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donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 01:02 PM
Original message
Karl Rove is grandson of Karl Heinz Roverer of nazi fame

http://www.almartinraw.com/public/column106.html

-snip-

Ambassador Joseph Wilson has been turning up the heat in this situation. He revealed on Friday August 29 in a symposium in Washington the person in the Bush administration, who had leaked it out to the Washington Post that Wilsons wife is a CIA agent of 26 years. As a consequence of this leak, her entire team of overseas assets were liquidated.

-snip-

According to reliable sources, as well as our own Al Martin Raw.com investigation, Karl Rove is, in fact, the grandson of Karl Heinz Roverer, the gauleiter of Mecklenburg, who was also a partner and senior engineer of Roverer Sud-Deutche Ingenieurbro AG. They built Birchenau, the concentration camp in Nazi Germany.

So Karl Rove has been identified as the leaker responsible for the deaths of more than 70 CIA assets overseas (See previous story Will the Real Chemical Ali Please Stand Up? The Curious Case of Ambassador Joseph Wilson)

-snip-

And where would Rove go? Karl Rove, it should be noted, is a dual citizen of the United States and Germany. Because of his position he has special diplomatic status. The idea is that if its absolutely necessary he could go to Switzerland where he couldnt be extradited.
-snip-
----------------------------

much more info in the article

70 CIA assets killed!!!

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Red_Viking Donating Member (903 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
1. Is this true??
Kee-rist! Definte grist for the mill. If the Dem candidate doesn't verify and use this info to its fullest potential...I can't even think about it.

What an opportunity.

Rove outed Wilson's wife?? Then the scum-sucking asshole should be in JAIL!!!!

And, it's now clear why he's such a fan of fascism. Heil this, KKKarl.

RV
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Trek234 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-04-03 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #1
55. Doesn't matter
99.9% of americans probably have no idea who Rove is, nor would they associate him with Bush. It would take the mainstream media to do so, and you can be sure they won't do it.
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Sweetpea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
2. Does he have paper proof? Birth certificates?
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radwriter0555 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #2
28. Interesting case. Rove is a linch pin in the bush regime. To take him
out would be a critical move, and seriously detrimental to the regime.

I like it.
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Trek234 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-04-03 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #28
56. Would he be taken out?
Let's say he really did resign or something of that nature as a result of this.

So what? He doesn't have a phone? Even if he leaves public light all together, he will still be working for Bush just as he does now. He probably just won't visit the white house in person very much.
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realFedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
3. seem to be a lot of historical German connections
with this current administration...

This should be an interesting Octoberfest
if any mainstream papers start connecting
the beer steins.
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. this comment
nearly made me spray coffee on the pc monitor.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #3
15. Not suprising really
Bush's grandfather Prescott funded the Nazis, his father(Bush I) hung out with a lot of former Nazis, even had a few in his administration. Sonny boy is just taking up the old family business, along with the old family connections.
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ramblin_dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
4. Al Martin is one of those folks whose claims must be verified
You can't accept his stuff at face value.

Verify, verify, verify.
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berry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #4
20. Agreed--Al Martin needs verification--BUT in this case it's not that hard.
From reading this article, it seems the source of most of it must be Joseph Wilson himself. And he must have spoken to other media outlets, not just Martin. Of course, Martin suggests that if we don't read or hear it elsewhere, it's because Bush* is quashing it. Still, Wilson is canny.

I do want to know more about this "liquidating" of 70 agents. What kind of agents? where? how? by whom? couldn't they have been protected? brought to the US if necessary? This is the part that seems most impossible to believe--but there is an underworld that not much news leaks out of.... I don't know. I'd sure like to hear Wilson speak out publicly about this. Up until now, he's been carefully dribbling info out to keep the story alive. This blows the top off. I wonder if he meant for all this to come out at once (assuming it's true...)
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FlashHarry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #20
43. I agree. He says that but offers no proof.
If that were in fact true, it would be grounds for his imprisonment for treason. I find it highly doubtful, somehow.
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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
5. While a person's father
and their sins should never be held against someone...it seems odd that in recent weeks both Rove and Arnold have been found to have something in common.

