and on about the severe emotional problems that come with abortion. I know a 17 year old who had an abortion and never thought twice about it. You can't speak for everyone. Some girls/woman find it very difficult, others don't. So i find it ridiculous to punish those who do not develop these so called emotional issues after.

I do not support parental consent laws. I am willing to support an adult consent, relative, counseling, whoever. But not all girls have healthy relationships with their parents, and because YOU want control over your child, doesn't mean that the girl mentally and perhaps physically abused by her parent(s) should have to inform them.

[One_Life_To_Give]

187. In cases of abuse

Why don't we just terminate parental rights and place the child with DCS. Do you really want to just send this girl back to the same unsupportive environment?

Granted there are cases of bad parents/guardians which is what the court provision is there for. I have trouble with the ease of which the rights of the parents are waived in favor of the rights of the child.

On the one hand we can prosecute the parents for failure to ensure adequate medical treatment for their child. While at the same time saying they have no input in this proceedure.

[cushla_machree]

217. i get what you are saying

When i was under 18, i couldn't get any medical procedure done without parental consent. But for me, abortion is different.

Because of its ability to affect the person forever. Now, i do not have kids so i do not understand the feeling of possesion. I think reproductive rights are essential to the person. And i think it is a decision they alone should make. I can understand wanting some form of adult consent under 16. Because they are still children and not emotional mature. But 16 and over, i disagree.

I am a member of an online journal community (livejournal) that is about abortion info. You cannot believe the things 16 year olds to 17 year olds say.

"if i throw myself down the stairs will it abort itself"

"my boyfriend hit me on the stomach, is that safe?"

"if i starve myself will can i kill my fetus?"

"if i drink a lot will it get rid of it?"

In reality, these kids should feel comfortable talking to their parents. but they are not. And you can't force a relationship that isn't there. Were i to get pregnant at that age, i would have never told my parents. And i think i would have been old enough to handle the decision myself. Young woman try everything from herbal concoctions to taking double BC pills to throwing themselves down stairs. I feel it is their right to privacy to be able to make that decision. And if you need your child to be faced with a pregnancy for you to find out what little suzie has been up to, then perhaps THAT is the problem. We don't need parental consent laws to babysit YOUR children. Thats your job. Start doing it.

The purpose of parental consent is to STOP these girls from having abortions. Or get them booted out of the house IMO. No parent should be able to force a girl to go through a pregnancy. A child should never be punishment. If i was making the rules, 16 and under would need some sort of adult consent (anyone over 18) and perhaps talk about the decision at the clinic. Anyone over 16, their decision alone.

[Trumanway]

49. Ok, you got me.....

I am immortal and Satan's minion and he and I have been plotting for millenia to create government and stock it with our pawns to seize rights and souls from all humans. Damn, well I'll just implement DU namechange amnesty and go back underground to position myself to strike again.

{Oh oh, she's right I AM scary}

[Cheswick2.0]

86. so in other words....no rational response

like I have said before...nice side lateral arabesque.

[izzie]

6. I would say do not look up the far history of this subject.

What women have done over the last 2000 years not to have children is not pretty, and what they did when the children came even under the Church. Why do we have to have a parent saying this is OK for some one to do? Some father's are not so nice them selfs. I loved the Puritans who whipped women who had a baby in less than 9 months. Since I had a very early baby and I am sure they did in those days also it must have been just great for parents of say 30 week birth. Sometimes I wonder if we are still not in the witch burning ages.

[MuseRider]

14. If there had been parental

notification laws when I was in that position it would have been my father with a baseball bat and it would have been my head that he was smacking around (I am VERY serious). Parental notification might be a great idea if you could guarantee rational parents, unfortunately you can't do that.

[rinsd]

15. So one extreme case determines viability....

....that's about as valid as the rwers saying the girl's death from RU-46 is a reason to take it off the market.

[Cheswick2.0]

25. way to construct a strawman

thanks for playing.

[Eloriel]

16. Thanks, Cheswick

I wondered when I saw the headling in LBN whether or not there was a Parental Notification requirement involved.

[Cheswick2.0]

26. You are welcome

Yes and I was surprised at MI having this law.

[LiberalAndProud]

18. safe legal rare

This is barbaric.

-- at lease she didn't have an abortion -- Think how many of these stories we'll begin to hear if the RWingers have their way.

[ballcap1776]

60. safe legal and rare

It wouldn't be a pipedream if the rightwing bastards would face reality...teens and the young were having premarital sex even in Biblical times. The Puritans used to "bundle" for warmth during dates and many of those young women got pregnant and were forced to marry quickly. Saying, "no, don't do it" isn't going to stop anyone who wants to do it. If that phrase alone worked, then death row and all of our jails would be empty.

