Roe v. Wade: What's your nightmare scenario?

[Sputnik]

Those of us who support choice are deeply concerned about the consequences for women and our nation as a whole if Roe v. Wade is eventually overturned.

We all can imagine horrible results (and our more mature generations can remember our country before the ruling) but one thing that keeps worrying me about abortion being made illegal....

When a woman miscarries, will there be a police investigation? I lost a pregnancy between my first and second children and it was an emotionally-trying time for my husband and me. My mind can't even wrap itself around the thought that law enforcement would be forced to investigate such a private and painful event for my family.

I don't intend to be pregnant again, but I fret about what the future holds for our daughters. I've even told my husband that if abortion is ever made illegal nationally, I will take our daughters out of the country when they come of age. This election wasn't enough to make me want to leave, but the thought of my daughters not having control over their own bodies is.

DUers...what's your worst fear if Roe v. Wade is overturned? Are my fears an overreaction?

[benburch]

1. Standing guard over illegal abortions.

That is my nightmare scenario. Standing guard and prepared to shoot it out if discovered.

[PlanetBev]

5. It will tear this country to pieces

Assholes like Scalia and Bush don't give a fuck how much more they divide this country. The damage wrought by overturning a 30+ precedent is unthinkable. I, for one, believe that it will send shock waves through this country because so many people can't believe this will happen. Americans are used to rights being given to them, not taken away. The only other comparison I can make is Prohibiton, and we all know what happened there. I can only hope that people recognize that this misery will have been visited upon us by a Republican party that sold it's soul to the devil, and will put these monsters out of power.

My hope is that everything will be done to resist this oppression. Plananed Parenthood Federation is already talking about setting up clinics on the Canadian/US border. The Fascists will find that the world is different than it was in 1973 because of the Internet. It can be a useful tool to help women get to states like NY and California for abortion services. We have to do everything to insure that if the oppressors get their way, it will be a empty victory.

[LiberalEsto]

2. Fear for my daughters

who are 18 and 21. Fear that, if raped, they would be forced to bear the result of that terror. Fear for their friends and for every other woman of childbearing age.

And memories of my college years, when abortion was illegal. Taking up collections in our dorm to help classmates fly to Haiti for an abortion -- and praying that they would survive the procedure. Worrying about what we would do if it happened to us. Worrying how a pregnancy could destroy our chances of a college degree, while constantly being pressured by our male classmates, who refused to date us unless we "put out".

And fear that once the pro-fetus hypocrites manage to overturn Roe vs. Wade, they will go further by outlawing all forms of birth control.

[DBoon]

10. Worry about birth control and other "sexual privacy" issues

Roe v. Wade was based on two precedent-setting cases establishing the right of privacy in sexual relationships. These cases cut down state laws outlawing contraceptives. Repealing Roe v. Wade would undercut these prior cases, and open the door not only for birth control bans, but other laws regulating sexual behavior (think about anti-sodomy laws being applied to gays, laws against sex devices, etc.)

[MuseRider]

3. Young women alone

with smarmy, inappropriate quack doctors (?) with rubber tubes, coat hangers in a dark, cheap hotel room then left to fend with the consequences themselves. That is a big fear. I am old enough to remember these things.


On Edit The other big fear is a whole group of unwanted children who are treated poorly at best, abandoned or killed by abusive parents who did not want them in the first place.

[Sputnik]

9. I'm grateful to hear

from those who remember what it was like before Roe v. Wade. We need to hear your voices! I appreciate all of your replies. Since I came of age after Roe v. Wade, it's important to me to hear your experiences.

My mother recently told me that before the 1972 SupCo decision, it was not uncommon for her OB/Gyn to arrange abortions for women who already had five children but felt they couldn't afford nor handle any more children (she doesn't know why five was his cutoff.) People in the community knew this happened and said nothing of it. The women weren't even marked with a scarlet "A" because of it.

Though my mother didn't seek an abortion (nor would have qualified under that doctor's rules) she knew other women who did undergo abortions. It wasn't openly talked about but it was no secret either. This particular doctor practiced for many, many years and was highly respected. According to my mother, it was only after Roe v. Wade that people went ballistic over abortions, at least in our community (a very church-centered community I might add).

