What IS the best system of collecting votes?

[prof_science]

It's always been baffling to me (and I know I'm not saying anything new here or treading new emotional waters) that, with our technological aptitude, we can't reliably count the number of people who prefer candidate X.

Now, issues of voter intimidation and supression aside, I'm asking you, the savvy political observers and operators here at DU, what is the best way to tally votes? I'll leave the interpretation of the word "best" up to you, but I hope you know what I'm driving at here.

What? electronic machine with a paper printout that can be verified and dropped in a box? is optical scanning good or bad?

I know this answer is debated in a number of forums, but I would like to hear DUers on the matter.

[mhr]

1. Pen And Paper - Slow Counting Though!

eom

[prof_science]

6. You are right...

...but the slow counting is a problem. And, the people couting would have their own biases-- and the assembly language of the brain is, at this time, not accessible and subject to review...

[Jasper 91]

9. It's not slow though

Here in the UK we have the paper ballots , which are counted by hand . We always have the results no later than early the next morning . There has never been a need for protracted court cases .

This topic was debated yesterday . Here is my post from a thread asking which country has the best voting system .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=22166&mesg_id=22430

:)

[prof_science]

13. Thank you

thanks for linking that thread. I'm starting to agree that, as you said "In elections , low-tech is the only way to go."

[Jasper 91]

20. You're welcome .

Sorry if I'm coming over a bit forceful about this , but it is something I feel strongly about . I really empathise with your plight , and believe me when I tell you that , outside of America , * is reviled and feared in equal measure . We are horrified that another stolen election , has returned this 'Demon' to TWH .

I just hope that following the NH recount , evidence of voter fraud is found and acknowledged , so that recounts in Ohio and Florida can't be opposed .

I sincerely hope , with all my heart , that the results of this election are overturned . Not just for you and me , but for all humanity .

[prof_science]

22. No way...

I don't think this is something that you COULD be too forceful about. It is all I can think about anymore. If we can't reliably count the votes that are cast, what the fuck ELSE matters? Courting the religious, expanding the base, bullshit. Just count the friggin votes!

[Zero Gravitas]

17. Yup only way to go

pen and paper and hand counting done in public with representatives of the public and the candidates present.

[NMDemDist2]

2. optical scanning with hack proof tallies n/t

[Jasper 91]

15. Until there is a computer that is completely hack-proof

Is 100% accurate all of the time , and is not 'affected by a heatwave' , low-tech is really the way to go .

I am at a loss to understand why anyone would even consider optical scanners , touch-screen machines or punch card ballots . Every one of these methods has been shown to be unreliable , so why throw good money after bad ? Scrap them all and revert back to pen and paper . The money saved could be spent ensuring that all the electoral rolls are kept up to date , so no-one should ever be disenfranchised because they have changed their address .

[Maddy McCall]

26. The good thing about op scan is that there are paper ballots that...

can be counted by hand if necessary.

[bigwillq]

3. Have an open election where a voter must publicly announce

who they're voting for kind of like a caucus.
For those who can't attend a meeting of this nature like a handicap or ill person, then have a state rep. go to their house, hospital, etc. and record via tape machine or video their vote.

And if people are too afraid to openly announce who they are voting for then screw them.

[bayby]

28. Amen brother !

Secrecy is death in elections. Every ballot should be signed and the signatures compared to those on file.

[jdj]

4. I think there need to be mandatory audits and alot more oversight.

I think optical scans are the best of the electronic machines because the have paper in them.

DRE's are the worst I think, like touch-screens.

Even with punch-cards you have spoilage, and the spoiled ballots are mainly from minority precincts.

Definitely get rid of DRE's.

Get uninterested partys, like monkeys or elephants or dolphings, to do the auditing and recounts.

[wtmusic]

5. punch cards

Internationally-reknowned computer security expert Bruce Schneier: "Computerized voting is a horrendously dangerous idea".

