Dutch Film Maker killed by Muslim Extremists

[Canadian_moderate]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6388253/

Being a Dutch-born Canadian, I have followed this event since it took place a few days ago. My take on this is that even the liberal Dutch have become intolerant of religious intolerance. I was there on vacation in 2002 and earlier this year, and many people are fed up with the inability of consevative cultures (and religions) not being able to fit in with Dutch culture. It's not so much a race thing as contempot and hatred towards fundamentalist religions.

Van Gogh basically insulted all religions, including Christian, Jews and Muslims. The only difference is that extremist Muslims were ready to kill him for his blasphemy against their religion.

What do you guys think about this?

[rockydem]

1. I think it's pretty sad

Dogmatic fundamentalism is a cult.

[DulceDecorum]

2. Too damn Agatha Christie

for my taste.
Looks like a set up.

[Canadian_moderate]

3. How so?

This is fairly similar to the assasination of Pim Fortuyn. A so-called right-wing politician, who actually took liberal positions to the extreme. He was gay, anti-religion, and resented the fact that Islam was not willing to be more tolerant in his liberal country.

I think it is time that we condemn all religous extremism and stop making excuses for Islamic extremists. Religious extremism and hatred is wrong regardless of whether the religion is Christianity, Islam and Judaism. These religions have to accept freedom of speech in countries where freedom of speech is practiced.

[DulceDecorum]

4. Pim Fortuyn, who Van Gogh was making a film about,

supported pedophilia.

"It is strange that they could criticise him, quite rightly, for being racist, but were unwilling to raise this other matter. I can't say for sure that he was a paedophile himself, but he was certainly an advocate for adult-child sex."
Van Engelen cites a column Fortuyn wrote for the Dutch current affairs magazine, Elsevier, in 1999. It was so on-message for pro-paedophile campaigners that it was reproduced by Koinos, a magazine for homosexual paedophiles.
In his article, Fortuyn wrote: "Paedophilia is just like hetero and homosexuality. It is something that is in the genes. There is little if anything that you can do about it or against it. You are who you are… sooner or later the proclivity makes its irresistible appearance. It is not any more curable than hetero or homosexuality."
http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?id=513942002&tid=223

The victims of such abuse often kill the abuser in fairly grusome ways.
Sometimes though, it is not even a victim who performs the execution.

He (Theo van Gogh ) verbally assaulted the "LEFTWING, politically correct mafia and politicians" whom he held responsible for "demonising" Pim Fortuyn, the anti-establishment and anti-immigrant politician who was assassinated two years ago. "The Netherlands is beyond hope and beyond reason," was his conclusion.
<snip>
Van Gogh's last production will be aired on the Internet in December and shown in the cinemas from January. Titled '0605', it deals with the assassination of Pim Fortuyn on 6 May, 2002, and was meant as homage to the populist leader who shook the Dutch political establishment.
http://www.rnw.nl/hotspots/html/ned041102.html

In any case,
If Van Gogh was making a film about Mr. NAMBLA,
someone somewhere might have been rather annoyed about glorifying that pervert.
I personally,
shall shed no tears.

As for making excuses,
how the hell do you know that it WAS an Islamic extremist?

In a report by Dutch national broadcaster NOS quoted by AP, an unidentified witness who lives in the neighborhood said she heard six shots and saw the suspect concealing a gun. She said he walked away slowly, spoke to someone at the edge of the park, and then ran.
She said he was wearing a long beard and Islamic garb and appeared to be either an Arabic man or SOMEONE DISGUISED AS A MUSLIM.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/11/02/netherlands.filmmaker/

It could EASILY have been someone by the name of Adam Pearlman
who is known to have assaulted at least one imam.

"Adam Yahiye Gadahn is being sought in connection with possible terrorist threats against the United States," the FBI said. "Although the FBI has no information indicating this individual is connected to any specific terrorist activities, the FBI would like to locate and question this person. He should be considered armed and dangerous."
<snip>
"Having been around Muslims in my formative years, I knew well that they were not the bloodthirsty, barbaric terrorists that the news media and the televangelists paint them to be," the statement said.
Gadahn's aunt, Nancy Pearlman, described her nephew as inquisitive and quick to learn languages. He read about several religions, she said, noting his mother's family is Catholic and he had a Jewish grandfather on his father's side.
"He was raised to be religious, to believe in a God," Pearlman said outside her Los Angeles home. "He made his own choice. We all make our own choices in life."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,121040,00.html

[Canadian_moderate]

6. To be honest...

I don't know much about Theo van Gogh or what he really stood for. I just know that he was controversial and basically said and did whatever he felt like. He was basically a hedonist, someone who loved to be controversial. The fact remains that he was obviously killed by an extremist. Moderates don't murder opponents for their views or speech. BTW, the assailant tried to saw off his head, which seems pretty extreme to me.

Besides verbally assualting the left wing in the Netherlands, he also verbally assaulted the Christian right-wing and any other religious groups. Based on what I have experienced in the Netherlands, I believe that they have a significant population of "extreme liberals" who no longer have tolerance for what they perceive as intolerance. It seems pretty unique to their culture. They're not traditional left and right wing. It's a weird combination.

As for NAMBLA and other paedophiles, I have no sympathy for them either. Paedophilia is wrong, plain and simple, but is political assasination.

[DulceDecorum]

5. Religious extremists do NOT accept

the viewpoints of anyone else.
That is what makes them extremists.

In the US, the GOP extremists
have said bluntly that anyone who is not with them, is against them.
Diebold voting machines have been installed to ensure that everyone who votes, votes GOP.

I also find it very telling that you would would write:
These religions have to accept freedom of speech in countries where freedom of speech is practiced.

Religious people of every stripe will tell you that they follow their own scripture, the government be damned. And the governments know of this, and allow it to continue.

Furthermore,
WHERE
on this planet,
is freedom of speech practised?

Nowadays, several countries have enacted "laws" deny one the right to even know what one has been accused of. How then, can one speak up in one's own defense?

[Canadian_moderate]

7. I'm not taking sides here

I'm basically disgusted that people are being killed for speaking out against a particular religion.

Death threats have been made to Hirsi (a former Muslim, Somalian-Dutch and member of Dutch Parliament) who is very outspoken about the treatment of women in Islamic culture.

In Canada, similar types of threats have been made against a Canadian (lesbian) femenist by the name of Irshad Manji for speaking out against injustices in the name of Islam.

In our democractic societies, we cannot allow people to be intimidated or threatened by a particular religion.

You are right, no country has 100% freedom of speech, but we do have significant rights in North America and Western Europe. I'm not interested in repealing these rights just to satisfy some conservative religions that myay be offended by these rights and the way people exercise those rights.