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Killarney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 06:58 AM
Original message
What is this BS about Applebee's?
What is it... a metaphor for getting to know the common man or something?
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:01 AM
Response to Original message
1. Probably.. Everyone knows that "libruls" hang out at 21
and Ciros and The Stork Club and fancy places like that ...

Commoners hang out at Olive Garden, Applebees, Coco's, Marie Callendars... :eyes:

It's all about the codewords.. :puke:
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Tandalayo_Scheisskopf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:04 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Yeah, that's me...
Hanging out at all the trendiest restaurants. All the time.

In this town, that means Uncle Buck's. One of the best greasy spoons on the planet.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:05 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. We like Millies.. home of the $5.00 off the second meal coupons
:)
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radwriter0555 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #3
31. I used to bake for Milllies a LONG LONG time ago... Magenta era
pre-Radio Ranch Straight Shooter Paul.

**sigh**

Those were the days. Whatever happened to Magenta? Last I saw her, she was at the New Orleans joint in Farmer's Market like 8 years ago.
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Buddyblazon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #3
73. Well you're in SoCal right?
I spent a couple years in Hollywood. My two favorite places were In & Out...and Roscoe's Chicken 'n Waffle. Neither of them I view as being posh.

Here in Denver...its Pete's Kitchen. The epitome of a greasy spoon.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 04:09 AM
Response to Reply #73
77. There used to be a place we loved in Denver.."The Greenery"
It had huge bowls of boiled shrimp..all you could eat :)..yum..

and aother place ..damn the name escapes me.. It was a large place like a brewery..lots of copper & wood.. very good food.. I'll google.. :)
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Chelsea Patriot Donating Member (603 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
61. 21 is "A Republican House" according to 21's Management.

I was offered a position at "21" earlier this Fall.

One of the reasons I turned down the job was that Management told me during the second interview that 21's clientele was almost exclusively Republican.

The bullshit the Republicans sell their followers is amazing. But, Hey, those Red Stater's love their shit sandwiches and beg for more!
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ElectroPrincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:07 AM
Response to Original message
4. Applebees advertizes with the SINclair networks ...
Oh mahn, I'm gonna miss the Salmon dinner but the atmosphere was snobby as hell. No big loss boycotting Applebees :-).
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:09 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. I have eaten at TWO different ones.. food was awful at BOTH..
service was terrible too..Never went back :)
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Killarney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:10 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Me too! I tried Applebees twice.
In two different states and it was awful!!

I'm just wondering what the hell the Dem Strategists are talking about when they say we have to start eating at Applebees. It must be a metaphor for something.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #6
18. Well, either we've all eaten at the same two Applebee's
Or the odds are high that the food and service is bad, because that's how many times I've tried them and the exact result I experienced, too
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Liberal Mommy Donating Member (197 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #18
67. Do you mean crapplebees?
We ate there once and as we were leaving my daughter begged us to never eat at crapplebees again. :)
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PatrioticOhioLiberal Donating Member (456 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #6
29. How strange
We've eaten in Applebees in a number of cities and always been pleased with both the food and the service. Our home town Applebees (built between the time we moved away and returned 6 years later) has a special place in our hearts. My husband is disabled and they take extra pains to make sure he doesn't have to walk any further than necessary. One of the hostesses even insist we not wait for her, but go ahead and get to a table.

As to what "they're" saying...they are perpetrating the "conservative myth" that Dems are too "elite" to understand the "common man".

Pretty good when the supposed leaders of our own party buy into the myth wouldn't you say? :spank:
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #29
52. My son is a cook at Applebees
I have never eaten there. So can't comment on their food, but I know my son is a good cook.
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trogdor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #52
54. I'm sure he does the best he can...
...with stuff that comes out of a bag from Cisco.
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NoPasaran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #6
40. I think the Dem Strategists need to start eating there
Some of them should probably be working there.
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Rich Hunt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #40
48. hilarious

That is one of the funniest posts I've read all week!

:beer:
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #40
63. ROFLMAO!!!
nicely done :)
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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 07:10 AM
Response to Reply #40
81. Well said
I'm a bit tired of these "strategists" advising anyone. Their strategy seems to be really going nowhere.

Last I heard the margin in the senate is 55/45 against us, we don't have control of the presidency, the supreme court, or the House.

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comsymp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 07:15 AM
Response to Reply #40
84. Beautiful!
It's about time our "leaders" stop behaving like the stereotypes created by the Right, and demonstrate who "real Americans" really are.
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Rich Hunt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #6
47. it's mentioned in Tom Frank's book

So that's where they must have gotten the idea.

