Somewhere in Iraq, a soldier is reading this on Veteran's Day....

[kentuck]

Just to let him know that we have not forgotten. We know there are some that realize they are not fighting for freedom - they are fighting for oil. They are paid to fight for the Big Corporations.

But, we do not forget those that are dying. We stand with them. But we stand with them because we want them to come home and stop dying for Halliburton and Shell. Even though misguided, we want them to live rather than to die for the corporate masters.

[ewagner]

1. A Special kind of courage

It takes a special kind of courage for a soldier to have deep disturbing questions in his/her heart about why he/she is fighting but to carry on and follow orders obediently. The tradition of the United States is that elected, civilians decide foreign policy and not the military. Even when you disagree with the civilians, you honor the tradition ..... because that's part of our heritage...that's America.

Let me express my deepest respect for those who serve.

May you all be safe.

[Mabus]

2. And if they read it

I want them to know that my father, a Marine veteran of the Korean Conflict, registered and voted for the first time since 1960. He did it because he knows first hand the horrors of war. As a marine he tried his best to leave no man behind. He dragged back the bodies of three of his buddies so they wouldn't be left in the field. In doing so he was shot up so severely that he himself was left for dead. He loved his country so much that he made it back with those lifeless bodies so their families could have closure. Unfortunately for him he has never had closure because he felt used.

When he returned to the states, and to my mother, he was completely changed. His older brothers had served in WWII. They were heroes. He wasn't. He was part of a forgotten war. When the Viet Nam war heated up he realized that they were also fighting an unjust war. He loved his country so much that he protested the Viet Nam war. He was so disappointed in his country, their treatment of the troops that he put away his medals and has never hid behind them or used them as clubs to force his opinion on anyone.

He loved his country so much he voted for Kerry because he doesn't want another generation to go through what he did. War is a very drastic measure and should only be undertaken when there are no other alternatives. He questions the reasons for this war. He questions the motivation of this so-called president.

I'm not a religious person but I'm very spiritually oriented and I will pray for you in my own way. Thank you for serving our country. I only wish that I could support the cause you were sent there for. My father wishes he could too. Don't worry though. We support you but we can't support the reasons you are there.

[donsu]

3. if any of the troops are reading this I would say to them:

put down your arms and refuse to murder any more people.

if you are so damn brave, put down your gun and say NO

[mailman82]

4. Thats Wrong!!!

No matter what you may think these brave are trained to do what they do. In a situation like Iraq so much like Viet Nam It's kill or be killed. I stand with these brave people even though I am against the war. My Son is one of them. Please don't blame the warriors.

[IrateCitizen]

5. Another armchair moralist....

I get so damned sick of hearing people like you pontificating this crap!

You know something, High-and-Mighty? I used to be an officer in the Army Reserves. I filed for CO status prior to the launch of the Iraq War. If I would have been ordered to deploy, I would have likely refused and faced court martial, and probably would have served 12-14 months in military prison.

Luckily, I received an honorable discharge this September for turning down promotion to CPT.

That being said, I would NEVER dictate to another person what they should or shouldn't do in this case. You know why? Because I've been there, and know how difficult of a decision it is. Because I know what someone is giving up by taking such a stand.

It's easy for those like you to sit in your ivory towers while heaping scorn on those crawling through the muck. I wish for one second that you could be put in that position yourself, perhaps you would see that such decisions aren't quite as easy as you like to make them out to be, nestled safely in your perch high above it all.

It still amazes me at times how much this board can be like the mirror-image of FreeRepublic. Intolerance and absolutism are clearly not the sole domain of the far right -- they're quite alive among elements of the left as well.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JitterbugPerfume]

7. I ain't gonna

study war no more

<sigh>

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fatima]

13. And how is this person full of shit?

the more I am on this board, the more I realize that the hatred you people have for Arabs and Muslims is simply amazing. Simply amazing. I am as progressive as most of you claim to be, but on the subject of Iraq I have seen ZERO outrage over what is being perpetrated on the people of Iraq! You sound just like the republicans you claim to despise!

[iverglas]

15. in this particular case

you've got the gold star -- do the search ... and don't be feeding it.

