Wesley Clark was really good at promoting Democratic values and morals

[Quixote1818]

and attacking Republican values. Why didn't Kerry follow Clark's lead?

Before you rip me please read my whole post as I am trying to make a point for next time.


I still think if Clark could win Oklahoma he could have won anywhere in a National Election! He has that Norman Rockwell, all American, strong Military appeal that small town middle America loves. He really was the perfect candidate to run against Bush. I know you all are going to rip me for bringing this up again but it's true! Clark won the rural vote over Kerry in EVERY state. And with Terrorism and Iraq being two of the main issues Clark was simply a perfect fit. Why? Not because he was more Conservative but because he talked about VALUES!!!

I love Kerry and I know this does us little good at this point but I think we should give Clark credit because he did seem to have the right kind of Campaign going to win in a National Election. He should be commended for that.

I also have a suggestion. We should move the second state in the Democratic Primary's from New Hampshire to a very conservative state like Oklahoma or Utah and see who has the best cross over appeal to Republican voters. The first state should be a very liberal state and the second should be a very Conservative state. That way no one gets too much momentum right off the bat. And remember! Wesley Clark was no Republican, he was to the left of Kerry and Edwards if you looked at his policies.

[Cocoa]

1. Clark is too corporate

I like him, but he is not the type of dem we need. We need a populist type, not a corporate type.

I think the way we need to go is to tap into red-state mistrust of corporations. Who's responsible for smut on TV? Corporations, worst of all Fox.

[dogman]

12. 30+ years of service to the people is hardly corporate.

We have to have leadership. We can't just pick someone that has not shown the ability to lead.

[bettys boy]

15. "Too corporate?"

I was looking for a candidate that could begin to turn back the tide that washed over us in 1994, a tide that's only gaining strength. Clark's appeal to me was the potential to reframe liberal, communitarian values as apple pie American values, as we know they are.

One of the fundamental ideals of military service is that in service to each other we find material well-being AND sustenance for our own souls. In embracing something larger than ourselves - a mission, the well-being of a unit, the strength of the nation, the strength of the global small-D democratic community - we become better off, materially and spiritually. We have allowed the religious wing of the GOP to co-opt this message.

Clark's communitarian thinking was the farthest thing from corporate. I saved his entire platform and will be happy to provide it to anyone who asks. Progressives should be quite pleased with it.

Sadly, Clark wasn't quite ready for the rough-and-tumble of the nomination process, and his getting in so late compounded the problem.

[HootieMcBoob]

26. Clark was great at that

Kerry was my choice before Clark entered the race but I quickly switched to Clark as soon as he entered the primaries. I have a ton of respect for John Kerry and for everything he's done in his life but I think we missed a golden opportunity by not nominating Wes Clark. Hopefully he'll still be involved, and we have the opportunity once more.

[robbedvoter]

19. Yup The one candidate who wasn't a rich guy (except DK) is corporate

I now realize, the left is as dumb as the right. Damn, damn , damn.
The media picked our candidate/ticket - enabled by idiocies like this one.
That being said, we still won, they still stole it - thinking candidates before having elections is also dumb.

[Cocoa]

27. Wes Clark is an investment banker

of all the primary candidates, imo, Clark was the one with the closest ties to corporate America.

Instead of namecalling, how about disputing this claim of mine, I'm open to it if you can do it.

[Cocoa]

28. Clark's net worth: $3,000,000

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/clark/articles/2003/12/14/clarks_income_soared_after_army_career/

2002 income: $1,600,000.

In my book, that's a rich guy, one of the richest of the candidates.

If not, who's richer? Kerry, Dean, maybe Lieberman, maybe Graham.

The candidates who fit into the "not a rich guy" category would be Kucinich, Gephardt, Braun, Sharpton. Clark for sure is NOT in that group.

[knight_of_the_star]

39. So what if he was an investment banker?

How long was he making very little when he could have been making that much for years? He wasn't a CEO like Bush or Cheney.

[Cocoa]

47. I was responding to post #19

I was demonstrating that it was hardly an "idiocy" to claim that Clark was among the candidates with strong ties to corporations.

[phylla]

41. This is a great example of what our Military gained by having Wes

serve for so many years.

He is so scary smart that he could have made a great living in the private sector all of those years.