They're thinking, 'hey, let's not be elitist - let's eat where the red people eat'. Which is transparently elitist.
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fwiff Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #6
50. I call it Crapplebee's, but, hey, I'm just immature....
I have names for a lot of them. :D There are some chains that are okay, but most are just awful.

Be more 'common', I guess. Sorry, I have taste buds. I guess that makes me a liberal elitist.
I'd much rather go to the local pizza joint or diner
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Liberal Mommy Donating Member (197 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #50
68. LOL I just posted about crapplebees
Great minds think alike eh? ;)
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teach1st Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:13 AM
Response to Original message
7. I thought I saw the Bush family...
..having a reunion or something at Applebees. No pretensions for the Republicans. They're salt of the Earth.

A waitress told me that the Bush party stiffed her, though.
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unblock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:17 AM
Response to Original message
8. why do they hate cracker barrel?
i've usually found cracker barrel to be consistently good, and probably has more of the demographic appeal and wide recognition they're looking for, rather than applebee's.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:18 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Perhaps the name is scary to them
:)
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Mend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:32 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Cracker Barrel
made a big deal some years ago about not hiring gays....I am not sure how they know who is what, but maybe they strap protential busboys to a penolator machine and show them porn. Anyhow, our fam has boycotted their skanky hides for years.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 02:24 AM
Response to Reply #10
70. They made the mistake of refusing to serve
...a couple of black guys, I think during the Clinton era. The guys were either Feds or Secret Service. They sued and won.

Talk about a barrel full of stupid crackers!!!
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drbtg1 Donating Member (932 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 07:14 AM
Response to Reply #70
83. I think that was Denny's
Edited on Mon Nov-15-04 07:16 AM by drbtg1
I could be wrong though
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #83
91. They were in hot water this past SEPTEMBER!
http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/09/09/cracker.barrel.ap /
....Cracker Barrel restaurant chain has agreed to pay $8.7 million to settle lawsuits accusing the restaurant chain of mistreating and segregating black customers and discriminating against black employees

I thought that the Denny's lawsuit was Secret Service and that there was also a suit by a couple of FEEBS against CB...but I could be wrong, too...I don't patronize either place, so it isn't clear in my mind.

Whatever...they're idiots, and they ain't getting my money!
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Calvinist Basset Donating Member (318 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. I'm not sure what this is all about.
I must be missing something. Who's talking about Applebee's and Cracker Barrell and why? Where will I find the things to which everyone here is referring?

However, I do not go to Cracker Barrell for one simple reason: they openly discriminate by not hiring gays or lesbians. The last time I ate at one, there was a statement right on the menu stating such.
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Killarney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. Dem Strategists are talking about how Dems need to
start eating at Applebee's. I'm assuming it's a metaphor. ;)
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #14
23. Make that "DLC" leadership
which explains why such stupid "wisdom" is issuing forth. ;-)
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theHandpuppet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:39 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. Cracker Barrel is the most racist, homophobic place on earth!
Why in hell do you eat there? How many lawsuits from the NAACP does it take to convince people that Cracker Barrel EARNED its nasty name? Hell, they make Denny's look like an advertisement for Affirmative Action! Not only that, but they have an OFFICIAL company policy that excludes gays from being hired -- or if they find out an employee is gay, they can be fired on the spot. I knew a guy who was fired for that very reason and I saw firsthand his severence papers which specifically stated his homosexuality was the reason he was being fired.

Cracker Barrel CAN GO TO HELL. And they give ALL their money to Repukes just to top it off.
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unblock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. wow, thanks for the info. i knew all about denny's, but hadn't heard boo
about cracker barrel's policies & lawsuits.
off to do some googling...
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unblock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. no longer "official" policy. but sadly i don't think i'll be returning...
http://www.glbtq.com/social-sciences/boycotts,3.html

Boycotts
page: 1 2 3 4


Estimates varied on how much the boycott cost Colorado. State tourism officials acknowledged a loss of some forty million dollars in convention and tourism business, while boycott organizers put the figure in excess of one hundred million dollars.

A similar boycott has been proposed against the state of Virginia, whose General Assembly passed a measure in 2004 outlawing civil unions and "any partnership contract or other arrangements that purport to provide the benefits of marriage." The provision has serious implications for important family matters such as decisions regarding emergency health care and hospital visitation.

Sponsor Message.


Cracker Barrel Boycott

In 1991, Cracker Barrel, a restaurant chain headquartered in Lebanon, Tennessee and prolific in the American South, fired eleven gay and lesbian workers for violating a new policy banning the employment of persons "whose sexual preferences fail to demonstrate normal heterosexual values which have been the foundation of families in our society." The blatant homophobia of this action, legal in the cities and states in which the employees worked, touched off a wave of national criticism and protests at Cracker Barrel restaurants throughout the country, and a boycott called by the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force.

