Open Letter to all those "Nader Haters"

[GHOSTDANCER]

I'm through.... I just can't understand you. It makes me hate DU kinda..... and DU is an awesome,awesome place that deserves better. I just don't understand? I can't believe the hate that has been created over the past 4 years......... a fairy-book evil conspiracy novel has been written behind this guys back and somehow has become acceptable reading...that has somehow become trendy? on Walmarts top 10.

I realize this is a Democratic forum but the fury over this guy. I can't even go into a "Nader" header without feeling bad and pissed off. Maybe we should piss all over the Libertarian nominee? or the Socialist party's nominee or hey lets piss on Cobb the Gp's.

Look I'm not here to change minds or in anyway endorse Nader. I got my chips on Kerry I really love Cobb's vision and will feel as if I'm somehow settling after learning more about him. Really sad that he and LaMarche didn't even get shown to us. just a couple names on the ballot to most.

But I know it takes time and Kerry's a good step forward. But please I beg of you show some compassion for a good decent, hard working guy who'sreally just been sticking to his guns for all of us. and I know many of you will look back and feel bad about how you treated a person that for the most part didn't really know very much about to begin with.

[neuvocat]

1. Why don't you ask about Nader's Haliburton stock?

[CaOs]

13. Well .....lets see

My kids are hungry, I'm out of work, my freinds are diein in Iraq, I'm gonna lose my job. But at least I voted my conceince.
even though I voted agianst corperations and becouse of a bush reelection....corps rule the world now more than ever.

Wake up, Grow up, vote for nader in 4 years.....tomorrow...do the pratcical thind and vote Dem.

[WindRavenX]

2. I do not respect him

He says there is no difference between Kerry and Bush.
I do not respect any man that fails to realize that fundemental difference.

[MadProphetMargin]

3. Why hate Nader?

I had just forgiven him for killing the Corvair, and then he killed America.

[lancdem]

4. Sorry

not interested in any defenses of St. Ralph.

[kokomo]

19. Naderites hijacked AlterNet.org with much Kerry hate!

I used to enjoy lurking/posting there until the Naderites came in like gangbusters and turned it into Freeperville.

http://forums.alternet.org/bin/motet?enter+-ujaS9S+Elec...

[Vickers]

5. "over the past 4 years" *checks profile* Oh, you meant 4 months...

Nader has been good as a consumer activist, but as a politician? Shitty.

[kokomo]

51. My Corvair Monza lost its trade-in value thanks to Ralph.

Ralph USED the Corvair to promote himself..........but Ralph was wrong.

One of the best little cars I ever owned in my college years. In fact I was able to pull it out of a dangerous 60 mph spin out on ice once. Never had a bad experience with it.

Some fellow Corvair lovers who hate Ralph for using us to get rich.

http://www.corvaircorsa.com/handling01.html

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/t286718.html

[Vickers]

61. Eh, I was just trying to throw the OP a bone

I've since changed my mind after seeing even the SLIGHTEST criticism about Ralph interpreted as something more.

Fuck Ralph Nader and the horse George is scared of.

[Robbie67]

6. Nice sentiment, Ghostdancer

I hope you won't be burned to a crisp...maybe just a light toasting.

[NNadir]

7. Fuck that Repuke.

He's a fraud and a liar. He's been embezzling money from poor people since the 1970's and now that he's been finally recognized for the piece of shit he always been, I'm perfectly relieved.

While the fucking war was breaking out he was lecturing us on NBA officiating and Microsoft's policy of not paying dividends.

Fuck him!

Let me say that slowly so you can understand it:

F-U-C-K T-H-A-T R-E-P-U-K-E W-H-O-R-E NADER.

[MadProphetMargin]

10. Don't hold back...tell us how you REALLY feel.

"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."
-Samuel Adams

[Dookus]

8. When Ralph becomes a Democrat

and runs as one, then we'll look at him.

But for now, fuck him with a pointy stick.

[Kanary]

9. I hear you, but it's useless.

Some people, whether RW or LW need a whipping boy, and Nader is it.

If Kerry loses, there won't be any analyzing of his campaign, or the choice that was made... all bile will be once again focues on Nader.

That way, we don't ever have to look at our own assumptions, or choices -- we have someone to tak out all the frustration on.

Quite convenient, actually.

Kanary

[Redleg]

23. I don't agree. There will be plenty of analysis of Kerry's campaign

if he loses. The usual elite media "liberals" will blame Kerry for being too liberal and out of touch. The Naderites and other assorted Kerry haters will say Kerry is too Republican lite and out of touch.

You seem to imply that we Kerry supporters don't care to question our assumptions or to reflect on our thoughts and choices. How the hell do you know what we think? I guess only true progressives like you have the predisposition to be introspective.

[Kanary]

24. BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!

[Redleg]

27. That's the kind of response I expected.

I guess you don't care to discuss- you would rather arrogantly laugh.

[Kanary]

32. What's to discuss???

You dismissed me as a "Kerry hater", and a "progressive elitist", and I'm supposed to beg you to "discuss"?

Shit.

You come on with attacks, and that's it.

You lost any "debate" the moment you resorted to attack and name-calling.

buhbye........

Kanary

[Redleg]

36. I didn't call you a Kerry hater.

Your initial post was an attack. You were implying that Kerry supporters won't look within themselves to explain Kerry's loss but would rather blame Nader.

You can take your arrogant "buhbye" bullshit and your feigned hurt and __________.

[Redleg]

46. I guess that means I won.

Buh bye.

[MadProphetMargin]

49. Yep.

[KingChicken]

11. He should have bowed this one out

This is't about the next 4 years, its a turning point in American history. Can't Nader just wait it out untill things get settled, it's really hot right now and all the Nader people are just killing me, please save it for after the election.

[xultar]

12. Why can't he take one for the team this go round. that's all we are askin

just this one time!

even his friends think something is wrong with him.

[Liberal Veteran]

14. I respectfully disagree with your opinion....

Instead of doing something to make positive change in the last four years, Nader basically hid in the sidelines and then decided to rear his head when really the only people that want him are people who are hoping he pulls enough votes for Bush to win.

Sorry, but he's an egoist and a sellout and he is so blinded by his own ego he cannot even comprehend the damage he is doing.

In short, I once respected the man greatly....now I feel nothing but sadness for his strange descent into whatever senility has grabbed him.

[nodehopper]

15. The problem is, I don't think Nader is a decent guy

I think he is a narcissist who has engaged in unfair labor practices, and whose movement has come to represent nothing except his own ego. I know a lot about Nader because I have always been interested in his views and his politics, and used to agree with them back when I could separate his politics from his personal agenda. So, yeah, I will show compassion for any good, decent, hardworking guy any day. I don't believe Nader qualifies.

[Redleg]

16. Why bring this up on election eve? Can't this wait until later?

Jeebus- it's just like us dumb ass liberals to shoot each other in the fucking heads.

[nodehopper]

21. yeah, really. that too.

[freetobegay]

17. Stop getting the Repukes to stop funding him

& maybe just maybe I'll stop hating him.

[nodehopper]

20. you mean start :)

[lightbulb]

18. I hear you, GHOSTDANCER

While most of my lower instincts compel me to curse his name, I know in my heart that Nader has done nothing wrong. He's simply offering the people another choice, and freedom of choice is inherently good. If Nader were to decide to drop out for Kerry's sake, Nader would essentially be forcing the hands of people who would have otherwise voted for him. That would show a profound disrespect for the will of the people.

All the venom and cries of treason directed at Nader should be rightfully be redirected toward all those folks who are not voting for Kerry. The voters are deciding who becomes president, after all, not the candidates themselves. Well, in theory anyhow.

[nodehopper]

22. also the libertarian nominee isn't taking votes away from kerry

[Ol Sugar Coat]

25. Nader is a fraud. His insatiable need for the spotlight has proven his own

I really despise the man. There is right, and there is wrong. He has committed a grave wrong TWICE now against the anti-Bush MAJORITY. Stop defending this clown. It's not out of the question for a third party to gain traction in a presidential election ... but they have to find a kickass, credible, electable candidate first, and Ralph Mouth ain't it.

[MadProphetMargin]

28. Bingo.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

26. as i've said often, i know the guy

he's hardly the republican agent everyone here makes him out to be. nor is the man an egotist

he wants the same things the more progressive of us here want. he just has a different theory as to the means of how we can reach that final goal.

[Liberal Veteran]

29. I daresay consigning the country to fascism is hardly a sane theory..

...for how to bring progressive ideals to light.