[baldguy]

7. Op Scan

Anything that can be processed quickly AND be checked by hand for verification. There should also be a "pre-scan" where a voter can run the ballot through to ensure that its marked correctly, before they hand the ballot in.

[prof_science]

8. I think I tend to agree with you. eom

[DoBotherMe]

11. Along w/optical scan maybe a

ballot smorgasbord where you can choose if you want to vote for only the legislative and chief exec positions. This last ballot in my state was outrageous ... I voted on one proposition and a straight ticket, the rest I ignored. But for a new voter it could have been extremely intimidating.

[Career Prole]

10. I agree with Thom Hartmann...

It's time that the USA - like most of the rest of the world - returns to paper ballots, counted by hand by civil servants (our employees) under the watchful eye of the party faithful. Even if it takes two weeks to count the vote, and we have to just go, until then, with the exit polls of the news agencies. It worked just fine for nearly 200 years in the USA, and it can work again.

When I lived in Germany, they took the vote the same way most of the world does - people fill in hand-marked ballots, which are hand-counted by civil servants taking a week off from their regular jobs, watched over by volunteer representatives of the political parties. It's totally clean, and easily audited. And even though it takes a week or more to count the vote (and costs nothing more than a bit of overtime pay for civil servants), the German people know the election results the night the polls close because the news media's exit polls, for two generations, have never been more than a tenth of a percent off.
http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/110604Z.shtml

I don't mind waiting a bit. Not anymore.

[prof_science]

12. Solid.

And I take back my statement earlier about the long tally time being a "problem." It's not nearly as much of a problem as getting the count wrong.

[Career Prole]

23. I wonder how the Germans get their exit polls that tight? Larger samples

taken all day?
Oh, and welcome to DU! :hi:

[salvorhardin]

14. Hell yeah!

Good old precision German engineering!

I've been an IT professional since 1989. Before that I was (still am) a computer enthusiast/hobbyist dating back to 1979. I love electronics, computers and everything about them. However, that very thing about computers that has fascinated me since I was a little kid -- their infinite mutability -- is what makes them absolutely undesirable when it comes to counting the will of the people.

[Career Prole]

25. Quite true!

And as far as my computer goes, I wouldn't trust it with dessert selection! :argh:

[prof_science]

16. OK, great, but...

...on what basis would (or "do") the Repugs battle a proposal for an all paper ballot system? It's not too expensive, is it? What argument do they use to say that a paper ballot and manual counting is not worth implementing nation wide? I've been sleeping on this issue, it seems. I'm not happy to admit this, either...

[EndElectoral]

18. SSN Voter Pictures and Cross Reference to actual Vote

The SSN would be stored as actual voting, and ONLY the voter could review the result of the VOTE, but whether a VOTE was cast could be reviewed.

This would allow an audit of number of votes per county and still allow individual voters to verify AFTER the election that their vote was recorded the way they actually voted.

[prof_science]

19. yabbut

You could verify your own vote, but the total tally would still be easily f'ed with, no?

[wtmusic]

21. If it's computerized it's still flawed

The computer can keep all the records of the actual vote and skew the total. Easily.

[salvorhardin]

30. Bingo.

It's not necessarily the individual machines, although we saw that plenty this election. That's only the crudest, grossest way of manipulating the vote.

It's the computers and more importantly the software on which the tabulation is done.

[Maddy McCall]

24. Paper bubble-in ballots counted by optical scan...

so that if a recount is necessary, there is a paper trail.

[BeFree]

27. Scans are too costly

And prone to error.

Paper ballots are cheap and easily audited. I am in the process of getting my county to get rid of the damned machines, and paper is the ONLY alternative.

Glad to hear Germany, England and Canada use paper. Maybe it's time we caught up with them?

[bayby]

29. There's nothing magical about paper...

It's just compact. I believe that some kind of tamper-proof plastic vial into which the voter inserts a token with his candidate's picture on it would be very, very nice. In case of doubt, you could even examine the fingerprints for conclusive proof.