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SnowBack Donating Member (335 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 05:22 PM
Original message
I look forward to the day...
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 05:25 PM by SnowBack
...when we will be free to walk down the streets without being called "faggot" or "queer" or "dyke". When we can hold hands in public without fearing for our safety.

I look forward to the day when we can go to work and do our jobs without being called names. When we are not told we are flaunting our sexuality by putting up a picture of our husbands and wives or telling the truth about what we did on the weekend.

I look forward to the day when we will be free to attend school without teachers blaming us for AIDS, students taunting us for being "effeminate" and having to listen to principals excuse students for using "Gay" to mean "stupid".

I look forward to the day when we will be able to bring our husbands and wives into this country without having to tell the Immigration officials that they are just "friends". When we will be able to move from state to state without losing our rights. When we do not have to move to another country to find acceptance.

I look forward to the day when talking about family values includes our families. When Gay sons and Lesbian daughters are not thrown out of the house for who they love. When Transgendered men and women are allowed to live proudly without being mocked or abused on freakish talk shows.

I look forward to the day when politicians stop using our lives as a tool to incite hatred. When even the "supportive" politicians are no longer willing to abandon us for the sake of political expediency.

Finally, I look forward to the day when all Americans understand that we are their sons and daughters and aunts and uncles and cousins and mothers and fathers, and teachers and doctors and ministers and farmers, and immigrants and we deserve equality.
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Danocrat Donating Member (485 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
1. Unfortunately
That day, thanks to Bush and his right-wing fundies, will be postponed by a few decades. And we were doing so well.
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nikatnyte Donating Member (169 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. It's not quite that bad
As evil as I believe BushCo is, this administration is not going to set gay rights back "decades". There's too much momentum. The gay civil rights train left the station some time ago and, despite a few minor derailments, is still chugging along. We get our knickers in a twist because of these anti-gay marriage state measures but forget that it wasn't too long ago when the mere thought of people discussing the possibility of gay marraige would have been laughable. I know when it comes to civil rights nobody wants to wait, but have faith -- we'll be there sooner than you think.
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Neshanic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #5
12. Not that bad. Go to a fundamentalist church. See bad up close.
Then report back on your bright shiny future.
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ablbodyed Donating Member (610 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #5
17. Not that bad?>>>>>>>>>>>
we gays will be rounded up, 're-educated', or worse, before next elections. Any of the very few courageous heteros that will stand up for us will be crushed, and that will be the end of THAT. Too hysterical? The writing is on the wall, just as it was for Jews in Germany and Austria in 1933; and blacks in immediate post-reconstruction south. We're the Kikes and Niggars of this society.
The xtians will cheer, and the Christians will DO NOTHING
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realisticphish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #17
54. actually
this christian will put up a fight, no matter how long it takes, and i know a lot of other christians who will as well


:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat
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proudncdem Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #5
27. RE: It's not that bad
It wasn't that long ago when the thought of presidential candidates discussing marriage would have been unimaginable. You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. Even if it gets worse before it gets better progress is inevitable. Maybe that's way there are some people who are fighting it so hard......desperation perhaps?
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demmutti Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #5
55. I wish I were so optimistic...
I'm not gay or lesbian, but I'm attempting to raise respectful sons in an intolerant country within an even more intolerant state. It's an uphill battle, but one I'm winning so far. I just don't know how long the trend will last if we stay here; after all, they're both heterosexual teenage males.

I've also made a commitment to expose my kids to various societies abroad during their upbringing, and it didn't take them long as young children to figure out how far we lag behind other nations of similar socioeconomic profiles in terms of human acceptance.

In France, my boys noted that male and female couples walked hand-in-hand unabashedly, and even--gasp!-- sometimes kissed in public. One catch: gay couples still can't marry legally in France. The institution of marriage in Europe, though, is considered a far more civil than religious bond anyway.

All one has to do to find a paragon of human rights and civil liberties is to look to the north. Gay /lesbian marriage is legal in Canada...and has been since the days of Trudeau. Few know that gay and lesbian American couples can marry there, too, without renouncing their American citizenship.

