Any Lutherans in the house???

[OctOct1]

Are there any Lutherans in the house??
Did anyone go to church this morning??
Was your reading Luke 19: 11-27?
Were you angry and insulted???
I was.

[Dem Agog]

1. ?

I mean this with all due respect, because I truly cannot understand organized religion. Why do you go to a church that insults you and makes you angry? Is this the first time? And, will you go back if it is?

Just wondering.

[seabeyond]

4. my kids go to fundie school, contract says weekly church

as a family. whne i applied 6 years ago, i told top dude, owuldnt be doing that. you are exactly right, no way i am going to a church to embrace jesus and his teaching only to become angry. and now, the shift in religion to outright hate, couldnt pay me to corrupt my journey with jesus, thru the misguided interpretation and cult like fashion churches are employing

[OctOct1]

5. I never found it insulting before

I am having a difficult time with my faith these days

[Dem Agog]

7. I understand.

I went through that myself. Was raised in a church - for school and also on Sundays. Took a lot of time and therapy, the end result is that I have totally changed my spiritual beliefs and I think the last time I stepped into a church was about ten years ago.

Good luck with your faith.

[seabeyond]

2. dont make me pull out my bible

and why would you think all lutherans would be reading the same quote

[OctOct1]

3. Here is is

A Story about Ten Servants
11 The crowd was still listening to Jesus as he was getting close to Jerusalem. Many of them thought that God’s kingdom would soon appear, 12 and Jesus told them this story: A prince once went to a foreign country to be crowned king and then to return. 13 But before leaving, he called in ten servants and gave each of them some money. He told them, "Use this to earn more money until I get back."

14 But the people of his country hated him, and they sent messengers to the foreign country to say, "We don’t want this man to be our king." 15 After the prince had been made king, he returned and called in his servants. He asked them how much they had earned with the money they had been given. 16 The first servant came and said, "Sir, with the money you gave me I have earned ten times as much."

17 "That’s fine, my good servant!" the king said. "Since you have shown that you can be trusted with a small amount, you will be given ten cities to rule." 18 The second one came and said, "Sir, with the money you gave me, I have earned five times as much." 19 The king said, "You will be given five cities." 20 Another servant came and said, "Sir, here is your money. I kept it safe in a handkerchief. 21 You are a hard man, and I was afraid of you. You take what isn’t yours, and you harvest crops you didn’t plant." 22 "You worthless servant!" the king told him. "You have condemned yourself by what you have just said. You knew that I am a hard man, taking what isn’t mine and harvesting what I’ve not planted. 23 Why didn’t you put my money in the bank? On my return, I could have had the money together with interest."

24 Then he said to some other servants standing there, "Take the money away from him and give it to the servant who earned ten times as much." 25 But they said, "Sir, he already has ten times as much!" 26 The king replied, "Those who have something will be given more. But everything will be taken away from those who don’t have anything. 27 Now bring me the enemies who didn’t want me to be their king. Kill them while I watch!"

[seabeyond]

8. jesus is the king,? that said this

i am confused. guess i am not meant to understand. good reason staying out of the bible.

[classof56]

15. I grabbed my Bible (I keep it handy these days) and read this passage

before you posted the text. I confess, I never interpreted it the way I just did, but not that I think about it, yeah, I'm insulted and angry, too. I'd be interested to know what the pastor's sermon was like, following this reading. Are the Lutherans advocating that those of us who didn't support Bush be taken out and shot? Probably not that extreme, but I do think they're trying to say something. And it's not Christian, in my humble opinion! I will no longer attend the local Southern Baptist Church I've been going to for awhile because of their political stance. Like I read here awhile back: You try to sanctify politics with religion, what you get is cheapened religion. And a lot of cynical Christians like me, BTW!

[OctOct1]

20. Thank You!! Thank You!! Thank You!!!

Then it is not just me falling off the rocker.
Thank you for seeing it (like I did) for the first time.

Are we in a new place now???
Can we ever read the bible again without seeing something we never saw before???

