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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 04:45 PM
Original message
Go Tell It On The Mountain

(1) "Here is the true meaning and value of compassion and nonviolence when it helps us to see the enemy's point of view, to hear his questions, to know his assessment of ourselves. For from his view we may indeed see the basic weaknesses of our own condition, and if we are mature, we may learn and grow and profit from the wisdom of our brothers who are called the opposition." -- Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.

This passage is from what I believe was the greatest speech in American history. It was delivered by Martin on April 4, 1967, exactly a year before his death. It was King's most revolutionary speech, an address to the Clergy and Laity Concerned meeting at the Riverside Church in New York City to discuss a war that threatened to destroy the soul of this nation. Though King had previously expressed concern about the Vietnam War, this was the first time he directly attacked the Johnson administration's war policies. The content of this speech is believed to be what caused the dark forces in America to take this prophet's life.

As I watch President Bush in his 11-12 press conference with Tony Blair, I am reminded of the situation King faced in 1967. Yet with Bush, we are dealing with a man who appears to have none of Lyndon Johnson's considerable skills; he does, however, appear to have almost all of LBJ's tragic flaws. His gleeful glibness that is a result of the election has distorted his judgement on Iraq to a point that is more dangerous to America than was Vietnam.

The pompous "mandate" that is used to justify his war policy is built upon a foundation of "religious and moral values" that ranks with any of the worldly kings in the Old Testament. And so I believe that the religious people in America should look to our prophet, Rev. King, in order to determine what path we must take.

Just as in the biblical days with deluded tyrants, people need to look to a higher source for inspiration. We must find unity among the Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Jainists, those who practice Taoism, Confucianism, Zoroastianism, Sikhism, the Native American religions, and our Pagan brothers and Sisters. Yet I am convinced that the greatest responsibility falls onto the shoulders of the Christians, because this terrible evil is being committed in the name of our churches. It is a yoke we must shoulder.


(2) The Morality of War

In this week's Irish Echo (www.irishecho.com ), the largest Irish-American newspaper in the country, the talented author Peter McDermott writes in the cover article that this "Election begs a question: Whose beliefs matter more?" The Mac Diarmada sept of Connacht always ask such beautiful questions as a teaching tool, a tactic they perfected for dealing with tyrants.

Peter quotes Drew Christiansen S. J., the executive editor of "America," the Jesuit magazine, who says, "A significant group of Catholics regard this war as immoral." Of the major US churches, Christiansen notes that "only the Southern Baptist Convention supported the war policy in the lead-up to the invasion in Iraq."

McDermott notes that Lancet, the British medical journal, reports that the numbers of women and children being wounded and killed by our air strikes is ten times what our media reports. General Tommy Franks said, "We don't do body counts," even though the Geneva Convention requires an army to do just that. We have moved beyond the international agreements that have helped define human decency.

McDermott writes that "in Ireland, a country where traditional Catholic teachings remain influential in the public sphere, America's decision to go to war" was strongly opposed, and continues to be identified as immoral. Yet this was not considered by the fundamentalists to be worthy of consideration in the "debate on morals" in the 2004 campaign.


(3) "I don't think the people of the country know much about Vietnam and I think they care a hell of a lot less." - LBY to Richard Russell; 5-27-64; "Taking Charge" by M. Beschloss, page 365.

John Kennedy picked LBJ for his vice presidential running mate for two reasons: Johnson could carry Texas, and he had been the "master of the senate." Yet Johnson had remarkably little background in foreign affairs. When he became president, he was aware that he would need to rely upon Kennedy's "wise men" for advice.

Despite their counsel, LBJ would simply never grasp the realities of Vietnam. That LBJ was a bright man is beyond debate; yet he was grossly ignorant in the areas of Vietnam's history and culture. He never progressed beyond seeing the Vietnamese in terms of his prior experience with Mexican-Americans, and his view of the North Vietnamese leaders in the context of his grandfather's experience with "wild" Indians.

Likewise, LBJ would never fully understand other minority groups in America, most notably blacks. He was furious at what he believed was King's betrayal in the "A Time to Break Silence" speech from 4-4-67, and didn't comprehend the reason young black men did not want to serve in Vietnam. Hence, as older DUers will recall, LBJ made a pathetic attempt at a patriotic pep talk, which included his infamous telling the soldiers to "bring home that coonskin." It was hard to imagine that any president could ever be more out of touch with reality; this may be the most outstanding accomplishment of the Bush presidency.


(4) "Our people long ago established Vietnam as an independant nation with its own civilization. We have our own mountains and rivers, our own customs and traditions." - Le Loi ; 15th century guerrilla warrior defending Vietnam from Mongol invaders.

Ho Chi Minh was a student of history. He was educated in Paris for seven years, and later in Moscow. His studies ranged from the US-Indian wars, to Marxism. However, his primary interest was his own country's history.

He knew that the histric regions of Tonkin (north), Annam (middle), and Cochin (south) had been established as a distinct nation by 200bc. From the 111bc invasion by China to the 1960s "involvement" by the United States, the Vietnamese history was one of near constant fighting outside aggressors.

Ho appreciated poetry, and often quoted the words of Nguyen Trai, who joined forces with Le Loi: "Although we have been at times strong/ at times weak/ we have no time lacked heroes."

LBJ's inability to understand this simple verse led to the death of thousands of Americans and Vietnamese.


(5) "If you wish to conduct offensive war you must know the men employed by the enemy. Are they wise or stupid, clever or clumsy? Having assessed their qualities, you prepare appropriate measures." - Sun Tzu; quoted by Michael Scheuer; "Imperial Hubris;" page 103

Michael Scheuer was CI's leading expert on Usama bin Laden, until his recently announced retirement from the agency. In "Imperial Hubris," his second book on the growing conflict between the United States and the Muslim world, Scheuer details the extent that bin Laden and other al Qaeda leaders have studied American history. He quotes from Islamic journals that "describe al Qaeda's intention to follow Clausewitz's principle of attacking its foe's 'center of gravity.' " Their goal is to make "sure to direct all available focus against the center of gravity during the great offensive." (pages 100-101)

This is an extremely important concept for us to understand. Scheuer felt strongly enough about warning the American public about the actual nature of this "global war" that he published his two books as "Anonymous." He is clearly no fan of the Clinton administration, but he recognizes that the Bush administration is completely out of touch with the nature of the opposition.

In Vietnam, the al Qaeda leaders have concluded, the "center of gravity" was the American soldiers; when the public saw the reality of the war on TV, as compared to the lies about a "light at the end of a tunnel" and inflated "body counts," the nation turned on the war. When the middle class withdrew their support for the war, the Vietnamese had achieved victory.

Today, Scheuer reports, al Qaeda believes the media is so firmly controlled by US business and security interests that the public has little or no exposure to the truth about the war in Iraq. Thus the "center of gravity" has become the American economy. Al Qaeda leaders believe the American public so worships "the Almighty dollar" that they will not withdraw support for Bush's wars until the American economy is bankrupt. Scheuer makes a strong case that this is exactly what Usama bin Laden is attempting to do.

If we put aside our beliefs about who may have been responsible for 9-11, and suspend judgement about the advisability of the war in Afghanistan, but keep in mind the "threat" posed by the WMDs we were told existed in Iraq, the world looks different than what is reported by Fox News. From this detached stance, we can look at the affects of these three things on the United States' economy. The fact that Halliburton resembles a pack of jackals attempting to capitalize on the situation only quickens the pace that the Bush administration will destroy our economy. One need only remember what LBJ called "that bitch of a war" did to his plans for a Great Society. The time will come when a wheel barrel full of Halliburton stock won't buy a loaf of bread.


(6) "Bin Laden has been precise in telling America the reasons he is waging war on us. None of the reasons have anything to do with our freedom, liberty, and democracy, but have everything to do with U.S. policies and actions in the Muslim world." - Scheuer; pg x in preface of "Imperial Hubris."