Arab or Muslim it ain't.

[Fatima]

16. newsflash: this thread alone is proof.

[iverglas]

32. hey

I'm as outraged as any decent person is about the atrocity of the US occupation of Iraq -- and about the lack of outrage that is too present here, and the refusal to acknowledge that the atrocity is being perpetrated by the boys and girls from next door.

I find it difficult to assign individual responsibility for many things in this world, including things like sexual abuse perpetrated by sexually abused individuals, most any crimes committed by the oppressed and exploited, and acts of war committed by the similarly oppressed and exploited -- on any side.

I find IrateCitizen's refusal to assign any such responsibility somewhat disturbing, but I am about equally glad that he has not taken the position that if he could shoulder the responsibility in its entirety, anybody and everybody else could/should.

In general, I find USAmericans far too ready, and in fact eager, to assign blame, and so the refusal of so many to assign blame to the people actually killing the kids in Iraq is, on the surface, puzzling. That doesn't mean that I think such blame should necessarily be assigned. I'm just a bit of a wimp when it comes to blaming people suffering from obvious disabilities in terms of the actual capacity to shoulder responsibility.

Of course, blaming is often an exercise in separating "us" from "them"; we're good, and we deserve what we have because we're good; they're bad, and they deserve what they get because they're bad. Prosperity-centred religion is an outgrowth of this. Nobody's a victim, everybody is the author of his/her own fortune or misfortune.

The problem when it comes to US troops in Iraq is that large numbers of them are obviously victims. Their misfortune is to be the poor, the deluded, the excluded, those without opportunities in their society. The degree of responsibility they bear is indeed legitimately debatable.

But to the folks back home, they're "us". So they can't be blamed for what they're doing, at all, because that would make "us" bad. Only bad people do what they're doing, if they have a choice, so choice has to be taken away from the US troops in Iraq, in the minds of "us", lest "us" have to look in the mirror ... and also start re-evaluating the way "we" judge, and treat, a whole lot of other people.

It's a blind spot. It's a rather ugly one, because it permits atrocities.

But to get back to my sheep, the point of my post will be obvious if you click on the profile of the person whose post was the subject of discussion (and check your inbox) now. This was not a genuine spokesperson for any victims of anything.

[sandnsea]

12. Then why don't they?

The fighting is not just about the American occupation. It is also about inner power struggles for control, with the American troops as the convenient target. They want their land back? Stop bombing the UN and NGO's so they will come in and help set up a government. Don't want mosques bombed? Don't hide weapons in them and fight from them. I think this whole war is terrible, but the Iraqi people actually were glad Saddam was gone. Small factions took advantage of the situation and have contributed to the chaos and inflamed passions beyond what is logical and they've done it for their own political agendas.

[Fatima]

14. Convenient target?

If a foreign occupier invaded your town, would you roll over like a compliant puppy and let them search your homes at gunpoint, harass your people at checkpoints and shoot them, let them allow rampant crime and looting, steal your natural resources, install puppet leadership, etc? Open your eyes. They did not invite us. Sure, Saddam was a sonofabitch, but so are half the world's leaders and we do business with them. We are invaders in a foreign, sovereign land and we are reaping what we sow. Stop waving your flag and wake up!

My god, so much hatred of Iraqis on this board, did I stumble onto Free Republic by mistake????

[Booster]

25. Fatima, I, for one, am outraged over what we are doing in Iraq

to people, especially children, who have done absolutely nothing to us. I have expressed over and over to anyone who would listen that the Iraqis are doing exactly what we would do if we were invaded, and I have said to these people "Look me in the eye and tell me George Bush gives a shit about the Iraqi people". Then I ask, "now that we have Saddam, what the Hell are we doing in Iraq now?" Always, without exception, I get a quiet "I don't know", even from Republicans. I truly don't understand the people in this country, but I have a nephew over there and I love him very much; he's a really great guy who, as he puts it, "just doing my job". I hate Bush and hate him for putting my nephew into a situation not of his making and ordering him to do things he doesn't want to do. I don't understand the people here who aren't outraged and I just know Kerry would have ended this thing with honor for both sides. I'm sorry for what's happening to the Iraqis, but I honestly don't know what to do. We are going to have to live the 60's all over again and get out and march against this atrosity; yell, scream, throw things; whatever it takes. I hate this war.