In the face of bad publicity, the company soon rescinded its explicit policy banning the employment of homosexuals, but it stubbornly refused either to rehire the dismissed employees or, for many years, to add sexual orientation to its non-discrimination policy.

After years of protests, as well as vigorous debates on shareholder resolutions (sponsored principally by the New York City Employees Retirement System, a major stockholder) at the company's annual meetings, in December 2002 the board of Cracker Barrel's parent company voted unanimously to add sexual orientation to the company's non-discrimination policy. In response the boycott was ended, though many glbtq people still refuse to patronize the company.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #12
21. Last time I ate at Cracker Barrell I saw Zell Miller!
No kidding, Just this last March I was driving cross country with my parents, my twelve year old niece and my five year old daughter. We stopped at Cracker Barrel on Jimmy Carter Blvd in Atlanta, and a while later Zell Miller walked in and sat across from us. My mother, who's from Mississippi and is not used to seeing celebrities, kept staring, so finally I asked her "You can't tell whether to impressed or horrified, can you?" "No!" she says, "I can't, but I want to go tell him he's a traitor." He probably heard her.

Later my five year old was playing with toy cars in the store section, and she rolled a toy VW that rolled right into a man's foot. She tried to run over Zell Miller with a VW! It was the wrong size, though.
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GiovanniC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. Zell Miller: Putting the Cracker in Cracker Barrell
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PROGRESSIVE1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 07:26 AM
Response to Reply #21
86. "KKKrackkker Barrel"
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Ekirh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #12
41. Woah
I was completely unaware about that..... I'll be avoiding cracker barrel for now on.
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Liberal Mommy Donating Member (197 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 02:20 AM
Response to Reply #12
69. waa I didn't know!!
I'm sooo glad I found this board. I will never step foot in a Cracker Barrel again. I had never heard this but I just did a search and sure enough up came an article about it. Though the article says they have changed their policy now. It still makes me furious and I refuse to give them another dollar. :evilfrown:
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OKNancy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #8
16. The truth about Cracker Barrel - changed their policy
over seven years ago.

Whenever I read somthing like this, I go straight to snopes or google and see if it is true. It's not.

In 1991 there was a policy. Doing a little googling, it looks like the policy was changed in 1997.

They added anti-discrimination against gays to their hiring policy in 2002.

A few tid-bits:


http://www.shame.org/detail.html?14

Update: Thursday December 5 2002

Cracker Barrel Adds Sexual Orientation to Non-Discrimination Policy!

The board of CBRL Group Inc., the parent company of Cracker Barrel
Old Country Stores and Logan's Roadhouse restaurants, has voted unanimously
to add sexual orientation to the company's non-discrimination policy.

Cracker Barrel, based in Old Lebanon, Tenn., drew national attention
in 1991 when it instituted a company policy that called for terminating
employees "whose sexual preferences fail to demonstrate normal heterosexual
values which have been the foundation of families in our society."

At least 11 workers were fired as a result. The company's
discrimination - which was legal in the states where it occurred and remains
legal under federal law - touched off a wave protests and boycotts at
Cracker Barrel restaurants.

Wayne Besen
Gay Financial Network, December 4, 2002
http://www.gfn.com/news/story.phtml?sid=12667

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Comment: Wednesday February 12 2003
Yeah, I think its time to drop Cracker Barrel off the list. They're now under boycott by the American Family Association because of their change. Why would we want to continue to be an enemy?


---------------------
Comment: Saturday January 4 2003
I am a gay Corporate employee of Cracker Barrel Old Country Store Inc. We are based in Lebanon Tennessee and we are a Restaurant/ retail operation. (The Cracker Barrel Cheese Company is not the same as us) This last year (2002) we added sexual orientation to our written nondiscrimination policy. Cracker Barrel has actually been a safe place for gay people to work for much longer. About a third of the department I work in is gay & lesbian.
I have worked for Cracker Barrel for over 9 years, and do not wish to work anywhere else.I have never been in the clost or felt compelled to hide.
We have gone through many changes in the last several years, some of which have allowed gay people to become more ecomfortable than they already were. Yes there were some problems in the past, and those issues are in the past.
It seems that some of our periodicals still won't let up on the company no matter what they do. What is the value in reporting who belongs in the "Hall of Shame" if we dont give credit to companies who do the right thing?
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uncle ray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #16
57. i'll be giving cracker barrel a try
i haven't been there yet. their regional manager or something came to my girlfriends store the other day, gave every employee a coupon for a free meal for two, including appetizer drinks and dessert! so whether they discriminate or not i'll enjoy the free meal at their expense, and give them a chance.