I wish I could agree with the person who wrote 'we're not that far away' in terms of gay rights, etc....but I think recent political events throughout the country have set human rights in general, and gay rights in particular, further back than any of us want to believe or admit. To draw a parallel, apply the 'we're not that far away'logic to the status of US females ( a 'minority' group that comprises MORE THAN HALF of our country) for a moment. I was in GRADE SCHOOL (I'm 38 now) when stouthearted feminists and their supporters fought for the passage of the ERA and predicted a relatively imminent election of a female president. Those seemingly realistic goals, which truly appeared to be within our grasp at a hopeful time in our history, have yet to be reached, decades later--and there is far from any guarantee that they ever will be. What blocks their attainment is the very same thing that prevented a sane man from living in the White House for the next four years: out-of-control Christian insanity.

(By the way, Hillary in '08? Sounds nice, but I give Ronald McDonald a better chance.)

Canada has had female leaders; Canada recognizes and legalizes gay marriage; Canada provides universal health care; Canada has a violent crime rate dramatically lower than ours. Most notably, despite all of these markers of an obviously compassionate society, Canada is far less dominated and shaped by 'Christian values' than its southern neighbor. Having spent a great deal of time in Montreal and Toronto over the years, I now encourage my kids to strongly consider settling there as adults. They understand why, and they take the suggestion seriously.

Patriotism is a fine concept, but I believe that our status as humans who deserve respect far outweighs allegiance to any particular government.

As a closing thought, I'll never forget attending a performance at my son's school during which a group of children sang 'Kookaburra'; when the line 'how gay your life must be' came up, the 'g' word was replaced by 'happy.' That didn't exactly make for a mellifluous performance, and it served to show third graders how absurd the lives of American adults must be.

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buckettgirl Donating Member (608 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
2. Love is love.
Love knows no bounds. No gender, no race.
Love is tolerance and acceptance.
Love survives through everything, never weaking.
Love supports and encourages.
Love never makes another hide in shame.

When people can embrace the idea of love, then you will truly live free. I do hope that happens during our lifetimes.
Never give up!
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
3. Good article in Houston Chronicle today
along similar lines.

Gay Citizen to America: They lied to you about us
Keep your religion; what we want is legal
By GORDON P. PHELPS


Dear America:

Now that you've had a chance to catch your breath, we really need to take a moment and reflect on what has occurred.

I'm sorry to say this, but you've been lied to about who I am and what exactly I'm about. You were told some mistruths, such as that I, a gay citizen, want to change your laws and religious definitions of marriage and force churches to marry same-sex couples. Also, that I am assaulting the very fabric of our nation, that I want to marry two, three or more persons or even an animal or two.

You were told this by partisan politicians who unfortunately weren't interested in your well-being, nor mine, nor anyone's but their own. Many different parties debated this issue anxiously: the media, politicians, judicial bodies, to name a few.

Yet strangely, during all of this, no one asked me, "Gay Citizen, what exactly is it that you want?"

As after the fact as it may be, I think you really deserve to hear the truth.

The truth is: I don't want to change your or anyone else's religion. What your faith believes in and promotes is between you and your congregation and your God/Yahweh/Allah/etc. Yes, even if that includes condemning homosexuality and refusing to "marry" same-sex couples.
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/editorial/outl...


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daveskilt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
4. amen!
since its a sunday and I just got back from church.
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Pushed To The Left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 01:54 AM
Response to Original message
6. Welcome to DU, Snowback!
Edited on Mon Nov-15-04 01:55 AM by Pushed To The Left
We are with you 100% :thumbsup: I believe that day is coming!
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UL_Approved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 02:41 AM
Response to Original message
7. Very true
Having an underclass of individuals for any reason is wrong. Homosexual activity has been persecuted in this country for a long time. Don't lose too much hope, though. Europe is starting to allow civil union and other benefits to same-sex couples. This country is going the opposite way now, but I suspect that the old stigma of homosexuality will fade in time. Who knows? We may move away from it over time, or it may take major protests. I just hope that we don't have incidents like Alabama in the 1960's over it.
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helnwhls Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 02:53 AM
Response to Original message
8. Welcome to DU!
I am looking forward with you.