Scheuer believes the Bush administration has done a grave disservice to our country by painting a picture of Usama bin Laden as a rabid mad-man who hates us for our freedoms. By creating a one-dimensional monster, the administration seeks to divert attention from the the real issues we face. "What the United States does in formulating an implementing policies affecting the Muslim world, however, is infinitely more inflammatory. While there may be a few militant Muslims out there who would blow up themselves and others because they are offended by McDonald's restaurants, Iowa's early presidential primary, and the seminude, fully pregnant Demi Moore on Esquire's cover, they are exactly that : few, and no threat at all to U.S. national security. The focused and lethal threat posed to U.S. national security arises not from Muslims being offended by what America is, but rather from their plausible perception that the things they value -- God, Islam, their brethren, and Muslim lands -- are being attacked by America. .... Part of bin Laden's genius is that he recognized early on the difference between issues Muslims find offensive about America and the West, and those they find intolerable and life threatening. .... And in the movement-causing category fall, almost exclusively, U.S. political, military, and economic policies toward the Islamic world." (pages 9-10; "Imperial Hubris")

Compare Scheuer's description of bin Laden to that of the Bush administration, or of Bush's friends in Saudi Arabia. Most DUers will recall Saudi ambassador Prince Bandar bin Sultan dismissing bin Laden as a dull-witted fellow in Michael Moore's F 9-11. " Bandar Bush," as our president calls him, has also told reporters that, "When I first met bin Laden in the 1980s, I thought he couldn't lead eight ducks across the street."

Scheuer notes: "The most common form of the Saudi's defamation of bin Laden is done by having his friends in the kingdom describe him as a gentle, amiable, and relatively unintelligent man.This seems to be an effort to suggest to the world that bin Laden is not capable of the 11 September attacks, while sparing the regime the anger and resentment that too harsh a critique of bin Laden would produce in the politically powerful bin Laden family -- a pillar of the Saudi establishment -- and the majority of the Saudi populace that polls show admire bin Lade." (pg 108 of "Imperial Hubris")

Even many people on the democratic left subscribe to a false legend of bin Laden. He is referred to as a "CIA asset" on several DU threads, although there is no evidence to support this claim. The fact he fought in Afghanistan at the same time the CIA bankrolled some of the mujahideen is apparently the only "proof" needed. Yet bin Laden did not fight the Soviet Union because they were a godless, communist country; he fought because they were invading an Islamic country. While it is true that this episode represents perhaps the CIA's most successful effort in battling the Soviet Union, it is an error to assume the agency bought the control of the Islamic fghters.

Scheuer has served as the CIA's leading expert on bin Laden. His books present a very different view of bin Laden, in an entirely Islamic context, as a highly intelligent, very capable military leader. Scheuer shows how bin Laden has used the Bush administration's Imperial Hubris to his best advantage. He lists about 30 successful actions by the US and its allies against al Qaeda since 9-11, and about 75 successful al Qaeda strikes against American and allied interests in the same period.(pages 87-100)

Scheuer notes that the United States is "fighting a worldwide Islamic insurgency -- not criminality or terrorism." He traces this struggle to the US policy in the Middle East, especially in regard to oil. One cannot read this without being reminded of the work done by presidents from Carter to Clinton, that had made significant progress towards creating friendships between our country and moderate Muslim nations. This administration has destroyed every single friendship except that of the Bush family and the Saudi "royal" family.

The tape of bin Laden that the American public saw on 10-29 seemed to be an effort to help President Bush win the 11-2 election. Yet when we ignore the false images of bin Laden that our media has presented, and view him from the context Scheuer presents, one realizes that bin Laden recognizes that President Bush's Imperial Hubris generates an ever increasing support for the growing hatred of America that al Qaeda capitalizes on.