What has happen to us ---that we see things we never saw before???
I do not want to be awakened, if it means...........

What dose it mean????

[seabeyond]

37. i have always felt this is the challenge in the bible

one can interpret it in the higher or lower vibration. free will. i am saying jesus himself says take it within. listen from within, the reason you have been listening to the christ inside you in your interpretation, now you are listening to the outside world mans interpretation, not christ. this is tricky part of bible

[seabeyond]

35. if the minister knows you at the church

go talk to him. tell him you have crisis of religion. not a crisis of faith, but a crisis of religion adn tell him why. the people the people that the religion is for are the ones that have to speak out. i am pulling my kids out of their school,. and when i do decide how and when i am telling them, they walked from christianity, they werent christian enough for us. i expected more.

[RPM]

42. yow

what version is that - with the killing and all

[grannylib]

30. Most Lutheran churches are on a liturgical cycle (A,B and C years) with

rotating texts, so one could expect to find the same lessons being read from church to church on any given Sunday.

[seabeyond]

36. interesting, thanks

didnt know

[TheMightyFavog]

6. What kind of Lutheran?

Happy Lutheran (i.e. Most ELCA churches) or Dark Lutheran (i.e. the strongly fundified wing of the Missori Synod or the batshit Crazy WELS)?

[OctOct1]

12. Yes, Missouri Synod

Wow!!!!
I just realized......
My religion is run by a Red state.
Oh my!!
I have some thinking to do here in the Blue state

[seabeyond]

13. since you are in religion, it is yours equally

as you do your thinking talk to your minister, so he can see that his people are loooking beyond his words at what christianity is to them in their hearts. this is the only way ministers are going to start remembering the path of lite, is with their fellowship teaching them

[davsand]

16. Locally we have a NEW breed of Lutherans.

They are the independent ones...

The ELCA made a bunch of folks around here quite uncomfortable with the whole Gay/Lesbian clergy thing. Additionally, one of the local ELCA Pastors really pissed them all off when he talked about the idea that maybe the entire resurrection may have been not as literal as they thought. (He mentioned in a sermon that maybe it was a spiritual thing rather than an actual empty tomb.) You have NO idea what a firestorm THAT started!

As a result, we now have what used to be ELCA churches that are (or are in the process of becoming) independent of the ELCA or any other organized branch of Lutherans. It is really doing a number on our local community. The conservatives are yelling for the Missouri Synod to come in and the liberals are yelling to leave the ELCA alone. The net result is we now have Independent Lutheran Churches.

Laura

[LittleClarkie]

19. Wasn't it a couple of years that we got

the official wag of the finger from the Missouri Synod for being all ecumenical with the Episcopalians?

I met a Wisconsin Synod guy after that who railed against the ELCA without knowing that I was one. After I'd seen him several times, he finally asked and I finally told him "the one you don't like."

He said "WHY?! They believe in abortion! They believe in gay pastors!"

"Yes, we believe they exist," I answered.

But nobody is going around saying "Yay, abortions!" The difference is we gather in, we don't push away. If someone is hurting, we want to help.

I never understood why people get hung up on the details without looking at the big picture. I and other Christians have had the experience of someone trying to convert the already converted. Many have an anti-Catholic bias, calling it idolitry. I've been told I need to go to a "Bible-believing" church. What the Sam Hill is that supposed to mean?

It just bothers me that at least one friend of mine whom I would discribe as "fundamentalist" also seems to have a cold heart. She voted for Bush, even though she's underemployed.

[Left Is Write]

44. "A Bible-believing church"...

is one which believes that the Bible is the literal, inerrant, divine word of God. To suggest to them that the Bible is a flawed document, perhaps divinely inspired but written by man and translated by man, and at times contradictory and therefore not inerrant, is pretty big heresy to them. To suggest that much of the Bible is allegorical or symbolic is blasphemy.