Glad you are here!
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LynzM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 07:07 AM
Response to Original message
9. I hope that day is soon!
:hug:
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MotownLew Donating Member (118 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 07:26 AM
Response to Original message
10. Peace. n/t
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wellstone dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 07:47 AM
Response to Original message
11. Welcome, welcome
thank you for a much-needed message. A new day will come, with courage, and with love.
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seeker4ever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 08:28 AM
Response to Original message
13. Homosexuality is today's rightwing version of the race issue-50's - 60's
Soicially retarded right wing bigots are the so called "moral" voters.
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Yuugal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 08:30 AM
Response to Original message
14. flame me
But if I don't say it I'll never forgive myself. I also look forward to a day..........WHEN MY GAY BROTHERS AND SISTERS LEARN TO STFU DURING ELECTIONS YEARS! Was is really necessary to start the marriage fuss in the spring of 2004? In 2005 K/E would have advanced many of the causes dear to you....in 2004, gay marriage managed to sail the USS Democrat right into the rocks of religious intolerance, drowning all onboard. Please don't take my outburst as an attack on you, your lifestyle, or anything else about gays except that your timing sucks.

As long as I'm dousing myself in flammables here, ummmmmmmmmmm, gun-haters? Can you guys STFU too next time? Repeat after me: We love guns, guns defend freedom, I should be able to own a howitzer if I can make the payments.......there. That just got us an extra 15% of the vote. See how easy that was? Nobody says we actually have to make it any easier to own a gun once we are in, but if we stopped falling into the booby-trap issues we'd do alot better at the polls. People weren't buying that nonsense about how dems were gonna take everyone's bible away, but lots of people DID fall for the line that we are always working to take everyone's guns away.
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Massachusetts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. "looking forward to the day"
Well, we are trying our best to be inclusive in the good old Bay State, (thank goodness I live here at this time in history). The unfortunate thing is that you have to build from the ground up, begin with a child's behavioral traits, so that their understanding, acceptance, and tolerance, of their fellow humans traits is innate. BUT that good Ol' God Shield keeps gettin in the way.....
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fwiff Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. Oh, please. If anyone's buying into crap, it's you.
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Atlant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #14
21. You're technically wrong, and a dubious tactician.
Edited on Mon Nov-15-04 11:11 AM by Atlant
> Was is really necessary to start the marriage fuss in the spring of 2004?

Probably not, and *THEY DIDN'T*. Goodrich (the Massachusetts case you're
probably referring to) dates from incidents that took place in March
and April of 2001, just two months after a new president was sworn in.
The case was first filed on April 11th, 2001.

Given that, one might ask you "Just *WHEN* should people file suit on
behalf of their rights?" If 44 months before the next presidential
election isn't a good and convenient time, when is?

Perhaps the Democrats would fare better if they actually *STOOD UP
PROUDLY* for some of these issues. This might provoke some of the
non-voting left to start voting again (because pandering to the
mushy middle seems to be a well-tested, sure-losing strategy).

Atlant
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Yuugal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #21
33. maybe and maybe
I might have the time frame wrong but my internal MSM recorder shows a surge of activity relating to alot of people waiting in line to get married in san fran was it? Whenever it was, the fuss that stuck in most people's minds(my guess) is the one about a year or so ago that got alot of airplay.


