We can't prove it was stolen. Four more years of hell.

[Cyrano]

Even if we could get our hands on all the voting machines in the country right now, the evidence is gone.

The circumstantial evidence that indicates a stolen election is overwhelming. Nonetheless, with all due respect to Bev Harris and BBV, I doubt that there's any remaining evidence that could hold up in court. (The best we could hope for are whistle-blowers from Diebold and the other black box machine companies, but don't hold your breath.)

There are millions of us that know we've been fucked again, but the "liberal media" isn't going to touch this story.

So the real question is, where do we go from here? How do we prevent it from happening again two years from now? And most importantly, is there anything we can do to prevent these barbarians from totally destroying whatever remnants of democracy still exist in this country?

[donachiel]

1. Many of us don't feel that way though.

Since computers and telecommunications are my field, I refuse to give up! We just need to be patient. Remember that Rome was not built in a day.

[Cyrano]

7. pa4kerry, I wish I had your faith, but

if we look at whose hands those machines have been in since election day, do you really think they've left any fingerprints behind?

[wysi]

11. They all do...

... there is no perfect crime, as detectives like to say (though some criminals get away with their crimes of course!). So there must be evidence somewhere.

The problem is getting that evidence to see the light of day.

[donachiel]

25. Exactly!

Somewhere, somehow, somebody screwed up. It just takes time and patience. I know how you feel though. I keep wishing that I would wake up and it was all a bad dream.

[jdj]

2. Four more years? Are you kidding?

Get ready for the long hall of hell, followed shortly thereafter by armageddon, unless we create a public groundswell to ban these machines. It's up to us. they'll have a three-peat in 08 without it, I guarantee you.

[Karenina]

29. It is NOT American citizens' brief

to accept the results of machines that HAVE ALREADY BEEN PROVEN UNRELIABLE. If the results are to be "certified" they must be accurate, and THEIR ACCURACY must be thoroughly investigated.

Please read Dr. Partridge's piece:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/04/11/10_democracy.html

[NJCher]

3. are you a lawyer

I'd like to know the basis for your statement that none of the evidence will hold up in court.

Cher

[Cyrano]

10. NJCher: I'm not a lawyer and I'm not saying that

none of the evidence would hold up in court. What I am saying is that any evidence is long gone, and if any still exists, the Republicans wouldn't let us get anywhere near it. Unfortunately, for right now, they contol all the levers of power.

[WestHoustonDem]

4. That was the prevailing view of Watergate

in November 72. Stranger things have happened.

[Cyrano]

13. During the time of Watergate, the Dems controlled the house and senate.

Do you really believe the Republicans would ever impeach King George?
He could rape a goat on live TV and they'd still tell us what a great leader and man of character he is.

[WestHoustonDem]

15. If the truth comes out and we take back the House in 2006

then we can impeach. But the important thing here is for the truth to come out.

[donachiel]

26. There is power in numbers

If we don't give up and keep pushing them, wouldn't they have to? Just keep making a big stink out of it. Email, call, write, do whatever it takes to make them listen.

Great ideas for what we can do at http://www.verifiedvoting.org

[vinnievin777]

5. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Welcome to the nightmare.

Vinnie Vin
http://www.vinnievin.com

[shance]

6. If this situation was reversed, the Republicans would demand another

election.

Although with that said, this is not an issue of Republican/Democratic parties. This is a need for accurate results in an election.

I wonder if in history, if there has ever been a new election, not even on a federal level. I wonder what Federal law and/or election laws says about this.

[shraby]

9. A new election on paper only with pen/pencil.

[Karenina]

30. And a shitload of observers.

[donachiel]

27. I don't know for sure but what the heck do we have to lose?

I saw on the news tonight that they're talking about it as of Wed. in North Carolina. The laws they said don't specifically spell it out very clearly.

As long as there is hope, hope will lead the way. :)

[Deja Q]

8. We can't prove that it's NOT stolen either.

While the comments made by a pompous diebold exec are circumstantial, the existence of PAPERLESS voting machines made by a BANKING FIRM raises a truckload of suspicion and REASONABLE DOUBT.

An investigation is mandatory, regardless and this shit be dealt with once and for all.

[m berst]

12. why say things like this?