I'm glad to have been raised in a church that takes an interpretive stance on the Bible and invites its followers to use our critical thinking skills when approaching the Bible, its authors, and the historical context of the books. You won't find me setting foot in a "Bible believing" church.

[JVS]

33. I was brought up ELCA and have been going to LCMS sevices lately.

It is not dark. In fact it is quite pleasant. Although generally it is more formal and the pastors tend to go deeper into scripture than the local ELCA pastors

[Lydia Leftcoast]

9. The readings in the Lutheran, Episcopal, and Catholic churches

are set up on a three-year cycle in which you go through the four Gospels once every three years.

You must be a recent Lutheran if you've never heard this passage before.

It's a parable. It's not meant to be taken literally. If your pastor has any sense, s/he preached a sermon to explain what was really meant.

I don't have time to explain it right now, since I have to run off to (an Episcopal) church myself. No doubt we will hear the same reading, and the priest will preach on it.

[OctOct1]

11. Then I should not take it

as an insult??
Bad timing, I guess

[OctOct1]

10. As far as I know

The readings are assigned by the head quarters.
Each pastor writes a sermon based on what they are given.
I believe all Lutherans have the same readings every week.
I was just checking to see if any other Lutheran were also feeling the same as I

[zbird]

14. I wouldn't find this insulting.

Actually, I see * in this reading. Take from the poor, give to the rich, conquer other lands, kill those who do not bend to his will.

Did the pastor expound on the reading in his sermon? If so, what did he say?

[OctOct1]

18. What the pastor said??

I was not listening to well.
The reading got my mind going in another place.
From bits and pieces I recall, He went away from the subject of money and refereed to us having Jesus in our life and multiplying our faith and love for God. We should not store it away as the one poor servant did, but multiply it.
It went something like that.
I must admit, I had a hard time paying attention.
I did not feel that the pastor took it in the wrong direction.
I felt he handled it well.
I might be reading between the lines and seeing something that is not even there.
I had this feeling, like you stated, that **** was the king who was from a noble family, took but never gave, reaped but never sowed.
The people did not want him to be King. He became one anyways and wanted those who did not favor him brought before him so he can see them killed.
The whole thing made me ill.

[LittleClarkie]

23. I think it suggested something to you that wasn't intended

That will happen to me too. I will hear something that send my mind off in a tangent.

But the parable is more about doing something with what you have and not just sitting on it, afraid to lose it. Like those of us who went GOTVing -- we tried to do something with what we'd been given in the way of time and money. Didn't end up the way we wanted, but at least we didn't just sit there.

Or letting the people around you know that you were a Kerry supporter, thereby possibly losing their esteem.

In general, we're talking stewardship. Taking care of what you have so that it will grow. If you take care of what you have, more will be given to you. If you don't take care of what you have, even what you have will go away.

The King wasn't the point. The King was only a character in the parable.

In many ways, I can see that parable applying negatively to Dubya. He is not being a good steward.

[LittleClarkie]

17. Actually, I'm being a sinner right now

as I'm supposed to be at church, but I'm playing on the evil internets instead.

Sigh, I'd better go. I have to at least be there for Sunday School.

[Left Is Write]

21. I'll be leaving for church in fifteen minutes.

I'm an ELCA Lutheran. The readings will be from Luke 21.

[OctOct1]

22. So your not reading the same

as the Missouri Synod....
Very interesting.

[Left Is Write]

27. Nope. But not all churches follow

the exact same reading plan/lesson plan necessarily anyway.

And it's all in the interpretation too - some churches/leaders will interpret Bible stories much differently than others.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

34. Okay, so the Missouri Synod is on a different schedule than

the Catholics, the ELCA Lutherans, and the Episcopalians.

That makes sense. They're allergic to being the same as the "heretics." When they were invited to join the (then) LCA and ALC in using the most recent Service Book and Hymnal back in the 1970s, they sent around a tabloid-sized, four-page position paper about what they thought was wrong with it.

We had Luke 21 as well at my Episcopal Church.

