Did BFEE deploy tanks at L.A. anti war protest as reported here?

[henslee]

ON EDIT --- I AM CALLING THIS ONE A HOAX UNTIL I CAN FIND ANOTHER NEWS SOURCE OR A GOD DAMN EYEWITNESS STEPS UP.


http://la.indymedia.org/news/2004/11/118865_comment.php#118868

and threaded here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2657818

[htuttle]

1. If you've seen the video, and weren't convinced

What additional confirmation would you find acceptable?

[henslee]

2. do not have video cap. at moment.

[ret5hd]

3. well, there's a picture...

unless you think it's been photoshopped

[henslee]

8. No flames but sure would like a streetsign in that pic or a Tommy's Burger

[DBoon]

16. Is the statue in the back recognizable?

The blurred one? It isn't to this LA native.

[JuniperLea]

17. nothing like that in the area

the most you are likely to see is the KB Home sign on the building across the street to the east or the fence and statue at the veterans cemetary across the street to the south.

[Columbia]

26. That thing looks like a toy

This is what a real tank looks like - much bigger.

[rinsd]

31. It looks like a Stryker....

http://www.army.mil/features/stryker/default.htm



On Edit: Nevevermind, its way too low to be a Stryker. Look at the people they seem to be standing next to it like it was a regular car. The person in the turrent would be much farther above their heads. Even the Bradley vehicle seems to be too high for this.

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/bradley/



This is weird...do we have a tank that short with a small cannon?

[Columbia]

32. You know what it really looks like

That guy from the video game Halo

[rinsd]

34. LOL....you're killing me here.

I just randomly went through some foreign tanks and nothing seems to have the 25mm(?) style cannon with that low a frame. The only thing close is the Bradley. But the body styling seems to different from the Bradley. Shit...maybe it IS the guy from Halo

[Dufaeth]

33. X

edit: after looking at more pics, I see there are more variants, and I agree it looks like a stryker.

[rinsd]

37. It does but it doesn't.....

The armor slope and cannon style seem right but the Stryker in any configuration seems to be too tall. This says it is 104 inches high. Also I not sure if its a tracked or wheeled vehicle.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/iav-icv.htm



Look how much taller it is than this soldier.

Maybe its one of the older LAV models. These seem to be a little shorter

[Dufaeth]

41. The panel on the left of the LAV 25 seems to match

that was one of the things I was unsure of in relation to the Stryker.

[Hubert Flottz]

53. I think they just use those before the election!

Least that's how democracy is workin' in Iraq!

Does Diebold make those too?

[pschoeb]

40. Looks like a LAV-25 Light Armored Vehicle

Their main body is about as tall as an average height male.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/lav-25.htm


Here's a different gun configuration but you can see height of main body

[rinsd]

44. Thanks...

I couldn't find any real decent pics of LAVs.

It does look like it could be the LAV-25 with a 25mm cannon configuration(that appears in your first pic). The height and paneling seem to be similar to the original pic.

[American Tragedy]

58. It's possible

You could blend together two separate films into the same series of frames. It could be done with photoshop, although it's not designed for video editing.

[JuniperLea]

4. i can see the fed building from my office window

wouldn't you know yesterday was the day i decided to leave early!

sorry i missed this. i saw the protestors gathering, but not the grand finale by the bushjugend.

[efhmc]

24. Did any of your fellow emplyees see this from the building vantage

point? I am not in your part of the country but I am so going to the next demonstration and taking others with me here in Texas!

[JuniperLea]

46. there are only two guys on that side of the building...

and they are repugs... i won't ask them.

the good news is, the big boss is one of us:)

[in_cog_ni_to]

5. Here's a link.

Please watch the video. Yes, there were tanks at the protest. :(

http://la.indymedia.org/news/2004/11/118865_comment.php#118868

[Kipepeo]

50. LA A.N.S.W.E.R. was at the protest

Wish I had known about it. That's only a few miles from me.

Here's the info for LA Answer: http://www.answerla.org/

You would think the media would be interested in this story or in talking to people who were there.

I guess Scott Peterson is more important.