[vpigrad]

30. Here's the real horror those Jesus-freaks will create:

> The other big fear is a whole group of unwanted children who are treated poorly at best, abandoned or killed by abusive parents

Exactly! They don't care about children. They'd rather have thousands or millions of them starve rather than support a woman's right.

[Catchawave]

4. I'm old enough to remember what it was like before ....

Roe v Wade, and it was primitive. Heaven help our daughters if we ever go back to that era.

I think it was the movie Love with the Proper Stranger (?) with Steve McQueen and Natalie Wood that takes you back to those back alley days, with butcher doctors and their nasty, filthy ways. And it wasn't cheap!

Just who are these people that want it reversed ? Oh that's right, God's people.

[PlanetBev]

6. Everybody go see "Vera Drake"

It's a movie about a working class woman in England in the 1950's who does illegal abortions. This is what we'll be facing again.

[DBoon]

7. Yes

I posted a story in DU about such a thing happening in Nepal, where abortion was entirely illegal until recently. Poor woman had a miscarriage, was sentenced to 20 years in prison. She was illiterate and couldn't defend herself properly against the charges.

No if only I could figure out why the search function doesn't give me the article....

[LizW]

8. Young girls dead from coat hanger abortions

Women told they can't have a life-saving medical treatment while pregnant because it might harm the fetus.

Women routinely charged with child abuse for smoking or drinking.

Newborns in dumpsters.

Poor families with 6 or 8 hungry children they can't afford.

Poor women being forced to sell (or give, as supply exceeds demand) their children to couples of the "right" religious faith.

Those are just for starters. Birth control is next on the agenda of the fundamentalists. As soon as Roe is overturned, they will redouble efforts to prevent access to birth control. They are already making the argument that the pill causes abortion. They will argue this about almost EVERY method of birth control. And they will continue to try to limit access to the barrier methods by claiming that they lead to promiscuity.

[peacetalksforall]

11. I think it will evolve that certain Republicans are already drawing up

plans to profit from special prisons for those who seek and those who provide abortions when they overthrow it RvsW. They will state that the crime of abortionists doesn't warrnant being thrown in prisons with common murderers and thieves. The new for profit prisons for abortion will require much more scrutiny because killing a fetus is more serious than killing an adult, as we know from our willingness to kill soldiers and citizens in Iraq. Too blunt? Sorry, kind of.

Has anyone heard what the penalties will be? Castration and hysterechtomies for the doctors and seekers? Or will it be a money fee - with the money designated for weapons?

The logic defies what we thought we were about.

Abortion is a religion issue, not a government issue.

But for profit prisons is what you get when one group imposes on the other. Takevoer, is its real name.

[AngryOldDem]

12. My fear is abortions will increase exponentially

I have nothing else to add to what others have said here, other than it is dangerous, fatal folly to believe that abortion will go away at the stroke of a pen. I wish I could get my pro-life colleagues to understand that it takes a true change of heart, mind, and attitude to effect any kind of societal change on this issue -- and right now the climate -- economic and otherwise -- is not open to that.

You can't force people to accept and follow bad law. Prohibition taught us that. And that's what the outlawing of abortion would be -- a bad law.

I too have suffered two miscarriages and the thought of the state being involved in the process in any way literally makes me sick. But I do see your concern -- where does it stop?

[cali]

13. As have so many of us,

I've been thinking a lot about Roe. Here are several of the scenarios I can see developing into reality.

Likely: Nothing happens to Roe. Why? Specter gets the chairmanship of Judiciary and keeps wing-nut judges from even coming to committee. Republicans in the Senate and the administration realize that capitulating to the extremists of the religious right spells doom for the future of the republican party in 2006 and 2008.

Slightly less likely: O.K., wing-nuts get enough judges through to overturn Roe and turn it back to the state. Thirty or so states ban or severely restrict abortion. Bad for women, but also bad for the republican party. They stand a good chance of losing in 2006 and 2008. But then what happens? Can we get federal legislation through that protects a woman's right to choose? Would it stand up against a Conservative SCOTUS?

Even less likely, but horrible to contemplate: The Supreme Court is totally dominated by wing-nuts. Not only do they overturn Roe, but the Congress passes laws declaring that life begins at conception and it's upheld by the Supreme Court. Griswold is overturned and the penumbra of privacy is found invalid. A huge backlash takes place. How do we undo the damage already incurred?