So instead of teaching abstinance (which I think is a valid thing to teach, by the way) ALONG with other forms of birth control, we say "no", pat the teens affectionately on their head and send them off to deal with the raging hormones, feelings and complex emotions they are struggling with daily.

Yep. We're a long way from Safe Legal and Rare, unfortunately. We can thank the Right Wing for that. ...of course, I'm sure they think it's only us Lefties with kids dumb enough to get pregnant.

You'll have to forgive me if I rant on this subject. When I was first married, years ago, I miscarried and my body would not reject the baby. I faced a rather brutal surgery at a hospital or a trip to an abortion doctor for a "chemical" or "M & M" abortion. The abortion doctor was very kind to me and I credit him with my being healthy enough afterwards to still have children. My insurance would only pay for the surgery at a "regular hospital" despite my condition, so I'm pretty testy now about women's rights.

[xpunkisneatx]

24. I have a friend who did this...

In highschool she got pregnant twice and had two miscarriages (she was kinda messed up i guess...) She later told me that her boyfriend threw her down the stairs and then she miscarried shortly after for one of them, and the other one she beat her own stomach somehow to have a miscarriage. her rationale was that her parents would kick her out of the house if they knew. She is lucky she didnt die. And shame on her parents for being so narrow minded.

[Cheswick2.0]

27. I am sorry to hear about your friend

I too thought about throwing myself downstairs when I was pregnant with my younger son. I am glad I didn't. But I was married and had another son. I didn't have nearly as much reason to feel that way as your young friend.
We have to do something about these archaic laws before women have no rights at all.

[JVS]

32. Why would these teens face criminal charges for that?

[David Zephyr]

41. Thanks to You, Cheswick, For Your Tireless Advocacy for Women!

:thumbsup:

[Cheswick2.0]

87. Thank you David

:hi:

[Oberon]

47. Parental Consent is not a bad thing

It is appalling that this girl felt she could not approach her parents. The article does not state however that the girl was afraid or that the notification law had anything to do with the decision to use a baseball bat.

As a parent, it would be reprehensible of me to not want to know and be involved with my child if she was pregnant. Parents need to be and should be involved in any kind of decision regarding the health of their children. Regardless of law, it is a moral responsibility to guide your children properly. Abortion is a medical procedure and does require a recovery. Parents need to be involved in something like that.

You speak of this being an issue of the government invading the privacy of the the family, but it is not invading. How many doctors or hospitals will perform a medical procedure on a minor without a parent or guardian signing off on it? The Parental Consent law only enforces what is already being done with regard to other medical procedures.

[Cheswick2.0]

88. wrong

We are not talking about you and your kids. Sorry, PN laws are about controling women not about recovery from abortion which really is not that big a deal. The recovery and procedure are safer than child birth and they are certainly safer than abortion by baseball bat.
But I am sure you are right, she wasn't affraid to tell her parents, she thought being beaten with a bat would be easier and more fun.

[Djinn]

117. mental anguish also more prevalent after childbrith than abortion

I'm so over the "it's traumatic" blah blah blah that anti-choicers use to pretend they care about women rather than fetus'

You are more likely to suffer physical harm HAVING a child than a legal abortion, you are more likely to suffer extreme depression (including suicidal/homicidal behaviour) after childbirth than an abortion.

As you say who the hell would choose being beaten (several times) with a baseball bat to a surgical termination if they thought they had that option.

[Oberon]

121. PN are not wrong

The article has no input on the girls feelings on if she was afraid of telling her parents and whether the PN law affected her decision to use a baseball bat. You are inferring what her feelings are.

You may feel recovery from an abortion is no big deal, but it is still a medical procedure that should involve a parent as does any other medical procedure.

When I was younger, I had a kid sister of one of my friends get pregnant at 15. She turned to me for help. I convinced her it she need to tell her mother. I knew her mother well and felt confident her mother would not handle it badly. In the end, she had the abortion with her mother by her side. Took her a week to recover, but she did. Also turns out she had contracted HPV, which was discovered during the abortion. Required her mother to take her to a gyn to it cleared up.

So is getting an abortion in the same boat as getting treated for HPV? Should STD treatment of all kind be in the same boat and required no parental consent?

[Cheswick2.0]

169. LOL

come on already!

Is there some anti-choice board all you right wingers are coming from?

Choice applies to all women evern under age ones. Asking me about other medical procedures is copletely incidental to the argument.

In fact your daughter has every medical right that you have so she can be treated without your knowledge.

[Oberon]

188. Back at you

I'm no right winger. I'm a pro-choice supporter, from Michigan. You trying to belittle me does not change the fact that a minor can not get medical procedures done without parental consent. The only exception is for cases of emergency where the ER will stabilize the child. However, if further treatment is required beyond that a parent or guardian is required.