[rkc3]

6. I'd like to be the first to get run over by a tank.

Christ, what the fuck is this country coming to? Did we suspend the Constitution? Will bush use this approach to declare martial law in America in 2008 to keep his presidency?

[efhmc]

7. Wasn't that yesterday.?How in the world can that not be on the news if

it really happened. The way people take their own video cameras to all evewnts, some news agency would want that scoop, even a local station. I want to hear/see more.

[henslee]

11. That's what I cannot believe. How can this not be on the news. How can

this thing not be kicked to death. I don't even remeber tanks during the riots. Who the fuck authorized this? I must see an CA link. This is sick. Tienemaen Square redux.

[htuttle]

12. There were tanks in Miami last year at the FTAA protests

Some sort of armored, tracked vehicle with a big assed gun in the front. Could have been a Stryker or something like that. Close enough to a tank, though.

This vehicle in the new LA video looks a lot more like a tank, but might be some sort of APC.

[G_j]

38. a few pics

from Miami





didn't see this on the news either......

[Occulus]

67. True, but those are police. It appears to be military in the vid. nt

[G_j]

71. still, the lines have been blurred

I believe there has been a certain military 'presence' behind the scenes at most major demonstrations since the Seattle WTO protests, maybe before that.

[skylarmae]

9. Kent State - you guys better realize the repukes know no bounds

they do what the hell they want whenever they want. and a country full of lemmings lets them do it.

[puddycat]

27. Kent State is a good example of how our troops will be used against us

That is why we have to convince our young people not to join the Armed Services at this time--because they (1) should not die for * and (2) they should not kill for * and (3) they will used against their own people. And how many of those troops will be brave enough to refuse when given the order to mow us down when we march against this fascist tide of Dominionists? The few who do will be summarily killed by their own commanders.

For God's sakes, just recently a young innocent woman was murdered by the Police in Boston for merely being near a drunken group of Baseball revelers.

[Dufaeth]

42. I just found out my dad investigated Kent State

He was just out of law school and worked for a law firm on the civil case.

[Dufaeth]

10. What was the purpose?

Intimidation? I don't get it. They just park there. Really weird.

[rodeodance]

30. I just watch the Quicktime video-someone send to your Senators

and LA times (preferably a CA citizen) and ask what the hell is going on and who has the authority to call in the nat .guard for a protest!!

This mentality is a direct effect of Asscroft/BushCo policies!!

[bif]

13. Just a tad like 1930s Germany

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Droopy]

18. Welcome to DU, BlueWolff

Thanks for the links. :toast:

[Q]

15. On the video you can hear someone yell:

"I thought this was America...why the tanks?" (Paraphased)

- My personal opinion? We're going to be seeing a lot more tanks...especially as we get closer to the coronation of George II*.

[canadianbeaver]

19. Your America is slowly being taken from you!

This is so unreal....this kind of actions in the USA is what I used to read about in my history books...and they did say that history has a way of repeating itself..just never thought I would be viewing it with my own eyes....Can't explain the senses I am feeling right now.. can't believe it..I wish for people to not accept what the government is doing..the protests are just beginning and I am sorry to say that the deaths will follow... the US is hanging by a thread and the people that kept that BOZO in office will be hit with the reality of what they have unleashed...the whole world is watching and what is happing in the US puts all on alert....HIGH ALERT!!

This is just the beginning...what will the end look like.
:nuke:

[henslee]

21. Grea,... the upbeat cheery Canuck, raises our spirits!!! Welcome.

[canadianbeaver]

23. I am usually a very upbeat person...really I am

but it is hard to see this going on next door...I don't envy what needs to be done to fix what is going on in the US..there will be lots of work to do...I wish I could be part of the new movement to take back your country from the Lies/Hate/Fear God Administration that stole their office..but my geography birth plays a part in that...I would be standing next to you fighting for your civil rights that are slowly being taken away..and I would bleed for those rights...I Love the Earth and want it to be here for all future generations..just wish we didn't have to go through HELL to get there.

:loveya: I love the DU..you all are great people...and even the ones that voice negative thoughts..we all have em.. Take Care Eh!