Until he left the service, I don't that that he cracked $130,000 a year. And that was a 37year four star who was Supreme Allied Commander of NATO Europe and who had the responsibility of taking this country to war.

His income increased immediately upon leaving partly because he put his experiences in books. And he was in great demand as a lecturer and as a commentator on CNN regarding the impending war. (he also was fired because he did not agree with the Bush meme.)

Wes has made a good deal of money in the last 4 years but is, in a way, delayed compensation for the many years of living on less that $50k and moving constantly to serve our country.

And just think about what he has personally given up in the last few months of giving his time to support Kerry.

I hope that Wes makes a TON of money....(what do most CEO's make?how many multiple millions/year?)

He is one of the good guys. He is one of us. I trust him completely. He has been right about nearly everything. He has great instincts and an ability to see the big picture. I am sure that this ability serves him well in the private sector,
But I sure would like.......
To attend his Inauguration Jan 20,2009...my b-day BTW.

I am a Clarkie for life!

[AP]

32. The media did not pick Kerry. They ignored Kerry. Kerry won on the ground

and not in the media.

[Donna Zen]

38. Sorry you missed Clark

[RandomUser]

48. Do you consider not being able to afford McDonald's to be "too corporate"?

Go watch the "American Son" video, if you can still find a copy of it. I think it's archived somewhere online by some Clarkies.

Pay special attention to the parts where Clark's cousin talked about how they grew up poor. Also, listen to the part where Clark's son recounts that going out to dinner at McDonald's was considered a luxury while growing up, because Wes and Gert couldn't afford it often on a low paying soldier's salary.

[dxdem]

2. I liked Clark a lot...

he was tied for first for my vote in the primaries. Did anyone see him on Real Time with Bill Maher the other night?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. I hope Wes Clark remains a voice to be heard

I'd hate to see him slide into oblivion. Is there any organization he has started or affiliated with that will keep his message out there? Many in AR, even ardent Dems, still wish he'd been the nominee.

I agree about an early primary in a Southern state. I think it is also a good idea to go back to the longer primary season, where candidates are given more of a chance. That way the Repukes can't hone their strategy for destroying the nominee as quickly-they won't be sure who will win.

[Lefta Dissenter]

5. see here

http://www.wespac2004.com/#home :hi:

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

8. Great!

Added to my favorites list!

[Quixote1818]

6. I agree with going back to the longer primary season!

We ended up with a "North Eastern Liberal" (not that that is a problem with me) but when you start out having primary's in two Blue states you are looking for trouble especially when the primary season was so short not giving someone like Clark a chance to get back into the game. Also Edwards and Clark were killing one another because they were so much alike being from the south and that allowed Kerry to come out ahead even though head to head he might have lost to either Edwards or Clark.

[Lefta Dissenter]

4. That's an interesting suggestion

about the primaries. What would it take to get the DNC to take a serious look at the structure of the entire primary system?

and, of course, since it's a Clark thread, I have to add one of these: :loveya:

[Crunchy Frog]

10. Right now the DNC

sees itself in the role of kingmaker. Until they become really willing to let the voters choose, they are not going to look into seriously changing the primaries.

[Eurobabe]

36. I wrote and told the DNC last Weds. that I will no longer

send money to them unless they change the primary structure: No more candidates chosen by Iowa that become rubber stamped by New Hampshire.

They need to go to a regional set-up or a mass primary, but not sure how this would be possible?

[H2O Man]

7. I think that the party

did not make full use of all of our weapons .... er, tools. You mention one good example. Much of Clark's strength was in the powerful symbols that he represented, and that represented him. We can get a giggle out of the moron calling Kerry "the lib-rall center from Mass-a-chew-sits" but a number of voters believed the symbol.

[Crunchy Frog]

9. You won't get any ripping from me.

That was one of the things that really stood out for me as I watched him and was one of the things that led me to believe he would be the strongest candidate.

I haven't changed my mind on that.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

11. I loved Clark because he was an intellectual - not for his "populism"

Maybe I'm ignorant, but I don't know what "populism" means in real world terms. That "Norman Rockwell, all American" appeal is something that completely escapes me. What does it mean in the real world and real issues? Frankly I think it's a term that implies more slick American marketing and facade at work. What is a "southern good ole boy" who talks values? I liked Clark because he was probably THE superior intellect in the 2004 campaign, on either side. And I was one of Clark's big backers, joining the Draft Clark movement in May, 2003 and maxing out with a $2000 donation to his candidacy and also contributing after that to WesPac.