I don't view PN as something anti-choice people trying to cram down our throats. Its about the parent being involved in the life of their children. A child does not have the experience/wisdom to make all choices about all things, that what a parent is for. To help guide the child.

[livinginphotographs]

192. One other thing to note...

Most of the people in this thread advocating PN laws are male.

This is worse than white people arguing against affirmative action.

[Oberon]

193. Yes one other thing to note

I'd bet you'd find most of the people advocating PN laws are parents. Being male has nothing to do with.

[livinginphotographs]

194. Sigh.....

You people who advocate these laws are missing the entire point of laws: laws exist mostly to protect the rest of us from the lowest common denominators of society (in this case, abusive parents). If everyone was as wonderful a parent as you, we wouldn't need those laws.

Another part of being a good parent is having a dialogue between you and your children before this sort of thing comes up. If you think your kids are running around screwing everything in sight and would have an abortion behind your back, then you've failed somewhere.

And being male has plenty to do with it: as a male, I cannot tell a woman how to interpret her experiences. I've known more than enough women who've been victimized sexually in one way or another to know that women have it a lot harder than men give them credit for, and if women say we need to get rid of PN laws, then I'll trust them to make that judgment a lot more than a male who will never ever be put in a situation like this.

[Oberon]

195. Good

The condescending attitude in your post aside, you make a good argument.

I agree that a woman does have the overriding argument on whether getting an abortion is right for her, no other person male or female has a right to force a decision to have or not have an abortion.

I agree that you need to have an open, honest relationship with your children.

But, I still find it hard to agree to the fact that a child alone can make a life altering decision by themselves. They shouldn't have to or be forced to. A grown woman has the wisdom and experience to make the decision that is right for her. A young girl most likely does not. It is her body yes, but she needs to make an informed decision. Not a decision based on fear. Convince me how a young girl can make a good decision and I'll accept that PN are wrong. There are irrational parents out there but teenagers are even more irrational.

[livinginphotographs]

196. You said it yourself:

"They shouldn't have to or be forced to"

The sad reality is that many of them are. This is not me advocating that all underage girls run out and have abortions without telling their parents. I'm saying that if a girl is put in that situation where her father is raping her or her parents will throw her out of the house for being pregnant, PN laws do nothing but make a terrible situation even worse.

It's not a question of whether their judgment is good or not; that's completely irrelevant to my arguing against PN laws. It's a matter of PN laws making, once again, terrible situations even worse.

No harm intended in the tone of my first post; I was guilty of low-post-count stereotyping and figured you would just hit and run.

[Oberon]

201. You speak true

I will concede that PN laws can cause trouble, but at the same time not having a PN law can cause trouble. I think we will just have to agree to disagree for now. I have seen enough examples in this thread to say there is a problem. But is this an epidemic? What are alternatives without resorting to removing PN laws? Can they be modified to handle cases as have been mentioned in thread?

I do realize that I have a low post count but hopefully people will see I am not trying to infiltrate but belong. I've been a lurker for a few months I've just never gotten involved.

[Nestea]

55. I think the guy should be in jail for doing this.

Legalized abortion is one thing.

Assault is quite another. And I don't think her giving permission justifies it either.

You can't give someone permission to murder you, so why can you give someone permission to hit you repeatedly with a baseball bat?

And I oppose parental notification laws.

[bloom]

56. The only good thing I can think of

is I'm glad my "kids" are old enough they don't have to worry about any damn consent laws.


Definately a control issue.


I agree with the sentiment that if parents had a good enough relationship - the teens would probably consult at least one of the parents.

The "Strict Father" (Republican) vs. "Nurturing Parent" (Democrat) model (Lakoff) comes to mind. It seems more likely that kids that grew up in a "The father of the family must be the master in his own house" environment might be less likely to talk to their parents. Following that model - Republicans would need/want this law more than Democrats.

[Forkboy]

65. What this thread needs is outinforce!

:evilgrin:

[Cheswick2.0]

89. his minions are here

[Forkboy]

92. Nah,"minions" gives him too much credit

I prefer "like minded simpletons".

[Redleg]

208. You prefer "like-minded simpletons?" That explains a lot.

LOL

[Kathy in Cambridge]

90. LOL-he's loooong gooone!

:evilgrin:

[Forkboy]

91. Aw man...I was wondering how this was really an attack on men

:D

[Runcible Spoon]

119. OMG! and Bluechill too! ahh how i pine for the abortion wars of long ago..

dueling them was my main intellectual exercise! :evilgrin: what did they end up finally geting banned for anyway?

[Cronus Protagonist]

68. Didn't they read about coat hangers?

Damn, they just don't learn from history, do they?

/sarcasm


Show your support for the president, wear a FUCK BUSH button!