[SmokingJacket]

47. It's hard not feeling paranoid...

my sense is that we're in a crazy, extreme time... but the newspaper and TV report that the world is the same as ever, same old, good old USA... today my neighbors are out there raking their yards, same as ever. There's enormous pressure to just throw in the towel and drink the damn kool aid.

Knowing that people like you, who have a little distance and perhaps perspective, see what I see is reassuring. Maybe I'm not crazy.

Maybe this country is.

[canadianbeaver]

52. Please don't drink their Koolaid

I think things will stay crazy..untill the average Joe says "NO"...it really does amaze me that people believe the lies...it does seem to be a little like Brainwashing...BUSHCO STYLE....if they tell you enough times that the Sky is Red then you start to believe them..they count on it....
I do carry hope in my heart...I can't seem to write or reply without this LUMP in my chest..I think LOVE should rule all!! Without it we become SHEEP led by the wrong Shepard...down the wrong path...tolerance and acceptance should be the words of the YEAR.

Peace Out!!

:tinfoilhat: - I do believe conspiracies do happen..it is possible

[Poll_Blind]

20. Sunovabitch! Tanks?! They going to gun the unruly down?

Oh, it's only a matter of time before someone gets rolled over or shot. Soldiers are trained to agressively seek out an kill targets- this is an insane solution to problems in our own streets.

PB

[Threedifferentones]

22. That video is confusing...

it seems real, the people mention the tank in the video, I heard at least one shout "Block the tanks!" or something like that...yet the tanks did not do anything, they just sat there and let the people scream at them. Why were they deployed I can't figure it out.

[efhmc]

25. Intimidation. PUT this on world wide news, somebody. Where is the

Guardian, since no news source here seems to able to do its job of reporting the news.

[LeftHander]

36. DUH! to prevent the scene form escalating into a riot.

That is why.

[htuttle]

39. More probably to try to provoke a riot

If there's one thing at least our own local cops have learned here in Madison, WI, it's that a display of military/police hardware tends to provoke militant reactions, not reduce them.

Running a tank down the street is a very provocative action, almost begging for somebody to throw something at it. It provides a too-tempting target for everyone's anger to center on.

[TXStacy]

28. have a hard time believing this...

You'd think with all of the thousands of members of DU there'd be one of us in LA that would have either first or second hand knowledge of this if it really happened. Even with the biased media, surely one of the news outlets would have picked this up. I can't imagine 2 tanks rolling down the street would escape notice.

[LeftHander]

35. This really happened....

I saw the video...

Believe it.

[JohnyCanuck]

29. A few relevant links to consider

All articles by Dr. Norman Livergood, a former department head at the US Army War College.

Police State USA

Military Dictatorship USA

The Necessity for Enlightened Thinking

From the Necessity for Enlightened Thinking:

In a democracy such as ours in America, it's the responsibility of citizens to inform themselves and to struggle against any encroachment of constitutional liberties. If some people are too unintelligent or morally deficient to see the tyrannous acts of the Bush administration, if some people are too cowardly to stand against those acts, it's still your individual responsibility as an American citizen to uphold the principles of democracy on which this nation is founded.

One of the most effective ways of feeling this is to view the 1961 Academy Award-winning film, "Judgment at Nuremberg," and consider how you could, in the future, be considered as one of three classes of war criminals depicted in the film:

* Nazi villains such as Goering (though not depicted in this movie, the Nuremberg tribunals included Goering's trial and conviction as a war criminal)

* Ordinary criminals such as the German judges who took advantage of the Nazi tyranny to feather their own nests

* Germans who prided themselves on upholding the nation's principles, such as Emil Janning, former German secretary of justice (portrayed in the movie by Burt Lancaster) and the widow of a convicted German general executed for ordering the murder of American POWs (portrayed by Marlene Dietrich). These kinds of people were shocked when they found that the world held them responsible for what had happened in Nazi Germany.

Abby Mann's brilliant screenplay "Judgment at Nuremberg" drives home several crucial points that we cannot afford to overlook:

We're responsible for being aware of of what's going on in our society; we can't plead ignorance. In the movie, the defense attorney argued strenuously that all those who supported or tolerated Nazis were guilty, not just those individuals then being tried.