Can a single issue sink us, I'd say no. Can the same combination of issues (god,guns and gays) make sure we are always playing the "swing-state" game and getting our butts kicked time and time again? I say yes. You are correct when you say pandering to the middle didnt work back then very well because we had most of the middle already and the left stayed home or voted for Gus Hall. ;)

But, and here is where my strategery differs from yours, my view is that things have changed to the point where lefties were active as hell this time and if we hunt the middle a little harder next time perhaps we can do better. One way to do that is to work on the 3 G's a bit. I will never except treating gays any less equal than anyone else, so that rules out one G. But guns and god are up for grabs to the smartest player IMHO.
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #14
24. That is just ridiculous
Edited on Mon Nov-15-04 11:49 AM by Midlodemocrat
...why should anyone not push their own agenda forward during an election year? The RW pushed theirs, tax cuts, etc. and to blame this on the gay and lesbian community is just plain ridiculous. What about abortion? What about terror? Those were more of an issue during this election than gay marriage. The states that had gay marriage on the ballot all voted against it, and Kerry still got almost 1/2 the vote. They used scare tactics about the war on terror, the same way your stock broker does about which fund you should invest in and whether or not it is aggressive enough to prevent you from eating cat food in your declining years.
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proudncdem Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #14
25. yes it was necessary
Was is really necessary to start the marriage fuss in the spring of 2004?
I'm gay 365 days a year every year. Even in an election year. I'll be proud and demand all the rights that I deserve EVERY day until I get them. That is the only way I will get them.

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Yuugal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 01:39 PM
Original message
be proud!
But I'd play the "game" differently. Our side is a bit idealistic at times. I look at it like this: Bush wants to wage war for oil, enrich his friends out of the public trough, make it easier for the govt to spy on us and make it even easier for his party to perpetuate their power. Was that his platform? NO!

So whats wrong with us playing the same game and targeting/marketing our message better so that people who aren't currently understanding the fact that we stand for them don't get scared away? Take a good hard look at the electoral map and you'll see alot of red that has no business being red at all except for the 3 G's.

Lets take god for instance: I don't have a problem with him except when his followers litter the earth with millions of leaflets telling me Kerry is satan. I don't think they'd be so quick to fire the printing presses up if they weren't so afraid of us though. To this democrat, whether the court building they arraign me in for crapping on the white house breakfast buffet has a statue of the ten commandments in front of it or not really doesn't make much of a difference. The left always falls into the god trap so easily it makes me sick.

I'm not saying we should change our core beliefs, just that we need to choose, time, and frame our battles more carefully.
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Atlant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
37. The problem is that it's *NEVER* time to...
Edited on Mon Nov-15-04 02:17 PM by Atlant
The problem is that using this sort of reasoning, it's *NEVER* time
to take on any tough issues like Universal Health Care, homosexual
rights, women's rights, universal suffrage, etc.

Sooner or later, a party that claims to stand for people must actually
take the hard position of *STANDING FOR PEOPLE!*, even if the
Republicans are running in the same election.

Atlant
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proudncdem Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
42. give me a break
My right to visit my sick partner in the hospital is not an issue to be framed at a certain time. These are issues I deal with every day. They don't go away.
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Technowitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #14
35. Sorry, but they told African Americans the same thing in the 50s
Didn't work then; won't work now.

Here's a lighter.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #14
43. Thank you for personally attacking us...if only I could return the deed
Edited on Mon Nov-15-04 03:52 PM by nothingshocksmeanymo
I read all your comments on this matter. While I can't deny that the hysteria created by the issue of gay marriage was real, I also remembered during those SF wedding ceremonies seeing people who had been together for DECADES having marriage ceremonies.

Nobody TIMED this issue to occur in an election year.

You may pretend you are tolerant but your message is "get to the back of the bus."

You can pretend you aren't scapegoating but you just did.



I'll make a deal with you...I'll STFU if you WTFU (wake the fuck up)


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proudncdem Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. nicely put
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. Thanks and welcome to DU
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Duncan Grant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #14
52. What a bunch of narcissistic whining! Boo-hoo-hoo.
Sorry but we all missed the memo reminding us that Yuugal had this election cycle all worked out - we would have won if only we had listened to you!

It would be in good form for you to apologize to your "gay brothers and sisters" and explain that your frustrations are entirely constructed by your own internal biases - this was an inside job that you've pulled on yourself. Oh and one more thing - why the hell are you screaming at us? :eyes:

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Elruin Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
16. Indeed we all look forward to that day
Here is a very interesting article on...believe it or not...