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

(We usually ship same or next business day by first class mail. Orders over $25 will get a free multi-media CD)

[supernova]

94. This is just ugly in so many ways

This is still the land of men can't control themselves so we must torture women. :eyes:

I wonder how many right-to-life men would take male BC if it were available to them?

[Mandate My Ass]

101. Vaginas are so desirable and yet uncontrollable

but the uterus is like virgin fertile territory that must be settled to the benefit of those who have made landfall, however illegally and immorally, and with as little respect for the sovereignty of the invaded.

[Jack Schitt]

95. A teen shouldn't be forced to tell her parents she's getting an abortion.

What if they were pro-life freeper idiots? They'd beat her, or worse!

[HuskerDem]

111. That poor girl..............

When I was that age I knew a girl who SHOT HERSELF in the abdomen in an attempt to "kill it".

Unbelievable.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

113. Seeing as folks don't like parental notification.........

....should we also not allow the police to notify parents when their child has been arrested, or disallow school administrators to tell parents when their child has been suspended from school? After all, it could damage the kids' psyche to let his parents know about stuff like that because they might have to, you know, be a parent?

I'm sorry, but the lack of parental notification sounds to me like it will be the legal opening for parents to start recusing themselves of all responsibility regarding their children. I mean, you need to fill out a permission slip to go on a field trip, but mom and dad don't have to know about a major medical procedure?

Not to mention, what if an underage girl died during the procedure of a legal abortion? Have there been cases? I worry about abortion clinics taking the hit for a law that in a sense, protects them as well.

[Misunderestimator]

120. And what about the underage girl raped by her father...

who must NOTIFY him and get his permission to abort his baby... or people here are this thread who KNOW the reaction they would have received from a parent... I'm another.

As for concensual sex... If a woman is old enough to have sex, and to get pregnant, then she is old enough to make decisions for herself.

Parental notification is nothing more than a baby step in mission to take away women's rights.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

127. In the case of incest rape......

......it opens up a whole other ball of wax, like that the guy needs to be locked up forever.......are you actually implying it would be better if the girl got the abortion keeping it a secret, and kept living with the scum who did that to her?

As for the statement "If a woman is old enough to have sex, and to get pregnant, she is old enough to make decisions for herself.". I think the idea that she's "old enough to have sex" or can be called a "woman" is in fact, the problem here. And considering how young a girl can get pregnant, are you now willing to call 12 year olds, women? Should we be giving them the right to vote....how about to drink?

Again, as I stated, my concern is that one case will have a more damaging effect on abortion rights in the country......mainly a case where a girl gets permanantly injured during an abortion her parents were not notified of......forget baby steps, that will lead to another low level nuke in what is essentially, a PR war between pro-birth and pro-choice forces.

[Misunderestimator]

130. Yes, I believe it would be better for the girl in such a situation

to keep it a secret. She could go from there to finding other help on her own, or she could return home until she was old enough to be out on her own. What does that have to do with anything? She should try to get her father's consent, so that he beats her to near death? That would be better... how?

And if ONE case of being permanently injured would threaten the cause of women's rights all by itself... how has that not already happened in the past 30 years?

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

133. I would hope that if a girl got raped by her father........

....she would report it to the police and doctors. Yes, maybe that's a rather idealistic thought. But I think it's insane to think she would try to get consent from a man she knows raped her and would go to jail for it. As you said previously, if a "woman is old enough" etc, and so forth.......well, if she's old enough indeed, she would know what the proper course of action is, in fact what it HAS to be.

As for the second part, there is a first time for everything........

[Misunderestimator]

135. And young women are not always equipped to deal idealistically

with their abusive situations. I know that, despite my strength and intelligence, I did not fight mine, until I could leave for college. Though thankfully I was not a victim of incest, I could live with the physical and mental abuse until I turned 18. That was what made me keep living. If I ever HAD been pregnant as a teen, I would have NEVER told my father, and I would have gone anywhere to get an abortion.

And I'm glad you agree with me that it's insane to think that a woman would try to get consent from a man she knows raped her... so why, then, do we keep passing these idiotic amendments that make it necessary for her to do just that?

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

139. I am sorry for your situation...

....good luck with your recovery.

Look, I didn't want to get into a whole messy debate of "what if" scenarios like rape/incest that make the law suddenly have no recourse on what to do. We all know that the law has/creates gray areas. I just have a very serious concern in this country that we as a nation, one way or another, are finding ways to make parents liable/responsible in some cases, and out of the loop/not responsible in others. I guess for me I was approaching it as a parental issue (And I don't have kids, in fact, plan to remain childfree because I don't want nor feel the need to shoulder such responsibility), not an abortion issue.

[Misunderestimator]

141. Oh Please... "Good luck with your recovery" Indeed...

How insulting of you. I don't have children either, but I will fight for the rights of a young woman who cannot possibly get her parents' consent, to make the choice that is right for her.

And it IS an abortion issue, just as the late-term abortion issue was one... Take an issue that is not an issue at all, except at risk of the woman's life, and turn it into a political weapon. If parents have done their responsibility and taught their children well, then they will be able to work with their children in making the right choice. To MANDATE that a young woman MUST inform her parents and get their consent is abominable, BECAUSE of the "few" cases and "what if" scenarios.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

144. Nevermind........

.....I'm sorry if you think I was being contrite and insincere. I wasn't.

[Misunderestimator]

146. It has nothing to do with you being contrite or insincere... It is about

you seeing only one side of this thing. That, somehow, you can't see that the people that would be most hurt by this law, are so not a part of your life... that all you can think of is that it's a (normal) parent's right to be a part of the decision.

It's like throwing away the rights of minorities because they are so small a part of the overall population.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

152. Never said that's all I can think of........

.....I DO think of it. I just think you refuse to see the 5,000 pound elephant in the room that tells normal parents....the majority getting shut out here......that you have to sign off and be aware everything your kid does OR WE WILL MAKE YOU SUFFER THE LEGAL CONSEQUENCES.....oh, well, except for this little medical procedure....

[Cheswick2.0]

166. sigh.... why is it always you men

have you ever been a young girl raped by her stepfather? Have you ever been a woman? Have you ever been pregnant? Is there ever a chance that you will be any of those things?

NO? Then MYOB

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

174. Do you want me to go find a woman.......

....who has the same opinion as me? I will if you want, but then I guess you'll actually have to come up with a valid argument instead of simply being dismissive.

By the way, I actually DON'T think men should have a say in abortion issues in the voting booth (Although I promise you, you'd rather have me in the voting booth 9 times out of 10 on choice issues than a lot of women in this country). I just happen to like debate. Shame on me I guess.

[Iris]

126. If you think people object to these laws to protect someone's "psyche"

you are blessedly naive. I hope you enjoy that state of being.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

128. I'm only repeating what someone else said here.........

......who was against the PN law.

[Iris]

129. It's still silly.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

134. Please tell that........

....to the folks who use it as an argument who are on your side of the issue then......I think it's pretty silly too.

[girl gone mad]

151. You're talking about..

breaking the law and possibly harming other people or their porperty, in your examples. Both would be a matter of public record (newspapers report arrests, and the school would put a note in the student's file). Do you think newspapers should also start announcing the names of women who get abortions?

One is a criminal justice issue, and one is a private medical issue. Apples to oranges.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

154. Before you turned 18.......

......did your parents know about every medical procedure you underwent involving any injuries, breakages, vision, dental, illnesses, diseases, or whatever you may have had that required hospital time and/or surgery? Did they have to sign release forms, insurance statements, waivers, and other legal documents permitting doctors to make decisions regarding medication and treatment while under their care? If so, why? Did they let you take care of everything because it was your health?

[Cheswick2.0]

168. none of those thing require a child to become an adult

being pregnant does. A young womans right to chose is just as valid as anyone elses.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

175. So, are you going to disagree then if I say.......

......let's have a law making any mother (or father for that matter) under the age of 18 legal adults? I mean even if they are 12? Seeing as we are talking about the law here. Not emotions, opinions, beliefs........strict law.

[Deja Q]

143. Culture of life. I don't know what to say about this, except:

I am sad by this turn of events. Life is supposed to be precious. Why couldn't they give the baby up for adoption? I know there are necessary reasons for an abortion and it should ultimately be the woman's choice that the doctor also agrees with, but I also believe in education and informing the woman of ALL POSSIBILITIES. Let the woman know and let her decide for herself. If she still wants abortion after hearing the whole picture, then it's none of our business. When it comes to life, freedom has to involve education and awareness. Not stone-age laws that are tantamount to fascism, such as the illegality of all abortions.

What is needed are laws that don't persecute the kids BUT convince them to be open about their lives. Openness and honesty. This will save more lives than stupid antideluvian draconian laws that do more to persecute and hurt more than they save. And this case is a prime example of that. Did they make a mistake by having sex? Probably. Is abortion the best choice? Depends on how many kids are available for adoption, financial resources, I could go on for days. Life is precious but it's also wrong to create something precious in amidst a sea of chaos that will likely corrupt the youth as it develops and grows. If nobody can care for it, maybe abortion is the better choice, grizzly as it is. The fundies want everybody to become puritanistic by a snap of the fingers. Sorry, that just won't happen and will likely cause more upheaval than good. With population and economic concerns, outlawing abortion is the worst thing we can do and we, as a society, need to damn well look at those who ARE born and CAN think on their own since THEY are more likely to provide a society worthy for the next generation to live in. And that's the point. We need to fix out society to BE a society rather than a montary commodity.