Let's hope and work for the first option. The others are unacceptable even if they do severely damage the repubs ability to gain high office.

[Sputnik]

16. cali, your first scenario

I agree is the most likely. I don't believe the GOP leaders have the nerve or the motivation to ever see Roe v. Wade overturned. It's been a wedge issue for them to recruit foot soldiers to keep the GOP in power. If abortion is made illegal (as gay marriage has been already) then what will they use to brainwash these so-called "values voters" into continue doing the heavy lifting for their party?

My concern though is that the "values" leaders (Dobson, Falwell, Reed, Robertson, etc.) will bolt the GOP and form their own party if they don't get their way. The power they think they wield with the GOP has gone to their heads. They aren't likely at this point to merely stamp their feet in disappointment and them fall back in line.

It would be a good thing for the Democratic party and our country if they did bolt the GOP, so the GOP cannot allow that to happen. Will they appease that wing of their party if backed into a corner? I don't know, but I'm afraid they might.

[Cerridwen]

14. My nightmare scenario has happened and will continue.

Roe v Wade will not, repeat, not be overturned. It is much too useful as a wedge issue.

Instead, it will continue to be the case that fewer and fewer family planning clinics and doctors will offer abortion as a family planning option. More and more pharmacists will refuse birth control based on their "faith" deluded "principles."

Med students will opt out of abortion procedure training thereby decreasing the number of physicians competent to perform abortions and further reducing access to abortion.

Laws WILL be passed, state by state, under the radar, to require steeper and steeper legal and "religious" obstacles to abortion access. Parental notification, "education" prior to obtaining abortion procedures, notification of the father may become an additional deterrent, watch for "spiritual" counseling requirements, etc.

Churches will continue to indoctrinate their followers as to the sin of abortion, relating it to murder and infanticide. Young girls will continue to be subjected to the "horrors" of abortion and sex. Women within the church congregation who have an abortion or participate in non-marital sex will be ostracized and demonized much as the early Puritans did in the early days of this country.

The American medical community will continue to "discover" the health risks of abortion and possibly begin to include other "proven" health risks of various forms of birth control.

The American mental health community will add "proof" of the psychological "damage" "inherent" in aborting a "child."

The legal system will continue to give zygotes and fetuses full rights as American "citizens" and may, in fact, work to expand their rights.

Women will continue to be punished through the legal system for cases of "child abuse" for such things as smoking while pregnant (SWP), drinking while pregnant (DWP), eating junk food while pregnant, jogging while pregnant, ad infinitum.

Insurance companies will cancel insurance policies of women who SWP, DWP, eat junk food while pregnant, etc.

Building departments will deny building permits to family planning clinics because the neighbors don't want them in "their backyard" or because the risk of terrorist attacks, which will be called "conscientious objection" will be too great a security threat.

In other words, the right to abortion will be eroded in ways too subtle to see individually but which will have the cumulative effect of removing access to abortion to any but the upper 2% of the U.S. population.


Edited to add: my sister has had to have 2 DNC procedures due to 2 ectopic pregnancies. These procedures will be outlawed as "abortion" and young women such as my sister will be forced to suffer back room abortions or be allowed to die because no physician will risk the liability or loss of medical license.

[Isere]

15. I fear you are right.

That was very well stated.

This seems an appropriate thread to repeat my new mantra: "It's the criminalization, Stupid!"

Let's stop using the term "pro-life" and replace it at every opportunity with "Pro-criminalization." The right wing has co-opted the use of the lovely word "pro-life," which is a misnomer for their position and gives them a high ground they do not deserve. So often the debate on abortion is couched in terms that don't highlight the bald reality of their position: they want to lock up doctors and women!

So please, let's seize back the language and go on the offensive. We have a lot to lose, don't we?

[Sputnik]

17. They aren't "pro-life"

They are "anti-choice." Their position has nothing to do with valuing life. They prove that over and over.

[Cerridwen]

18. I agree with both of you who replied to this

This is not a "life" versus "life" position.

This is about controlling women, their economic status, their social status, their religious status, their health status, etc. Controlling women then allows "them" to control all involved in the family unit, i.e., their children, their husbands, SOs, boyfriends, whatever.