I grew up in the South and spent many years in Arkansas where my father's entire family still lives. I have almost nothing to say to that side of my family now. I'm absolutely repulsed by their way of thinking on virtually every issue. The Red States contribute petroleum and agriculture to the United States, but the Blue States contribute most of the creativity and intellectual power. Most of the Nobel Prizes awarded to U.S. citizens have gone to institutions in Blue States. Most of the government money is coming from Blue States and going to Red States. It's precisely the ego of the southern male and close-mindedness around which I grew up that I want to have nothing to do with. Give me a clear thinking, unprejudiced, self-effacing genious like Wesley Clark with one of the most brilliant minds ever, someone who reads Pablo Neruda and European philosophers. I liked Wesley Clark because he didn't represent what I hate in the south.

[sadiesworld]

25. Yikes.

Wes has widespread appeal. :scared:

[Bucky]

13. I am a Clarkie. A total Clarkie. A Clark groupie. Were it not for Gert...

I would totally do General Wesley Clark.
If we're smart, we'll nominate him yet.

[robbedvoter]

14. Ha!Ha! Your pic is killing me!

Clark was scaring them most. I'd love him as candidate. But in a real election - mo more mocks.

[Eurobabe]

23. LOL!!! I love your icon

is that jwesus?

[abburdlen]

16. The best part was

when he talked about our democratic values they were American values.

[RandomUser]

17. "True Grits" tour

Towards the end of his campaign, Clark had a "True Grits" tour in the south, talking about moral values and family values. Guess he was ahead of the curve again.

Let's see..."New American Patriotism" at the beginning and "True Grits" tour at the end. National Security and then Moral Values. Exactly what the exit polls said people cared about. Sigh.

I guess the fact that Clark scored highest at predicting future trends at West Point actually means something.

[robbedvoter]

21. His 100 years vision also scared people

I even know a Clarkie - she was old - and she was happy when he trimmed it down to 20 years.

[knight_of_the_star]

40. People I've talked to said that was a good idea

People were shocked but pleased that a guy was running saying, "I give a shit about the impact of what I do!"

[RandomUser]

49. I actually liked his 100 years vision

I believe his analysis of the three tiers of objectives and crises is correct.

[Kahuna]

18. Well, as usual the Democratic power structure didn't want a winner..

They just wanted to root for their own guy, even if he didn't have a snowballs chance. Barney Frank and Byron Dorgan told Al Gore not to run because they wanted Kerry to run. Tom Vilsack telegraphed to Clark that he would get no support in Iowa because he wanted kerry or Dean to win.

If these guys had been thinking about what was best for the country they wouldn't have been behaving like high school cliques.

Al Gore would have had the best chance to unseat *, given the way that things turned out. Followed by Wesley Clark. But of course the other candidates had to gang up on Clark, because they were jealous and scared shitless.

[robbedvoter]

20. "Didn't pay his dues" - code for he wasn't beholden to anyone

Dems, no more than GOP could allow someone with no strings attached at the helm. he was attacking PNAC, exposed preemption, advocated no taxes for families up to 50,000 a year, confronted Karl Rove directly, proclaimed himseld a liberal - so they all snuffed his voice. Many here helped.
But that's irrelevant, as it was stolen anyway.

[knight_of_the_star]

42. If Gore had started campaigning

Shortly after he lost and had not completely rolled over but disputed the Court in deciding the outcome, Bush wouldn't have stood a chance. Aside from that, Clark would have knocked Bush down hard and he wouldn't have been able to get back up along with throwing the GOP for a hard loop and making them look bad.

[Eurobabe]

22. we tried to tell the non-believers

ironic that it should come back to bite us in the ass. I LOVE Wes Clark, but let's hope if he does run again, there is more organization in his campaign. It was a disorganized nightmare of epic proportion! But then again reading the Newsweek expose into the Kerry campaign I start to think the lack of organization and decision-making processes in ALL campaigns are like that -- or is it just the Democrats? Curious.

