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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:52 AM
Original message
updated progressive priorities-4 things
1. return to paper ballots
2. replace the Dem party leadership
3. adopt a sweeping progressive populist philosophy and message
4. reform the war powers process in Murka. We should institutionalize a military isolationist policy, requiring a supermajority vote of Congress in order to allow all but very limited humanitarian or rescue military operations.
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JudyM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
1. Re: #1, expand to full transparency of the voting process and
prevent conflicts of interests of those in power, e.g., Blackwell as Sec of State in OH as well as being *'s OH campaign lead.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
14. that's the point
thanks.
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tk2kewl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
2. return to paper ballots is dumb
we need "election technology rules" but we dont need to be regressive in our thinking

all e-voting source code must be open source

no e-voting company or principal/executive of an e-voting may make political donations to a candidate, party, or 527.

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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Canada manages just fine with paper ballots.
Can you give us some compelling reasons why paper ballots are BAD?

sw
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tk2kewl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. I didnt say paper ballots are bad
i said it is regressive thinking to say we should throw away technology and have only paper ballots

i vote on a mechanical voting machine that has been used for at least 40 yrs in my area. should we throw those away too.

we can allow for innovation as long as we ensure the integrity of the system
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Okay, you said returning to paper ballots would be "dumb".
What I want to know is, why is "technology" so preferable? What can technology do that paper ballots can't do just as well when it comes to accurately tabulating our votes?

sw
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tk2kewl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #10
19. whether it's preferrable or not
its dumb to say just get rid of it. in the real world you can't simply dismiss technological advancement because you are afraid of it. you need to understand it and put safegaurds in place.
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. regression is what is going on right now, thanks to e-voting
mechanical and electronic are not the same thing.

e-voting is only about 20 years old.

But only in the last 4 years has it been used for major fraud.

NO ONE will have to wait in line to fill out a piece of paper.

And in my state, NC admin Code section 08.0109 (c), you cannot do a manual recount with a DRE. That is freaking crazy.

I'm over op. scans, as well. To much of the fraud this year took place on them, and therefore I am with the OP on this one, ban all forms of evoting, go back to paper and pen.

the major tragic mistake of the dem party is fear of "whathey'regonna say". WTGS disease keeps us looking like wet noodles and waffles to the whole nation, it's bullshit, and not surprisinly the impetus on dems to behave this way comes from the right wing, because they know it will backfire on us. The right is our enemny, if they want to call names, then let them call names. Big Deal.

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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. the current system is profoundly illegitimate
1. Not one person who votes without a paper ballot has the slightest assurance their vote is counted or that it is counted accurately.

2. In nearly every jurisdiction in Murka, the system relies for its execution on political appointees or other political partisans.

3. Methods, processes and execution vary so widely throughout Murka, that (hate to echo the Supremos in their treasonous statements of 12-12-00) the principle of equal protection under the Constitution.

4. The representative scheme that worked in a rural frontier nation, with low population density, few real cities, and primitive communications no longer works. Districting, the Electoral College and the entire concept of a Senate where each state, regardless of population is equally represented, are so open to blatant political tampering that they need to be rethought. They virtually guarantee that not all votes are equal.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #2
15. paper ballots aren't regressive
they work

The repukes will scream "free speech rights" all the way to the bank where the repukes launder their money over any restrictions on an executive's right to bribe officials.
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tk2kewl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
3. return to paper ballots is dumb
we need "election technology rules" but we dont need to be regressive in our thinking

all e-voting source code must be open source

no e-voting company or principal/executive of an e-voting may make political donations to a candidate, party, or 527.

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tk2kewl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
4. retun to paper ballots is silly
we need "election technology rules" but we dont need to be regressive in our thinking

all e-voting source code must be open source

no e-voting company or principal/executive of an e-voting may make political donations to a candidate, party, or 527.

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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. We need a paper ballot in addition to the electronic systems.
It's a basic accounting principle. To not have a source document to verify an entry invites fraud. Every textbook in accounting says that. Counting votes is no different than counting money. Can you imagine if Walmart just counted the money collected at the end of the day, with no tapes or receipts to balance and verify against? You can be sure that a lot of the money collected would not go into the register and there would be no way to prove theft.
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. yes, but if fraud produces a result outside the margin to trigger
a recount,then a paper ballot doesn't mean ca-ca.

Kill a tree, save America! Bring Back all Paper Voting!
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #7
17. with a paper ballot, the e-voting is irrelevant and unnecessary
just cast a paper ballot, put it in the box and wait however it longs to count the votes.

this won't end fraud; nothing will, although we need major election and campaign reform if democracy is to survive.

But without a paper ballot for every vote cast, there never will be another legitimate election in Murka.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
5. Gee we once had all those things.
:-(
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tk2kewl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
6. shit sorry
getting weird errors when i try to post

didn't realize the post actually went through

:argh:
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Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
13. You must want to make the Democratic Party irrelevant
or transform it into some kind of minor player. That's a good plan to do that with the obvious exception of #1.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. No. I want to save the Democratic Party from its self-imposed irrelevancy
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 01:21 PM by leftofthedial
Without #1, it doesn't matter what else we do.

the rreason for #4 is to attack the repuke's desire for an Imperial Presidency at its core.
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