(7) "We thank God for appeasing us with the dilemma in Iraq after Afghanistan. The Americans are facing a delicate situation in both countries. If they withdraw, they will lose everything; and if they stay, they will continue to bleed to death." - Ayman al -Zawahiri; pg xxi of "Imperial Hubris"

Scheuer describes the goals of the anti-American forces in Afghanistan and Iraq as classic guerrilla warfare: "The first job of an insurgent organization .... is neither to stand and fight nor to be able to hit its foe with a single, fatal blow. Its first responsibility always is to be positioned to prevent its annihilation by a single, comprehensive military strike or campaign by its always more powerful enemy." (page 60)

Their goal is to avoid major defeats and to protect senior leaders. Their fighting is limited to using "whatever weapons come to hand to wear down the enemy in military, economic, political and morale terms." (page 61) I believe that Scheuer accurately predicted the US action in Fallujah. He has a clear grasp at what is going on. Compare this to President Bush's insisting that the increase in violence represents our coming closer to the "victory" that he already announced in May of 2003. Like LBJ in Vietnam, President Bush does not recognize that an escalation in death and destruction does not translate into peace and democracy.

And again like LBJ, when patriotic and highly intelligent citizens such as Michael Scheuer attempt to inform this administration of their tragic errors, Bush turns a deaf ear. He lacks the capacity to recognize that he is capable of being wrong. Instead, Scheuer and many other highly qualified CI employees are labeled as "enemies" and forced out of their jobs. Because these individuals put more value on the truth and are willing to act on their dedication to this great country, the administration becomes more entrenched in their Imperial Hubris, and thousands more people suffer and die for no reason.


(8) "Somehow this madness must cease. We must stop now. I speak as a child of God and brother to the suffering poor of Vietnam. I speak for those whose land is being laid waste, whose homes are being destroyed, whose culture is being subverted. I speak for the poorof America who are paying the double price of smashed hopes at home and death and corruption in Vietnam. I speak as a citizen of the world, for the world stands aghast at the path we have taken. I speak as an American to the leaderso my own nation. The great initiation in this war is ours. The initiative to stop it must be ours." - Rev. King; 4-4-67; "A Time to Break Silence"

I read on a DU forum about a sit-in planned in Ohio. Apparently, the FBI spoke to the lady planning this event, and she canceled it. I understand fear and anxiety. I can appreciate that it can cause some of our brothers and sisters to back down from taking the steps they know they should to protest this administration's war in Iraq.

I often read a story that Martin told about a time he struggled with these emotions. A late-night caller informed him that "nigger, we've taken all we want from you," and let him know that he would soon die because of his stance against hatred. We should never forget that King was a human being, his parents' son, a husband and a father. Like us, Martin felt the fear and anxiety that comes at that midnight hour, when the danger of the darkness looms the most threatening. He was exhausted, and this call brought him to his knees. He prayed: "I am here to take a stand for what I believe is right. But now I'm afraid .... I have nothing left. I've come to the point where I can't face it ..."

"At that moment I experienced the presence of the Divine as I had never before experienced him. It seemed as though I could hear the quiet assurance of an inner voice, saying, 'Stand up for righteousness, stand up for truth! God will be at your side forever!' Almost at once my fears began to pass from me. My uncertainty disappeared. I was ready to face anything. The outer situation remained the same, but God had given me inner calm." (King; The Strength to Love)

President Bush has used the imagery that Rev. King used when he spoke to us on that last night of his life, about having gone to the mountaintop. Only one of these two men could possibly be telling the truth. The other is a liar. One is a man of God; the other an evil-doer.

As a people, we must decide. As Martin said at that Riverside Church : "Now let us begin. Now let us rededicate ourselves to the long and bitter -- but beautiful -- struggle for a new world. This is the calling of the sons (and daughters) of God, and our brothers (and sisters) wait eagerly for our response. Shall we say the odds are too great? Shall we tell them the struggle is too hard? Will our message be that the forces of American life militate against their arrival as full men (and women), and we send our deepest regrets? Or will there be another message, of longing, of hope...? The choice is ours, and though we might prefer it otherwise we must choose in this crucial moment of Human history." (King; "A Time to Break Silence")
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dmac Donating Member (414 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
1. Whew,
I had to print this but I am most anxious to read it and comment back. Clearly this took considerable time and thought to write so my comment for now is thanks for taking the time . . . .
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
2. WELL DONE
and by the way, it is darkest before the sun comes out... for those of us who have been awake at that hour know so well, that hour is ours... and this is our strugle
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:48 PM
Response to Original message
3. Magnificent!
Your best yet. And it makes me wonder, do we truly know what *ush's center of gravity is? Iraq, the scandals, himself? All of them? Saw Scheuer on 60 Min., perhaps people will listen, his warnings about a nuke heading our way should certainly get their attention.

I'm truly sorry we lost MLKjr., we could use him now.
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indigobusiness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:28 PM
Response to Original message
4. Halfway through I'm compelled to comment.
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 09:35 PM by indigobusiness
Inspired effort. You just tossed this off? Or has your staff been putting this together over the past week? Nicely done. Kudos.

----

The picture you paint of a President possessed of the flaws of LBJ and none of the skills is tragicly chilling to behold. Coupled with the sickening schmooze factor that successfully sucker-punched America to catapult this lame-duckery of looming cataclysm and apocalyptic promise...this is a monster of Nietzschean proportion.

"I speak as a citizen of the world, for the world stands aghast at the path we have taken. I speak as an American to the leaders of my own nation. The great initiation in this war is ours. The initiative to stop it must be ours." - Rev. King

Could Reverend King's words be more resonant in our collapsing world? Little else need saying.

"Imperial Hubris" is a lofty title for the glorified schoolyard bullying taking place. Perhaps the torrential bloodletting demands a regal title. Isn't it time to see things as they are, and deal with it? If not now, when?

Demand peace.

---

SludgeReport2





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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. I believe that those of us
who were alive in 1968 see today's situation with a horror that demands we act, even if that means we must accept some "legal" consequence. No one wants to be arrested for attending a sit-in where people read from the United States Constitution. But if it is necessary, then perhaps we must begin.
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kohodog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
6. Bin Ladin was instrumental in the demise of the Soviet Union
We bankrolled the Afghan resistance in money, training and weapons. We supported Bin Ladin in that effort, and ultimately the money the Soviets spent in that war bankrupted their economy.

Is there any doubt that bin Ladin learned the lesson well? If we keep on our present course he will have no need to attack us with a dirty bomb. The cost to our economic health will do a much more complete and far reaching job.
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dmac Donating Member (414 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 12:05 AM
Response to Original message
7. This is an incredible piece of work . . . . .
I bought "Imperial Hubris" right before the election - and honestly have been in such a funk since the election that I forgot I even have it. Perhaps reading this will give me the courage, or if not the courage, the understanding to face whatever comes next.

I have often wondered at how differently I feel when I read (or hear) King's words and references to the Lord, versus Bush's references. I try never to judge another man's faith, but when I read King, I see light and hope, but Bush rings empty and hollow.

I believe King's purity of spirit and motive allowed him to interpret the right direction and message from God's word - and it does indeed feel "Godly". Unfortunately, I feel the latter lacks that purity and therefore it feels false. The mystery for me is why it does not feel that way to others.

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 06:51 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. When people are thirsty ......
they will drink what is available. But if you put a glass of clean water and a glass of dirty water in front of a thirsty person, they almost always choose the clean water. The American public is thirsty: we need to put King's clean water next to the filth that Bush offers up. I have faith that the public will make the correct choice.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #8
24. I really love how your mind works . . .
and I truly enjoy your writings (despite rumors to the contrary)!
;-) Thank you sir for sharing this with us!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. My friend merh:
I am retired now-a-days, and so my mind doesn't work much at all! (grin) Thank you for your kindness, and even more for your contribution to the progressive thinking on DU!
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. LOL - from my encounters earlier today on other threads, it would
appear that there are some on DU that do not share your views relative to my thinking being progressive. :crazy:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. I occassionally have the same
experience. I have no problem with some good "give and take," and have even had a few unpleasant exchanges on here -- I know, I know, you can't believe that, but it is true -- but there has been an unfortunate tone on a number of threads in the past week. Perhaps it's just a silly phase we're going through. But I think the new forums may help us channel some energy in the correct directions.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Let me know which forums you frequent, I will be glad to visit
those. The negative and hate filled ones are just so tiresome.
If we won the election as I believe we did, the changes to the party are not as important as the changes to the voting process.