Methinks the disorganization factor is part of what is stymies the Dems.
Makes me want to become a mole and see how the other side works...

[robbedvoter]

24. Kerry's was also disorganized (read Newsweek) He still won.

The media picked the disorganized campaign of their choice.
I supposed W's campaign was perfect, non?

[Ilsa]

29. I campaigned for Clark from home for the NH primary and

Super Tuesday. I think he would have been the nominee if he had started sooner and gotten in some "practice" campaigning earlier.

[HoosierClarkie]

30. Kerry needed to say this...

"Today I want to talk to you about some of those values, and how, over the past three years, our President has abandoned them.

First is patriotism. When you're President of the United States, that means, first and foremost, protecting this country and all its citizens - at home and abroad. To do that, we need the strongest armed forces in the world. But we also need to commit ourselves to using force only as a last resort, after we've exhausted all other options. "

more of this speech...
http://clark04.com/speeches/039/


imho

[AP]

31. People who liked Clark were deeply moved by him. Unfortunately, there were

not enough people who were deeply moved by him.

I will grant that Clark got some pretty shitty treatment by the media when he joined the race. The media wanted him to join so badly for a couple weeks than dumped on him when he did join.

But they also dumped heavily on Kerry in October and November. Kerry recovered to win. Clark went down. (Actually, Clark was closing on Dean as the favorite throughout December, but when people went to the polls they decided that Kerry was what they wanted.)

So, I'm not so sure how great Clark was at doing all those things you say he did well.

[knight_of_the_star]

43. Part of that was a mistake of his

Namely, not running in Iowa. If he did, he probably would have trounced Kerry and taken the nomination.

[AP]

44. I think Kerry's ground operation was formidable. It beat Dean and it would

have beaten Clark too. Clark's campaign was very similar to, but the antithesis of Dean's. They were appealing in similar ways to similarly motivated voters. Kerry dealt with Dean and he would have dealt with Clark in the same way in Iowa.

That's just my opinion.

[IrateCitizen]

33. I've come to agree with this -- but he was also a bad "politician"

Wes Clark understood what needed to be at the center of any political campaign -- VALUES. Everything that a campaign stands for has to be able to be easily summed up in no more than 5 central values that people who don't really follow politics can instantly identify, and identify with.

Unfortunately, Wes Clark was also woefully inexperienced when it came to the political scene. This inexperience was what ultimately torpedoed his bid, IMHO.

I'd like to see Wes Clark stay involved and engaged over the next several years. I'd like to see him set himself up for another run in the future, or perhaps a different office to start out. I think he understands a lot about message, and some honing on the "politician" side could really make him into a formidable force for OUR side.

[HoosierClarkie]

35. I agree.

He made some mistakes that a career politician could have recovered from.

[Kong]

34. It Was Clark's Limited Voice That Killed Him

Go back and listen to his speachs in his Primary run. He had one subject and one subject only - the war. He was a very narrow candidate who will grow between now and 2006. If he does he will be an ideal candidate, certainly better than anyone else out there.

After all - who do we have for 2008?

[HootieMcBoob]

37. you should read this speech

it's far from one subject. http://clark04.com/speeches/039

[robbedvoter]

45. His first speech - in NYC - Job Security. next I saw - community service

Then there was a memorable one I saw on C-Span on Tax reform (notaxes for families with kids under 50,000 - karl Rove, no need to read my lips, I am saying it"
My favorite one - that I witnessed in new Hampshire was about the 100 years vision - the future.
Don't use your ignorance as a weapon. here's the "limited voice":
http://clark04.com/speeches/
Just read the title if your readin' is too slow

[robbedvoter]

46. read Clark's sommation to karl Rove - and understand what you missed:

So if Karl Rove is watching today, Karl, I want you to hear this loud and clear - I'm going to provide tax cuts to ease the burden for 34 million American families and lift hundreds of thousands of children out of poverty by raising the taxes on one-tenth of one percent of families in America, those who make more than a million dollars a year. You don't have to read my lips, I'm saying it.* And if that makes me an "old style? "Democrat, then, I accept that label with pride and dare you to come after me for it. Because what I am talking about today is in the best tradition of Wilson and Roosevelt; of JFK, LBJ, and Bill Clinton - and it is in the best interest of the United States of America!
http://www.clark04.com/speeches/025/