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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:57 AM
Original message
Let Me Express My Disgust With Those Here
who can't bring themselves to feel any empathy for Margaret Hassan because of the deaths of Iraqi civilians. Your logic is flawed beyond repair.

On a recent thread, I read several posts condemning Margaret Hassan for being in Iraq, thus deserving of the suffering she has experienced.

I find I almost don't know how to respond to this kind of thinking.
One can feel empathy for both Margaret Hassan, who by all accounts was an exemplary human being, and the suffering and death of Iraqi civilians. The tragedy of one doesn't negate or diminish the tragedy of the other.

I certainly agree that the media has been grotesquely negligent about putting a face on the suffering of the Iraqi people. Alas, it is human nature to identify with an individual rather than a large number of faceless people. We should put pressure on the media to correct this shameful omission.

None of that makes Margaret Hassan less deserving of empathy. For thirty years she fought for the Iraqi people, in the most concrete of ways, under the most difficult of circumstances.
I have little but contempt for those who express indifference to her fate.
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indigobusiness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
1. Lots of people need to do less expression of opinion
and more searching of soul.
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #1
15. Hi indigobusiness,
Opinions are easy, cost one little and amount to little in the end. What really matters is the stuff one is made of from the inside out. For that, though, one must face the truth of one's self without falling into either aggrandizement or despair. Not so easy, this 'soul searching' business.
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indigobusiness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #15
25. Having no attachment to outcomes
helps.
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
2. Let me echo your excellent words.
I haven't come across any of the sort of posts you are referring to, but I am appalled and disgusted that anyone would express such vile sentiments.

Some people apparently have no class, no heart, and exceedingly small minds.

sw
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Here's one of the posts that turned my stomach
What are they doing there anyway?
They run the risk. I'm not sorry for them.
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. The poster betrays his/her ignorance in the 1st sentence.
Ignorance AND stupidity. If you don't KNOW what "they're doing there anyway", then you are in absolutely NO postition to judge whether or not they "deserve" their fate.

Some people are more in love with their own self-righteousness than they are interested in finding out the facts. Shame on them.

sw
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notadmblnd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #5
12. Do you have a link to that thread?
nt
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kittycat1164 Donating Member (616 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Link I think
I've never linked a thread, we'll c how I do...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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itzamirakul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #5
17. I am one of those who posted...
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 11:43 AM by itzamirakul
under your previous topic and I am one of those who said that Ms. Hassan should have gotten out when she had the chance.

We are not all going to agree with each other all the time. Sometimes we have to have an open mind even when another person's response is in direct opposite to our own opinion.

In the previous topic you jumped all over me, attacking and accusing me of thinking that all Muslims should get out of the US, when I wrote nothing of the kind. I think you are reading more into some of these posts than is actually meant. At least, I know that you did in my case. And I really feel bad about that, because I am quite sympathetic to Ms. Hassan's plight, just as you are.

I felt that with fighting going on so desperately and with so many strangers coming into the area who did not know Ms. Hassan and her wonderful, valuable work, she was knowingly putting herself in harm's way. If that was ok with her then we should honor her for it and understand that she probably understood the possibility of becoming a victim.

To my way of thinking, it would have been wiser to leave and live to return and perform her humanitarian services some other day. War is no longer like it was when Florence Nightengale and her nurses were able to serve so valiantly on the battlefields. Even the UN has had to pull out of the worst areas. Does this bid ill for the poor injured and maimed Iraqis left behind? Yes, it certainly does, but now Ms. Hassan is unable to help them at all.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Here's my response from the other thread to your
original post there. I do disagree with you, and I said so. Having said that, I appreciate that you sympathize with Ms. Hassan's plight, and recognize that sympathy for her does not negate sympathy for Iraqi civilians. I apologize if you felt I jumped all over you.

When War broke out?
This woman was an Iraqi citizen. She lived through the war with Iran, the first U.S. led war, the sanctions and Saddam. Why the hell should she have left her country at a time when she was needed more than ever? By your logic, No humantarian aid agencies, either NGOs or government sponsored should be in dangerous places. Which, of course, is where they are most needed. Great suggestion! Let those suffering most do without any help whatsoever. Also by your logic, naturalized citizens who are, say, muslims, should leave the U.S.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #19
27. I think the poster meant that muslims in the US are like the Jews in
Germany of the 1930's.