I will never be able to forget the face of the weed as he addressed the press with pickles after they voted. He looked so dejected and the twins were not able to face the cameras. The only ones that knew they had bought the election were poppy & rove. :mad:

Instead of dealing with what really matters, folks go off on crazy tangents, blaming the red states or misconstruing phrases. :shrug: I just don't get it.

(I remembered to use spell check - heehee :silly:)
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. Yes, Kerry won
I'm not one to believe in "conspiracies," but the truth is that the powersthat control this country .... and they are actually larger than those counting votes .... were simply not going to allow Kerry to take office. For people on the democratic left --including DU-- to implode and tear at each other's throats because of this, is simply foolish. We must become stronger, and better organized .... not wounded with self-inflicted injuries.

I always have enjoyed GD, and look forward to the up-coming CIA/Plame/etc forum that will start very soon.

I also enjoy the religion/spirituality forum .... because I think that the religious left may play a vital part in contesting the policies of this administration.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. What do you make of his interview?
http://www.boston.com/news/necn /

What many have missed relative to the religious, whether they be the left or the right, is that the Bible is a tremendous tool to use.
A very good site to visit is http://www.religioustolerance.org / and a very good resource is http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible,

For every talking point used by the fundies that support their "restrictive" views of society, there can be at least twice as many references in the Bible that support the liberal view.

My favorite is to quote Matthew 6 when they demand that prayer be put back into public schools.

I will be visiting the forums you suggest. Thank you again my friend. :hi:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Yes, indeed.....
When people on the left want to remove "religion" from politics, they remove King and others.

When they preach science, they simply forget: the politics of the nazis was not so terribly wrong because of its religion; rather, it was the science of the nazi leaders that created its horrors. Yet we would be fools to say, "Let's keep science out, or we run the risk of being nazis!"

Science and religion do not need to be seen as conflicting; both are at their best when they over-lap.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 07:37 AM
Response to Original message
9. AWESOME post!
:thumbsup:
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anarchy1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 07:38 AM
Response to Original message
10. Damn, what a beautiful post. I really can't even begin to describe
what a treasure DU is and to all that are here. Thank you all. We have much to be proud of.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Thank you.
I had felt pretty strongly about this issue .... and had been thinking about what I wanted to say for a couple of days. I even wrote an outline the night before I wrote this up, and had discussed a couple of the thoughts with "Me" on e-mail.

A few days back, a friend was over to watch a boxing match. He grew up in Afghanistan and Pakistan, where his father worked for the US government for decades. He is an extremely intelligent man, who served this country in the military in an honorable manner. And he confirmed my thoughts that Bush is making the United States and its citizens more hated than any people have ever been in the world's history. My friend believes that Scheuer is the most insightful and honest source of information that the American public has available at this time.

I will say that it makes me wonder if my essay makes any sense at all when it gets scant reaction on DU. I appreciate you taking the time to read it, and to respond.
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anarchy1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Dear H2O,
I will say thank you once again. You are much appreciated around here. I just came off of a week long vacation, removed from all sources of information. No cable, no internet, just my cell phone. It turned into the week from hell and I am still trying to sort it all out. The people that need help the most are the most ignorant. They want help from the state, from the government, from their moms and dads, they have no jobs, no health care, no care for their kids (and they are having more) and yet none of them took the time to register to vote or to bother to vote. I'm at a complete and total loss. My vacation to get sane made me more insane and I'm just so happy to be home and to have a refuge like DU. I fear for my country. I'd like to stay and fight the good fight, but I'm not sure it's the right thing to do at this point in time. It looks way too much like Germany to me. Gonzales for AG, you've got to be kidding me. Just when I think everytime I can't be surprised anymore I get leveled again. Porter Goss for the CIA..?