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Kitka Donating Member (488 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #16
59. Not true.
Officially their policies may have changed, but as frequently as a year ago a friend of mine was fired because he came out to co-workers as gay.

They're just better at covering it up now.
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PatrioticOhioLiberal Donating Member (456 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #8
25. Cracker Barrel
Picketed in Columbus, OH a few years back by GLBers for discrimination.

Numerous "settlements" of lawsuits for racial discrimination.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22cracker+barrel%...

Usually good food, good service, homey atmosphere (including roaring wood burning fireplace in winter)...but gays need not apply for jobs.

Just a bit of Cracer Barrel history for "chewing on" with your Sunday Brunch.

:donut:

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OKNancy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #25
37. That's not true
please read my post #16

I don't even eat there, and have no interest in it except I like to know the truth about things.
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PatrioticOhioLiberal Donating Member (456 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #37
42. Changing the "official" policy
doesn't necessarily change the "actual" policy.

Don't get me wrong, we eat there occassionaly and enjoy their food. And I hope, with time, the "culture" that bred the discrimination goes away. However, I have my doubts that it will with the Radical Right gaining an ever tightening strangle hold on the politics of this country.

Does anyone really believe the Theocracy they are trying to build will uphold ANY anti-discrimination legislation?
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MountainLaurel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #8
60. Racism and homophobia
Several years ago, CB instructed its managers to fire all employees who they thought were gay, because having gay employees would not be in line with its "family values" image.

As for the racism, CB recently was fined because of a history of not providing the same level of service to African-American customers. On a personal note, a friend of color has twice had to leave CBs in Tennessee after being told by the hostess that they don't serve n****rs there. Once, she was with her college dance troupe; another time, she was with her grandmother.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:42 AM
Response to Original message
13. it's the leadership realizing
that they've haven't known what the fuck they were talking about for some time and grasping at cultural tourism as a way to "reconnect" with the common folk.

Retch.
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kodi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #13
19. those in the know are aware that real southerners eat at the waffle house
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 08:11 AM by kodi
applebee's is too up scale for us crackers, and i dont mean cracker barrel crackers either.

repeat after me...smothered, scattered, um good.

"applebee's" americans was coined by that grand poobah of intellectual pablum, david brooks; he who channel's de toqueville on crack knows nothing about the south and thinks that a leisurely weekend drive into rural pa or maryland makes him a cultural anthropologist for a society covering several hundred thousand square miles.

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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #19
26. indeed!
If we're going to go this route, it does need to be Waffle House. You forgot the "covered" part of the hash browns order, though... ;-)

Frank, we're being led by ignoramuses.
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kodi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #26
32. bretheren, only a true southerner knows the code words at WH!
john, i think you know why i was so damned antagonistic at the DUer dem strat for poopooing the impact of the swift boat vet ads and their impact down these parts. that stuff has an impact down here even if northeners do not understand it.

the mainstream dem leadership advisers are not grounded in working class sensibilities and have no idea of how to connect to us working class stiffs. they try various gambits to make it look like they are just plain folk and it works about as well as calvin coolidge wearing that indian war bonnet.

i chalk it up to the demise of labor movement strength in the democratic party and the ancillary lack of focus on economic democracy. the well heeled, well educated political wonks that abound in the democratic party structure have not lived a life on the edge of poverty and do not appreciate what can strike a cord with rural working class folks.

i also think that the north and the far west are cultures where there is a significant focus on education arising from second and third generation immigrant populations whose only way into mainstream america has been education. we listened to our grandparents talk about what it was like coming right off the boat to be discriminated and realized only a good education would lift us up. in the south, there is no burning desire to improve one's lot... except for african americans, the working class south seems content on status quo and in fact fight against progress since progress to many appears as capitulation of white dominance of the majority culture.
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itzamirakul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #32
36. Good Post!
I heartily agree!
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #32
38. I do.
I shared your antagonism toward DemStrat. We have to pound it into these idiots that we have to dispense with the wonkery and the hairsplitting, the attempts at surgially peeling off an extra five security moms in this market, maybe an office park dad or two with a liberal bent in that market. While we're out diddling our focus groups and putting people to sleep, the GOP is ramming their faux values down their throats.

Your point about the demise of labor and the effect of that on the party is very well taken.
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FizzFuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #32
46. really interesting post
your analysis makes sense to me just from general observations. (I'm not an expert, but sure am interested in the social dynamics you're talking about.)