[sandnsea]

29. What would happen in the US

If the UN invaded tomorrow you think we would ALL fight them?? I wouldn't, I'd say good god it's about damned time. You think there wouldn't be little factions that crop up to take advantage and try to create blocks of power that they don't currently have? Ulterior motives? A militia group here or there, the Army of God, even some radical liberal groups. You think that there aren't people who wouldn't be above manipulating followers into thinking they were fighting the UN or fighting the UN puppet government, or whatever. Iraq is just not as simple as all of them fighting the occupiers.

[sandnsea]

26. Propaganda flying all around

That's what I said. This is just not as simple as people rising up against the occupiers and pointing that out certainly isn't about hating Iraqi's. Truth is, most people just try to get out of the way of war. That's why there's always hoards of refugees in wars. The fighting in Iraq is not ONLY about driving out the occupiers. Sadr, he wasn't just about driving out the US, he was also about trying to claim a roll in the power structure. He used attacking the US as a tool to recruit the poorest and most powerless in his areas. The factions don't trust the political process, with good reason. If we weren't there, they'd be fighting each other. There's alot more going on than just driving out the occupiers, it's simplistic thinking. It's the same simplistic thinking that tries to say red state people only voted on gay marriage. People here, people there, are all alot more complicated than that.

[donsu]

9. the freepers want the troops to put down their guns?

you can choose to murder people

or you can choose not to

[IrateCitizen]

10. What an easy choice from your ivory tower, donsu

Like I said before, it must be nice living in a world full of such absolutes -- especially when you are not the one having to deal with the direct consequences of such decisions.

[DrWeird]

11. crap?

It's the only moral thing to do.

[IrateCitizen]

17. Is that the view from your ivory tower too, DrWeird?

This is a decision you've had to make? You've been in the shoes of these soldiers?

As someone who's been in the military, I will tell you that your greatest sense of loyalty is not to your country, but to your buddies on either side of you. The way you survive is by placing your life in the hands of those on your right and left, as they do with their lives to you.

I, thankfully, was never in combat. But I fully understand how this works. Ask any of our resident veterans, and I'm sure they'll tell you the same.

When a soldier throws his weapon down like that, it is both a moral AND immoral choice. It is moral from the standpoint that he has decided that he will no longer be a participant in the barbarity of war. However, it is immoral in that he has violated the trust of his comrades-in-arms, who are depending on him for their survival as much as he is depending on them for his.

Plus, there's the personal cost of a dishonorable discharge and the lifelong price one has to pay for that label. Of course, I assume that this could all be avoided should you agree to support the soldiers who face this sentence along with their families for the rest of their lives, right?

See, when you get down on the ground, things like this become a little murkier. Things aren't quite so absolute. But I guess none of that matters from your lofty perch, well above the messiness of it all, does it?

Like I said before, absolutism is obviously not the domain of the Freepers alone.... :grr:

See, down on the ground, it's a much murkier issue for those involved.

[DrWeird]

19. You're right, you're right.

"just following orders" is a perfectly valid excuse. Got to protect your fellow soldiers from those horrible civilians.

:eyes:

[IrateCitizen]

20. And go back to your ivory tower...

... where you need not be troubled by the ambiguity of real life, and can instead revel in the purity of your personal morality.

[DrWeird]

33. Yeah, go back to Germany.

Where you can revel in your pure strength of will.

[IrateCitizen]

34. Yeah, good comeback. How old are we? Four?

:eyes:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

24. As a vet, I mostly agree with you.

In 1963, I was young marine in Japan. We were told to prepare for deployment (to Laos - they didn't tell us at the time) to a combat zone.
Being adolescents and brainwashed into believing that we were the "best soldiers in the world", many were anxious to go and fight the "commies" (enemy of the week). Some were uneasy (mostly older married men) and a few, a very few, questioned the orders. "Questioned", in the sense that we talked amongst ourselves. None of us ever considered the idea of refusing. Not because of "patriotism" but our of fear.