FOX NEWS:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,138575,00.html

The article sites a study found on webmd.com that shows that children raised by same-sex parents fair just as well as children raised by opposite-sex parents in self-esteem and adaptiveness.

Infact, children raised by same-sex parents are "more connected" in school!

Eat that moral values.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
19. I'm so with you on this one
I'm not gay but I'm polyamorous and each of these things apply to me and mine as well. That's one of the reasons (along with the inherent rightness of it) that we have been so supportive of gays and why we have kept our mouths shut about our cause, biding our time, so that maybe, just maybe you folk could get your foot in the door. I won't actually pretend that that is 100% altruistic, because those rights that you win will eventually be extended to us as well. But for us to stand as loudly and proudly as you have would have pushed back both of our causes. Unfortunately, your cause has taken quite a blow, but I truly believe that the legislative efforts will not, in the long run, greatly impede the social shift toward tolerance that has been coming your way since the 60s. You folk are no where near there yet, but you are so much further along than before and that little fucktwit in the White-house will bluster much, but I hope, achieve little.
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rbishop Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
20. I'm so sorry
As a non-gay-white-married-southern-woman, I weep at what has taken place over this election. I am so sorry that Gay people in this country have been so maligned. I am so sorry that you don't have the rights that are DUE you as an American. I am so sorry there are so many evil minded people masquerading as Christian's. I am so sorry for my country. The shame of this will follow us through the centuries. We have entered the new dark ages. I am so sorry.

Renee Bishop
Atlanta, GA
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motely36 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. Thanks for your kind words Renee
and welcome to DU!

I do believe the time is coming. I know the last election looks like a major setback, but I really believe it is inevitable!
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Technowitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #20
36. Thanks Renee, and welcome to DU
And I say this as a woman in a seven year same-sex marriage -- that has rights only through the intercession of a good attorney and California's domestic partnership laws.

The DP is invalid everywhere else in the U.S. And our legal paperwork is in dubious status in roughly 10 states now, perhaps more.

I honestly can't call myself an American anymore -- because there's too much of this country where I dare not travel, much less actually have the choice to live there.
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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
23. Please come to San Francisco!
You are more than welcome here. I'm sure there are a few assholes even here, but mostly you can walk freely and bee yourself and not only will people not ridicule you, they won't even notice (unless they are tourists).


I kind of understand your feelings, because I felt such a sense of relief that I could call Bush the piece of filth that he IS here without worry of being pounced on by a bunch of right-wing freaks.

Okay, not everyone can live here, but please come visit a while!
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SammyBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
26. What? You want that?
This is America, pal! There is no place for that in this America! Take your socialist, commie, pinko-hippe, pot-smoking, liberal idea of equality and get out of here!

My lord and master, George Bush*, says that idea only gives comfort to the enemies! You've got Queer Eye for the Straight Guy! What MORE DO YOU WANT???


Note: This is satire. I truly feel your pain. My people have been the world's scapegoat since the son of a carpenter got nailed on two wooden boards by the romans. So, I understand.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
28. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
proudncdem Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. we have a homosexual lobby?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. The VRWC has a homosexual lobby?
Now I'm really confused. :shrug:
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. Are you saying gays are not "real victims of oppression"
or are you saying they are, but it's their fault for not staying in the closet?

Since you and I aren't gay, it takes some listening and thought to get a sense of the difficulties they experience. Of course we don't need to "proclaim" that we're straight -- that's part of being the "norm." I hope you'll spend some time thinking about what the gay community is actually saying and why. They're not "beating" anybody with anything, they're not trying to "re-write" any religion.

Again... You need to start listening.
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FM Arouet666 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. Sacrifice?
Sacrifice your freedom of expression, sacrifice your security with fear of threats or violence, sacrifice your ability to compete in the work place, sacrifice your inalienable right that all men are created equal.