One question, wonder what you think--
I don't get the impression that the Thug leadership comes from any more common-man roots than the Dems. So what would be the forces shaping the perception that the Thugs speak for "us" and that Georgey "Billionaire" Bush is a regular guy? Is it just photo ops and stupid speech patterns? Is it the puritanism/xenophobic appeal to hate one's neighbor if she's different from you that draws people to them?

Would the Dem pattern of education and pulling oneself up by the roots have some kind of weird inverse corollary in Rep aristocracy and entitlement? Keep the working masses where they are? Southern working class status quo dovetails with that?

Just questions that came to mind; I wouldn't mind seeing your take on them. :)
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kodi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #46
53. i agree its the social dynamics that we have to appreiciate
One question, wonder what you think--
I don't get the impression that the Thug leadership comes from any more common-man roots than the Dems. So what would be the forces shaping the perception that the Thugs speak for "us" and that Georgey "Billionaire" Bush is a regular guy? Is it just photo ops and stupid speech patterns? Is it the puritanism/xenophobic appeal to hate one's neighbor if she's different from you that draws people to them?


you are correct vis a vis bush and his personal wealth, yet his message, and those who actually craft it understand what motivates rural folk better than democrats seem to. i was specific to mention the dems to whom i was refering were those who make policy and not specifically those running for office. the elected officials are really avatars for policy stands that are usually developed by background wonks, and naturally they bring their personal experience to the task of framing the issues and their positions.

just one issue is illustrative of the north-easter-big city dem strategist is the issue of guns, where in the urban areas guns have an awful negative impression, but in rural areas, like my own, gun ownership is natural. last year on DU i was castigated for my own possession of guns especially a shot gun for varment control. it was implied that i was a red-neck (ask ulyesses if that is apropos about me) and i responded that the next time i have to clear out a nest of posionous snakes on my property i would call the anbti-gun poster so he could come over to my house and use bad language on the copperhead nest.

simple things like that make the dems look like they are from another planet and do not understand the ebb and flow of life in rural areas.

Would the Dem pattern of education and pulling oneself up by the roots have some kind of weird inverse corollary in Rep aristocracy and entitlement? Keep the working masses where they are? Southern working class status quo dovetails with that?


these same areas are poor, ill-served by government services and yet return again and again those republicans to office who do nothing to deliver needed services.

why? i wish i knew, but i suspect it is because those who would work to provide the services have not been able to graft their positions onto the narrative by which most of these rural folk live by. as so, they and their positions appear foreign and your remark of "puritanism/xenophobic appeal" is valid.

education is more important in a cosmopolitan, dynamic social culture awash with new people and new ideas, whereas a society that for generations has not been impacted by dramatic change with foreign populations and the diverse cultural artifacts is prone to inertia.

and yes, it is, if not a plantation mentality one that brooks little to none of the social climbing education brings found in the north and west. it is a static social culture and i think it came from the lack of culturally diverse immigration to the states of the old confederacy in the late 19th and early 20th century found in the north and west. it is no surprise that the "Nativist" movement of the 1910-20's was in response to the national dominant culture was english/scotch/german being undermined by eastern and southern european immigrant cultures in the east and by east asian cultures on the west coast.

with minority cultures, there are social structures parallel with the dominant one; doctors, lawyers, bankers, and other professionals that reach their station by education. in the northern cities there were completely functional minority societies within a greater anglo saxon culture. the ability for cross over to the dominant cultural social structure by jewish lawyers, by italian doctors, by polish engineers etc, has been driven by education. and now in the 21st century the populaton is awash with these people who make up a larger part of the population than those of the anglo-saxons, so what was once an exclusive culture is now a blended one.

in the south, the only minority culture has been the black culture, which had been stifled for generations. yet even there education was the only way for blacks to succeed, until recently they have not been allowed to cross over and become a part of the dominant social structure.

the working class and rural southern folk were already a part of the dominant culture and their efforts for advancement were blocked by those already in command of the social structure. there was nowhere else to go.

it is not surprising that few rural/southern inhabitants would agree with what Pericles said 24 centuries ago:

"All good things of the earth flow to the city."

because they do not associate "the City" with themselves regardless of what Pericles actually meant.....civilization itself.

and i just wish that when kerry attacked bush on tax cuts he would have reminded his listeners of oliver wendel holmes' remark "that taxes were the price we pay for civilization."
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #53
58. you're not a redneck?
;-)

I've moderated a great deal on gun control myself in the last few years, and I think Dean had it right in the primaries (for what little that's worth now).