What the hell is going on? Once again, thank you. I'm still trying to pull all my thoughts together and I'll post more later, but thank you.
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Peacelady Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. It Makes Sense
Your article is great and it is appreciated. Too long for the "Survivor Watchers" I'm afraid but a well thought out piece.I have just started reading "Imperial Hubris" and watched the author on
"60 Minutes" last night. NOTHING that this pack of jackels in Washington does surprises me. I weep for our country, I hate what they have done to it, and to a point, what we as Democrats have let them get away with. We need to forget petty differences and work toward a stronger party. We had our "Bush Must Go" sign cut out of the frame, but before it happened, we were approached by many people, mostly neighbors and persons who frequently drive on our road who congratulated us for being "brave" and admiring the sign. No one else except for 1 neighbor dared to display a Kerry sign though.A man or a woman must have the courage of their convictions or in my book they really don't count for much. Your "convictions" are showing H2O man, THANK YOU!
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. Hi Peacelady!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #18
33. Yes, hello!
Welcome to DU ! I see that you are from NY .... it sounds like "upstate," because around these parts, it was rare on some roads to see a Kerry sign.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
13. Kick
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. I agree
in theory and in practice.
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 07:36 AM
Response to Original message
16. Thanks for sharing this
Edited on Tue Nov-16-04 07:36 AM by buddyhollysghost
I will print it out to pass around. :)

:kick:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Thank you for that
I would be most curious what you and other folks think.
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. The human face of what we do
You and I do not stand for this bloodshed. We would loudly protest another nation invading our own.

The double-speak of "we are helping the Iraqis" plus "we are destroying their cities, failing to ptotect them, and allowing angry Muslims from all over to pour into Iraq" is simply swallowed by the vast majority of people.

I protest with photos of wounded Iraqis and soldiers on my car. So far, no one has bothered me. I can't sit back and watch the carnage in the name of Jesus. And I do feel peace about boldly announcing where I stand.

If I remained silent, my grief would be immeasurable.

A nice Call to Arms, H20 man.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. "photos of wounded ..."
Wow. That's good. People have to think different, before they can possibly act different. You are making people think. I like that.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. in fact ....
it was in large part the television "bringing the war home" that turned Americans off from supporting the war effort in Vietnam. The power of visuals can not be underestimated. A story about prison abuse is not that effective without the young female soldiet with the dog lease ..... or the newest image of a young soldier, clearly in a state of out-of-control violence, shooting a still-breathing "enemy combatant" in a house or worship ..... "somehow this madness must stop ..."
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RedTail Wolf Donating Member (372 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
19. Join me in helping to find an organization
that can put together a march on Washington! These impassioned words call for such a march. Do you think Martin Luther King Jr. would have stood by as the rights he fought so hard for and gave his life for were taken away. Would John or Robert Kennedy stand idly by and watch our great nation be dragged in a direction contrary to it's Constitution? I don't think so.
We need organization and money. I beg you all please write to organizations that you think could and would help us pull off a massive march of protest on Washington.
Our country never needed patriots to stand up for her more than she yearns for us to stand up now. I will continue to make this plea. Help me and others who have voiced similar opinions find the funding and organizational skills to put this together. I there ever was a time to break the silence this is that time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

RedTail Wolf
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hippiechick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
23. Amazing !!
:toast: That was an AWESOME essay. Thank you !!


:hippie:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Thank you!
I certainly appreciate that! I think that anybody who keeps the word "hippie" in the lexicon is likely to understand exactly what I am trying to say ..... and that mean a lot to me!
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
28. Just a TERRIFIC think piece, H2O Man!
Didn't matter what length it was. And you always come up with such wonderful quotes. I've copied a number of them from your various posts and I keep 'em in my "good quotes" file.

I'm still feeling so desolate from the election, and now, seeing all the Bad Guys getting rewarded with bigger jobs and more power, when what they really deserve is a whole wardrobe of orange jumpsuits.

You often refer to Dr. King. I wonder how madly he'd be spinning in his grave over these dreadful times. At least he didn't have to see this or confront this, himself. Even bush and rove and the rest of those awful people can't hurt him anymore. I have a friend who died a few months ago (cancer), regretting among other things that she wouldn't be able to cast her vote against bush. Now, I'm actually glad she's dead, and was thus spared this. It would have crushed her to see what's happened. And if she'd survived til now, these last two weeks or so probably would have put her under.

Thank you for your noble thoughts. So eloquent.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. Well, well!
I had not seen you on DU in a little while .... and I knew you had put a lot of effort in on the effort to change this country .... I recall that I posted a number of compliments on your posts in October.
So I am glad to see you tonight!

