To be fair to the Marine who shot the wounded insurgent

[cali]

he was in a terrifying situation. I'm not quite ready to condemn him. Condemn the people who engineered this ghastly war and sent him there? Absolutely. But, I watched the tape several times, and I listened to the reporter, Kevin Sites. What I picked up from the audio was a young guy who was wound extremely tightly. He was probably scared. According to Sites, the marine had been shot the day prior to his killing the insurgent. Sites also reported that a marine was killed the day before by a booby trapped body. War is full of horror. One can only expect things like this, and worse, to happen. If he's guilty, he'll be court marshalled. I don't compare it to Abu Gharib. What those soldiers did was far worse. Their actions didn't take place in the heat of battle.

Flame away.
It's cold today.

[merh]

1. Did you watch the video?

He stood over a wounded man in an alley and shot him dead.
Then he said he is "gone" or "done". I don't think we would excuse an insurgent that did this to one of our soldiers, do you?

(On edit: Apparently there are more than one videos of soldiers just shooting the nasty Iraqi citizens, whoops, I mean insurgents or terra ists!)

[Left Is Write]

6. No, we wouldn't.

If this video were of an Iraqi shooting a wounded Marine, one can only imagine the outcry.

[KansDem]

66. Or if a video showed an invading Iraqi soldier...

...shooting a wounded, unarmed American inside a church in, say, Atlanta, GA?

Imagine the outcry...

[Left Is Write]

148. True. Yours is a better example. (nt)

[cali]

10. Actually, it's not about excusing so much

as it is understanding that war truly is hell. There's never, ever been a nice-abide-by-the-rules war. In the heat of battle, people are terrified, want only to survive and yes, are filled with adrenalin
and bloodlust. I don't like it. I'm just not ready to condemn the individual who just wants to make it through the battle. At least in this particular case.

[datasuspect]

14. yes, it's terrible

especially when in the past 200 odd years of this country's existence we have had wars primarily with OTHER ARMIES rather than their armed patriotic citizenry.

[merh]

17. In the heat of battle I can almost understand the killing.

The killing was not in the heat of battle. imho

[Pithlet]

80. I agree with you about why he did it.

War does horrible things to people, and changes them in terrible ways. I disagree that he shouldn't be condemned for it, though. Many people go through that same hell and do not react that way.

[idiosyncratic]

24. Actually, the wounded men were inside a mosque.

I saw part of the video and they were definitely inside a building. They stated it was a mosque.

The men were wounded and had been left there by other marines the day before. They were unarmed.

Some of the five were now dead. The man who was killed was lying prone, unarmed.

There was no excuse for what happened. Americans are supposed to be better than that.

[merh]

27. As my edit reflected, there are more than one video of

soldiers shooting iraqis. I saw the one where the soldier went into the alley and shot the man and then shouted out "he is done".

I haven't seen the other (if you have a link, I would appreciate you sharing that here) but my view point is the same.

In the heat of battle, killing is understandable, when the battle is done and the man is down or captured, killing for the sake of killing is a war crime. (of course, this is my opinion).

[idiosyncratic]

37. Sorry I don't have a link. It was shown on all the networks

however, it was shot by an NBC cameraman.

In this case, they were inside a room, the bodies were on the floor. There were no weapons, there was no live fire. Everything was "calm."

Then one marine saw that one of the Iraqis was "playing dead" (probably afraid he might be killed). The marine who shot him in the head noticed, and commented, he was still breathing.

That is when he shot him.

There was no excuse. None! Our men should be trained better than that.

[merh]

40. I didn't see that one, and I am glad I did not.

The other one disturbed me so much, I have been having trouble sleeping. The inhumanity of man is so hard to understand and that others try to explain it away is just frightening. I am grateful I have no children of my own to worry about in this day and age, but then there are my nieces and nephews and kids of friends and so many.
:cry:

[ProfessorGAC]

79. In A Mosque?

That's really bad, no? There are already intense anti-American feelings in the Islamic world. Killing anybody, even if they really are terrorists and really bad guys, in a mosque is going to make that all the worse.

The whole "crusade" thing is being cemented in the minds of the most disaffected Muslims with this kind of action, i would suspect. That just can't be good.
The Professor

[The Wielding Truth]

109. Americans are supposed to be better than that.

Americans are supposed to be better than that.
Americans are supposed to be better than that.
Americans are supposed to be better than that.
Americans are supposed to be better than that.
Americans are supposed to be better than that.
Why aren't we?????????

[Doohickie]

67. More than one video

The alley video didn't actually show the Iraqi or his being killed. The story was that he was wounded and the American soldier looked over the fence, saw him moving, and shot him. But the video did not see what the soldier saw, specifically how badly wounded the Iraqi was, or whether he was armed.

The second video shows several wounded or dead Iraqi's laid out. The story I heard was that they were wounded by a previous action with which the marines in the video were not involved. On camera, apparently one of the Iraqi's moved, then is shot from close range by the American. That is clearly worth investigation, but either way, the PR damage is already done; I'm sure Arabic media has already had a field day with it.

[merh]

72. thank you for the clarification.

eom

[underpants]

2. Well that is the company line anyway

I agree with what you say but I also heard the talking heads saying pretty much the same over the weekend...lead by Fox NEws.

I am not accusing you of anything I understand that argument but the big picture here is that that is illegal this kid just got caught on tape doing it.

[Democracy Died 2004]

3. I guess i see your point

but making excuses for this administrations behavior is becoming to common place. And yes he is part of this evil regime, although a small and insignificant part.

[Inland]

4. Either follow orders or take the consequences.

This country can't win in Iraq or any other place if soldiers do "understandable" things like shooting the wounded, torturing prisoners, or declining orders to fight.

If that's expecting too much, then we might as well give up on the entire military force thing.

[vixannewigg]

8. War is Hell

That's why they say war is hell. You don't think that people from other countries do horrible things during war? You cannot blame the troops as a whole for decisions that this government has made.

[Old and In the Way]

12. Correct...you blame the chain of command for allowing this mess

to occur. They have placed our sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, aunts, uncles, nieces, and nephews in an untenable position. They are fighting for their survival against a population that views us as the occupying oppressors that we've become.

Personally, I think this is yet another example of this administration using the broadcast media to divide this country....putting the heat on the soldier where it doesn't belong and taking it away from the criminals who created the conditions for this to happen.

[The Sad Little Pony]

59. War IS Hell.

Mines, Booby Traps, Flamethrowers, Daisy Cutters, Claymores, Fully Automatic 5.56-30mm Guns, Automatic Grenade Launchers, B52s, Chain Guns, Bayonets. Ambushes. White Phosphorus.

Sometimes it seems as though people have forgotten what War actually is.
War is Hell.

[Inland]

70. No, but I can blame him for failing to follow orders and committing war

crimes. That is all.