There are many ways, as a party, in which we *could* pry apart the bigoted white southern shell and get at our neighbors' pink little consciences, but we won't because we're too afraid to speak the truth.
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FizzFuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #53
89. kodi thank you great response
thanks for answering my questions...and I'm sorry I didn't reply yesterday, especially since you took the time.

You're right, about the policy makers being the ones mostly responsible for the message and focus --I hadn't thought of that. I wonder if the Dem leadership is looking for someone as brilliant but less Machiavellian as KKKarl.

You explained the dynamism of coastal culture vs the stasis of inland culture really well, I hadn't thought of that either. Being a lifetime Northeaster, I take the culture of education and respect for diversity as a matter of course, and find intolerant, bigoted or ignorant attitudes incomprehensible and, frankly, repellant. Especially the hostility to thinking and discernment. You gave me some framework that makes it somewhat more comprehensible.

<<i responded that the next time i have to clear out a nest of posionous snakes on my property i would call the anbti-gun poster so he could come over to my house and use bad language on the copperhead nest.>>
LOL, good one. About gun control--I can see the sense in what you say; definitely urban areas would have a very negative outlook on guns, while rural areas where they are more likely to be used for sport and protection against dangerous animals, they would be seen as useful or necessary tools. One bit of discrimination I wish the pro-gun people would practice though, is seeing the difference between rifles or small hand guns versus FRIKKEN AUTOMATIC SUB MACHINE GUN ASSAULT WEAPONS!!!!! Hello people?? Work with me here?? What is going on in their minds? Oh yeah, its that lack of nuance and hostility to thinking. "Gee if they ban those high power turbo laser cold-fusion powered etc etc, that means they'll take away my hunting rifle too."

<and i just wish that when kerry attacked bush on tax cuts he would have reminded his listeners of oliver wendel holmes' remark "that taxes were the price we pay for civilization.">
I don't think it would have helped. The people paranoiacally protecting their culture of stasis wouldn't get it.
Thank you for that Pericles quote, I am completely unschooled in greek wisdom. I can never remember important quotes anyway, wish I could bring them up like you did.

:toast:
Fizz-O
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m berst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 02:59 AM
Response to Reply #32
74. great post kodi n/t
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kayell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #19
27. Or a local "meat and three"
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 08:34 AM by kayell
Glossary for Yankees: so-called because the meals are always based on your choice of one meat or fish dish and three choices from a long list of veg or side dishes. Also serve vegetable plates - 4 to 5 veg* and a side of cornbread or biscuit. Sweet tea to drink - usually served in a pitcher. (*greens, green beans, and beans almost always cooked with ham or side meat. Hard on us veggies) Usually around $4 to $5 for lunch.

Applebees? Far to expensive for most people other than as a "treat". (well, not a treat for me, yuck) Corporate restauranting at it's worst.

Edit: should our pols decide to wise up and find some of these places, there's a guidebook. http://www.blairpub.com/travel%20titles/backroadbuffets...
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. right.
The idea that we can take the pulse of heartland America sitting in a goddamned theme restaurant says a variety of unflattering things about our leadership. If you want to "get out among the folks", then go for it, but really do it.

Diners, not Disney.
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kayell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. "Diners, not Disney." Perfect description of how they need to think. nt
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independentpiney Donating Member (966 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #27
43. Man, I love those local 'meat & three' places in the South
When traveling I'll always search out the local places, even when it means an extended trip off the interstate. The only chain place I'll ever stop at is Shoneys for breakfast with the all u can eat biscuits and gravy. Not as good as homemade, but they're passable.

thanks for the guidebook link, just ordered one!
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Rich Hunt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #27
55. applebee's is a code word for...

Middle-class Republicans who live and work in the sticks, as opposed to urban yuppies who drink lattes and eat ethnic cuisine. You're right, there's nothing 'blue-collar' about it, but that's not the demographic they're interested in.

The right have long tried to portray the small business owner and the expensive truck owner as 'common man'. This is the Rush Limbaugh demographic.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #55
66. I think you're right. They are talking about people who

live in Cobb County, Georgia, a place full of RWers who moved down from the Midwest or North and, once here, decided they hated blacks and Hispanics.
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kayell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 04:31 AM
Response to Reply #66
79. LOL I know exactly the type you're talking about,
Edited on Mon Nov-15-04 04:36 AM by kayell
In SC, they have come from Michigan (why so many from Michigan?) or upstate NY, they settle in McMansions on one of the lakes or at Myrtle beach. Once here, the absorb all the worst aspects of the South (although I think most brought it with them). After moving down for a slower lifestyle and better climate, they call me up to complain bitterly (from their brand spanking new McMansion) that SC is getting crowded, the view of the lake is ruined, and that they can't grow lilacs and bluegrass, as though I should do something about that for them immediately.