Please read "Do We Still Have a Democracy?" by Ernest Partridge,then get back to us.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/04/11/10_democracy.html




"We are obliged at this time to struggle, with all the Powers with which the Constitution hath furnished us, in Defence of our Rights; to prevent the most valuable of our Liberties from being wrested from us, by the subtle Machinations, and daring Encroachments of wicked Ministers."

- Sam Adams 1771

[Cyrano]

14. m berst, I'm on your side. All I'm stating is that

for the time being, and unless and until the situation changes radically, there's not a damn thing we can do. That's not defeatism. It's reality. Please, please, please, show me a realistic alternative.

[m berst]

22. OK sure, thanks

The only thing - the best thing - we could ever do is still available to us. Word of mouth. If just 10 people started communicating this like their life depended upon it to everyone they know and meet everywhere they go, it would sweep the country in a week.

The barrier is not that we have no power; the barrier is that we THINK we have no power.

We hold ALL the power, we just need the courage to use it. It is already happening, Cyrano, and it is already succeeding. Please join us.

"We are obliged at this time to struggle, with all the Powers with which the Constitution hath furnished us, in Defence of our Rights; to prevent the most valuable of our Liberties from being wrested from us, by the subtle Machinations, and daring Encroachments of wicked Ministers."

"A true patriot would keep the attention of his fellow citizens awake to their grievances, and not allow them to rest till the causes of their just complaints are removed. Our ship is in the hands of pilots who are steering directly under full sail to a rock. The whole crew may see this course to violate our liberties in full view if they look the right way." - Sam Adams 1771

[Rex]

16. All it takes is ONE hard drive not getting LLF

And the jig is up. These people take huge risks, and therefore are extremely dangerous to America.

[TorchTheWitch]

17. GEEEEEEEEZZZZZZZ!!!

While you've been sitting here boohooing down your shirtfront, the rest of us are actually DOING something!

There is a recount in the state senate NY race going on RIGHT NOW the purpose of which was because of MACHINE VOTE TAMPERING! Already the race is flipping for the Dem. This sets a precedent that the machines were fucked with.

Nader has agreed to start a recount in NH to expose vote fraud there and the SOS has approved it.

Cobb is about to get a recount going in Ohio to expose vote fraud.

6 US Reps have formally requested an investigation into the vote disenfranchisement and possible fraud.

Keith Olbermann has been discussing this on his show for days and he's on our side.

Why don't you get your ass into the Presidential Results and Discussion forum and help the rest of us DO something about this instead of whimpering about it?

:mad:

[Cyrano]

18. Dear TorchTheWitch: pardon my whimpering and my

slobbered on my shirt front.

I know about many of the activities that are taking place to try to turn this election around.

Nonetheless, unless and until we can get our hands on factual proof that will hold up in court, we're shoveling shit against the tide. With any luck, we'll win a few small skirmishes, but for the most part, the Huns have stolen this election and we're not going to be able to turn it around.

And, oh yeah. No one wishes I'm wrong more than myself. But aside from signing petitions, contributing to Bev Harris, telling anyone who voted for Bush that they're a screaming asshole, exactly what is it you suggest I should do help change the fucked up reality we find ourselves in?

[NJCher]

19. here's your realistic alternative

a) we have to take the vote fraud through the system

b) if the system works, we win

c) if the system doesn't work, we know where the holes are and where to attack.

One thing you are ignoring is that this government has a system. The repukes have done their level best to game this system but they don't have themselves covered 100%.

Cher

[Cyrano]

20. Cher, I admire your faith in our system.

But after many years of fighting these swine, my cynicism runneth over. Nonetheless, I don't want it to be contagious. Keep up the good fight. I'll be with you, but I still need a little more time to get over November 2nd.

[NJCher]

28. I can understand that

Our system is bigger than bush, as I believe they (meaning bushco) will find out over time.

Cher

[RyomaSakamoto]

21. but just think about 08!

2012, 2016, 2020...

[bigtree]

23. optical ballots are in question also

they have a paper trail. Chads are at issue too, some Ohio counties included.

[n2mark]

24. Fours more years of hell!

Teresa are you here? This sounds like something you would say. Oh, that sounds so good.