[Mike L]

13. Abu Ghraib was a lot different from this incident.

[sui generis]

5. unfortunately I have to agree with you

it doesn't take anything to pull a pin on a grenade and keep the clip down ("deadman's switch") until someone rolls you over, especially if you're already mortally wounded, and that is a hard fact of war that soldier had to consider. The other data he had to consider was that that mosque was engaged in battle the day before as an enemy position - that meant that the wounded guy was most likely one of the resistance fighters.

It still makes me angry though for this reason: this story is intentionally being used to eclipse the story about the AP reporter who witnessed our guys shooting a family (with children) crossing the Tigris river trying to escape Fallujah - bait and switch.

Quite frankly, if we were invaded by China (and I use them as an example, not out of bigotry) I would most likely be an "insurgent" too.

[RBHam]

7. link to the ap story?

nt

[sui generis]

21. sorry - it was here on DU yesterday but I can't find it

The gist of it was an AP reporter who had stayed behind had planned to record the liberation of Fallujah from the inside. Instead, they had word that troops were moving from house to house and many civilians were being killed. Finally, fearing for his own life he decided to try to get out of Fallujah by crossing the Tigris - where he saw a family gunned down and had to help bury two of the family members.

Anyone else still have the link?

[F.Gordon]

45. But that wasn't the case

He was laying prone, face up, arms out.

it doesn't take anything to pull a pin on a grenade and keep the clip down ("deadman's switch") until someone rolls you over

Someone says...."he's fucking dead".... shooter..."he's fucking faking it...he's still breathing".

He was just doing a little Clean Up. (Clean Up is a registered trade name of Black Box Voting, Inc. a 501c3 corporation):-)

[ProfessorGAC]

86. One Question

Wouldn't shooting someone with the clip down on a grenade carry with it the same risk as turning him over while still alive? What assurance would the shooter have that the shot itself wouldn't cause the guy to release the clip? Seems to me that this is questionable logic, even if what happened is exactly as you describe.
The Professor

[MISSDem]

9. Please tell me how this is different from an account

that I heard on NPR, I think it was Monday. The marines had run upon a group of "insurgents" in a house and they got real quiet pretending to have left until the "insurgents" came out. Then according to one of the brave soldiers they "blew them apart". This whole thing leaves me sick to my stomach. And of course this is happening after the election. Colin powell and Rumsfeld were told to keep a low profile and a lid was to be kept on Fallujah until after the election. Now the city is a pile of rubble and deab bodies.

[Mike L]

11. cali, I agree with your post.

The Marine had been fighting for six days, had been shot, and was paranoid (rightly so) about booby traps and insurgent tricks. I doubt he had had much sleep and probably was running on adrenaline. Apparently he thought the insurgents in the Mosque were dead, since another Marine had just said outside that they had been shot. Then he saw one breathing and sounded startled on the video. Any one of us might have done the same thing.

[opihimoimoi]

15. War is a Bitch, but there seems to be a code since early days of combat

Mercy killing after the battle.... where the grieviously wounded are put out their misery and pain by both sides. Could this be the case.??

[Krs216]

16. I agree

But I don't thing him or any of the others should be there to begin with.

[Phillycat]

23. Whew, where were you on the thread I just deserted?

Thank you for your opinion, I agree with you and you would not believe the beating I just took for it in the other thread about this. Rude, condescending, and hateful. I'm out!

[barb162]

54. yes...we were not in this soldier's shoes

[Rose Siding]

151. If you saw an exact video with the roles reversed...

would you have the same opinion?

I don't think I would.

[sr_pacifica]

172. Good point

This is what I have been thinking as I read posts of those who are asking for forbearance around the actions of this marine. It's a good practice in many of the events happening in Iraq to imagine another country's army in the U.S. doing to us the same kinds of things our military is doing over there. We would be outraged if it this incident happened here. And plenty of people would be stirred to either continue fighting or to begin fighting based on this occurrence.

[mike_c]

18. I strongly disagree....

The Iraqi wounded had apparently been disarmed, given first aid, and left behind as neutralized non-combatants by another Marine squad. Furthermore, the Geneva Conventions are very specific in this regard-- the Marines were responsible for insuring the safety of the wounded, not killing them in cold blood. The man who was murdered on camera was clearly not a threat in himself-- he was unarmed, unconscious, and barely breathing. His murder was a deliberate war crime, now being televised around the world. The Marine committed that crime IN OUR NAMES. Don't you think we have a moral responsibility to hold him accountable rather than to defend his actions? The world is watching.

[RBHam]

20. People are blind...

They don't realize they were watching a "death squad" unit. They yell "He's faking it!" LOUDLY so they can say they THINK he might be booby trapped...

It's an out.

[slowroll]

49. Kinda like Jimbo and Ned?

"He's comin' right for us!!!"

[cali]

26. What I think is that it's

easy to pass judgement, to be self-righteous when we're here and not in the middle of the hell of war. I saw that video differently from you. There was gunfire all around. The reporter on scene didn't reach the same conclusion as you. In fact, he made the point that I'm trying (obviously not very well) to make. We don't know whether or not the marine shot this guy because he feared for his life and those of his fellow marines, or because he was so wound up, he reacted without thinking, or because he was acting with malice. We just don't know. I don't think it can be repeated too often: War is hell. People do things they'd never do outside that specific moment.

One thing I do know is I hear very little condemnation of some of the things that the terrorists do. Yes, terrorists. Some are insurgents fighting for what they believe in. Others are terrorists, capturing civilians, both Iraqi and western and executing them in cold blood. Not in the heat of battle. In cold blood. Hundreds of Iraqis have been targeted for cooperating with the U.S. and the Iraqi government.

I hate the war. I worked against it. I still hate it. I despise those who took us to war. But I am not blind to the injustice on both sides.

[RBHam]

28. There are no terrorists in Fallujah.

Who Is A Terrorist?

By Ghali Hassan
http://www.countercurrents.org/hr-hassan270704.htm
27 July, 2004
Countercurrents.org

excerpt:
The last few weeks have witnessed the US forces bombing civilian houses in Fallujah on six occasions, killing dozens of innocent civilians, including women and children, each time. The excuse for this barbarity is that the US intended to kill a "terrorist" by the name of al-Zarqawi. According to the
people of Fallujah, "al-Zarqawi does not exist. He is a made-up figure". The US occupation forces in Iraq have been claiming that al-Zarqawi and his Arab and non-Iraqi Muslim fighters are hiding out in Fallujah. Dr Muhammad al-Hamadani, a Fallujah resident told Aljazeera News that he had no knowledge about any non-Iraqi fighters in the town. "As a Fallujah citizen, and head of the Fallujah Scientific Forum, I can tell you that I have never seen or heard anything about non-Iraqi fighters in Fallujah". "We hear about al-Zarqawi in the media, but have never seen or felt his presence or any of
his followers in Fallujah", he said. Al-Zarqawi proves to be a good bogeyman for the time being. The underlying objective of this is that the US is misleading the public and using the rhetoric of antiterrorism as a cover for terrorism. It is part of Western propaganda to instil fear and hatred into
the Western mind against Muslims.