*for non-gardeners - you can't grow bluegrass here, it's too hot. You can't grow decent lilacs here, it doesn't get cold enough. Plant a gardenia and be happy.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #27
64. A good "meat and three" beats Applebees, Cracker Barrel,

et al., by a country mile. You can also eat well, and inexpensively, at the many Mexican and Chinese restaurants that have been springing up in the South for the past twenty years or more. Recently a group of friends and I visited a new country style buffet here and I wasn't terribly surprised to find it run and staffed by Chinese. They do an admirable job of cooking like a Georgia grandma, though the mashed potatoes were clearly instant. Salmon croquettes and good pole beans made that sin forgivable.

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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #27
71. How amusing!!!
In Great Britain and Ireland, your 'meat and two veg' refer to the male anatomy....meat and three would suggest a rather astounding mutation!
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Swede Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:10 AM
Response to Original message
20. Why on earth would a company piss off so many customers.
It doesn't make sense economcally. You would have to really hate someone to damage your business.
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BlueManDude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
22. I'd rather lose elections than eat at Applebee's
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 08:17 AM by BlueManDude
give me a smokey dive bar with character, a big greasy burger and a cold Red Stripe. F Applebee's.
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kazlab67 Donating Member (28 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:47 AM
Response to Original message
33. That's nothing...Try to order a Chili Pepper at Chili's!
I have an open dare to everyone. Try to get a baked Chili on your Fajita's. They told me they no longer serve Chili's at Chili's. As per their Customer Service. Told me Applebees doesn't serve apples...
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itzamirakul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:48 AM
Response to Original message
34. There's an Applebee's three blocks from me...
and I have never been in there in the 25 years I have lived in this neighborhood. I have never seen a Cracker Barrel. I like Olive Garden and Red Lobster but I think that $17.00 for a plate of pasta and some chicken bits is way over the top just as Red Lobster is...so I don't go. I tend to support my neighborhood diners and fast foodies and Chinese restaurants (though I must admit that their food is getting worse and worse), where I can eat for at least $10.00.

Two days ago, I ordered a SMALL pizza, with sausage and a half order of Buffalo wings from Dominos and it came to $16.27! Plus a tip! I almost fainted! I am buying frozen pizzas at the supermarket from now on!
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. make your own pizza.. It's easy..and you can have what YOU want on it
I use a cookie sheet (with sides)..sprinkle a bit of cornmeal and then press the dough with your hands.. let it rise a bit and top with whatever you want..

better than storebought or delivered pizza
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itzamirakul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #35
39. Good advice!
I'm gonna take it! :)
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Keirsey Donating Member (508 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #39
44. Applebee's

Lloyd Hill, CEO, donated $5,000 towards a rightwing Congressional candidate. Kobach, a former aid to John Ashcroft, and who had Cheney come out to campaign for him, lost.

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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
45. How About The Beans & Rice Population, The Newly Arrived Hispanics
don't eat at Applecraps. The people I've worked with eat at home and cook very economically AND healthily.

They also live 12 people in a house built for 4.

They work 2 low paying jobs and send a lot of money and clothing etc. back to family still in Puerto Rico, Costa Rica, Columbia.

These people can't afford to eat out.
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notadmblnd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
49. I don't do chain resturants period.
If I can't find a mom and pop place, I cook at home.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
51. I can barely afford Applebees at this point
And I have a decent job. Yeah, I've been missing hanging out with all the other liberal elitists at the pricey French bistro. Y'all better go ahead and toast each other with expensive wine and nibble pate without me!
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Lefty48197 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
56. Applebees, TGIFriday's, Bennigans - All those chain restaurants suck
.
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otohara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
62. I Live In The City - To Eat At AB's I'd Have To Drive Far, Far Away
to eat at a large, noisy eatery that serves mediocre food. Why would I do that?
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liberalpragmatist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 01:51 AM
Response to Original message
65. It's ironic - saying "real people eat at Applebee's" sounds ELITIST
The strategists are trying to overcome an elitist point of view. But does it strike anybody else as ironic? I mean, here they are, assuming that if they "eat at Applebee's" then they'll get more "heartland" voters? Saying that in itself is elitist and out-of-touch.
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American Tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:55 AM
Response to Reply #65
76. I am sick of being told that I and other liberals are "outside mainstream"
We're not supposed to windsurf. We're not supposed to know foreign languages, especially French. We're not supposed to be too interested in reading or in the world around us. We're not supposed to use too many big words. We're not supposed to eat at fine or exotic restaurants. There's more, but I can't think of them right now.