How I hate to see people proclaiming that one group has suffered far more over the years than another, to justify an argument. Should we exclude homosexuals from the totals of the Holocaust because their numbers were smaller and, as you state, they choose their life style?

Marriage has both a secular legal meaning and a religious meaning. And I suspect that you are wrong, there are churches which would marry gay couples, if it were legal to do so. If we are to be forced to accept marriage in the religious form, the state should remove it entirely from secular doctrine. Civil unions for everyone, in the eyes of the state.

The whole tone of your post suggests that homosexuals should go back into the closet and you seem to suggest that they deserve, or at least, should expect the negativity brought down upon them. I just don't see how you can generate such a tone after reading the leading tread. Sad.

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Nimble_Idea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
38. your more likely to be attacked in the south
if you are a gay. Or just a red state in general. Especially if your holding hands outside.
you will never get a good job if your boss finds out.
It's sad, but something Christians preach in their churches , is that your an abomination. Straight up hate speech in the churches, and they get tax exemptions. It's pretty sad.
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Nimble_Idea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
39. your more likely to be attacked in the south
if you are a gay. Or just a red state in general. Especially if your holding hands outside.
you will never get a good job if your boss finds out.
It's sad, but something Christians preach in their churches , is that your an abomination. Straight up hate speech in the churches, and they get tax exemptions. It's pretty sad.
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proudncdem Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. out in a red state
I've lived in two red states and have been out at work in both with no problems. I worked for a large clinic in north carolina and even took my girlfriend to our christmas party. People talk alot about the evils of homosexuality, but when they are confronted with a real life gay person who seems decent and nice they often have an entirely different reaction. I don't know what this means it's just been my experience.
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lynintenn Donating Member (177 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #39
47. I think the vision of gays in the south
is men is pink tutus and women with crew cuts combat boots.
I attended the Halloween parade in the Castres district of SF a few years ago and was stuck by the many beautiful couples in the crowds there. Some of the beautiful men and women I have ever seen.
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proudncdem Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. you might be surprised
Edited on Mon Nov-15-04 04:36 PM by proudncdem
I think if you visited the south you would find some people who believe that (you could find them all over the country by the way.) You are however just as guilty of stereotyping as they are. As some one who is gay and out in the south I can promise that you will find a million ideas and attitudes about gay people. Some of the very surprising. I've encountered more people who are accepting of me and my girlfriend than I have people who have a problem with us. Not all gay men wear tuttus, not all lesbians have crew cuts, not all southerners are bigots. Have you ever visited the south?
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seaj11 Donating Member (506 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
40. So do I.
Excellent post, and :hi: welcome to DU!
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AldebTX Donating Member (739 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 04:00 PM
Original message
Just A Thought
I live in Dallas. I am Gay. I travel all over the country to the Red and the Blue states. I have been treated no better and no worse anyplace else I have visited with my partner. The only place I have been questioned about sharing a king sized bed with my partner was actually at a hotel in NYC. I have not been attacked on the streets here and don't live in fear of my life because I reside in the south.

But I am digressing.

What I really wanted to point out is how we have all fallen into the lovely trap that has been made for us. I have watched people flame others for the part of the country they are from, their sexuality and not being able to keep quiet about who you are and what you believe during an election year and even about being too inclusive and not middle of the road enough.

Trust me I know the freepers that peruse our pages chuckle every time we attack each other. Its exactly what they want. The wedge issues are NOT going to go away. They obviously work. Read all the threads on Democratic Underground if you have any doubts about that.

When we shut up the gays and the anti-gun folks, they will move on to the Women who feel they have the right to choose. When we shut them up they will move on to the next "anti" American idea. If we shut up too many people who identify themselves as democrats we might find ourselves left with no party or worse yet...a party of freeper want a bes.

I'll be voting Independent or Green before that happens.
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AldebTX Donating Member (739 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
46. Just A Thought
I live in Dallas. I am Gay. I travel all over the country to the Red and the Blue states. I have been treated no better and no worse anyplace else I have visited with my partner. The only place I have been questioned about sharing a king sized bed with my partner was actually at a hotel in NYC. I have not been attacked on the streets here and don't live in fear of my life because I reside in the south.

But I am digressing.

What I really wanted to point out is how we have all fallen into the lovely trap that has been made for us. I have watched people flame others for the part of the country they are from, their sexuality and not being able to keep quiet about who you are and what you believe during an election year and even about being too inclusive and not middle of the road enough.

Trust me I know the freepers that peruse our pages chuckle every time we attack each other. Its exactly what they want. The wedge issues are NOT going to go away. They obviously work. Read all the threads on Democratic Underground if you have any doubts about that.

When we shut up the gays and the anti-gun folks, they will move on to the Women who feel they have the right to choose. When we shut them up they will move on to the next "anti" American idea. If we shut up too many people who identify themselves as democrats we might find ourselves left with no party or worse yet...a party of freeper want a bes.

I'll be voting Independent or Green before that happens.
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Hey Zeus Donating Member (110 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
49. me too...
i also look forward to the day that the gay community does not vote for the enemy in such high numbers. perhaps those days are close together?
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Manfred Donating Member (12 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
50. It will come sooner or later...
just have patience
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V Lee Donating Member (136 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
51. Amen! eom
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mermaid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 05:37 AM
Response to Original message
53. Applauds!!
As a transgender woman, I read this and damn near broke down crying!! Yes, this is our dearest dream.

and for anyone who says "it isn't as bad as the OP says it is," I have two things to say to you:

1. Bullshit!! It damn well IS that bad out there!
2. If you think it isn't, you obviously haven't had to LIVE with the dehumanizing aspect of all this shit. You obviously are not openly GLBT.

Let me tell you what...I am a post-operative TS, 2 years post-op now, male-to-female. I recently, at my new job, had to virtually drop my pants for my employer to verify my right to use women's restroom facilities!
I quite literally had to go in with a letter from my physician, stating I'd had the surgery...which is as close to forcing me to drop my pants my employer could get without LITERALLY making me do it.

There is one other TS where I work, she is pre-op, and they have a unisex restroom set up for her. I was told to use that one. I told them I'd sit all day and let my bladder burst before I would participate in my own dehumanization, indignification, and before I would perpetuate the fear, intolerance, hatred, and bigotry...now that I was, in fact, post-op.

I told them that, if it happened to be the most convenient at the time, I'd use the unisex restroom...unless I was FORCED into it, in which case, I would completely refuse to use it. Because that would be participating in my own dehumanization and demonization.

We argued a bit, and I was not going to back down. I finally asked them to give me ANY single identifier more fundamental to one's own self-image and identity than thier gender. If they could, I'd shut up. Of course, they couldn't. So, after providing the letter (which I'm not sure they were even legally allowed to demand) I won the argument.

I'll leave with this factoid, for those who think it "isn't that bad" out there...

Did you know a post-op transsexual woman, statistically, has a one-in-seventeen chance of getting married, post-op...and a one-in-twelve chance of being MURDERED, post-op? You read that right...a post-op transgender woman is more likely to get MURDERED than to get MARRIED!!!

go here for more...
http://www.rememberingourdead.org

And don't forget that Nov.20th is Transgender Memorial Day...the day in which we choose to honor our dead brothers and sisters, who have fallen to hate violence.

I don't know about you straight people, but I, personally, have have four people I knew and loved intimately...MURDERED in hate crimes. Can YOU say that?
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be-considerate Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
56. This is my first post on the Internet
and I'm nervous about it. What SnowBack is saying is true. I am a Black gay woman and I am scared. My partner and I are both scared that something is happening and we will be the ones to feel the pain. I live in the Bay Area of CA and even here I feel the looks of hate from the religous right and the republicans. My wife and I walk in Oakland and people make hateful comments. Nothing overtly threatening, but they scare us anyway. I don't know if Bush is behind it, but there is a coincidence here that Gay people are suffering increasing violence and hate crimes since Nov. 2nd. We see it all over the Bay Area and it is frightening.
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