[OutsourceBush]

30. F Nader

[NightTrain]

31. I voted for Nader in both 1996 and 2000.

I will not, however, be voting for him this year. If that makes me a "Nader hater" in your eyes, then so be it.

[IrishBloodEngHeart]

33. Nader hates Kerry

and is working for his loss. What do you expect us to do? Support him?

[in_cog_ni_to]

34. I USE to have a lot of respect for Nader. Not anymore.

His ego got in the way of what's best for this country! Nader can go to hell.

[LiberalForEver]

40. Ditto!

[DrBB]

35. As a Nader voter in 2000, I say fuck him.

Does that answer your question? He is what's known to authoritarians and totalitarians as a "useful idiot." If he had decided not to run this time he could have preserved his value as a critic of the current 2-party monopoly for another day. But there is a time for realism, and he is shit, in my opinion.

[Endangered Specie]

37. I STILL hope Nader drops dead.

That is still all.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

38. how freeper-esque of you

it never fails to amaze me how you simply say 'nader' and folks here go bark mad and hoping for his death-yet oddly enough no one has anything to say bad about the corporatization of the party throughout the 90s that contributed just as, if not more, to gore's 2000 loss

[Endangered Specie]

42. and I STILL hope that he drops dead.

and I dont give a damn what you think of it.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

48. whatever floats your boat

like i said, though, it amazes me that normally reasonable people can turn into instant freepers at the mere mention of a guy's name

[Endangered Specie]

50. Last I checked, it was the freepers and repos who help support him

go figure

[Rebellious Republican]

39. Since Ralph became an undeclared republican..............

Gop Funds Nader campaign, time to go to school,here take your pick...
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=GOP+funds+Nader+ca...

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

41. kerry takes more money from double-dipping GOP donors than ralph

folks who want to ensure a return on their investment no matter who wins

[Rebellious Republican]

56. Its easy, Vote Bush, Vote Nader, Vote Kerry, Don't Vote, those are

your choices. Otherwise, I don't give a big hairy rats ass. Save it for the freepers at freerepublic!!!!

[Robbie67]

44. republican?

what issues does he share with Republicans?

[MadProphetMargin]

47. The idea that Bush should be re-elected.

That is all.

[Robbie67]

52. Obviously he doesn't share that

since he's the only one calling for Bush's impeachment

[MadProphetMargin]

53. Theatrics.

[Robbie67]

72. Theatrics?

Did George Bush commit a crime or not?

[tuvor]

43. Nader's the wrong choice at the wrong time.

I am, however, truly annoyed at those who blame him for the 2000 results. That energy would've been better spent going after the people who had the clout to install bush. Or the hundred million majority who, by virtue of not voting, said, "I don't really care."

I hope that they care now.

[Vickers]

45. You know, there IS a Nader website...

No shit! I went and typed "ralph nader" in to Yahoo, and the very first page was this one:

http://www.votenader.org /

Pretty wild!

Hey, he still needs like $100,000 by tomorrow, so pony up, huh?

[Robbie67]

54. Nice

I guess you didn't read the original post.

But, hey, don't let that stop you!

[Vickers]

60. Actually, I DID read the original post!

So Cheney you!

[roguevalley]

55. he has debates with dollies. He's lost his mind. Repug money

appeals to him. He has no appeal to me. He sold his soul, the jackass.

[Skittles]

57. NADER CAN F*** HIMSELF

and f*** it I'M THROUGH EXPLAINING WHY

[TahitiNut]

63. Really? Have you watched? Do you have it on video?

[Kahuna]

58. ZZZZzzzzz

P.S. Nader isn't sticking to his guns for 'all of us.' If he cared about "us" or the country he would not have run.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GHOSTDANCER]

62. Reply to all replyers.....

I step out for about an hour and I got 30 replies back. I know Nader strikes a cord with many of you, it must because I've posted in the in the "Latest Breaking News" forum, news articles that were so important to world affairs and history and got replies I could count on one hand and yet every Nader thread seems to light up like a Christmas tree. Is it that you feel betrayed? Are you replying in frustration? Is a last ditch effort to sway the remaining voters? Have we forgotten the things Nader stood up for us in the past? Are we just brainwashed into believing that its OK to have a 2 party system(1 more choice then a dictatorship?) I mean should we have a pie throwing contest? By some of the language maybe a stoning.

look again I'm not here to sway anyone, I'm just asking, Please stop the Hate. This is not survivor. He a real human being. Hate breeds Hate, end of story.