I feel assaulted by this message that anything that remotely deviates from this arbitrary image of Average American is unacceptable and offensive and wrong.

I don't begrudge other people their activities and interests. So who the fuck are they to judge me?
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regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 02:43 AM
Response to Original message
72. I utterly fail to understand why Applebee's...
...is supposed to be "Joe Sixpack" domain in these arguments. The one I know of has a sort of retro "tornado hit an antique store" decor, with fake Tiffany lamps everywhere, but it never struck me as being anywhere close to Redneck City. And the menu and prices aren't exactly working-class-friendly, either. It strikes me more as the sort of place twentysomething yuppie-wannabes would hang out at on Friday night -- any Republicans that would be in that crowd would likely be entry-level stockbrokers, not "moral values" types.

The food isn't bad, but not exactly memorable. The branch I know of is on a shopping-mall strip near a Tony Roma's, a Red Robin, and an Outback, and there used to be a Houlihan's nearby. I'd be hard-pressed to tell an entree from Applebee's apart from one found at any of the others (although it would probably be a cut above Outback).

If the pundits had specified that Democrats need to get in touch with the voters that eat at "Francine's Chicken & Waffles," I could understand. Mentioning Applebee's as a mecca for The Common Folk only makes them seem even more out of touch to me.

:shrug:
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American Tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:37 AM
Response to Original message
75. I just don't eat at franchises out of personal preference.
I support local independent restaurants with my money. Wide variety of selections, including Indian, Cuban, Arabian, Vietnamese, Mexican, Italian, Japanese, Thai, Greek, etc. The atmosphere is awesome too, usually overwhelmingly filled and staffed with fellow progressives.

Most importantly, I love food, and the entire ritual of eating. In my family, we have always invested more in cooking and in dining out, and spend more for eating nutritiously on a daily basis. I understand if others don't feel like that or aren't able to do it, but I was raised that way and I have no intention of changing.
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Rich Hunt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 07:10 AM
Response to Reply #75
82. I'm part Italian

We didn't have a lot of money when I was growing up, but for god's sake, if you're going out to eat, you eat real Italian food at some family-owned place, NOT Olive Garden!

:puke:
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American Tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #82
88. I definitely agree
I really hate Olive Garden. I went there once with a friend and her mother and it was just dismal. Cookie-cutter selection with cheap ingredients, like an "Italian Style" TV dinner. Maybe that's what they like, I dunno. But there are so many great Mediterranean restaurants in Louisville just around the corner. In my opinion, life is just too short to squander your sensory pleasures like that.

For generations, since my great-grandparents came here, dining has been a family ritual, a chance for all of us to sit together and bitch about politics, and make sure that the kids are being exposed to the subject appropriately. What could possibly be better? The elitists who knock it should try it.
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MountainLaurel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #82
92. Heck, we couldn't get that
As kids, we never went out to the local Italian restaurants. My mom's attitude was: "I make that same food at home. Why I should I spend $10 on it when I'm eating out."
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Piperay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 04:16 AM
Response to Original message
78. I've never been to Applebees and
don't even know where one would be located in the Los Angeles area. :shrug:
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 06:37 AM
Response to Original message
80. In Texas, you go to the cafe near the courthouse....
In the downtown area that might be moribund--or might be undergoing a rebirth. Breakfast (with grits), then the aforementioned "meat & three" for lunch.

Or you go to the local Mexican place for the combination plate.

Or--if you're really into chains--Dairy Queen, of course!
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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 07:23 AM
Response to Original message
85. I don't know if anyone
Edited on Mon Nov-15-04 07:23 AM by fujiyama
has seen that Simpsons episode where Moe changes the bar to Moe's family restaurant.

Well Crabapplebees or Crapplebees is just like that. A bunch of stupid kiche thrown all over the place.

I haven't had any problem with the place, but it's mostly overpriced.
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drbtg1 Donating Member (932 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 07:44 AM
Response to Original message
87. something else to consider...cleanliness
I have a patient who does inspections for cleanliness as part of his job. Generally, he found most franchisees do a much poorer job of this (disinfection, separate prep areas for meat and veggies, etc.) than mom and pop operations. Not absolute, but pretty close. Maybe the latter take more pride in their work and establishment.
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Rich Hunt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #87
90. that's ironic

...but it's probably true. The mom-and-pops are more vulnerable if they fail inspections.

What's ironic about it is that these restaurants claim to represent wholesome American 'family' values.
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