It is about enslavement of "the masses" through child birth and/or pregnancy. What some of "us" don't get is how much the control of women contributes to the control of "all."

Edited to add: this same use of control, demonization, and criminalization of preganacy also applies to the anti-gay forces present in our society. Same methods, different targets, same outcome.

[Sputnik]

19. Who else fears

that more pregnant women will be abused and/or murdered if abortion becomes illegal?

Oh well, at least it will be considered a double homicide.

....and justice for all. Right.

[bleedingheart]

20. I am going to make a TON OF MONEY

because I have a plan to bilk all the hypocritical middle class morality voters out of money when their mistress, wife or daughter gets pregnant with an unwanted pregnancy and they don't know who to turn to...

and the catch is....it will all be legal....

I think I may even have to hook up with a Home Equity specialist to help them get the money in some cases....

[Cookie wookie]

21. It's obvious that the media, which is the marketing arm

of the Republican right wing, has been marketing the Lacie Peterson trial for all this time because they wanted to promote support for a manslaughter conviction for the death of the baby. What the right wing wants is to control women totally. As I see it, they are headed in the direction of overturning Roe v Wade and if not stopped will pull it off. They are also setting in place the legal precedent to imprison anyone who gets an abortion or anyone who helps them. They are the American Taliban.

Interesting enough, though, that they appoint Gonzoles as Attny Gen, with his pro abortion record. They will move from one side of an issue to another, as they are not morally or ethically grounded. Overthrowing our democracy and gaining absolute power is their only true aim.

BTW: I was around when abortion was illegal, although the "pill" became available just as I graduated from high school. It was an oppressive time for African Americans and women, but nothing, nothing approaches what is happening now. We're looking at the loss of freedom and rights for all Americans but the very few who hold power.

[ventvon]

22. I don't have one.

Most people don't believe anything until they see it.

Like Albert Einstein said, "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I’m not sure about the former."

Most people in this country actually want the option to have a "safe" abortion available. Democrats are so caught up in intellectualism and policy, that they fail to see things in the simple terms, and so they go over the heads of most people in this country, because most people are simpleminded.

Ain't that right Frank? “There is more stupidity than hydrogen in the universe, and it has a longer shelf life.” – Frank Zappa

So, democrats need to talk more often about the fact that the country is split 50/50 on abortions. The problem for Democrats is that the opposing forces are more mobilized, organized, and determine to end "safe" abortions, because making them illegal will not stop them from occuring.

There will just be more "unsafe" abortions occuring.

Whenever there is a discussion of abortions, pro-choice people need to discuss history. What it was like before Roe v. Wade and how outlawing abortions would bring back the days of women dying in the allies. Democrats need to talk about "personal responsibility," and also hijack the promotion of abstinence as a method of preventing unwanted pregnacies instead of just pushing condoms. That would win you the support of a lot of Christians right there.

If anyone thinks it's stupid to promote responsible behavior, then they don't have a clue what it takes to win votes, or what it means to be pro-choice. There's nothing wrong with an informed and responsible choice.

Being pro-choice will not sell to anti-abortion people if they see the people who are making the choices as being "irresponsible" because they will see them as making the "wrong" choice. Making an irresponsible choice.

So, if Roe v. Wade is overturned, the horror of the results of it will probably eventually get it overturned again (then it will be legal again), but Democrats need to change their argument.

If one side is "anti-abortion", anti-the practice, then you being "pro-choice" is irrelevant to them because they are anti-"abortion" so if anyone chooses to have an "abortion" that's not a worthy decision on their part.

So, you have to compromise, meaning you have to show that you want to prevent abortions, not simply promoting the choice to have one anytime they get ready.

You do that by fiercely promoting abstinence as a means of creating a responsible society with less unwanted pregnacies, which means less abortions. This "shift in the discussion" is a pro-stable-families theme. If you don't support the teaching of abstinence as a way of taking the focus off of "abortions", then never go into politics, you don't have a future there.

[Sputnik]

23. Preventing unwanted pregnancies

thereby reducing the demand for abortion is absolutely the discussion that Democrats should seriously undertake.

But championing abstinence alone is a naive solution unless we also increase education about birth control methods.

Sex happens. It always will. We can explain to our children that abstinence is the absolute best way to prevent unwanted pregnancies (and STD's) but many if not most of them will still have sex. They need to know all of their options. Knowlege trumps ignorance.

Democrats should fund a study of other modernized countries which have a lower abortion rate than the U.S. I'd wager that these countries have much more detailed sex education than the U.S. does.

We also have to ensure that birth control methods remain easy to obtain in the U.S. Our young people should never feel embarrassed or demonized for protecting their lives and their sexual health while also taking responsibility to prevent pregnancies.

[zmdem]

24. It's been a nightmare for 30 years

The issue continues to plague American politics because Roe was decided on pretty flimsy constitutional reasoning and was therefore rejected by a significant portion of the population. Abortion opponents were left with only two options: a constitutional amendment or a reversal. Both are extremely difficult to achieve.

If the Roe decision had gone the other way, we would have some states with legal abortion and some without. Since the issue would be decided legislatively in each state, both sides would have had a chance to argue their side and influence the outcome in the ordinary give and take of democratic politics.

As it is we have a highly devisive issue that just won't go away. Reversing Roe would eliminate that. Why do we need a one size fits all answer ? If New York wants legal abortion, let them have it. If Wyoming doesn't want it, why should they be forced to ?

I liked Howard Dean's view on gun control and think it makes sense for other hot social issues, such as gay marriage and abortion.

[Hamlette]

25. It will never happen, NEVER. You are afraid for no reason

That being said, two things could happen. The court could say it is a matter of state law or it could limit abortions to first term (using the reasoning of Roe v Wade) and life of the mother.

My nightmare scenario is a state will make it illegal and also make it illegal to cross state lines to get an abortion. My state, Utah, could do that.

We'll have an underground railroad at worst.

Remind yourself that 62% of Americans support abortion as per Roe v Wade and only 9% of Americans want abortion illegal in all cases. If the Supreme Court rules adopts the position of only 9% of Americans, Bush gets impeached and the Dems control government for a long time to come. It will be the end of fundamentalist influence in government.

[Mandate My Ass]

26. I think we have bigger problems

I think they're going after contraception. About a dozen states now have "conscience clauses" so that pharmacists can refuse to fill EC and regular contraceptive prescriptions.

My real terror is based on a confluence of two recent developments. The appointment of religious whack job, David Hager, to the FDA's Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee. THis man thinks scripture is the best treatment for PMS and other serious health problems women face.

The second is Bush's plan for tort reform. I remember in one debate or interview -- I don't recall where or when -- he said he wants to make it impossible for anybody to sue for something that has FDA approval. Conversely, he wants the FDA, rather than the AMA or any non-partisan organization to have the last word on what is acceptable medical treatment.

Hager has already played a prominent role in pressuring the FDA into rescinding its approval of mifestiprone. He could now likely work on having the FDA rescind approval of BCP. No druggist would be allowed to fill a script for it even if a Dr. went ahead and prescribed it.

Think about it and weep.

[Sputnik]

27. Hager isn't a recent appointee

http://www.snopes.com/politics/bush/hager.asp

but his presence there is disturbing, yes.

[Cheswick2.0]

28. retroactive prosecution

[OnionPatch]

29. This remains the main reason why I support choice

My beliefs tell me that abortion is wrong, at least for me, however, I'm not sure I equate it to outright murder. I just can't imagine how it will be if abortion is considered murder. Will every miscarriage be investigated? Will pregnant women start getting arrested for, say, having a sip of wine or a puff of a cigarette? Or maybe for not eating her salad?
The privacy concerns are overwhelming and scary.

[Conmander in Cheat]

31. No you're not fucking concerned as a collective.

Or * wouldn't have won 1/3 of the pro-choice vote.

:mad:

[Jersey Devil]

32. Nightmare = if supremes rule fetus "life" from conception

The court could go beyond overturning Roe and declare all stages of a fetus to be "life", thereby making all abortions, under any circumstances, murder.

Merely overturning Roe would leave it up to the states. But declaring "life" to exist at the time of conception would outlaw abortion immediately on a nationwide basis.

[StrongbadTehAwesome]

33. My NIGHTMARE scenario?

Three words: The Handmaid's Tale.