[charlie]

64. Not everyone has a beef with Nader

I don't.

But we've been over this Nader--hero/villian thing at DU a million times, invariably with both sides intractable and feelings running whitehot. There's not much point to starting threads like this anymore, unless you enjoy shouting matches, because that's all you'll ever get.

[Kanary]

65. Which is a sad loss for the Dems, and humanity in general.

That's why some of us no longer do see much hope here.



Wonder just how bad it will have to get before growing up becomes a valid choice?

Kanary

[Julien Sorel]

67. What is "growing up?"

Is it "grown up" to whine about perceived personal attacks in almost every thread in which you participate, and then run off with a superior huff?

[Kanary]

68. And who are you?

Have I ever "huffed" about you?

Y'know, if you can ever learn to actually *LISTEN* to people, rather than sneering, maybe there can actually be peace.

But, go ahead..... shit on everyone you damned well feel like.

Then, talk about "getting out the vote".



THIS, right here, is where the party is splitting. RIGHT HERE.

For this ego shit.

buhbye........

Oh yeah..... you're aching to have the last, stinging word, so have at it. I'm sure it will add much to the quality of discourse here.

and comvince more people to vote Dem. Yup, that'll do it.

Kanary

[Redleg]

73. LOL!

You noticed that too, huh>

[sandnsea]

74. HEY!! We're saving the damned world!

Come back next week, then we'll chat all you want. For now, get in line or get out of the way. How hard is that for Nader DUers to figure out, we DON'T HAVE TIME FOR YOU.

[GreenPartyVoter]

66. Hear, hear!

[NervousRex]

69. The 2004 model Nader cultists...

I have met and heard will NOT take votes away from Kerry. They will never vote for a major party candidate...so I am not concerned about their effect. 2000 was a different story..and I think Bush has scared most of those people into the Kerry camp this year. Nader's main function this election is as a Republican stooge, and cover for election theft. Nader will probably move to Guyana and set up a compound in 2005.

[Selwynn]

70. SHORT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My dad, two days before he was getting out of the army after tour in Vietnam, had a CO dressing him down for not being clean shaven (and probably some other stuff) - when CO asked him for his explanation, he simply said: "short."

Mean, I'm getting out of the army in two fricken days. The guy just gave him a tiny barely crack of a smile and moved on.

IT IS ONE FUCKING HOUR (my time) TO ELECTION DAY in one of the most important elections of my life time so far, and probably of my life time to come. If you think I GIVE A CRAP that you don't think we've all been nice enough to NADER you are INSANE.

I'll care on Novemeber 3rd. But for now, shut up.

[Kanary]

76. back atcha

you're o'reilly imitatation is.......... endearing.........

[bvar22]

71. Unlike 2000, at least the Democratic Party...

...fielded some progressive candidates in the primaries. Kucinich's platform shared many of the same issues as Nader. The Conservative pro-corporate Democratic(DLC)leadership was frightened by the size grass root support for the liberal candidates, and used Democratic Party money to torpedo the campaigns of these candidates.

Since the Democratic Party allowed liberal candidates to at least talk about liberal values during the primaries, Nader has lost the only valid argument for staying in the race. My vote will go to Kerry.


I love America. Anyone can run for president including Nader. Nader doesn't steal votes from Kerry, the conservative Democratic Party leadership (DLC) chooses to throw those votes away in favor of their corporate sponsors. So be it; the two party system sucks, but the TWO PARTIES want it that way.

Ralph Nader is a brilliant man. Go hear him speak. Read his books. He talks about issues that the two major parties would rather you remain ignorant about. Kill the messenger if it make you feel better, but read the message!

The unexpected support during the Democratic Primaries for the Liberal Candidates has spawned a new progressive organization within the Party. I believe a liberal revolution within the Democratic Party is possible, and I will be giving my money, sweat and blood to this organization.

http://www.pdamerica.org /

I no longer contribute to the DNC/DLC or any other organization that promotes WAR or Global Corporatization!

Everybody should vote for Kerry/Edwards and entire National Democratic Ticket!
Nobody should vote for Nader, but everybody should listen to what he has to say.