Iraq has not attacked or threatened to attack the US at any time. This was all done on the rationale of to " disarm Iraq from 'weapons of mass destruction'". Of course that proved to be completely untrue, and Iraq's so-called WMD has been destroyed in the summer of 1991 in a genuine attempt to allow for the lifting of the genocidal economic sanctions. The Iraqi people will unlikely forget or forgive the Americans for the crimes committed in their names.

The American media analyst Edward Herman wrote, "it is the West and Western interests that have pushed terrorism to the forefront, not the 'terrorists'. The West has done this because they want to use terrorism as an ideological instrument of propaganda and control". The only truth about this "war on terror" is that it has no end in sight, and it will absorb resources vital to the well being of societies. It is a war on the poor and powerless.

more...

[mike_c]

32. yes, it's easy to pass judgement on cold blooded murder....

It's a war crime. I'll refer you to the Geneva Conventions, not that it matters anymore. The U.S. has made it clear that the rules of civilized conduct do not apply to us. Rationalizations such as yours only reinforce that position.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

39. "I saw that video differently from you. There was gunfire all around".....

i guess so! ...because you better watch it AGAIN.."There was gunfire all around"WTF???...that's NOT what i saw nor heard...the only gunfire i heard was from this sicko marine screaming "he's faking being dead!"

Jesus!...I sure did see that video differently from you.

"There was gunfire all around"...give me a friggen break! the only gunfire in that video was from the gun of the fucking sicko Marine that shot a severly wounded Iraqi Patriot!

and yes, i am ANGRY!!!!

[billyoc]

19. Yes, let's be fair.

No death penalty, life in prison.

[Frederic Bastiat]

22. He is a war criminal

Have you seen the video?

[Nordic]

25. you're being way way way too empathetic

Empathy is a wonderful trait, I have a lot of it, too, but you're taking it a bit too far.

Are you a woman? I'm just curious.

Because a man totally understands how, in a situation like this, you would want to kill, maim, mutilate, dance on the corpse.

That's the empathy I feel for the marine. I know in the same situation I'd want to take an axe and chop the fucking guy who'd been shooting at me to pieces.

That's human nature.

And it's wrong. You're not supposed to act on that.

The marine fucked up. He committed a crime. He knows it. Unless he's snapped and gone nuts. Which might be the case.

Read that book "Jarhead". You'll read of many instaces like this

[tuckessee]

29. "To be fair to the Robber who shot the wouned storekeeper"

he was in a terrifying situation. I'm not quite ready to condemn him. Condemn the people who engineered this ghastly war holdup, and sent him there? Absolutely. But, I watched the tape several times, and I listened to the reporter, Kevin Sites. What I picked up from the audio was a young guy who was wound extremely tightly. He was probably scared. According to Sites, the marine robber had been shot the day prior to his killing the insurgent hapless clerk . Sites also reported that a marine fellow bandit was killed the day before by a booby trapped body wounded victim. War Armed robbery is full of horror. One can only expect things like this, and worse, to happen. If he's guilty, he'll be court marshalled jailed. I don't compare it to Abu Gharib Scott Peterson or Mark Hacking. What those soldiers murderers did was far worse. Their actions didn't take place in the heat of battle committing a violent felony.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

34. Your substitutions are not equivalent...

...obviously.

Unlike soldiers, robbers have a choice. If they choose not to rob, there is no negative consequence for them.

Further, while some excuse the war crimes of insurgents - kidnapping innocent aid workers, reporters, and truck drivers and chopping their heads off - that still doesn't make them equivalent to some "hapless clerk" who is murdered while trying to do his job.

But you knew that, didn't you.

- C.D.

p.s. You do the Democrats no favor by comparing U.S. soldiers to thugs robbing a convenience store. As long as these kinds of arguments are made unchallenged, we are going to continue to loose elections nationally.

[tuckessee]

43. Soldiers have no choice?

Please explain this to me.

There is no draft.

No one was coerced into signing up. If so any contract would be invalid.

There are options (dishonorable discharge, jail stint) if a soldier does not want to go to the war zone.

There is nothing sacrosanct about the "military" that exempts them from basic moral standards.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

75. I think it's pretty obvious...

...that there is no moral equivalency. A robber chooses to rob a store. What happens if he decides not to? Nothing. He doesn't go to jail. He doesn't loose his family, his friends, or his job prospects. There is no "dishonorable discharge" from leaving a life of crime. Nor is there a "fellow robber" he is letting down, or even leaving behind to die, if he decides to chicken out.

There is nothing sacrosanct about the "military" that exempts them from basic moral standards.

Hmmm. Really? The ultimate job of the U.S. military is to kill people. As the very premise of the institution violates a "basic moral standard", the only reason it exists is because society exempts it. We do so because there are some organizations so odious that we have no other choice other than to resort to mass slaughter of their supporters - the Nazis and Al Quaeda come to mind.

The trick is, to paraphrase Nietzsche, not to become the monster we are fighting. Americans have settled law on how to do this. We give both the authority and responsibility for war to our elected civilian leadership. It is THE PRESIDENT you should be blaming for getting our soldiers into this mess, not the soldiers themselves. I guarantee you, there isn't a single G.I.in Iraq who doesn't wish he was back home with his family.

Please don't turn your disgust with Bush into hatred of American military institution. Spitting on our soldiers, even proverbially, doesn't win elections. And even if it did, we cannot afford to diminish the power of this country. Though we both agree Iraq was a mistake, there are still circumstances in which war is the lesser evil. There are also situations where the right choice is muddled (for instance, I also supported Clinton's bombing the Serbians for their genocidal campaign against the Kosovar Muslims - maybe you beg to differ).

- C.D.

p.s. Welcome to the Democratic Underground. Please note: this isn't the Green Underground or the Socialist Underground.

[ElectroPrincess]

87. No, you don't quite have that right ...

With all due respect, please pick up a document called the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) sometime and read it. Although it is the military mission to "seek and destroy" I was (I'm a Army Veteran), like my peers, expected to meet a moral standard of conduct.

You are sadly mistaken as are the neo-cons. The Military was designed to fight "conventional" battles and win a war/conflict in a fairly short period of time. They did that during the invasion in a matter of weeks. Our MILITARY was NOT designed to be a force of occupation. That's the problem ... they are being misused.

That was partially WHY the United Nations was formed = to provide a stable authority and peacekeeping ability that would be respected by all Nations.

The neo-cons of the * Administration have made the UN impotent. No good can come from a continued occupation of Iraq. Except for the Military Police units, no other military personnel contingents are trained to manage an occupation.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

142. I think we are in vociferous agreement.

I am by no means defending this war. I was against it from the start. Nor am I excusing our utterly unfit Commander in Chief. I was merely saying that responsibility for war rests with our civilian leadership, not the individual men and women in uniform, despite the fact that we expect them to violate the Sixth Commandment in the performance of their duties.

- C.D.

[cali]

38. Simply moronic response. n/t

[Hey Zeus]

30. making comparisons between the insurgent killed..

and an innocent person is totally ludicrous and an excuse to criticise our armed forces.