Are there any others with these ties close to the levers of power in the US?
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. My, have you not read the Bush Nazi thread?
started by bobthedrummer. There's a few.
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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. Oh good grief, no I hadn't seen it
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. keywords "karl rove holds _'dual'_ citizenship"?
Edited on Wed Sep-03-03 01:14 PM by ElsewheresDaughter
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
6. OMG! It figures, doesn't it?
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
9. He's the spiritual son of Hitler and Joseph Goebbels, I know that much.
.
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Cujo Donating Member (315 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
10. if thats true
its just disturbing how many nazi ties this administration has. also if its true its humorous that freepers try to say that nazis are actually on the left because they were the National SOCIALIST party.
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RobertSeattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
11. I say so what
You can't fault people for:
1. Their ancestors
2. Their physical looks (for the most part)
3. Their name
4. Where they grew up
5. When they were born

But Rove is still a jerk! :)


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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. True n/t
,
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Brian Sweat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #11
23. I agree to for the most part,
but the Bush administration seems to have a lot of ties to Nazi Germany. One person with a Nazi grandparent means nothing. Two is smoke. Three is fire.
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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #11
27. How about who was an influence in their lives.
Fathers are usually great influences in peoples lives. Ah-nold and KKKarl both have Nazi fathers. So what type of influence was there?
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Sophree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. And the Leo Strauss influence
http://www.counterpunch.org/leupp05242003.html

Who felt justified in using Nazi techniques and anti-democratic methods:

*****snip***
Strauss's point of departure is Socrates, who in Plato's Republic denounces Athenian democracy (the rule of the untutored masses) and instead promotes government by "philosopher-kings." Strauss had experienced the Weimar Republic (one of the more democratic experiments in modern history) and seen Germany fall into the hands of the Nazis. He understandably opposed the latter, but he derived some lessons from their methodology. The failure of the Weimar regime to prevent the rise of fascism, in his view, resided in its failure to put power into the hands of the strong and good, who inevitably, unable to acquire popular support through honest methods, should (like their Nazi adversaries) have cleverly used Big Lies (towards good ends) to nudge the people towards those ends. Only wise men, acting in secrecy, can do that.

As Hersh points out, the neocons (just about a dozen officials---including Wolfowitz, Perle, Feith, Bolton, Abrams---operating in concert with the oil-baron contingent in the administration-Rumsfeld, Cheney, Rice, Bush---and providing them with intellectual guidance) refer to themselves (with smug amusement) as a "cabal" (a word with an interesting etymology). They have contempt for the masses, and feel utterly justified in wisely misleading those masses into a roadmap for global peace on their terms. That meant, initially, using 9-11 to produce support for the seizure of Iraq. That seizure is still in progress, messily, untidily, brutally and illegally, and with results no cabal, however wise, can really predict. Among the results might be a growing revulsion among the American people themselves at the neocons' misanthropic arrogance, and perhaps (much though it should be regretted and fought) anti-Semitism. The latter might be provoked by the fact that persons inclined to embrace the most extreme factions in the Israeli political apparatus are disproportionately represented in the neocons' cabal, and while the general movement of U.S. foreign policy is driven by broad geopolitical concerns, rather than the alliance with Israel, the neocons' allegiance to what they perceive to be the interests of Sharon's Israel is highly conspicuous.

*********
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
12. Madness
If this is true, which with Killer Karl anything is possible, then one of the Presidential candidates should make a big uprising on it. When I first heard of the Novak story my first guesses were Rove and Cheney. Two of the meanest people on earth. I sort of respect ruthlessness in a way, because these guys are damn good at strong arming their way into getting others to do the craziest things. They get stuff done, it's just too bad it is at the detriment of the whole world. Guys like Rove are without a doubt the ugliest part of our society. I am still amazed that these guys outed a CIA agent just to settle a score, when they were wrong to begin with. I just don't get it. To me, these fixated ideologues are more frightening than anything I can imagine.
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asjr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. rove
Your last sentence sends chills up my spine. Because it is so true. Each day I become more and more afraid--more than I have ever been. Cheney and Rove have many secrets. And it seems those who could help to get all this out seem to disappear. It's as if a steamroller keeps coming and there is nothing we can do about it. So much can happen between now and election 2004. Will any of us last until then?
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Sophree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #12
31. Apparently it was also a warning
To others in the intelligence community: Keep your mouths shut about * LIES or else.
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Sophree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #12
35. They won't.
"then one of the Presidential candidates should make a big uprising on it."

If this is true, they won't:

****snip***

Its been said that Dean is himself frightened to start talking about it because it would diminish the press coverage hes been getting. The Bush Administration has let it be known to the Democratic National Committee that any Democrat who tries to push this will find press coverage severely limited.

*****
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
16. Al Martin AGAIN?
Edited on Wed Sep-03-03 01:26 PM by BiggJawn
The guy who makes Art Bell look like a credible source?