Peace

[The_Casual_Observer]

75. "It makes me hate DU kinda"

I kinda hate your post. Nader is running an illegitimate campaign. It turn out he is a very simple man with very simple an impractical ideas that can't work. Accusing Kerry of being just like bush is dumb, foolish and untrue. Futhermore, what exactly has Nader accomplished in the last 30 years anyway? Where does his money come from? What good has he done for anybody but himself?

[bvar22]

77. "illegitimate campaign"? How so?

What makes Nader's campaign "illegitimate"? This is still the USA; any native citizen over 21 can run for president.
If Nader is breaking laws, he should be arrested!

"impractical ideas that can't work"
If you mean Universal Healthcare, you better check with every other developed country in the WORLD. Works for them.

Living Wage?
Strong environmental legislation?
Criminalizing Global Corporatism?
Publicly Financed Elections?
Criminalizing Corporate lobbying of Publicly Elected Officials?
Strong Anti Trust legislation?
Limiting the size and power of corporations?
Strong Labor Protection?
Progressive taxation that favors the working class?

All seem very practical to me.
Please list some of Nader's "impractical ideas".


Kill the meessenger if it makes you feel good, but at least read the message!

Kerry in a LANDSLIDE!

[WildEyedLiberal]

81. Erm, don't you have to be 35 to run for president?

[WildEyedLiberal]

78. This is so weird to me

I don't understand how Ralph Nader has any support on a Democratic messageboard. I understand that there are lots of different opinions here at DU, but what I don't understand is people who will criticize actualy Democratic candidates (ie John Kerry) as "too conservative" or "warmongering" or whatever and foist the banner of Nader and various other fringe candidates. It is very strange to feel like a minority on a Democratic messageboard for enthusiastically supporting John Kerry and thinking that he is a good man and agreeing with his positions. I've even heard people on DU say that Kerry is not a liberal and is just another corporate whore who supports the fascist two party system, Republican lite, blah blah blah...

I do not like Ralph Nader. I don't think he'll spoil this election for John Kerry, but I resent to no end his repeated assertations that Kerry is no different from Bush and would be a bad president. I cannot respect that at all, because it shows a clear denial of reality. Does anyone seriously think that Ralph fucking Nader (or any other third party candidate this year, for that matter) could actually serve as the President of the United States in every capacity of the job? Does anyone actually think Nader would be a good Commander in Chief? That he would have the same credibility and understanding of foreign relations as John Kerry? That his policies are actually realistic and achievable, given the wide spectrum of political opinion in this country?

So shoot me for being a realist. Don't try to tell me that I'm not liberal enough because I eagerly support Kerry, or that he's somehow just a few degrees more liberal than Bush. I don't buy that and never will. It's very strange to feel this way on a Democratic web site. I understand everyone here is voting for Kerry, but I just don't understand the enmity many people here have towards him. So many people are convinced he'll be little better than Bush - why? I think he is going to make a great president and he'll pursue policies that help the people, not the filthy rich. He'll be a great populist leader, just wait and see. I'm looking forward to his victory.

[Born Free]

79. Nader faithful much like bush coward faithful

The Nader faithful seem to ignore reality , can't accept when he is wrong. Nader was a great leader but lately he is not helping America.

[Joefess]

80. BLAH

I voted for Nader in 2000, If I were in a swing state and not in CA at the time I would still be kicking myself today for my choice.

Most Nader voters think they are on the fringe and they are going to teach everyone a lesson with their vote. They are going to stick it to the 2 party system!!! WRONG!! I know, I was part of that mindset. In this election you are doing nothing but voting for Bush if you vote Nader, it's been proven. Also from what I know now I would NEVER vote for Nader again seeing that he accepted a lot of money from the right for his '04 campaign. He's phoney, though at one time he had the peoples interest in mind. With that said Nader and all other parties should be represented in the debates and on all ballets. BUT... It's time to hold Dubya & Co. accountable, voting Kerry will do just that.

[Snotcicles]

82. Good bit Ghostdancer

I'll be voting for Kerry also. Watching what the Democrats and Republicans have done to try and ruin Ralph Nader, was like watching a gang circling and kicking a man on the ground. I just hope Nader stays involved, just to keep an eye on any new group of could be fascists.

[Moderator]

83. Locking......

This is flamebait.



DU Moderator