[HFishbine]

64. Please define "insurgent"

Would that be anybody who challenges an occupying force?

[Hey Zeus]

77. that would be someone who takes up arms...

and attempts to kill our boys and girls in uniform.

[ProfessorGAC]

89. Like The Minutemen in Concord?

Just wondering. Maybe that is what Brits thought.
The Professor

[Hey Zeus]

99. were the minutemen enemy combatants?

yes.

[sandnsea]

31. If a cop did that

It would be considered murder. Yes, war is full of horror. That shooting was one of the horrors. There were ten soldiers there. Absolutely no reason to shoot that guy. And the callousness "dead now". I've never been in war, I'll admit that. But that kind of incident shouldn't happen. And now all those guys have to live with one more horror of war.

[Karenina]

33. How about

"Let's be "fair" to the Iraqis? The wounded man lying helpless on the floor just wanted the Americans OUT of his country. They invaded on long-since proven lies, bombed his city, destroyed his home, killed his wife, kids and beloved Gramma, FOR WHAT? He's prepared to give his life to TAKE BACK what has been STOLEN from his people and some heavily-armed American RACIST who considers him nothing more than a SAND NIGGER takes advantage of his condition in the name of "euthanasia."

May your apologies for your atrocities find a definition in the next DSM.

[cali]

35. Oh, please

you know nothing more than I do about who the victim was. That you can't understand that life isn't black and white, that war most certainly isn't black and white, doesn't speak too well for your ability to think, not just critically, but at all. I'm hardly apologizing for the marine. I'm suggesting that we don't know all the facts, and yes I'm listening to Kevin Sites, who I think is an excellent war reporter. Take a deep breath and ponder these lines from the great poet, W.B. Yeats. (Glad that you know what the DSM is, now try expanding that narrow knowledge base of yours.)

The best lack all conviction
and the worst are filled with passionate intensity.


Do you get it? Even a little bit?

[Misunderestimator]

48. What an insulting post.

The videotape speaks for itself here. The man was clearly unarmed, as it seemed all the other dead people in the room appeared to be as well. This marine was simply finishing the job of killing all the unarmed Iraqis in the room. It was an eerie glimpse into their minds... "look, he's pretending to be dead" (as if that in itself is such a reprehensible thing) "He's breathing!!" (absolutely unforgivable) Boom... "He's dead now."

What more do you need? I don't care if this guy was a product of those who sent him there. He is a criminal now.

[cali]

53. Under the circumstance

I think I've shown great forbearence regarding the hysteria and level of ignorance and bias on display in some of the posts here.
I actually suffer fools gladly- at least most of the time.

I'm not going to respond to the entirity of your post- I think I've explained my point of view pretty comprehensively in several places in the thread. It boils down to this: I'm not ready to pass judgement on this marine yet for all the reasons I've given.

[noiretextatique]

94. oh...please: we invaded their fucking country for no good reason

there is not excuse for what is going on over there. do i understand why people kill in cold blood...sure i do. i am not going to excuse it, especially since we have no business over there in the first place.

[cali]

126. Aaarrrgghhh

<tears hair out, mutters stupid under breath.>

If you had bothered to read what I wrote, you would have known that I condemned the war and bushco in no uncertain terms. Nor did I excuse anything. But nooooo, you had to make a comment without having grounded yourself in the subject matter.

[bloom]

145. So you came here to argue

with anyone who might see the war from the Iraqis point of view? :shrug:

[Karenina]

90. Facts about the Marine...

He has been taught to DEHUMANIZE the "other."
He has been WELL-TRAINED TO KILL.
He was sent to commit murder on behalf a corrupt regime that invaded a sovereign nation.
He has NO LEGITIMATE BUSINESS THERE.

Do rest assured. No questions will be asked about his victim whose death will likely not even be "counted." You WIN!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

124. Quite right on all counts.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

41. AMEN! Karenina

[ElsewheresDaughter]

36. fucking bullshit!!!! i watched and LISTENED to the whole scene..the guy is

a fucking criminal!...PERIOD!

[cali]

42. Let me pose a hypothetical

(and I can make my point without needless yelling; an indication of an inability to argue coherently, IMO)

What if that was your son, your brother, your husband who had been shot in the face the day before, who had watched his friends being killed, what then?

Have you even listened to what Kevin Sites has to say? He was there, remember?

Again, I'm not apologizing for this marine. If he shot this man, with malice, he should be tried for murder, but I'm not ready to say that's what happened. I find it far more reasonable to blame his commanding officer, who sent him back into battle the day after he was shot. I find it far more reasonable to blame those that engineered this war.

The video proves nothing. Either way.

[Karenina]

110. The DISCONNECT is absolutely STUNNING

The Iraqi people have been experiencing this DAILY. FOR YEARS their land and water has been poisoned, their children have suffered horrific birth defects, their infrastructure is now destroyed, invaders kick in the doors of their homes and drag their children off, some NEVER to be seen again, bombs are raining down on their heads, DOGS are eating the remains of their loved ones...

"What if that was your son, your brother, your husband who had been shot in the face the day before, who had watched his friends being killed, what then?"

You needn't bother to imagine how THE IRAQIS feel...

[cali]

134. I think of all the things you brought up

I worked my hardest to prevent this war, including taking 12 hour bus rides to D.C., working with my peace and justice group, donating to NCOs and raising money for them. I wrote letters and contacted my congressional delegation. I deplore this war, I mourn for the Iraqi people. I was attempting to discuss one specific incident. If you read the numerous posts I'd writtenin this thread, you'd know that. I understand it's a long thread, but for pity's sake, I started it; and made many posts further explaining my thoughts; at least make a judgement about the bulk of what I said, not a snippet. In short, nope no disconnect but an ability, alas , in short supply, to grasp the apparent theory of paradox- wherein two seemingly irreconcilable truths co-exist within the same space/time frame.

[barb162]

155. excellent!

I feel the same way

[qanda]

119. Can I ask you an honest question...

What if that were your son, your brother, or your husband who was wounded and was pretending to be dead just to live another day to see you and he was killed in cold blood like that, how would you feel?

You keep excusing the Marine's action like he was the only one there. If what you say is true, why didn't all the Marines there raise their guns and shot at the same time?

[cali]

138. I'll be glad to answer your question

If it was my brother or son lying there wounded, I'd be horrified. Wherever did I say I wouldn't? I'm asking people to not be so quick to judge. I'm basing my hesitation to judge on what I saw, heard and on Kevin Sites' reporting, as well as the knowledge that I can't fully understand what was going on in this kid's head. I can't fully understand the heat of battle. I find it fascinating that people condemn what they don't ;understand with such ease. Try this: I'm not excusing what the marine did, nor am I condemning him I'm trying to understand what happened.

[Karenina]

154. What about

THE INJURED "KID" HE MURDERED IN COLD BLOOD even if he's not YOUR brother or son??? Can you find any compassion for someone whose skin color may be different from YOURS? :eyes: Could you understand THAT KID'S FAMILY making every attempt to drive the invaders OUT of their community and homes?

WHAT HAPPENED is that a CORRUPT GUB'MINT sent their TRAINED KILLERS into a town for NO GOOD REASON and is, as I type, COMMITTING GENOCIDE.
Sorry, there's no excuse. It's not about condemning this Marine personally, he obviously has a higher order of the sickness your posts present and access. It's more about realizing and ACKNOWLEDGING what is happening and REMOVING your "boys" from the scene. They've really done quite enough damage already, which you will NEVER hear about in your MSM. According to the "word on the street" from expatriates of the land your gub'mint is brutally raping, your "boy" is NOT an anomalie.

When the RHC accuses American soldiers of treating Iraqis like Untermenschen... "Houston, I think we have a problem."

[cali]

167. Your rant is barely comprehensible

You, Madam, are sorely in need of an expository writing course.

So all the soldiers are trained killers? Baloney.

Yes, a corrupt government sent them there. And sent them there to die and to kill. Try wedging open your tightly closed and rather small cranium. Oh, never mind. That's something you're clearly incapable of. People like you are virtually interchangeable with those on the othe side, refusing to see anything but your own narrow point of view. Truly pathetic.

[Karenina]

169. CA, old pal, is that YOU???

Got yourself a new handle, eh? Thanks for the laugh, you really had me going! :silly:

[PhuLoi]

149. You don't shoot the wounded, period. How you treat the wounded

is how your own will be treated by the enemy. The young troop fucked up big time. Sorry doesn't bring back the dead.

[DS1]

44. WOW! A call for DUE PROCESS!! UNBELIEVABLE!

Let me shake your hand.

Finally, someone gets it.

[cali]

55. A thousand thanks and let me

return the sentiment: Finally, someone gets it.

[VioletLake]

65. Due Process?

What a meaningless term that's becoming.

[dpibel]

78. Limited due process, that would be

Edited to create subject-verb agreement.

The posters who are ready to justify the marine's action because the dead guy was an insurgent, and probably booby trapped, and certainly scary seem not to be interested in due process for him.

For the "they do awful stuff, too" crowd: aren't we there to free and civilize our benighted brethren? How, then, do we justify our barbarity by invoking theirs?

For the "war is hell, this always happens" crowd: there are actual rules for war. When people contravene those rules, they are war criminals. Your argument is rather like saying, "Now don't condemn that drunk driver! Lots of people drive drunk."

One-way empathy. One-way due process. Sad.

[Forkboy]

128. Great fucking post!

One-way empathy. One-way due process. Sad.

Sums up some of these posters all to well.

[Q]

139. Could it be that 'these posters' already assume the solider will get due..

...process? The event is being 'investigated'. That's HIS due process.

- But what you and yours don't seem to 'get' is that the victim here had no due process. He was summarily shot...executed. Please keep in mind that few or none of the people being killed in Iraq had any kind of due process. They were killed because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[dpibel]

141. Misunderstanding?

Forkboy was agreeing with my post, and my post agrees with your post--the "one way" part was saying just what you do, that the OP and others in this thread seem worried only about due process for the marine. I think we're all on the same page in this little subthread.

[Pithlet]

88. I'm all for due process.

That doesn't mean that we all have to keep our mouths shut about the atrocities that take place during war. That we have to accept what is done. That we have to watch what we see on that tape without comment or reaction. Due process is a great thing, and that soldier deserves it just as much as anyone. If due process is a reason we should not comment on how horrific his actions were, or what we think should be done as a result, then it would follow that it is also a reason not to comment on any excuses that soldier may have had or defend him outside of court.

[Forkboy]

127. The irony is overwhelming

A man is shot in cold blood WITHOUT ANY DUE FUCKING PROCESS and you act like that's all you're asking for.

[AP]

What's going on that is so wrong is so much bigger than those 30 seconds

Those wounded in that scene had apparently been wounded treated and abandoned the day before and then these people happened on them and freaked out.

The series of event that led up to that shooting were all tragic mistakes and/or criminal acts, and even if you could excuse the emotion at that one moment you have to ask what how the hell they got to that point.

[barb162]

73. so true n/t

[ScreamingWhisper]

46. I have both seen and heard the video / audio

and it is amazing the details one's ears can discern when the mind doesn't disect the imagery at the same time. There are sirens AND a whole lot of semi-auto fire in the background. Clearly this whole group was still located in an area hot with action and potential dangers.
I find it amazing that a group of people are so ready to jump at this soldier, in the line of fire for days, for making a snap-judgement that could have possible saved his and his comrade's life. What if that insurgent had 2-3 frag grenades under his arm, or a booby-traped landmine under his body.
No soldier knows what they may be encountering from moment to moment.

[F.Gordon]

50. Yea, he was really concerned about a "booby-trap"

He kept his distance just in case.:crazy:

[ScreamingWhisper]

52. Do you know of a better way to stop a person, wounded

or otherwise from triggering a device?
Ask him to nicely admit to any possible hidden devices?

[F.Gordon]

62. What.Ever.

These "American Heros" were just making sure everyone in that building was DEAD. Now he was just making sure that the guy didn't "trigger" a device? What.Ever. :crazy:

[slowroll]

63. Why didn't they kill the other guy? n/t

n/t

[F.Gordon]

68. Oh, I don't know

There was definitely someone there that tried to stop John Wayne. Maybe I should tune in to Limbaugh and get his take on this. I'm sure he can "clear this up". :crazy:

[slowroll]

81. ?

Your post lacks coherence.

[F.Gordon]

83. Most of my posts are incoherent

Or I'm insane. The doctors say I'm getting better but they did suggest that I refrain from posting messages on the internet for awhile until the meds kick in.

:silly:

[Forkboy]

130. Do you have any evidence this was the case?

[barb162]

51. I think I agree . None of us were walking in this soldier's shoes

at the time he shot the man. If he thought the guy was faking and the man could have rolled a grenade over....

[ScreamingWhisper]

60. Exactly right. Not trying to sound too much like a cliche, but

war, especially war in an urban environment is a messy affair at best. And no matter one's view of the war, everyone always says "they support the troops". Well, support them now and let the formal investigation and due process go forward. It seems to me that one seems to hear of our soldier's being held to a high degree on most occurances, while very little of the insurgant's actions being held as inhumane. Let the military discipline, if this was out of line.

[barb162]

71. you're right. This and other boards on this incident are getting

super-heated.

The soldier was shot in the face the day before and was in constant urban fighting the last several days as I heard it. He had probably seen several buddies killed and/ or injured. The stress/ tension level had to be beyond mind-boggling. All I can think of is two cliches: (1) there but for the grace of God go I and (2) don't judge as we weren't walking in his shoes.

I suspect that if I were shot in the face and was under constant fire I would either be catatonic/shaking uncontrollably or hysterically shooting at everything. I will NOT condemn this soldier. I did not hear a cold-blooded killer in that video; I heard a scared man who shot first under duress.

[Forkboy]

131. Try walking in the dead guys shoes

[cali]

57. Welcome to DU!

You did hop right into the fire.

[Forkboy]

129. And what if he didn't

What if that insurgent had 2-3 frag grenades under his arm, or a booby-traped landmine under his body.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

47. i tend to agree

[CWebster]

56. All this compassion for the killer

yet we don't even value the life of an Arab enough to even qualify them for POW status under the Geneva Convention.

Yet, we always seem to stretch ourselves to the limit to find it in our hearts to tear up the Geneva Convention when it challenges our own lack of humanity.

They don't qualify for the protections of the Geneva Convention and yet we are more than willing to exempt ourselves from Geneva Convention prosecution.

Americans who defend this should hang their heads in shame.

[barb162]

74. from MSNBC"s analysis today

"Self-defense?"
The judge advocate general heading the investigation, Lt. Col. Bob Miller, told NBC News that depending on the evidence, it could be reasonable to conclude the Marine was acting in self-defense. The policy of the rules of engagement authorize the Marines to use force when presented with a hostile act or hostile intent,” Miller said. “So they would have to be using force in self-defense, yes.”
“Any wounded — in this case insurgents — who don’t pose a threat would not be considered hostile,” said Miller.

Charles Heyman, a senior defense analyst with Jane’s Consultancy Group in Britain, defended the Marine’s actions, saying it was possible the wounded man was concealing a firearm or grenade. “You can hear the tension in those Marines’ voices. One is showing, ’He’s faking it. He’s faking it,”’ Heyman said. “In a combat infantry soldier’s training, he is always taught that his enemy is at his most dangerous when he is severely wounded.” If the injured man makes even the slightest move, “in my estimation they would be justified in shooting him.”

[slowroll]

58. If this Marine was simply out to kill wounded

and shot the guy for no reason other than kicks/not wanting to deal with prisoners/etc., why did he leave the other guy on the ground alive?

The Marine yells "He's faking it!" before he shoots him. If the Marine thought the guy on the ground was only pretending to be injured, doesn't it make sense that the Marine might have suspected that he might have run into a trap? Why else would he be pretending to be injured? Sure, the Marine was mistaken in his assesment, but if I'd been up in the middle of a terrible urban fight for the last five days where I knew my fellow Marines had been killed in similar situations, especially after I'd been shot in the face the day before and was possibly under the influence of both painkillers and uppers, I think I might have erred on the side of caution too.

This kind of stuff happens on both sides in every battle fought in every war. It's not the same as Malmedy or beheading hostages or any of the other nonsensical comparisons I've seen here. It's just part of war, the nature of the beast. The only difference is that we now have technology to bring it into our living rooms. If this terrible war hadn't been started in the first place we wouldn't be having this conversation-place the blame where it belongs.

[Cornedwine]

61. He will be condemned..

I think it was an accident as well...the guy was in a terrible fire fight and he had been shot the day before...I would never have the gall to sit and judge hime..


But the fact is the media will crucify him and he will end up in prison...there is no getting around that...he is fucked...and I think it is a shame...

[Sterling]

69. "media will crucify him"

What planet are you on? The "librul media" has been going out of it's way to make excuses for this act. They wont even show the actual deed on TV because they know the outrage it would create.

[Forkboy]

132. Note how many new posters are here defending this shithead

Dosn't take a rocket scientist to put 2 and 2 together.

[datasuspect]

135. is the answer

4?

or is this place swarming with freeptards today?

[Forkboy]

137. Correct on both counts

Threads about the troops bring them out faster than a thread on Reagan being being a gay feminist under the influence :)

[barb162]

143. did you ever hear of" innocent until proven" guilty or did you miss

that in grammar school

[datasuspect]

144. umm

sorry, i think the outcome will not be in the soldier's favor.

[Forkboy]

146. Hypocrite

I dont see you railing for due process for the Iraqi.Why doesn't he deserve "innocent until proven guilty"?

Did you miss that in grammar school yourself?

[barb162]

152. hey hypocrite

I dont see you railing for due process for Hassan or beheaded hostages.

[Forkboy]

156. Ah yes...so one excuses the other

I see I was correct about you.

For the record,seeing as though this has you so worked up that you can't go more than a couple posts without mentioning it,the people who killed Hassan are scum.She didn't deserve to die.

Now that that's out of the way can you please try to focus on this topic without excusing one atrocity because of another?

[barb162]

159. You are incorrect, on your first two sentences

For starters, this soldier deserves a fair trial and I hope he gets it. Check out all of my other posts here and my position on this incident is very clear. I am putting you on my ignore list now.

[Forkboy]

161. oh no,not the...IGNORE LIST!

:eyes:

[Karenina]

163. You also seem to have a SERIOUS DISCONNECT.

The US of A, led by a *dimwit, INVADED IRAQ, ignoring the better judgement of it's own "movers and shakers," those of the ROTW, who tuned out 10 million strong to publicly state their position, those who LIVE NEXT DOOR and has subsequently DEVASTATED a land and its people.

The video of this Marine executing a supine man, and ALL your rationalizations are an accurate depiction of how Amurikkka sees herself and her position in the world. The Marine is simply carrying out American foreign policy. Wir wissen bescheid.

[barb162]

165. You are on disconnect. Check the US Constitution, Fifth

Amendment.

In plain terms, this soldier is innocent until proven guilty.

I don't do rationalizations.

What I notice on this board is that some people who might think of themselves as liberal and democrat have already deemed this soldier guilty ("...Marine executing") and already want him punished. This is astounding in light of the soldier's due process rights.

"Amurikkka"....why don't you try Sharia law? I prefer my rights under the US Constitution.

AS far as your first paragraph is concerned, please quit the big preach. No shit we don't and never did belong in Iraq.

[LadyinRed]

76. Thank you cali

I agree. For those trying to understand, if you have not been in battle yourself or had a loved one tell of the horror, you have very compassionate hearts.

To condemn without facing what this young man has faced is unfair.
I have not and I do not have anyone there now, but I have had family fight in every War since WWI and have heard the stories.

In the World Wars, usually the soldier could identify the enemy. This did not make it any easier to live with, but my Grandfather (WWI) said you knew you had killed the enemy.

In Iraq , as with Vietnam, the enemy is not so easy to to recognize.
My brother-in-law (Vietnam) thought he had most likely killed civilians. He thought about it constantly for 20 years and killed himself. He was 45. He couldn't live with it.

When this is over, most of these young people will not come back and live as other young people do. They will be haunted by what they have seen forever.

I was curious if anyone who has replied on this thread has been in battle.............

[Pithlet]

82. What about the people who do not commit war atrocities?

I definitely don't think that you can argue that war cannot affect a person in negative ways and that it isn't a mitigating factor. But that doesn't mean it is an excuse to pardon the atrocities that come from that affect, or that people have to accept and defend what that soldier did. I think that the horrors of war is a mitigating factor, and you can't ignore that, but it is not an excuse.

[ElectroPrincess]

92. If you are in a war zone long enough, even the most "just"

person will accidentally kill someone innocent. No one can "get off" free of sin if you are in a ambiguous battle situation for over 6 months. Everyone will have something to feel pain and guilt over. Why do you think it's said that "War IS Hell"?

[Pithlet]

111. I'm not talking about war in general

I'm talking about war atrocities. You know, little things like violation of the Geneva Convention.

I have no idea where the saying War is Hell came from... </sarcasm>

[Hey Zeus]

84. i agree with you...

and think this marine should not be condemned.

[Fear]

85. ONE word "ICC" and another TWO words *Geneva conventions*.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

91. Soldiers are murderers. The reasons are irrelevant.

He committed murder. Just as the "stressed", guys who chop off heads do. As do most soldiers of whatever kind "in the heat of battle". And, they all have great "reasons" for murdering their fellow humans.

Patriotism, religion, duty, honor, family, loyalty, vengeance, defense,democracy, freedom, all of the "isms", etc. All noble sounding excuses for murder.

"What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?" - Gandhi

[ElectroPrincess]

95. Wow, that's no way to build consensus ... not true.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

101. Really? Explain how it is not true.

As for a "consensus", does that mean that if enough people believe that killing is good we should all participate because "everybody does it"?

[barb162]

107. I just wonder in a situation where someone breaks in your house

and has a knife to your kid's throat, and you shoot that person...are you a murderer. I would consider that self-defense, legitimate use of violence and not murder.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

117. The Americans broke into Iraq.

Does that make the insurgents legitimate when they cut off somebody's head? Where's the "self-defense" in killing someone who is defenseless and not threatening you?

Soldiers kill. That's their job. They aren't trotting around handing out flowers and candy bars and comforting the sick (except in the propaganda films).

Putting a uniform on them doesn't make them into noble beings given a license to kill people.

[barb162]

102. "Just as the "stressed", guys who chop off heads do" HUH????

I can't equate the murderers of Hassan or the others who chop people's heads off in a very staged, propaganda reading "show" with the US soldier who shot that guy.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

112. They were both defenseless, both murdered.

What's the difference? They're both equally dead. Just as the "unfortunate" civilians are that are killed by "smart" bombs or artillary. Why does wearing a uniform make a killer any different than any other killer?

The Germans massacred hundreds of thousands of people because they were "stressed" by civilian clad partisans.

How about the guys who bombed Dreseden, London, Hamburg, Guernica, Warsaw, Hanoi, etc, and killed millions. Does distance make a difference? Are the people killed by napalm or high esplosives any less dead than somebody with their head cut off?

[Bluebear]

93. "Oh these are wounded that were leftover from yesterday"

Call me naive, but what struck me as much as the killing was the fact that they left wounded people to suffer overnight in agony.

[ElectroPrincess]

98. Truth is, we don't know the *exact* situation or how we

personally would react in a war zone. It tends to bring out the best and worst of humanity to the forefront.

[Bluebear]

100. Well, yes, we do know that the wounded were left there overnight

The tape clearly says "Oh these are the same guys from yesterday", I would think that once the mosque was "cleared of insurgents" they would haul off the injured for treatment, but like I say maybe I am naive about how war works.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

104. Where's the "best" part.

Killers killing people.

[barb162]

108. my understanding is they gave medical aid first and then left them

and I can be totally wrong on this too.

[Forkboy]

96. Madness reigns supreme

Both here and there.

[noiretextatique]

105. if we do it, it's not THAT bad

i think that pretty much sums it up. had the situation been reversed...

[barb162]

113. I would differentiate in one way at least. When we had those

wounded guys captured, we gave medical aid to them and left them there to be picked up later. When the insurgents capture people, heads usually get chopped off.

[Forkboy]

116. We seem stuck more on the concept of beheading

than on how wrong the whole situation is.How many beheadings have there been? How many innocents have we killed? Want to compare numbers?

[barb162]

121. no, when someone is killed, like Hassan, for political show, I

consider that murder. This woman would only have done good for humanity if they had released her.

I don't want to do a numbers thing here...I am totally, 100% against the war in Iraq.

[Forkboy]

133. ".I am totally, 100% against the war in Iraq."

100% seems a stretch.

[barb162]

136. How would you know?

[Forkboy]

150. Oh gee,I dunno

:eyes:

You'll figure it out.Grammar school helps with these kind of things :silly:

[barb162]

158. with your deductive skills

(lack thereof) you can't seem to figure anything out.

The FACT is you don't know anything about me and I would appreciate no more of your incorrect insinuations and leaping to incorrect conclusions. Because most of the time on this board you are wrong. And don't tell me that I was or am pro Iraq war.

[Forkboy]

114. That seems to be the logic

:-(

[Crago]

97. Remember when .....

Remember when the conservative wimps pissed and moaned over a story of Kerry shooting a supposed teenaged attacker, in the heat of battle. This Marine wasted an injured, possibly defensless man for no good reason.

[noiretextatique]

103. fear it always the excuse

when policeman kill people here. there are always people who accept that as an excuse. i have know doubt that young man was terrified, but he deserves whatever happens to him.

[npincus]

106. and he had been shot in the face the previous day

nothing like re-circulating wounded and traumatized soldiers in the Iraq shooting gallery

[barb162]

115. I know, I know.... n/t

[Bridget Burke]

118. You've got it backward.

"If he's guilty, he'll be court marshalled."

I believe the court martial comes first.

[Qanisqineq]

120. I just heard a wonderful explanation by an old veteran

on Ed Schultz. If you have not been over there, you do not know how you would react. These marines and soldiers have to turn into things they do not like just to survive. You have to make split-second decisions that you have to live with later. When you see bodies booby-trapped and watch friends die, you become very scared of everything. They will have to live with all this the rest of their lives. Our president is non-thinking and didn't realize this before he sent our troops into war.

That is a paraphrase of what he said. We really need to think about how our personalities would change and how we would act if we were shot at daily and watched friends die.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

122. You mean like cops who are "stressed" and kill prisoners?

Or, prison guards who kill and torture prisoners?

A handy excuse that. "I was scared so I murdered someone."

[Qanisqineq]

123. that's a ridiculous comparison

cops are shot at, but not constantly. I don't see many dead bodies booby-trapped in our streets. War is a helluva lot different than prison or the streets of New York or DC or Cleveland.

This marine was hit in the face the day before by a booby-trapped body. I don't agree with him shooting the wounded man, but I can understand why he would have been jumpy and scared.

My husband was in Iraq. He didn't shoot anyone but he knows what a couple hours of sleep a night, one small meal a day, and constant gunfire does to you. And he had it good compared to this marine.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

125. Well, that justifies murder...I suppose.

I can understand why he was jumpy and scared too. So?

Nor do I necessarily think that this guy should be punished for doing what soldiers do. Not unless they want to bring all the guys who kill for "good reasons" to the dock also. Of course, if you ask the Iraqis what their "good reasons" are, they're sure to have a whole list of them. Just as the guys who chop off heads do. And, the guys who drop "smart bombs" on civilians do. Just as the Germans did in Lidice and thousands of other towns and villages across Europe did.