Same can be said of liberals and gays, etc.

We are ALL citizens, and the vast majority of us are 2nd and 3rd and 4th generation Americans or more.

The analogy is at what point is it better to leave and survive to fight another day instead of waiting for them to cart you off to the gas chambers.

That is how I read it.

And believe me, I and a LOT of my friends are haveing these discussions. And a lot of it is comming from survivors of the last concentration camps and thier children and grandchildren.

That itself should be alarming to everyone, but it isn't.

Think about it.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
3. People are actually condemning her for her
humanitarian work? She's the head of an aid group; Iraqis needed aid-that makes her a hero in my book!

It's sad how some on the left have joined the cult of the compassionless in recent years. :-(
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
4. I agree with your empathy for Ms. Hassan, but...
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 11:17 AM by mike_c
...I think you're over reacting and misjudging the intent of most responses in that thread (body of western woman found on the street in Fallujah). One response did suggest that she should have gotten out of Iraq, but it was clear that the poster did not know Ms. Hassan's circumstances. Ignorance is not necessarily deliberate callousness, although I do agree that there was no compassion expressed in that post.

The rest of the responses that I've seen focus on disparities in reporting the deaths of tens of thousands of Iraqi women killed during the invasion and occupation, and during the Iraqi struggle against the occupation. I think those are legitimate concerns, and do not in any way detract from grief over Ms. Hassan's death, if she is indeed dead.

on edit: you've posted the reply that I referred to above.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #4
11. I disagree with you
There was more than one post. What's more, there's been more than one thread in which such sentiments have been expressed. I've posted on too many of them to believe, any longer, that it's only one or two people. Sadly, the anger over the misdeeds of the U.S. is blinding people to the misdeeds of others. I have read, more than once on DU, that it's the U.S. or its surrogates who are responsible for the beheadings and murders of Iraqis and foreigners. This refusal to believe that any entity other than the U.S., committs atrocities is shocking to me. Do people know so little about human nature?
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Ardee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
6. Here here
One must stand with you in this matter, if one has a brain and a conscience.
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hollywood926 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
7.  I agree...but haven't read any such posts, Well said, though. n/t
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independentpiney Donating Member (966 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
8. sometimes fingers on the keyboard engage before the brain n/t
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CBHagman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
10. I so agree with you, Cali.
Back at the end of March, when four contractors were killed in Fallujah and their bodies burned, mutilated and displayed, I was upset that some DUers and at least one of my co-workers were in a haste to speak disparagingly of the men as "mercenaries." NO ONE deserves to die the way they did, and I wanted to know what drove the crowd in Fallujah (which appeared to include a lot of young men and at least some young boys) to respond that way to people who were there in a civilian endeavor.

That's not to say that I regard the Iraq war as moral; far from it. But I want answers, I want hope, I want empathy, not a cool dismissal of suffering and death.

Thanks for what you wrote.
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Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
13. I think people who just post knee jerk responses may have thought
her a missionary--a fundie--the most reviled of all Christians.

There were some, four I think, in Afganistan, if I remember correctly who were held and then released and received a medal or some tribute from Bush at the time.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
16. I thought she was there for humanitarian reasons so I'd never say that.
Nor would I say it about the troops who are there under orders. I don't wish any harm to good people anywhere.
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libbygurl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
18. Wholly agree with you. Feeling empathy for Hassan and the same for
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 11:43 AM by libbygurl
Iraqi civilians are not mutually exclusive!

So, do you have anything new about the fate of Ms. Hassan?
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Cuban_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
20. Bravo!
*applause*

:hi:
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RyomaSakamoto Donating Member (393 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
21. gotta link
i can't imagine du'ers not empathizing with her... unless it's the freeper trolls :shrug:
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
22. I strongly agree.
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otohara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
23. Could You Post Some of These Threads/Posts?
I think it should be a rule at DU...

If you're going to post one of I'm disgusted, outraged, etc w/ "you people" - they should be backed up with some evidence of said posts. Otherwise it's just hearsay.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. I have mixed feelings about that request
but there is a link here to the thread that set me off, and had I the ability to use the search function, I'd post more links.
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Gyre Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
24. All civilian lives lost in this criminal enterprise
are a terrible waste. I feel somewhat less sorry for occupation-soldier deaths, same as I would not mourn much for an armed robber who is gunned down mid-crime.

Gyre
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