The poster above has given a good explanation of the parable. In addition, some of the parables are just puzzling. You have to remember that Jesus was talking to a specific set of people in a specific culture. The passages that make no sense today may have meant something to the people of those times, sort of the way that some lines from old comedic writing or old comic movies aren't funny today because they depend too much on being part of the milieu in which the work was produced.

[minerva50]

24. Is this the parable of the talents

that I remember from my Catholic childhood? That name for the coins that the lord handed out to his servants lent itself to non-monetary interpretations and admondishments to "not hide your light under a bushel."

[OctOct1]

38. Parable of the Pounds

Very similar, But a little different.

Here is a good explanation of the Parable of the Pounds.

http://www.jesuswalk.com/lessons/19_11-27.htm

It explains it well, but something still does not sit right with me.
Even after this explanation.

[pwestby]

25. Some background info on the readings

I happen to be a Lutheran (ELCA). I would normally be at church now, but I am home sick (nothing serious, just disgusting).

Many mainline churches base their Sunday bible readings on what's called the Revised Common Lectionary (RCL). It is a three year cycle of readings, with the years called Year A, Year B, and (you guessed it) Year C. The gospel readings for each year are primarily from one of the three synoptic gospels, with readings from the gospel of John scattered into each year to fill them out.

The interest in having common readings I believe grew out of the Second Vatican Council, but the actual readings have been revised a bit since then and the Roman Catholic Church (along with other churches), while closely following the RCL, will often vary the readings slightly. The RCL was last revised in 1992 (I'm pretty sure that's correct).

As I said, many mainline church organizations base their readings on this but on any given Sunday a pastor may choose other readings. In other words I think that following the readings for the day is encouraged, but I don't think there is any hard and fast rule.

Today, Nov. 14, 2004, is called the 24th Sunday after Pentecost in the Protestant Church calendar. The Roman Catholics call it the 33rd Sunday in Ordinary Time.

The readings for today (RCL) are as follows:
First Reading: Malachi 4:1-2a or Isaiah 65:17-25
Responsive Reading: Psalm 98 or Isaiah 12
Second Reading: 2 Thessalonians 3:6-13
Gospel Reading: Luke:21:5-19

The Roman Catholic readings for today are:
First Reading: Malachi 3:19-20a
Responsive Reading: Psalm 98:5-9
Second Reading: 2 Thessalonians 3:7-12
Gospel Reading: Luke:21:5-19

The Episcopal readings for today are:
First Reading: Malachi 3:13-4:2a, 5-6
Responsive Reading: Psalm 98 or 98:5-10
Second Reading: 2 Thessalonians 3:6-13
Gospel Reading: Luke:21:5-19

As you can see, in these three examples the gospel readings are all the same, but are not from Luke 19 (original posting).

Having said all this, throw it all out the window when it comes to the more fundamentalist churches. I think the pastors there don't have a set lectionary and so base their reading/sermon on whatever seems most appropriate to them at the time.

Hope this background helps.

[noel711]

26. No church is perfect...

That's the beauty of the USA; if your church or pastor ticks you off, you can worship down the street with another church whose theology fits you.
Lutheran theology speaks the best to me; that's why I'm a pastor here. But it isn't for everyone; the Lutheran Confessions says the Church is where the gospel is preached rightly. So you don't have to agree on everything with us to "get it."
Not every Lutheran group is fundamentalist; nor are they all pro-Bush, and conservative. The synod I belong to is quite liberal (yes, there is acceptance and welcome for gays and lesbians. Too bad some folks have problems with that!).
"Lutheran" is more of a thinking persons church. It really doesn't promote "going along with the crowd." Justice is a big deal. A very big deal.
FYI, the gospel we heard today was from LUke 21:4 to 19, a real thinking person's gospel:" ‘When you hear of wars and insurrections, do not be terrified; for these things must take place, but the end will not follow immediately. He said to them, ‘Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; there will be earthquakes, and famines and plagues; and there will be dreadful portents and great signs from heaven. Before all this occurs, they will arrest you and persecute you; they will hand you over to synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors because of my name....By your endurance you will gain your souls. " I think this speaks to many of us today, especially in light of the political situation. We may have to face persecution. But have faith..