This I can say: and while I am claiming no special insight or connection, I know -- as well as I know my hand -- that the spirit of Martin Luther King, Jr is not spinning in his grave .... and I know that you are using an expression, but because you are upset by the election .... I assure you that the spirit of Rev. King is alive and well in America tonight. Yes, he is. When that teen-aged girl in Los Angeles decided today not to accept the Bush administration's placing a limit on her future, expecting her to be satisfied with mediocrity rather than aspiring to excellence .... that was Rev. King. And when some college students in Florida decided today that too many people had fought too hard in the uncivil wars of the 1860s and 1960s for them to not fight for their right to vote, that is Dr. King, too.

"Down at the cross where my Savior died
Down where for cleansing from sin I cried
There to my heart was blood applied
Singing glory tio His name!"
- Hymn quoted by James Baldwin in "The Fire Next Time"
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Muddy Waters Guitar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 09:49 PM
Response to Original message
35. Wonderful
Excellent post, esp. the part about Michael Scheuer. This guy is the heir to Richard Clarke, a career professional who doesn't give an ounce of warm spit about either party, but wants to do the job right (like any true professional), and is dismayed by everything he sees. Among Republican "defectors" I've known (who pulled the lever for Kerry, or stayed home), the testimony by Clarke did more than 1,000 Michael Moore films could've ever done. Scheuer seems to be a similar figure.
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unionjack Donating Member (33 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Great post...
....and high time people talked about what BinLaden is really about instead of the "they hate us for our freedom" garbage.

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. I think that both
Scheuer and Clarke are true patriots. It is important for people on the democratic left to recognize that not all republicans are "the enemy." Many are our relatives, neighbors, co-workers, and even friends. (Maybe not our close friends. But maybe people you went to college with who became confused by the material world.)

Also, it is an error to see the military and intelligence agencies in a one-dimensional mode. There are many patriotic men and women who love this country, respect the Constitution, and want the best for the families and communities in this country. And they know that this administration poses dangers.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
39. Excellent. Most excellent.

I'm so glad you're bringing attention to "Imperial Hubris" and especially to this paragraph:

"We thank God for appeasing us with the dilemma in Iraq after Afghanistan. The Americans are facing a delicate situation in both countries. If they withdraw, they will lose everything; and if they stay, they will continue to bleed to death." - Ayman al -Zawahiri; pg xxi of "Imperial Hubris"


As the author, Michael Scheuer, points out, this is all unclassified information, but much of it has not been reported, probably due to the greater priority given to the murder of a pregnant woman in suburban California. Until reading this book, I had no idea how often Bin Laden had been addressing comments to us (the American people) over the years. OBL believes, or purports to believe, that we can control the actions of our government because this is a democracy. This is one case in which I wish the RWers could convince someone that we are not a democracy but a republic, and thus get us off the hook.

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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
40. Excellent. Most excellent.

I'm so glad you're bringing attention to "Imperial Hubris" and especially to this paragraph:

"We thank God for appeasing us with the dilemma in Iraq after Afghanistan. The Americans are facing a delicate situation in both countries. If they withdraw, they will lose everything; and if they stay, they will continue to bleed to death." - Ayman al -Zawahiri; pg xxi of "Imperial Hubris"


As the author, Michael Scheuer, points out, this is all unclassified information, but much of it has not been reported, probably due to the greater priority given to the murder of a pregnant woman in suburban California. Until reading this book, I had no idea how often Bin Laden had been addressing comments to us (the American people) over the years. OBL believes, or purports to believe, that we can control the actions of our government because this is a democracy. This is one case in which I wish the RWers could convince someone that we are not a democracy but a republic, and thus get us off the hook.

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Proud liberal Kat Donating Member (217 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
41. Wow
Wonderful summation, I wish I had your clarity and organization of thoughts! Thanks for sharing, do you mind if this is passed on?
Kathy
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 06:41 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. oh please do .....
that would be fine; I'd be curious if you had any reaction to it. Thank you.
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