[bvar22]

43. Definitely NOT a photoshop.

Watch the video. It will end ALL DOUBTS.

It was definitely an AMERICAN crowd shouting "Bring the Troops Home NOW!" and carrying protest signs in English. The crowd is SMALL...maybe 50-60 people, and a couple of people actually STOOD IN FRONT OF THE VEHICLES a la Tiananmen Square before being pushed to the curb by uniformed policemen.

The vehicles are in camo paint, and appear to be regular military, maybe NG. I couldn't immediately identify the markings. I believe they were wheeled, not tracked, but the video doesn't clearly show that part. I'm going mostly by the sound (no obvious clanking.)

Foreshadow of things to come.
I'll be attending the regular Wednesday Anti War-on-the-Iraqi People this PM in Minneapolis.

[Liberal Mommy]

48. I emailed the protest group

I haven't heard back from anyone yet. Here is a link to their website. I also have screenshots of the video on my webpage for those of you at work.

[maveric]

45. 1968 Czechoslovakia all over again.

I can only imagine what would be deployed down here in San Diego during an anti-war protest.
There are some serious armaments down here.

[donhakman]

49. No need to imagine...

The means for crowd control today includes sonic and electtromagnetic weapons mounted on light armored vehicles.

Tanks are strictly old school.

[m berst]

51. "Repukes"

Why are we still labeling the adminstration with "repukes" and "rethuglicans" and thereby alientaing and demonizing half of the population, many of who will be joining us to fight tyranny?

Why not "fascists?"

or...

Dominionists
Totalitarians
Usurpers
Tyrants
Dictators

Those are the proper words IMHO.

Can we put the fight to save our country above the partisan fight?

The people running the country are wolves in sheep's clothing. Republican and Christian are just labels they are using to seize power and mislead and fool half of the population. Many of those people are slow to see the danger, but they are starting to now and they are going to be very angry and motivated soon. We are never going to eliminate conservative and Christian citizens from society. Meanwhile can we leave the door open to those who disagree with us politically but will fight with us to preserve the Constitution and protect our liberty?

[Hubert Flottz]

56. You make PERFECT sense!

Divison it the outlaw crew's strongest weapon!

[RivetJoint]

54. The quick answer is NO. The Vehicles in the pictures

are not tanks.

[jdots]

55. I am on this ..i live in L.A.

and have been at alot of demonstrations at the Westwood Federal Building,the demonstraiters are there weekly here is a partial list of people who have been arrested there at least once
Ed Asner,Martin Sheen need i say more ?.
The answer to " why wouldn't the media show up ? "
YOU ALL KNOW DAMN WELL WHY THEY DON'T SHOW UP,or show up roll tape and the dork at h,q, doesn't go with it.The protesters at the ffederal building get no press because it is a common sight & the crowd is very subdued and peacefull.

[henslee]

57. in short... no tanks.

[Kipepeo]

59. Have you seen the video?

What do you think they are exactly?

[henslee]

60. NO TANKS IN L.A. Tanks in video, yeah. No news source

has confirmed this.

[Kipepeo]

61. I notice you edited out the "knucklehead"

Thanks for your compassion. :eyes:

I don't see anything in the video that makes me think it's a fake. I am not surprised the news didn't cover it. I've been to protests at the Federal Building before and never see it on the news when I get home.

I don't doubt that it will be picked up, now that people are emailing the media with the video.

I'm just curious as to why you're so aggressively purporting that it's a hoax.

[Liberal Mommy]

62. Just talked to Frank at ANSWER

He did confirm the presence of the "tanks" at the protest. He didn't seem to feel like it was that big of a deal. I guess it bothers me more than him? Maybe they are used to this.

[DELUSIONAL]

68. Amazing how the young-uns tend to forget the recent past - KENT STATE

and Berkeley Free Speech Movement -- plus RayGun's efforts to take down the student Vietnam anti-war movement.

The government of bushie is very willing to murder unarmed civilians -- this is very serious.

Damn I feel like I'm hundreds of years old -- and I'm not that old -- but I do remember KENT STATE -- as clearly as I remember everything that happened the day JFK was assassinated.