BTW: I am and do openly support pro-choice organizations. But if I had said any of the above first, every subsequent word would not have been read. And maybe that's a reason why this country is divided. Nobody listens beyond the key words in lieu of personal prejudices.

Worst of all, I can think of numerous laws that these kids had gotten in: Battery, murder, rape... draconian laws that only hurt the symptom and don't bother to deal with the problem. I feel sorry for the kids, especially the woman.

[REP]

184. I Believe In Informed Consent for Birth

I also believe in education and informing the woman of ALL POSSIBILITIES.

By all means, let a woman know what's involved in an abortion as well as birth, and the psychological sequelae to surrendering an infant to adoption. According to The Koop Report (to just mention one study; there are many), surrending an infant is significantly more traumatic than an abortion. Post-partum depression is a well-known sequelae to childbirth; there is no equivalent syndrome associated with abortion. Abortion is safer than childbirth, and has fewer and much milder psychological sequelae, and is far less traumatic than surrendering a child for adoption.

[cynatnite]

147. Flame me now...I support parental notification

I have three children and two grandchildren. The oldest two are girls. My husband and I were very careful to make sure they knew the birds and the bees, where babies come from, how to avoid having babies and everything else in between.

We believe in being open and honest with our kids about the consequences of having sex before they're ready and we feel we have prepared them as well as we can.

When our oldest became pregnant at 19, we didn't jump up and down for joy, but she's an adult, made her choices and now has two beautiful children we absolutely adore. Our middle one is 14.

We know not all parents are like us. My mother is a prime example of saying no to birth control because she believes it only encourages kids to have sex :eyes:

If my underage daughter were to become pregnant and opted for an abortion, I damn sure want to know before any doctor performed a procedure on her. There are a lot of dangerous and unethical doctors out there and I don't want one of them to put their hands on my kid. If she's going to have one, I want to have the power to pick one and drive her to the clinic.

Teenagers are not known for thinking with a full deck of cards. I've got three and I can testify to that. They are impulsive and many times don't think things through as a parent could. If a teen wants an abortion, she can go get one without her parents knowing it. If the same girl gets pregnant again, she can go to another clinic and have another one. Yeah, blame that on the teen AND the parents.

I'm of the mind that there should be parental notification, but in cases of rape, incest or something to that effect, there should be exceptions. When these things happen, that's when the police needs to be called in. I would hope a doctor or nurse who comes across this would call the authorities in a situation like this.

The very idea of my daughter being able to have an abortion without my knowledge is offensive and completely unacceptable to me.

[Djinn]

149. pointless exceptions

"I'm of the mind that there should be parental notification, but in cases of rape, incest or something to that effect, there should be exceptions"

every single teenager would simply say that they are the victims of incest or that their parents are abusive, you can not force someone to report a crime not to provide a statement to police.

if your children trust you not to freak out or force them into a decision they're not comfortable with they WILL tell their parents, every counselling service urges teens to inform parents or a guardian, and as most teens aren't too sure of how to go about organising a termination they tell their parents out of neccesity.

All parental notification laws would serve to do is traumatise those who CAN'T tell their abusive or fundie parents.

[cynatnite]

156. Your argument doesn't hold water

Sure, but if the medical personel were to pick up the phone to call the authorities, what do you think would happen? Would the teen own up to it or stick with their story? Whether it's true or not, the authorities are obligated to investigate it.

When it comes to a possible crime on a minor, they will investigate it. I've seen this happen first hand. The choice is no longer in the hands of the minor.

I agree that most counseling urges the teen to go to their parents and that's as it should be.

Parental notification laws should be in place to protect the teen from going to see someone who might not be qualified or just outright dangerous. It should also be used to get the teen to talk to their parents since most of them don't completely think things through and might rush into something when they aren't fully equipped to deal with the results of it.

I am completely pro-choice, but abortion can be more traumatic for a teen who isn't cable of dealing with it. Even if their parents are fundies, they certainly don't need to make a rash decision that could cause them more damage.

As I said before, if the teen has abusive parents or the pregnancy resulted from incest by a relative, the authorities HAVE to be called. Those are the exceptions to the rule.

This one area no one will change my mind on. I'm looking at this from the perspective of a parent.

[Djinn]

163. wrong

if a child says "I do not wish to make a statement to police" there's really SFA the cops can do, they can make a few enquiries which I guess just serves to make the whole experience even more unpleasant but they can't FORCE someone to co-operate with an investigation.

Or are you suggesting that to gain an exemption from PN laws a teen would have to show proof of abuse? or would need a conviction or atleast arrest???

"I'm looking at this from the perspective of a parent."

not every parentt agrees with you there, just take a look at this thread you can't claim you have the right answers because of having had kids.

[cynatnite]

176. I don't expect every parent to agree with me

I even told people to flame away since it was obvious I was in the minority here.

A few years ago one of my oldest daughter friends made a remark to a small group of friends. One of them was very concerned about it and told a counselor who in turn was legally obligated to report it.

They started an investigation and criminal charges were filed. They didn't even need the girl's statement or permission to do so. A crime was committed against the girl and whether she liked it or not, the perpetrator was arrested and prosecuted.

[Djinn]

181. of course they don't need a statement

but if someone refuses to co-operate with police and there are no other witnesses or evidence (which there wouldn't be in the case of a teen lying to avoid PN) then there's NO charge.

In the case of a teen alleging abuse should she have to PROVE it?

[Jean Louise Finch]

160. That's YOUR situation

It sounds like you have a great relationship with your daughters, and that is great. I can understand that you would want to know about your daughter undergoing an abortion. Fine. But, let's just pretend it wasn't YOU we were talking about at this stage, shall we?

I don't think it has to be rape or incest or anything like this to keep an underage girl from wanting to go to her parents. Let's just pretend that it was some young girl that came from some fundamentalist anti-abortion family. She gets pregnant having sex with her boyfriend and she doesn't want to keep the baby. Do you think she should have to have a signed note from her parents that says its ok? Or do you think she should have to live by her parents' fundamentalist views and keep the baby for 9 months?

So here's the question for you: are you willing to support a law that would require this girl to get a signed permission slip from her fundamentalist anti-choice parents in order to have a safe abortion?

[cynatnite]

161. Yes

The thing is when we're talking about abusive parents or in the case of incest it's a simple exception to parentel notification. Easy to see.

But when you're talking about fundamental differences in beliefs, that's a family issue and not one for the government to get involved with and it's especially true when their beliefs aren't the same as everyone elses.

Just because their beliefs don't meld with yours doesn't mean the government has a right to make them impotent as parents. You're talking about taking away the rights of parents and that's what this is.

If you were a parent, would you support something that takes away the right for you to have knowledge about your child which could do serious harm? Would you support your child having a medical procedure without your knowledge?

This is not a black and white issue by any stretch of the imagination. Parental notification should be required and in the cases of incest or abusive parents, the authorities should be notified.

Before ANYONE contemplates having an abortion, I fully support counseling beforehand. If it is a teen with conservative anti-abortion parents, it will become a family issue. Those are rarely simple and most parents do try to do the best they can by their children and that includes raising them as they see fit.

[cynatnite]

162. Something else, too

If a teen who is pregnant wants an abortion and has very conservative fundamental parents, she goes to them knowing she has to have their permission to do it.

You said that the parents could force her to carry the baby for nine months against her wishes.

If you have a teen who is desperate enough and willing to go far enough to abort the fetus on her own in a dangerous way and if the parents know this, do you think they might relent in order to protect their daughter?

The baseball bat story proves how desperate some will get whether there is parental notification or not.

This goes to show how sticky and complicated of an issue this is.

[Jean Louise Finch]

170. i would like to think...

that they would relent, but I think in many cases that no, they would not. I think some people think abortion is wrong, evil and a sin in every situation, and they'd never sign off on it, no matter the situation.

They wouldn't accept the possibility that their daughter would go against their wishes and do herself serious harm, and we'd end up with more stories like this one.

[cynatnite]

177. Every parent is different so we really don't know

We can speculate on what a parent might do based on their beliefs, but it almost always changes their perspective when it comes to their child.

[Jean Louise Finch]

167. Interesting

I agree with you about counseling before an abortion, and I think that that counseling should encourage underage girls to talk to their parents or someone else that they trust, and get them involved so she can understand more completely all of the options available to her.

But, I also believe that kids have freedom of thought and a right to their own bodily integrity. I wonder if the situation were reversed you would feel similarly? For example, if an underage girl becomes pregnant and wants to carry it to term, should her parents have the right to force her to have an abortion? Should they have to "sign off" on the birth of the child?

I don't see this as stripping parents of their rights, I see it as guaranteeing a right that will effect this young girl more than anyone else. I think it should be her decision in the end, and parental notification takes the decision out of her hands and puts it in the hands of her parents, who may not, in my opinion, necessarily have her best interests in mind. But perhaps we're going to have to agree to disagree.

[cynatnite]

178. I agree to an extent with you

But if most teens carried the same maturity as majority of adults, we probably wouldn't need to have the discussion. The difference between me and my teen age daughter is that very thing.

Minors aren't allowed to make their own decisions for a lot of things such as drinking, for example.

When something like this happens to a teen, I believe the parents should be involved whether she carries it or not. Most parents do keep in mind the wants of their children.