[OctOct1]

28. Thank you for your words

of faith.
Your point is well taken.
I have no problem enduring persecution for what I believe.
In a small way, we were all just slapped in the face on Nov 2nd for holding up the truth.

I worry about my boys age 11 + 13.
How do I deliver them into these days ahead?
I grew up in such a nice period of time and I see only dark days ahead.

I am not strong enough to endure persecution delivered with their blood spilled as they are dragged into the darkness.

I am clinging to every bit of faith I have.

[MountainMamma]

43. Yes, Noel , that is the gospel read at my ELCA church

this morning. It was my first time back after being gone for six months to the mountains of NC. Actually, this scripture really spoke to me as my congregation has gone through 4 hurricanes this year and I even had one in NC that killed my friend's two grandchildren. I have been a Lutheran all of my life and my Pastor and I talk politics all the time. At the time of passing the peace, he hugged me and said "Are we going to make it through the next four years?" My answer was," I'm not sure as I am just devastated by the results of the election." I am feeling like a stranger in my own congregation as I know most of them voted the opposite way than I did. I understand there has been a media block on the stand that many of the denominations have taken regarding the war in Iraq and the actions of this administration. Shame on us for not getting the good word out and allowing all of this evilness to overtake us. Boy, we really need Christmas this year.

[grannylib]

29. Yes, PK here. No, I didn't. Not sure what today's text was.

[JVS]

31. I'm Lutheran

But I don't go to church until Wednesday. Can't ever wake up early enough for Sunday service. I'll let you know if the pastor reads from Luke 19.

[grannylib]

32. Ah, the Riech-Wingers' favorite parable! The parable of the talents!

(If you read Al Franken's book "Lies and the Lying Liars etc...." this is the one he was talking about.)
Reich Wing types like to use this parable to justify capitalism and profits and wealth.
It is actually a parable designed to teach us that all we have is a gift from God, and we are not to squander our gifts but use them to God's glory.

Don't take it too literally; that's a fundie error.

[OctOct1]

39. Yes, this is very close

It is the Parable of the pounds.
But same message.
I found this on the internet explaining the Parable of the pounds

Why do the rich get richer? Why do successful people become more successful? Because they take full advantage of everything they receive -- and every little bit more makes them more successful. Losers, on the other hand, talk like victims, and either spend everything you give them or put it away fearfully for a rainy day. God expects you and me to have faith enough to succeed, and then succeed again and again. Investing God's gifts takes faith as well as love for our Master.

Link here about 3/4 down on page under heading---The Faithful Will Receive More (19:22-26)
http://www.jesuswalk.com/lessons/19_11-27.htm

[JVS]

40. Did your pastor talk about it in the sermon? What did he have to say?

[RPM]

41. Kind of

Are there any Lutherans in the house?? - Only if you count thowewho were born into, baptized into, but never confirmed (didnt want pastors BS), and only make it twice per year (only X-mas this year)...

Did anyone go to church this morning?? No, See above..


Was your reading Luke 19: 11-27? Not sure - are they standardized


Were you angry and insulted??? No - I wasnt there, but i just read the aforementioned verses...


I was. I don't think I am angry or insulted... Some hard-ass leader got mad because the servant could have been seen as breaching his fiducary duty to the master to make the most of the sum given him; while the story has its structural flaws (i want to know what happened to the dude who lost the money, but gave it the old college try), I understand it to be read, generally, for the proposition that we are to take those talents (and that word is derive, I believe from some old time currency) that the lord gives us and make the most of the - not hide them under a blanket but put them out in the world.

Unless I am missing something...

On Edit: I was missing something - the 27th Verse - the one with the slaying and all....

OK - I am somewhat disconcerted - what was the tone/message of teh rest of the sermon.... AND WHAT KIND OF LUTHERAN - Missouri Synod???