[henslee]

64. This is why.... I do not want DU being to perceived as a home for

unsubstantiated sensationalism, especially when so many new eyeballs are here due to the election. If I sound aggressive its because that post has been popping up for the last 24 hours and has been removed from LBN at least once. I want this place to be taken seriously, not dismissed by intelligent progressives.

[deutsey]

66. There have been a few protests were protesters were peppersprayed or

shot with pellets, and these incidents were not reported in mainstream media that I saw.

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

63. LAPD has had tanks since the late 80s

The CRASH unit acquired them during crack fear fever. There was a famous incident where they knocked down the wall of a drug house. They found two women and a child eating ice cream and a small bag of pot in the kitchen drawer.

Source: Mike Davis, either City of Quartz or Ecology of Fear (fuck if I can keep a copy of either of those books in my house with all the scroungers!)

[Taverner]

65. Yes, but LAPD tanks are black

[Q]

69. Look...for all intents and purposes it's a f**king 'tank'....

...and it's definitely military. Yet...some here are trying to downplay it as if it's nothing out of place. Some of you need to read a bit of history and US law to understand why it's important to keep the military out of civilian law enforcement.

- These 'tanks' were used for intimidation tactics...and to get the people used to seeing these vehicles on the streets.

[ElementaryPenguin]

70. I live in LA! That IS Westwood - in front of the Federal Building

Those ARE army tanks - there's an Army Rotc building just a few blocks down the street on Wilshire. Last year I was at an anti-war rally and some soldiers pointed machine guns right at me - and I was doing nothing to provoke them. I just ignored them - but I thought, man this could make Kent State look like nothing!

[ElementaryPenguin]

72. THE TANKS ARE BACK RIGHT NOW!!!!!

Just showed a fellow employee this video - and he just came back from lunch and said he just SAW TWO BIG TANKS ON OLYMPIC BLVD AT 2:15 PM!!!!!

[ElementaryPenguin]

73. I am not kidding! There are tanks on Olympic Blvd. in Los Angeles

RIGHT NOW!! The crackdown has begun!

[doni_georgia]

75. Is there a protest going on now? Is any local media covering this?

I only found two sites with info on the tanks in LA last night. Where is the news media on this?????

[ElementaryPenguin]

74. THESE ARE MILITARY TANKS - U.S. MARINES ON OLYMPIC BLVD.!

Where they have never - ever been!

[slowroll]

76. OK

First of all, hi guys, this is my first post here. Long time lurker, and I just wanted to put in my 2 cents on this story. It really whacked me out when I first started reading it, and immediately thereafter I couldn't get on to DU at all-I thought the crackdown had come!

But I think this might be blown way out of proportion. Penguin, is there any kind of Marine Corps b-day event in your neck of the woods today?

Reasons I ask are these-

Those vehicles are LAVs, operated exclusively by the Marines.

Nearest Marine unit that would have them is 100 miles away at Camp Pendleton. (I think, correct me if I'm wrong)

LAPD has its own armored vehicles, old Cadillac-Gage V-100s. These aren't it.

The Army National Guard has units closer in that have armored vehicles.

From what I understand, this is a small, regular protest.

Today is the USMCs birthday, an event which is usually quite a to-do. It would not be at all out of the ordinary to have a couple of LAVs show up for some kind of ceremony/display.

[ElementaryPenguin]

77. No, I know people that were at last night's protest. Tanks took an active

roll in trying to disperse the crowd. Why they are rolling along Olympic this afternoon - I haven't a clue! I've lived here 25 years and have never seen one here before. You're right though - they are U.S. Marines.

:shrug:

[slowroll]

78. wow

first I heard of them actively trying to disperse the crowd. From the vid it looks like they're just pretty much sitting there.

[ElementaryPenguin]

79. What's almost as incredible is that it isn't even mentioned in LA Times

Or the local TV news! It's just wall to wall Scott Peterson!! Not even a "oh, and by the way folks, the U.S. Marines are now patroling the streets of Beverly Hills!"

WE HAVE NO LEGITIMATE MEDIA LEFT IN THIS COUNTRY!