Several years ago a relative of mine's daughter did get pregnant. She was 14 years old. Given her age at the time, if it had been my kid, I would have driven her to a clinic myself for an abortion. I felt she was just too young to even be pregnant.

If it was my daughter, who insisted on having and keeping the baby at that age, even against my wishes, the point would come that I would have to go along with it. I think there comes a point when a parent will go along whether it's an abortion or not if they try to force their will on their child when it comes to something like this. It would border on trauma to the teen, IMO.

[Cheswick2.0]

171. You are the one who wants the government involved

why are you twisting the facts? You have a good relationship with your kids then you have nothing to worry about. What you want to do is condemn the girls who are not in good situations.
Congratulations, you believe in moral fascism.

[cynatnite]

180. Uh, nope I'm not twisting nothing

If you read my post, I said I was looking at this from the perspective of a parent. I absolutely do not want someone to be able to perform an abortion on my kid without my knowledge.

I'd like to know where you think I said that I condemn the girls who are not in good situations? Also, what are the good situations? Are they the ones that only agree with your position? Is that what you are saying when you think I believe in moral facism?

I believe in parents being able to parent. How can any parent do their job if their teen can go get an abortion without their knowledge?

You don't have to agree with how that parent believes or what their morals are, but parents should have some sayso when it comes to raising their kids.

I'm starting to get the impression that it's okay for a kid to go get an abortion without their parent's permission if you and a few others don't agree with what their parent believes.

Does the right of the parents get thrown out the window when it disagrees with how you think?

[JI7]

186. kids can do many things without the parents knowledge

you think just because one is unable to get an abortion through a doctor that they wont try something themselves.

the article itself proves the point. the poor girl was so desperate she risked her own life to get rid of her pregnancy.

she should have been able to have access to a doctor who can do it for her safely.

not all parents out there are good. you can't control every single thing, especially as kids get older.

[Cheswick2.0]

202. wrong

a Teen age girl has the right to privacy in medical matter even from you.

[MissB]

165. It may horrify you

but not all parents are rational. That is why parental notification laws are shit.

[JohnLocke]

216. Not all parents are as responsible for you.

[JI7]

179. dealing with reality

the way i see it, it comes down to dealing with reality. i can't stand when people compare it to getting ears or some other body parts pierced or tattooed which many people do when trying to justify their support for parental notification.

it's not the same thing because the issue of sex,pregnancy,abortion are also ones of privacy. it's not something you talk about or deal with as you would the other things i mentioned about such as piercings. the emotions and other things involved are much different.

there are many girls who are so fearful of what their parents would do if they found out they were having sex and got pregnant that they would risk their lives to get rid of the pregnancy rather than tell parents to help them as in this article. in fact it's up to parents to develop a comfortable relationship with their kids when speaking of these issues. but all parents are not the same. culture, religious,family problems etc are different for every person.

while i have not always been political i have since my early teens been prochoice for everyone with safe access to abortions for the reasons i list above.

[cynatnite]

182. I never compared it to tattoos or any of that

It's not the same. Of course when my kids turn 18 they can tattoo or pierce whatever they want.

I believe safe access to abortions is something that should be available for everyone, but that doesn't mean a teen should be able to have one and their parent not know about it.

How can a parent be a parent if their teen can go have an abortion on their own? If the parent has done all the right things such as talk to their child about sex and everything that goes with it and even if that parent is pro-choice, the teen can still have an abortion, a medical procedure which can be dangerous if a doctor doesn't know what they're doing, without the parent's knowledge.

This is something that is very serious and a teen just shouldn't be able to make this decision at the drop of a hat. They shouldn't make it just because they're scared of their parents. No parent in their right mind is going to be jumping for joy their teen daughter is pregnant. Of course not, but not all parents, even the conservative ones, are so horrible that they would traumatize their child. Most parents love their kids and will do everything they can to help them. That's why parental notification is important. That way the teen doesn't do something withouth thinking it through...they already have or they wouldn't be pregnant in the first place.

[JI7]

183. that's not true, there are parents who would physically harm the girls

and just the FEAR of that alone would result in the girl trying to do the abortion herself. and that's the point. of course we all prefer she let the parents know. but we are dealing with reality here and there are girls who are just too scared to do that. and they still need access to doctors for safe abortion procedures so they don't do something as the girl in article in the original post did.

that girl must have been so scared to do what she did. and there are many others like her.

[cynatnite]

185. I addressed this in an earlier post n/t

[Cheswick2.0]

203. but you answer was emotional and not rational

so try again

[cynatnite]

212. What's emotional about it? n/t

[barb162]

210. Amen!

[ignatius 2]

211. Jesus Christ, I am sick after reading this. There will also be a

run on metal coat hangers and young girls will die or be permanently sterilized by back alley quacks if Roe and Wade is overturned.

We are entering the new dark ages, what a bleak time in American history.