Google turns up NOTHING concerning a "Karl Heinz Roverer", a "Roverer Sud-Deutche Ingenieurbro AG" (Roverer South-German Engineering Bureau) BUT...there are references to a "Gauleiter of Mecklenburg" in the Nuremburg transcripts...MUST be Rove's granpappy!

I'll wait until somebody else comes up with documents, thanks.

Funny, isn't it? Prescott all tied in with IG Farben (Zyklon B) and Deutsche Bank, and Holland-Amerika...
Gustav the Stormtrooper...
Rumsferatu the Disowned...
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
19. Need a reliable source
Since Al Martin is the source, I will disbelieve this in its entirty.
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Must_B_Free Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #19
29. Has anything Martin had "reproted" EVER been confirmed?
not to my knowledge...

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Scaramouche Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
21. Mein Gott in Himmel...
Names like Ashcroft, Rumsfeld, Dr.Frist, and Busch dont sound teutonic enough for you?

Yo, did Dr. Mengele start with kittens, firecrackers up the butts of frogs,or BB guns and stray dogs?

I've seen this bad movie before and it was called the "Boys of Brazil."

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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
22. But, if Martin isn't a reliable source why would Wilson leak to him?
Wouldn't Wilson have more credible people he could say this to? Aren't there other folks who would be glad to get this out?

Why isn't Martin credible, anyway. I don't read him....but is there some big story that he was found to be totally wrong on? What's the deal with him?
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qb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. I don't know anything about his credibility
but his columns read like spy novels, and they usually contain such damning accounts of illegal/immoral activity in the Bush admin that they sound too good to be true.
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #22
36. Who says Wilson's been talking to Al Martin...
Besides Al Martin?

Martin suffers from Munchausen's Syndrome.
He claims to be the "Spook of All Spooks" and spouts off with all this unbeleivable stuff, like the Post Office issuing Nazi stamps and Black Helicopters.

IMHO, his credibility is just slightly below that of the Weekly World News, home of....

Bat Boy!

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radwriter0555 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
24. James Hatfield said that his source for bush/blow connection was Rove...
which I find an entertaining notion.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
26. Don't forget Rove was actually around during Watergate
playing little tricks on Muske. He's been hanging with the bunch for awhile.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
32. Oh please, not another conviction by heredity!
You know, the same could be said about Democrats, or any member of the elites in this country: That they are all descendants of scoundrels, that robbed and pillaged their way into wealth and power.

This is what Freepers do! Heredity has nothing to do with anything. If you don't like someone, it better be based on what that person has done or failed to do.

Using a person's heredity to attack him or her is another form of racism!
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. I don't think its the heredity
that's the problem, its the fascism.
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. This isn't like AHH-Nuld's Pappy...
If Karl's Gran-pappy was a Nazi functionary and got rich off of building death camps, then one could make a VERY strong case for a "family business", just like the Bush Family Nazi Past.
There's family fortunes and ideologies going back 60 years or more involved here...

The earlier Bushes were huge on Eugenics, too, don't forget...
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PurityOfEssence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. Arnold's daddy was an MP in an area where many Jews were killed
That's an important distinction too: the Einzatsgruppen (front-line Jew-killing units) were very prominent in the areas of the northern front in Russia and the Baltic States where major killing of Jews happened before the Death Camps got up and running. Military Police are specifically involved with securing civilian populations and maintaining order, along with maintaining transportation networks, and other such chores. The myth that the the Wehrmacht (Army) wasn't involved in killings of Jews, Gypsies and others has been resoundingly disproven.

Whether Gustav Schwarzenegger killed any Jews himself or was part of a unit that did, he was definitely in areas where they were rounded up and killed on the spot. He definitely knew what was going on, and probably was involved at least in rounding up and/or securing groups of these civilians.

What your daddy did colors what you learn and accept. Although you shouldn't be strictly held accountable for them, you got some 'splaining to do, and taint of this magnitude screams for comment from him.
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FlashHarry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. You don't have to 'splain anything.
The sins of the father cannot be transferred genetically. And that goes double for the grandfather. Even if this were true (it sounds like utter crap to me), how do you know Rove even knew his grandfather? I didn't know either of mine (one of whom was an ultra-right wing Republican, by the way. Sure didn't rub off on my mother or me.)

Listen, there's more than enough dirt out there to convict these guys without having to resort to digging up dead relatives.
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FlaGranny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #32
46. Heredity would not have anything to do with
ideology, true. But a person's beliefs and actions rely mightily on upbringing. The standards of the parents are passed to the offspring. This doesn't always "take", of course, but many times it does, and we usually get an offspring with many characteristics of the parents.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #46
51. And how many gay men and lesbians came out of Xtian fundie homes?
So much for upbringing!