:argh:
:mad:

[slowroll]

80. what kind of "active roll"

did these guys take in dispersing the crowd? I don't see anything in the Indymedia account about it.

I'm finding it very hard to believe somebody deployed Marine infantry in LA for no discernible reason or coverage.

[ElementaryPenguin]

81. Are you insinuating that a Marine tank infantry simply coincidentally

Appeared in the midst of nightime mass demonstration?? My friends said they simply made it very clear that the tanks were there not in any friendly capacity (as crossing guards or something) but as a threatening force - ready to act if the crowd got out of hand or refused to disperse.

[slowroll]

84. Well, I find the other scenario more implausible

If it was a huge demonstration I might see a motive to deploy them, not a justification by any stretch, but a motive. But it didn't look like there were more than 40-50 people there, and hardly any cops.

It seems a little odd that these happen to be Marine vehicles on the eve of the Marine's 229th birthday. I would say that either-

1. The LAVs were being driven to a static display and just happened into the demonstration.

2. The LAVs were involved in a vehicle movement for one reason or another and the guys in the vehicle decided to have a little "fun" with the protestors.

3. The LAVs were privately owned, either by individuals or by a rental company. There's probably more privately owned armored vehicles in the LA area than anywhere in the country-movie prop rentals. Private ownership could explain a lot of things, from Freepers getting their jollies by scaring protestors to somebody trying to spark a news story.

Here's a way we might find out-if you're in the area, call the LAPD non-emergency number and ask them why those LAVs were out there last night and why they're there today.

[JackieO]

82. Of course it's a hoax

Now, back to Scott Peterson...

[ElementaryPenguin]

83. Wondering if the sheeple will even react to air strikes in U.S. neighborho

They'll probably have to consult the local news to realize they're manicured backyard lawn is being bombed!

Sheesh!

:puke:

[mountebank]

85. Wish I'd gone to that protest now....

I heard about it yesterday.

This is really fucked up. Do we have confirmation on what type of vehicle this is - police or military? I just e-mailed the L.A. Times news desk with a "WTF" style of e-mail.

Whether they are "technically" tanks or not - if those were military vehicles it is really disturbing.

[Beaverhausen]

86. the tanks came up from Camp Pendleton for a parade today and got lost

http://la.indymedia.org/news/2004/11/118865_comment.php#118868

scroll down for this comment:


Follow up on 2 USMC Striker armored vehicles at Westwood Federal
Building

I wasn't there at the Tuesday night demonstration in Westwood, but I
did do some follow-up investigation this morning about the two armored
vehicles.

Turns out the West Los Angeles Veterans Administration was having a
Veterans Day parade and celebration this morning (Wednesday). I drove
over and walked in to the WLA VA to look around at 10:50am.

Lots of marching middle school ROTC "cadets" (including
11-to-14-year-old boys and girls from Mt. Vernon Middle School all in
US Army uniform, some shouldering parade "rifles") and a high school
band and antique cars filled with VAFW members. And two USMC Striker
armored vehicles complete with 6 or 7 Marines in fatigues and body
armor giving junior high ROTC kids and adults tours of the vehicles.

I talked to one Marine with one of the "Striker" vehicles. He told me
they had driven the vehicles up from Camp Pendleton the night before
(Tuesday) on the freeway. Getting off the 405 Freeway going north, they
would have passed Wilshire and Veteran where ANSWER had called a rally
to protest the attack on Fallujah in Iraq.

I asked him if he was "rolling around Westwood" Tuesday night. He said,
"Yeah, and we drove past that anti-war demonstration. We was lost.
We're not from L.A. We didn't know where this place (WLA VA) was. We
were trying to find it."

"Did you drive around the block twice?" I asked.

"Yeah, we did. We stopped to ask them (the protestors) directions, but
they weren't very nice."

There was more conversation, but that was the gist of it from the
Marine side concerning the armored vehicles. For what it's worth.

I've also been receiving emails from friends who were at Tuesday
evening's Westwood demostration. They report that the LAPD officers
said they had no idea why the two armored vehicles had appeared and
then disappeared.

[slowroll]

87. yeah, that's what I figured n/t

m