But, he like his brethren are far from heroes.

[barb162]

140. good post; there is no comparison. I have a question

did (does) your husband think we should just get out of there NOW? I mean we certainly are not winning the hearts and minds of the people the last several months. I think shortly after we entered Baghdad Bremer etal could have done good things, but didn't. The Iraqis were glad to get rid of Saddam and that small window was wasted. I think we are well past the point of ever doing any good there. I always thought we should never go there, if the US went in there the country would split in 3 entities, cause civil war and there were no WMD anyway (other than the stuff we gave to Saddam). What a waste/ disaster.

[Qanisqineq]

166. to answer your question

(sorry it took so long, I was offline for a while)
my husband thought we never should have been there in the first place and thinks we should just get out. He went to Iraq about a month after Bush declared "Mission Accomplished" and, though he was against the war, hoped that at least good would come out of it. He was sadly disappointed.

Most of his friends & fellow soldiers were against this war, too. Even ones that were pro-Bush (very few of those) -- don't ask me how they were pro-Bush and anti-Iraq War! :) Now, after the election, the few of them that were pro-Bush are now VERY, VERY angry with what is going on in Fallujah and are wondering what is going on with so many in Bush's cabinet bailing. Even pro-Bushies are now turning on him. Too bad it happened a month too late.

[Domitan]

147. No handwringing in the Arab world

You won't see the Iraqis and other Arabs try to see simply what a tragic flawed man this marine is...they see him as an arrogant bastard dog with no honour and cowardly bloodlust.

Face it, this definitely is not in the direction of winning hearts and minds, no matter how you perceive this marine.

[barb162]

164. "winning hearts and minds"

we lost that so many months ago, we should just pull out. Our soldiers are just fodder for the insurgents. Maybe just stay in the Kurdish area, where I think they may still want us there. And if the Kurds don't want us in their area, we should pull out of there too.

[SmokingJacket]

153. Soldiers have no free will.

Technically, they do: they can go AWOL. They didn't have to sign up in the first place. BUT once they're there and in the situation they are tools of the state.

I feel for them, but I also loathe them. Yes, it's possible to have conflicting feelings, and it's perfectly justified. I think it's WRONG to willingly put a gun in your hand and go out looking for people to kill, no matter who tells you to.

On the other hand, these soldiers have lives that are different from mine -- many are national guard or joined thinking they'd never see combat, some weren't thinking ahead, some have had bad lives, whatever -- since I haven't walked a mile in their shoes, I ain't judging.

That soldier will be burdened with this his whole life.

THIS WAR IS WRONG. This is just more evidence.

[chookie]

171. Let's not forget "Command influence"

I saw the tape. The situation is ambiguous.

However, it did not need to end the way it did. A cooler head, a different "command influence", different orders of engagement, and this might not have happened.

The British soldiers are much more conservative about killing people. They think first, before they pull the trigger. This strategy does not seem to have caused them heavy casualties....

This soldier made a mistake, even if it was an understandable one given the horrific stress and confusion of urban warfare (remember how we warned Bush about how if it came to urban warfare, it was going to get very very ugly, but he laughed at our childish thinking?). If guilty, he should be punished accordingly.

But the bigger issue looming over all of this is -- why the FUCK are they over there killing people anyway? The war was a LIE. Iraqis who would have never dreamed of killing Americans, let alone attacking us on our own soil, have taken arms against us. Bush's claim that "Better to kill 'them' over there they let 'them' kill us here" is total fucking bullshit. It's a nightmare. And yes Virginia, it will eventually become genocide. Also. we could lose. Michael Scheuer is right -- its a choice now between war, and eternal war...

Thousands upon thousands of moral young men and women are over there, ordered to kill in an unrighteous war. They will be psychically scarred forever. When they come home, and speak out, they will be spat upon by the fucking war-god worshipping Republicans. But this fucking administration is TOTALLY sociopathic -- I bet Bush could watch innocent civilians get napalmed and still order a second dessert. Dick Cheney sleeps like a baby at night. Because they are morally dead inside.

Let's face it -- the leaders of this war really believe the Geneva Convention is laughable, and that the Mighty Eagle of Global Capitalism should be free to treat humans with unrestrained evil -- this is the assumption at the top. And you better believe it trickles down through the ranks. If there was true moral leadership, there would be no Abu Ghraibs. But there is an assumption here that there is nothing intrinsically bad about murdering "ragheads". Therefore, the microsecond of mental calculation before you take aim to kill someone vanishes.

Anyone who is looking for those "few bad apples" should start their search in the fucking Oval Office.

Yeah, we should NEVER have gone in there in the first place, but even worse -- they have totally fucked up how they are waging war. Are they deliberately trying to delay victory, in order to continue destabilization of the entire region, and carry out Wolfowitz and Perle's Final Solution against Muslims?

[Jack_DeLeon]

157. I agree with you Cali

I saw the video and to me it appeared that everything happened quickly.

Another guy called the target and the marine eliminated the target, seemed like his training and instinct made him do it.

[NNN0LHI]

160. Good. I hope he ends up being your next door neighbor some day

I trust you two will get along just swimmingly.

Don

[Mikimouse]

162. So Sorry that I was not here for the 'meat' of this thread, but...

I would like to point out a couple of things that have been really bugging me about this whole thing. I have heard the old 'he was shot in the face the day before' thing at least a hundred times today, not counting the number of times in this thread, and I would like to politely point out the fact that since he was walking around and able to shoot, he couldn't have been wounded all that badly. Don't like it? Call the GOP and ask them to send this murderer one of their leftover bandaids from their convention. As far as I am concerned, there is no justification whatsoever for what he did and he should be tried for war crimes, end of discussion. As for the due process advocates, I don't disagree with the concept, but the way it has been practiced by the US military in the recent past makes it impossible for me to believe that this guy will really be tried as such. As so many before him, he will have a fake trial, maybe get a slap on the wrist, or more likely be exonerated. Just like those poor, put upon soldiers at Abu Ghraib, and those overmedicated pilots in Afghanistan who killed the Canadian troops, OOOPPPS!, Oh well, at least they were Canadian (Or Iraqi, doesn't really seem to matter much anymore, as long as they are not 'ours'.

[AngryOldDem]

168. You and I must have seen different videos

The video I saw showed a callous and cold-blooded murder. This Iraqi could not get himself up off the floor, let alone load and fire a gun.

This is senseless. It is a war crime.

I do agree that it deserves a court-martial. That is the LEAST we can do if we want to maintain our illusion of being the way of truth and light for the world.

[Garage Queen]

170. Amen. Amen. And Amen.

You succinctly stated all the points I was going to make.

It was a cold-blooded EXECUTION.

Court Martial the Marine responsible.

[Brand New Tico]

173. You're faking being brain dead!

pow-pow-pow-pow-pow-pow!!

You are now!