I will remind all of you (again!) that Cruz Bustamante disavows all of these idiotic charges about Arnold's father and whatever he was doing with his wick 30 years ago!

Thank God Bustamante is following his own counsel in his campaign for Governor.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #32
52. How Rove Is Responcible For The DEATHS of 70 US Agents
would have been a better headline, that is the main idea of the story.

peace
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damnraddem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 03:20 PM
Response to Original message
34. This is a dupe. But it highlights that we need ...
to start refering to Karl as 'Karl Roverer.'
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
38. A "Roverer" is a Land Rover owner/fan?
That's all a google of the word "Roverer" turned up.
Doesn't seem that K. H. Roverer had very much "Fame"...
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. I found a ton of stuff on the name Roverer
and most of it was in German.
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #39
53. I found German language stuff too, but it was about Land Rovers...
Nothing on "Karl Heinz"

Remember when Al "broke" the story about the "Nazi" stamp the Post Office was gonna issue? It was an Airmail stamp w/an Art Deco WPA-style eagle on it.

Al see Nazis everywhere.
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Emillereid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 03:43 PM
Response to Original message
40. The Nazi connection with the Bush administration
is beginning to look like something more than a coincidence. Makes you wonder about all the Jewish neo-crazies. Unconsciously do they seek their revenge by adopting the power and ideology of their historical enemy. The Bushits seem weirder and weirder every day.
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Code_Name_D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #40
54. I had the same thought. Arnold too.
I am reluctant to hand a sun for the sins of a grandfather. However, I am aware of three Nazi links. And these arn't just "gards at boarder" eather, but extremly high ranking Fashist who held power in Hitler's campain.

Perhaps we need to ask some hard questions here.
1) What was the fate of these grandfathers? Were they prosicuted, or sheltered by the CIA?

2) Did they reform, or offer an apoligy for their past?

3) Did they have any roll in the upbringing of their grandson?

4) How about other famley members? Have they made expresions that are pro-Nazi.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
41. These folks in BFEE do have intergenerational ties to The Third Reich
and appear to be following Nazi playbook with some variations.

When we discuss spooks it must be remembered that the National Security Act of 1947 was the mother of all intelligence failures because it gave "ex-Nazis" identities and jobs as Americans doing national security work accountable to no one.

Not just individuals but, in some cases, entire families were PAPERCLIPed into our nation, some became prominent Americans.

As to the veracity of Al Martin alone it's spotty. He is definitely hooked up to spookland and I for one have benefited from some of his articles, and laughed at others. For one of the more credible ones planting WMD in Iraq seems logical.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/IRA308A.html

In this case, {considering we have an organization known as VIPS/Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity} Karl Rove's kin are important because of all the crimes this fascist amoral bastard has committed personally.
http://bnfp.org/neighborhood/Lemann_Rove_NYM.htm

I'm trying to find other sources and check this out, one problem so far has been my inability to read German, but there are many references to Karl Heinz Roverer.



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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. I have someone to read German
if you want anything translatted let me know. I'll be seeing him on Friday.
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hippiechick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #41
45. Hi Bob ... Ich spreche Deutsch ....
Send me the links in question, I'll have at 'em when I get a chance.
I'm rusty, though, so it might take me awhile.


:hi: Hope all is well back home !! Say :hi: to Charron for me !!


:hippie:
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Oilwellian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
48. I question Rove's "reliable sources"
According to reliable sources, as well as our own Al Martin Raw.com investigation, Karl Rove is, in fact, the grandson of Karl Heinz Roverer, the gauleiter of Mecklenburg, who was also a partner and senior engineer of Roverer Sud-Deutche Ingenieurbro AG. They built Birchenau, the concentration camp in Nazi Germany.

Although I don't doubt that Karl Rove is as sleazy as they come, I question Al Martin's "reliable sources" on the above statement. The Gauleiter of Mecklenburg during Hitler's reign was:

Friedrich HILDEBRANDT: Gauleiter in Mecklenburg. SS. Obergruppenfhrer. Tried bv a United States War Crimes court at Dachau in March-April 1947, for complicity in murders of U.S. airmen. Sentenced to be hanged 2.4.47.
http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/WCC/warcrimgau.htm



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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
49. This thread deserves a kick.
:dem:
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cliss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 10:49 PM
Response to Original message
50. There must be a way
to find this out. Aren't there dozens of web sites which specialize in family trees & genealogy?

We should be able to find that out without too much effort.
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-04-03 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #50
57. I sent a query to snopes.com...
...to see if they can debunk it or not.
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