This is where I disagree with you. I wasn't worried about "letting my buddies down". I was afraid of their scorn and the consequences of refusing. Dishonorable Discharge is no joke. And, marine brigs, in those days were notorious for brutality. And, afterwards?

In 1965 when I was due for discharge, they asked me to extend my enlistment to go to Vietnam to "fight the commies". By that time, I wasn't about to go and fight anyone, particularly a bunch of farmers fighting against a tyrannical government maintained by the CIA and military. I made the mistake of saying so in those words.

30 days of mess duty were the result of my youthful idealism. A small price but indicative of what the military was capable of.

It's all very nice to sit here and say what soldiers should do. Quite different when you are one of the soldiers and faced with the full weight of military "justice".

I loathe glorification of the military and "our troops", but I can't justify making them all murderous villains. Neither are they heroes. Mostly, they are ignorant, young, cannon fodder, who don't believe they can die.

[TahitiNut]

27. Agreed, IC.

The 'chain of command' is People -> Government -> Military.

That's also the 'chain of responsibility.'

Asking people on the bottom to sacrifice that, in more ways than one, which I don't see masses of People sacrificing, is unethical and irresponsible. Until I see masses of People engaging in civil disobedience and sacrificing their freedom, I have absolutely no patience for the armchair cowards who ask those who've placed their trust in (and surrendered their will to) We the People to surrender the rest of their lives to being mutineers.

[Fatima]

18. Now look at this thread- perhaps all is NOT lost at DU

This person is wonderful for doing this...I will do something similar.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2644448&mesg_id=2644448

[Eurobabe]

21. don't blame the troops, blame the leadership or lack of it.

i donated some cash to an older gent vet sitting in a store today for a veterans poppy. he said thank you mam, i said no sir it is me that should be thanking you. i think he was dumbfounded.

wes clark opened my eyes to the sacrifice the veterans have made and continue to make for this country. iraq is a whole different story, i personally think alot of kids got suckered by bushco....will they ever trust us again?

[Hawkeye Pierce]

23. Yes, please do not blame us blame bush.

Most of us that ended up over in Iraq signed up to defend our country not, to be used as pawns in order to line the pockets of haliburton,bush and his cronies.

[Nashyra]

28. Some of these troops joined Clinton's volunteer army

My dad is a Korean War Veteran, he worked with me on the Clark campaign at 76 traveling to New Hampshire, he went to New York with for a WesPac affair, he donated money for the Kerry Campaign and helped me with my work in Nevada in an attempt to turn NV blue. He was on the front lines in Korea, he killed or took a chance of being killed. He was/is 100% behind Kerry because of his service in Vietnam and the stance he took when he got back. There are many soldiers who do not support this war and are there now in the line of fire because of their leadership. Many of them are trying desparately hard not to kill civilians, but how do you distinguish between freedom fighters and terrorist, you don't. These soldiers have been put in an impossible postion, kill or be killed or watch your buddies be killed. I imagine that quite a few of us here on DU have not faced combat, my thoughts and prayers to our soldiers in Iraq, their families and the people of Iraq. I for one do not blame our troops, I blame our leadership as does my dad who I learned alot from on this journey we took together this year. At 76 years old he did what he thought he should do, he fought for his country by being part of the ground war here in the US trying to take our country back.

God Bless our troops and for the Iraqi people, let this madman directing this assault be given due justice at some point in time, sooner rather than later.

[Spazito]

22. It is now 11 oclock where I live and, we are honoring our veterans as...

well. Here is a link to a video from our Armed Forces site and it contains a very moving song called 'A Pittance of Time' that calls for remberance. I think this song could stand for all armed forces around the world. Here is the link to the video for those interested:

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/chief_land_staff/remembrance/English/video.asp

[Booster]

30. Wow, that was beautiful. I'm bawling like a baby after watching

that very moving video. Everybody please watch it and pass it along to any vets/servicemen & women that you know.

[merh]

31. Thank you soldiers for all of your courage and sacrifices.

I am sorry that you have to be there.

I promise you that I will not forget you or let you be forgotten!

:loveya: :hug: :yourock: