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The Brutal Blunt Truth: The War on Terrorism Is The Race War Some People

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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 01:01 PM
Original message
The Brutal Blunt Truth: The War on Terrorism Is The Race War Some People
Feared Would Happen. You say "Solomon", what the hell are you talking about". What I am talking about and have been talking about and always will be talking about is the failure of white americans to recognize, that they are now the only people in this whole wide world, who don't realize and understand, that we are a system of white supremacy. We are the last to know, because we keep deluding ourselves.

We delude ourselves by believing that, by God, if we let a non-white sit in the front of the bus, by golly, we're not racist at all. We're quite progressive and liberal because, see, we've allowed them to move into our neighborhoods.

But there is a type of racism that is not conscious at all. Its ingrained. It's unseen. It's the type of racism where even non-whites have biases against themselves, because they were taught the same things, i.e. "straight hair is better". It's the kind of thing like -- "fish don't see the water they swim in." They think they're flying through the air.

The truth of the matter is that white people are a minority in terms of world wide population. Add that to the fact that when a white person and a non-white person mate, the result is another non-white (according to the definitions set down by whites). If you follow these elements to a logical conclusion, the prospect is presented, that over time, full integration of the peoples of the earth, might result in the genetic annihilation of white peoples (as defined by whites). This causes a problem for a significant portion of white people, and this is the real reason behind the attempts to maintain segregation. (There is also a significant portion of white people for whom true integration causes no alarm- so save your flame for a better point).

But for the people who fear genetic annihilation, control of the non-white populations of the planet is paramount. It is believed that control of the non-white populations of the earth, will prevent genetic annihilation of whites. All areas of people activity (economics, education, entertainment, labor, law, politics, religion, sex and war) are put in the service of controlling and supressing non-whites. Its so immersed in everything, its like that water the fish don't see.

When all the big to-do was made about the "Cold War", some of us knew that the so-called Cold War was not the real issue. Some of us knew that the real world struggle would be North/South, not East/West. And now so it is.

If human life on the planet were allowed to evolve naturally, the Arab nations would have their turn at producing great wealth and development through the great mass of oil that they have inherited. Guess what tho? That's right. We are not going to let that happen. We have so deluded ourselves that it is a matter of "preserving our way of life", a matter of "national security", to murder Iraqis and to steal their oil.

We are wearing the US Flag like a white sheet as we threaten peoples all over the world. Bush is the new sheriff in town, on the world stage. The world "KKK" objecting to the development of any other people of whom it is fantasized, will destroy "our way of life".
This is why Bush is popular and the Democratic party is a shambles.
Bush has touched that raw nerve in Americans, that fear that made us unleash the dogs, and the fire hoses, and the lynchings, and to purchase personal arsenals. The "shoot first ask questions later" rage of Americans which is so peculiar in the world right now. That rage that says, the evidence doesn't matter, we gotta have blood. (Read all the newspaper articles on lynchings at the turn of the century and note the many cases where the suspect was declared to not be the perpetrator, but he was lynched anyway.)

And as if things couldn't be any sadder, we have the nerve to invoke God in the murder and theft. Try doing a pre-emptive strike against a white nation which is not threatening us. Would be a war crime worthy of the likes of Hitler. It is inconceivable. In fact, the true reason behind the absurd vitriol lashed at France and Germany, is that they are perceived to be "white countries", so how dare they not join us in our fight to make world safe for white people? A non-white nation we could understand - but France? Germany?

After the civil war the KKK rose in the South to prevent blacks from obtaining and enjoying their rights, developing as they should. They feared if they didn't do this, they would lose the south, especially in areas where they were outnumbered.

The same scenario is being played out on the world stage. America is currently "terrorizing" other nations into giving weapons and resources and other unfavorable positions which favor our control of the world. If we don't act now while we have the power, we may lose the chance to firmly re-establish white supremacy in the world. It makes me laugh everytime I hear people complain, bitch and moan, about the United Nations. As if anyone actually believed we would submit to a world democracy, a majority vote in a forum in which we are the minority. Too bad we won't let the U.N. teach us how to be civilized on the world stage.

The fear of "race war" that has caused people in America to stockpile personal arsenals is misguided. It's not going to happen in America the way that they imagined. Minorities here are ingrained with the same biases. It's happening on the world stage. By calling it a war on terror, the cabal has laid the groundwork for invading and preliminarily striking any nation they want, from Asia to Africa. You're nuts if you think that the other countries of the world don't see it for what it is. They are not susceptible to the propaganda slop that's being pushed on Americans to justify the carnage.

If we could somehow pull our heads out of our asses, and try and see through our insufferable arrogance and sense of importance, that we can learn things from other peoples of the world, namely how to be civilized, then maybe we might make it. The course we are set on now, however, is a recipe for disaster. The only way to win on the course that's being laid, is to exterminate all peoples who don't agree with us. Strangely enough I hear people thinking their way to this solution - "you can't negotiate with terrorists".

Sometimes I fear that even a democratic victory won't save us in time. The overpropagandized ignorant American public will not let anyone bring us around because to do so would be "losing face."
What f***ing vanity!!!

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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
1. Holy Kamoly, Solomon
You just came out of the bag, I FELT it longtime coming, have NEVER questioned your truthfulness and will be hanging in here with you. Du bist ein Ritter ohne Furcht und Tadeln, meiner Lieber. Mal sehen wie es weiter geht... :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

Did you ever see Whoopi Goldberg's stand-up with the towel, representing her long, luxurious BLONDE HAIR? I had to watch it 3 times to get 1/2 of her words as I was on the floor clutching my gut in uncontrollable FITS of laughter!
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Hi Karenina!
Every now and then it builds up and I have to rant it out. It bugs the hell out of me when I keep reading the "what's wrong with the democratic party", etc. Nobody wants to acknowledge the significance of fear of the global white minority. I think most whites know that worldwide whites are minority and there's also the feeling that birth rates are not making up the difference. Bush has tapped into that and there is no room there for the democrats. They want a piece of it, because they fear they will lose their white base, but there is no room for them there. Whites in the democratic party are going to have to decide. If the party is not "right"(white) enough for you then go a head and join the republicans. Go head. I won't cry over it. And if it means the democratic party loses some support, then so be it, the party needs some cleaning out so that it can grow. We don't need two wings of the same party.

And, I haven't seen the Whoopi. I'll try to look for it. Thanx.
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angee_is_mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #3
40. ready?
OMG, do you think this country is ready to look in the mirror. The democratic party REALLY needs to take a look in the mirror. They need to realize that if they don't have the minority vote they will not win. There just isn't enough White soccer moms who would make up the different.
The party need to stop taking the minority vote for granted, because I am sensing that the democratic base(black)is willing to sit this election out. Some Blacks feel like a mistress with the party. The party is with them when it is time for fun and games(campaigns, votes,elections, photo ops), but when the blacks need them to make a choice they are always holding the short end of the stick. But, the party tells us that they love us all the time and we just need to be patience and work with them until the situation changes.
I'm starting to wonder if it ever will and if I need to find me a lover who would be proud to be with me, and for me in the daytime(after elected) as well as the night time(voting time).
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
2. I don't think this idea is popular in the West

I'm not even sure that most ethnic Europeans (which would include "white" Americans and Australians) even realize that they now constitute something like 15% of the global population, and dropping.

While the neo-feudalists would prefer a pre-Mandela South Africa global model, it is not a realistic goal. The strategy did not work in South Africa, it will not work in the US, and it will not work on a world scale.

The West has not used the blip of pre-eminence that it has enjoyed for the past few centuries wisely.

Imagine a young executive who gets his big break at the shareholders' meeting, his moment in the sun, and he gets up to speak and spits tobacco juice on the board members, emits a loud smelly fart, and calls them all doo-doo heads.

His plans for taking over the company do not have a good prognosis...
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. It's Our Arrogance,
vanity and false sense of importance. We spin everything to make it seem as though it were necessary, when all we have really done is to add to our vanity. So that we can smell good, look good, eat good, we do awful things to other people, so that we can not have to stand in a gas line. Vanity. We think we're better than other people. To assuage our guilt, we spin reasons why other people had to be shitted on. The biggest reason always being, "we're givin 'em freedom. It's all for their benefit." When you shit on the whole world this way, the end is near. No man is an island.
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sistersofmercy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
5. Got a song for you!
You've got to be taught
to hate and fear,
You've got to be taught
from year to year,
It's got to be drummed in your dear little ear,
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught
To be afraid of people whose eyes are oddly made
And people whose skin is a different shade,
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught
Before it's too late,
Before you are 6 or 7 or 8,
To hate all the people your relatives hate,
You've got to be carefully taught,
You've got to be carefully taught.

From the musical, South Pacific. I guess even after all these years ppl still don't get it!
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Thank you. That song
expresses it good. Everything we are subjected too, and particularly before the age of 8, is staggering. We never had a chance.
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sistersofmercy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Nope! Except for those of us who see beyond the veil. It's always
amazed me that this musical is an american classic, it seems the whole point of the story just goes right over the heads of most ppl.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. YES, Sisterofmercy
You have to be CAREFULLY TAUGHT! How can I convey to you my absolute bewilderment as a child growing up in an international community? Where I came from EVERYONE'S DAD (or less frequently, MOM) was a medical professional dedicated to helping people. We, as a "gang" of kids were screamed at in so many languages (NO ONE misunderstood) and were so many different colors, eating whatever any particular "Mama" cooked up for us... Of COURSE I thought that was "NORMAL." HATE? HEH? WHAT'S THAT?

I got it in the face when I integrated the elementary school. To this day, so many decades later, I DON'T GET IT. But the results of the insanity are MANIFESTLY clear. And I grieve.
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sistersofmercy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. It makes me incredibly dismayed as well! The saying "Ignorance is...
bliss!" Well it's completely false, ignorance is full of hate!I would love to single-handedly change american prospective...ahhh, but just too much hateful ignorance. My heart goes out to all those who are unfortunately the target of such ignorance! I've cried on many occasions at the injustice of it!
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Dyedinthewoolliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. I think the
whole saying is "where ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise".
Regarding racism, I agree with Soloman, it is something learned. A person in tune with the human condition, as I think most here are, can tell racisim is learned behavior by watching little children.
They do not pre-judge nor do they discriminate.
I remember as a lad of 3 or 4 getting my mouth washed out with soap for using the word "nigger".
Did it have a lasting effect? You can count on it! :)
Most importantly it showed that my mother believed firmly in her principles. While the method would probably get her in trouble today,I have no regrets that she did it that way. In retrospect I appreciate it........
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
StandWatie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
11. The Cold War was for idiots
Edited on Sun Aug-31-03 02:52 PM by StandWatie
Internally all the players knew that what they were afraid of and arming against wasn't Soviet expansion, it was "radical nationalism" meaning that people in the third world would want to use their natural resources to benefit them and not a US corporation.

Hence the confusion after the Cold War on why we were still constantly at war.
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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
13. extremely perceptive essay, Solomon
well said, and spot on. :)
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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
14. Oh' boy...
Random Musings:

Most people will not and some people cannot wrap their minds around this concept of white nationalism run amok. They don't see the history of "liberating" people of color, by killing them and draining the resources of their land, for their own good.

From the Phillipines to Venezuela, from Cambodia to Bolivia, from Vietnam to all of the continued plundering of African nations... No one looks twice at the genotype represented by those who, Westerners tell you, are spreading communism, aren't able to govern themselves, need the WTO/IMF, etc. They also never seem to know that strangely enough, America funded the insurgents that destabilized those governments, or armed them, or trained them in the School of the Americas, forced them to raise prices on necessities (see Bolivia) or pay eye-popping interest rates to the World Bank as a condition of aid, etc.

There was a Black comedian, speaking in front of armed service people, overseas no less, and he got a big laugh when he said something like, "if your complexion is as dark as mine, you'll get shot over here if you don't have your uniform on, or if you're not making a jump shot..."

I'm not being as concise here as I'd like, but I have to go to the gym now... I needed to get this out.
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. That's what happens to me. Every now and then it gets to me
such much that I gotta let it out. A whole lot of energy is spent pretending that this is not the problem. When people start to acknowledge these things instead of hiding it or faking it, we will start to heal. There is nothing wrong with some whites having these fears - its perfectly natural. If we understand the fear, we know how to react to it in a more appropriate way and we can all chill out. But the past way of doing things, i.e. pissing on people and convincing them that its rain, is over. Its not going to work anymore.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #16
72. When people start to acknowledge....
The << FEAR >> that their collective behaviour has more than earned them the wrath of those in whose faces they so blithely piss (or stand by watching in complicity while reaping the benefits), we can BEGIN to discuss the ramifications.

I daresay the << FEAR >> of DA BIG BLACK COCK would be interesting grist for the mill. In American mythology it encompasses the questions of genetic annihilation, retribution for atrocious abuse, and inadequacy.

It is difficult to "let it out." So often our near and dear simply cannot comprehend the depth of the daily insult. And in truth, unless they themselves have a deep and personal stake in confronting the ugliness of institutionalized racism, they simply cannot. It's MUCH TOO PAINFUL.
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #72
75. Ah now see my love, I was trying to be nice and not give too much away
at one time, but now you've gone there anyway. The true Weapons of Mass Destruction is the genetic material located in the testicals of the black man. It's too raw for people to grasp, but it's why we love guns, bullets, bombs so damn much. They are a sad attempt to try to "level the playing field."

All non-white males are subject to suppression but the most virulous forms are reserved for the black man because his genetic material has the most potential to change skin color.

Its another lesson for another day, and though I am surprised that my original post did not get flamed as much as I thought, hold on to your hat, the damn has burst now.

And its all your fault. :spank:
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #75
90. A funny (?) story...
My youngest was totally WHITE-SKINNED when he was born. I went to the supermarket and a women in line behind me, after remarking on his "cuteness," asked me if I was babysitting. I simply replied, "No." She asked AGAIN and I replied AGAIN. She then went to the manager and asked him to call the police. He told her to "stuff it up her ass." THAT only because I was a Stammkunden. He knew me and was one of the last people to see me pregnant. Suppose he hadn't known me? :silly:
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #75
115. It ain't just black
The Red man has been treated as bad as the black man.

My father was harassed for being Cherokee because he looked indian.. I got harassed growing up because of him and I look white..I am Melungeon a mix of red,black and white...

http://www.weyanoke.org/historyculture.html

Indians faced genocide when whites came over here they took the land away by force and tried to"civilize" the tribes.Indians were made into slaves as well as the black people were.


Truthfully I think the threat isn't just in the black man..
The threat to white hegemony is inside any non-white person or any white person who isn't racist about who they date or marry.



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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 06:52 AM
Response to Reply #115
117. No it isn't just people of African ancestry...
You're right, but I don't believe that was implied in the initial post or the subsequent reponses.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #115
120. "It ain't just black"
It's anybody who ain't white or is by any means determined to have some of that "other" blood. The real kicker will come when those who believe their skin color will keep them from being targets of the *whistle-ass cabal notice their guts impaled by spears.

The white power structure is still raping the Native American people. Was it BIA who recently could not account for 10 billion due them? That's a B. The white supremacist power structure in its myriad incarnations has throughout history and continues to rain death and destruction upon any people whose resources it covets. There is hell to pay and karma is a bitch.
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #120
122. To Clarify - You are correct
Its not just black males, it's all nonwhite males. But the darker the skin color the more venomous the suppression. Because dark skin has the highest potential to change skin color.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #122
126. BWHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
:spank:
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44wax Donating Member (272 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
15. Very well put my EVIL Duer.
How dare you speak the truth. Shhh!! I hear Asskrakk!! He's Kummin' on a statue with titties showing. There goes the rest goosetepping listent to an ass whistle dixie.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. BWHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Edited on Sun Aug-31-03 05:11 PM by Karenina
Oh I wish I was from Dixie, hooray, hooray
In Dixieland I take my stand
To live and die in Dixie...
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
17. Solemn bow of the head
in agreement.
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Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
19. Excellent Analysis!
Edited on Sun Aug-31-03 04:48 PM by Yavin4
I've said over and over, again and again. The American people supported the war in Iraq and continue to do so because we were killing Arabs. It didn't matter that Saddam did not have WMDs. It did not matter that Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11. It did not matter that Al Qeda and Iraq were at odds with one another. All that mattered was that we were killing Arabs.

And that's the basis of the support for Bush. He's seen as the great White defender of White male supremacy. That's the basis of the hatred for Clinton, who was seen as a race traitor, a Southern man who was comfortable around African-Americans.

Whenever someone asks why White poor, working class, and middle class Americans support a political party that's clearly working against their economic, political, and social interests, they should read your post.
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. Thank you
You hit the problem with Clinton on the head. The stuff is so pervasive one could go on and on, but nobody is interested. The race thing is too raw.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
20. The BIGOTRY is not even thinly cloaked anymore.
In fact, racism and bigotry is becoming cool among the republicans.

This republican administration has condescended to count Iraqi casualties, and they seem proud of this fact. To the NeoCon/republicans, the death or maiming of someone with brown skin doesn't count!

rush phlemball defended the bush*/republican decision NOT TO PROTECT IRAQI CULTURAL SITES by insisting that Iraq had no culture. rush stated that if Iraq had a culture, we would be buying Iraqi made automobiles! To deny someone's culture is to deny that person's humanity!

Great essay, Solomon. You NAILED the elephant in the living room that everyone is afraid to talk about. And this elephant REALLY STINKS!

May I copy and send to some friends?
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Copy Away
Edited on Sun Aug-31-03 05:43 PM by Solomon
The more people who understand the better. I appreciate the complement. I suspect though that in time I'll be ranting about the same thing again as I have done in the past.

My rants must be getting better since I haven't been attacked at all this time. I usually get disgusted responses. People who think they are progressive are usually very angry at my points since to them my points imply that they are racist and they hate that. They are convinced that there is not a prejudiced bone in their bodies. And you know really when you come down to it, some of these people can really do some harm since, being convinced that they have escaped the bigotry that mars everyone else's vision, they feel free to do something really racist in complete innocence. Ironic isn't it?
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Sick of Bullshit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #20
60. Did Phlegmball actually say that?
Damn! I knew he was a stupid methane-spouting prick but I didn't think that even HE would say something that freepin' imbecilic. What a total dickweed!
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
21. It seems like a lot of wars from the last thousand years.....
were about that same subject somehow. I am just wondering when people will get that part of the Cro-Magnon part of our existence. It is such a waste of time, effort and people. The days of nations and tribes is becoming a liability for most of us

http://www.history-of-the-holocaust.org/LIBARC/LIBRARY/...
A. Carmon
The Impact of the Nazi Racial Decrees on the University of Heidelberg
Source: A. Carmon, Yad Vashem Studies XI
(snip)

ONE OF THE FIRST objectives realised by the Nazis during the years 1933-1935 was the "cleansing" (Saeuberung) of the German universities of their Jewish students and lecturers. This purge was connected with the attempt to "co-ordinate" (Gleichschaltung) German academic life with the tenets of National Socialism. Yet, while "co-ordination" and "cleansing" seem to us in retrospect to be interrelated processes, the Nazis considered them as two separate issues. The former was a long-range objective, which was never fully realised, while the ousting of Jewish academics was in fact one aspect of the Nazi "solution of the Jewish question."

The following is an attempt to describe the "cleansing" process and to analyse its implications 1 . Although the research presented here is a case study of a single university - Heidelberg* - it also constitutes all attempt to delineate the general characteristics of Nazi racial objectives as implemented in German institutions of higher learning.

The period of political and socio-economic crisis, which marked the decline of the Weimar Republic considerably affected the academic and social climate in several universities. The Nazis exploited the yearning for "national revival" (Nationalerhebung) to stir up social and political unrest, focusing primarily on the "Jewish Question." At Heidelberg the event which exemplified this development was the Gumbel Affair (Fall Gumbel), which rocked the University for two years and created a tense, anti-Semitic atmosphere, which was aggravated by similar "cases" in other universities, such as those of Hans Nawiski, Theodor Lessing, Ernst Cohen and several others.

Emil Gumbel, who was of Jewish origin, was a Socialist and pacifist who openly expressed his convictions. In the summer of 1930, as a result of his scholarly achievements in the field of statistics, he was promoted by the Baden Minister of Education to the position of "extraordinary associate professor." The radical nationalists among the students at Heidelberg, several nationalist professors, as well as the nationalistic parties and press vehemently opposed his appointment, claiming that it was unconstitutional. The Nazi and the nationalistic factions in the Student Union, as well as the right-wing political parties in Baden, attempted to turn this controversy into a political and ideological crisis, thus challenging a traditionally sacred principle of German academia - the complete separation of the State from academic affairs. These (developments proved the vulnerability of German scholars to the violence generated by the adherents of an anti-intellectual ideology. Finally, not only Gumbel's appointment but also his career at Heidelberg was terminated.
(snip)
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #21
29. Nolabels. Don't get me started on the similarities
with Nazi Germany. Its eerie. I firmly believe that America inherited the world white supremacy mantle from that other USA, the Union of South Africa, when the overtness of the system caused its decay, and would no longer work. This had already happened earlier in America and South Africa became the reigning symbol of white supremacy because it still openly practiced apartheid.

South Africa held out as long as it could, and now America and Great Britain, carry the mantle forward.

The thing that struck me about Nazi Germany is that the majority of Germans seemed like decent people just like Americans today. But they got caught up and swept up into a fever of excitement. The thought occurred to me that it could happen just as easily to Americans.

After 9-11, it seems as though we have been following a Nazi script. The speeches with military blazing. The flags, the colors, the bold bragadocio talk, the patriotism ginned up to a fervor. I saw all of that every bit as effective as the tapes I have of the parades and speeches in Nazi Germany. The simultaneous curtailment of civil liberties as you strike at foreigners. Let me stop before I get into another rant.
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #29
46. I like to play leapfrog myself, rants are fine, somebody will ............
read them if you write enough them. Looking to the place where you want to go, instead of where you think you are being led will get you there. Here check out this thread from some other group talking about tribalism and something about ISHMAEL

http://ishmael.com/Interaction/Guestbook/archives/bnetw...

The Bnetwork Guestbook Archives: 1-24 December 1997
(snip)
TO THE KIDS OF THE NW--
Maybe you did, maybe you didn't, but did you hear about my movie idea MYSTERYHISTORY? (read about it at the website www.olywa.net/mysteryhistory/mystery.htm ). Well I have other ideas upon reading MY ISHMAEL. I live in the Northwest (olympia, wa), and was intrigued by the idea of the tribe of the Crow. My idea is this: We--kids who show genuine intrest in the idea--start the tribe of the Crow. We document our tribal experiment on film, detailing what works and what doesn't thru actual practice. This documentary film will serve three purposes:
1). Advertise the existence of the tribe. 2.) Provide a rough draft of How to start a tribe. And 3). Provide a truthful representation by the tribe itself beyond how media outlets may represent the tribe, for better or worse.
This idea is just that an idea, granted. But what doesn't start as an idea? If interested in starting the tribe of the Crow in either Seatlle, Olympia, or Portland please get in touch with me and we'll talk.
We can make this a reality, especially with the powerful communication tool of film.
I'll post more later at my site. Thanx for your time.
Dennis Lanigan <mysteryhistory@olywa.net >
Olympia, WA USA - Friday, December 12, 1997 at 13:26:59 (PST)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Whew!! Quite a short reaction...I am glad you were able to put all that down to share with others. It was probably difficult but hopefully healing to do so.
I would like to share with you what my reaction was to B. Ishmael was a nice story...abit strange but raised interesting observations and points to ponder. B shook the very foundations of my beleif system. I went through the various stages of grief, from denial and anger to finally reaching acceptance...but beyond that too. I have been a social activist for most of my adult life, actually being fortunate to make enough $ to exist in this trading based, taker culture. My basis of action was that I can make a difference and, being a very result oriented person, I will see those changes occur. When I finally accepted the enormity of the changes necessary to bring our culture into harmony with Mother Earth, I had to let go of the idea that I will be around to see those changes effect Mother Culture. But that does not mean I will stop the work that I do for social and environmental justice. That work is the foundation for those changes. I must increase what I do but change the attitudes I have. I was sitting at home one recent evening, contemplating what was the truth. It dawned on me that if I was fortunate enough to discover that truth, it would only be the truth for me. It would be what works for me but not necessarily for all others. If I felt compelled to stand on the street corner preaching my opinions as the only true way, I would be guilty of the same mistakes and lies that Mother Culture has perpetuated for the last 10,000 years. That is not to say that I will not speak my thoughts to others but I will not frame them as absolutes. That realization was the first part in my discovery of my truth and what I wish to speak to others about.
The second concept that I feel we, as humans need to accept, is that we are OF Nature. My friends speak of going out into Nature on the weeknd...I reply that I did also...I went to my home, because that to is part of Nature just as I am part of Nature. We are not over it, or have dominion over it, or stand to the side as observers of it, but Of It. When we, as a society and a civilization accept that premise, I hope that we will begin to understand better the interconnectedness or our very existence on this Spaceship Earth. What we do with our left hand effects the right, when we remove one integral part of an ecological system, we destroy the whole system, when we introduce for pieces to that system we alter the whole system. The first step I have taken in my new ways is simply attempting to raise awareness of this interconnectedness of all on this Planet. Teaching with out confrontation, stating opinions but with the openess that they are not absolutes.
This is the new path I have chosen. Thanks for sharing your story and I hope I possibly have stated something you can use. Don don@bridgingthegap.org
Donald Reck <don@bridgingthegap.org >
Kansas City, MO USA - Friday, December 12, 1997 at 12:04:34 (PST)
(snip)
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #29
74. The Nazi ideology
was transplanted DIRECTLY into the American system after WW2. High ranking members were imported, given new identities, and JOBS with Allen Dulles. I'm not exactly sure how South Africa fits in the mix, as I am lacking in real knowledge of how apartheid developed. The Dutch, Germans and British certainly are up to their colonial eyeballs in it. However, it seems to me the installation of Nazi operatives in the U.S. "intelligence" apparatus and the close financial ties (see: Prescott Bush, among others) would be a more direct tie. Perhaps someone else could comment on this.

Meanwhile the Germans look at developments in the U.S. with increasing HORROR. 30% believe the American government was involved in the destruction of the WTC. My VERY elderly neighbor says, "Um Geld, geht's ALLES." HE wants to know about the "put-options." What a spry old guy! ;-)
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #74
110. Here is some history on apartheid development in South Africa
It says it had more to do with the Dutch and British
http://www.white-history.com/hwr56iii.htm
A HISTORY OF THE WHITE RACE

Chapter 56 : The White Man's Burden-

South Africa and Rhodesia

APARTHEID AND THE END OF WHITE SOUTH AFRICA

Part one described the settlement of Southern Africa, the Great Trek into the interior of Africa, and the establishment of the Boer Republics of the Orange Free State and the South African Republic, also called the Transvaal.

Part two described the history of the independent Boer Republics and their crushing by the British Empire.

This section deals with the creation of Apartheid in South Africa and its ultimate, inevitable end - relying as it did upon Black labor over which a White minority tried to enforce social segregation.

THE 1913 Land Act DIVIDES THE LAND BETWEEN BLACK AND WHITE

In 1910, the Union of South Africa was created under British rule, out of the two former Boer Republics of the Orange Free State and the Transvaal, together with the already established British colonies of Natal and the Cape.

The new Parliament created as a result of the Union was dominated by a party led by former Boer war generals. In 1913, they turned their attention to the issue of the reserved Black areas, and, following the American example with the Amerinds, formally enshrined the right of Blacks in these tribal areas. This was the Land Act of 1913, which also had one rider: they prohibited Blacks from owning any land outside of these now formalized homelands.

The ruling party also had as its theme reconciliation between Boer and Brit. This attempt to create unity on racial grounds, trying to bridge the cultural/ethnic differences, led to the creation of a new generic term for all Whites living in the Union of South Africa: South Africans. The terminology Boer and Brit was dispensed with. The Dutch language had in the interim started to develop a form of its own, and became known as Afrikaans: and those who spoke it were called Afrikaners, no matter if they were originally Boers or Dutch speakers who lived in the British ruled Cape and Natal before the Anglo-Boer War.
(snip)
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #110
119. Very informative link!
Thanx, Nolabels!!!
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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
24. I'll be damned...
I didn't know DU had this many folks in it who got out of the matrix. ;-)

I've seen some of your posts before, but others of you, you're a much needed, and greatly welcomed surprise!

We can strategize and pontificate on policies and candidacies all day long, but the results will be nothing more than bandaid solutions to a problem that requires major surgery and long term treatment. And, the first step would be for the physician to "heal thyself".
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. I'm surprised this time too because I usually
catch all hell for saying this stuff. Maybe subconsciously, psychologically, the not finding weapons of mass destruction, the proof that Bush really is full of shit, is starting to sink in.
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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Either they've learned...
and are willing to read & listen or they've chosen to steer clear of the subject. Based on my experience, the same problem exists among progressives, as exists among neo-cons -- truths that threaten their reality are vociferously denied or ignored.

In an earlier post you said something like:

...people can really do harm since they're convinced they have escaped the bigotry that mars everyone else's vision, they feel free to do something really racist in complete innocence.


Great minds thing alike! MLK described them as the "moderates" who are more of an obstacle than the openly bigoted.
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Oh Its easy to deal with an open bigot.
And to be honest, I kind of appreciate that they don't play any games. I respect that. It's the ones who think they've pulled the wool over everyone's eyes who make me sick.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #28
77. Stealth racism is the WORST.
OK, here comes a L-O-N-G one.

Everything Old Seems New Again Or Is It? Recognizing Aversive Racism

Bradley Scott, MA

<1996, IDRA. The following article originally appeared in the IDRA Newsletter by the Intercultural Development Research Association. Every effort has been made to maintain the content in its original form. However, accompanying charts and graphs may not be provided here. To receive a copy of the original article by mail or fax, e-mail your request to IDRA. Permission to reproduce this article is granted provided the article is reprinted in its entirety and proper credit is given to IDRA and the author.>

It was in an October 1991 issue of Ebony magazine that I first became aware of a term called the new racism. In his article, "How to Survive the New Racism," Charles Whitaker described what some observers were calling the new attacks on the progress that had been made by African Americans. He said the new racism is different because its nature is more covert than traditional racism. Whitaker explained, "The use of incendiary code words, such as 'political correctness' and 'reverse discrimination,' has enabled the forces of bigotry to effectively dismantle the civil rights agenda while preserving the illusion of racial tolerance" (1991).

Although Whitaker's description helps to explain some of the open racial hostility and violence on school campuses throughout the region, it does not fully capture the nature of what seems to be occurring in schools: bigoted attitudes and prejudice; beliefs that one group is inferior to another thus justifying their inferior treatment; the rightness of whiteness; the arguable "genetic" bases of intelligence that supposedly prove the superiority of one race over another and that supposedly account for the "real" differences in achievement outcomes of some students when compared to others. These are all traditional trappings of racism and the discrimination it spawns.

The new racism is more than just the resurgence of racial tension, hostility and violence that is seen everywhere on public school and college campuses. It is more than just name calling, racial epithets, jokes, insensitive remarks and slurs that roll from people's mouths as easily as greetings. It is more than just denying people access to programs, activities and opportunities because of race and color. It is even more than just admitting that the over-representation of minorities in disciplinary actions, special education, alternative schools, and low-level dead-end courses or any other of the persistent barriers to excellence that occur in schools where minorities are concerned is just "one of those nuts that is tough to crack, but we're working on it."

While these examples are bad enough, they represent nothing more than the realities of racism that have historically existed. They are not new at all. They are resurfacing in public schools and colleges to many people's horror, surprise and amazement (after all, weren't these things settled in the 1960s and '70s? Not really). Coupled with a lack of resolution to the matters of prejudice, racism and discrimination are the four differences that appear today, according to H. Ehrlich, and are unique in U.S. history (1995):

1. "The public and news media are paying more attention to the conflicts ."

2. "The racial conflicts and ethnoviolence of today are more violent than in earlier times. Minorities are more likely to answer violence with violence which historically was not the case."

3. "A politically-sanctioned open opposition to the changing minority status occurred in the 1980s creating a reaction to the civil rights and civil liberties activities that emerged in the 1960s."

4. "Minorities, who are more empowered than in the past, are more willing to oppose openly and actively the prejudice, racism and discrimination which they encounter."

The new racism appears to go even further. John Dovidio, a professor of psychology at Colgate University, describes the modern racism as a subtle and very real bias for many White Americans (1993). This is called aversive racism. Dovidio defines aversive racism as a "subtle form of bias characteristic of many White Americans who possess strong egalitarian values and who believe that they are not prejudiceD...but many also possess negative racial feelings and beliefs that they are unaware of, or that they try to dissociate from their images of themselves as nonprejudiced."

The aversive (reluctant or unwilling) racist is in a struggle with a belief that all people are equal, but that some are still more equal than others. According to Dovidio, this leads to a troubling discrepancy between what people say and what they do. He also believes that this subtle bias helps to account significantly for the persistence of racism in US society and its institutions:

"Because White aversive racists consciously recognize and endorse egalitarian values...they will not discriminate against Blacks in situations in which discrimination would be obvious to others or themselves."

Discrimination will occur...when an aversive racist can justify or rationalize a negative response on the basis of some factor other than race (1993).

According to Dovidio, the aversive racist is characterized by the following five traits:

1. In contrast to the traditional racist, the aversive racist endorses fair and just treatment of all groups, at least in principle.

2. The aversive racist harbors negative feelings of discomfort toward other races and therefore avoids interracial interaction whenever possible.

3. When interracial contact is unavoidable, the aversive racist tries to disengage from interaction as quickly as possible.

4. When interracial contact cannot be avoided, the aversive racist adheres strictly to established rules and codes in these situations so as not to appear prejudiced.

5. When the aversive racist expresses negative feelings (thoughts, attitudes) about other races, he or she does so in ways that can be rationalized.

In response to a question such as, "Do you believe in education segregated by race?," the old racist would say, "Yes, mixing the races always causes more problems than it solves; they should go to school with their own kind," or something to that effect. The aversive racist might say: "Absolutely not! Children of different races should go to school together. I just think it's horrible, however, that those poor kids have to spend so much time riding buses to get to good schools. They should make their neighborhood schools better."

Likewise, an old-fashioned racist teacher or administrator might be paternalistic and patronizing to minority parents while interacting in a meeting with them because of his or her belief that the parents do not have the intellectual capacity or skills to handle school business. The aversive racist, on the other hand, might simply overwhelm the minority parents with school "stuff," not because he or she believes the parents are peers and can handle it, but to justify his or her belief about the parents' inability to support their children's school success.

The old fashion racist would read the book The Bell Curve (which seeks to prove that intelligence is determined by race) and respond, "See, Blacks are inferior to Whites, and look at what it is doing to our country!" An aversive racist would read the book and say, "While it's hard to dispute science and research, I think everyone deserves a chance to be all he or she can be." M. Singham comments that The Bell Curve was written for both the scientific and nonscientific communities and that in fact the nonscientific community is the main audience:

"Perhaps the main audience consists of the nonscientific community, especially those journalists and politicians who can be expected to seize upon the statements that support their attempts to further marginalize the poor and minorities. These people can now claim that "science" justifies the gutting of programs (1995)."

A leap that the aversive racist is making beyond the old fashion racist is that in research where respondents rate Blacks and Whites on negative scales of characteristics, Whites show no bias against Blacks. When they are rating Blacks and Whites on positive scales of characteristics, they rate Whites more positively. It is not that Blacks are worse, necessarily, it is just that Whites are better, they figure (Dovidio, 1993).

While these differences may seem too subtle to really matter, they could account for more of the persistent problems of racism in schools than one might first imagine. People's ways of thinking, their attitudes, do affect they way they perceive and behave. A teacher with such an aversive attitude could do a lot of damage to a group of minority children. On a personal level, a minority teacher could do a lot of damage to a group of majority children, if it would be tolerated by majority parents.

Systems also could harbor these distinctions in perceptions about minority students and how they treat them to the point of believing that minority students cannot excel, behave, persist or complete school, not because they are inferior to non-minority students, but because non-minority students just seem to have more of what it takes to be successful in schools.

It is quite possible that we, in education, need to be creating more candid dialogues about the area of teacher expectation and attitudes and the impact of those attitudes on teacher behavior including teacher-student interaction, classroom instruction, selection of methods and materials and, ultimately, student outcomes. It is quite possible that, while they no longer manifest the old-fashion racists ways of thinking, believing and behaving, many teachers are plagued by aversive racist characteristics and behave accordingly in their classrooms. The discussion could be well worth it, if it leads to new ways of dealing with new forms of prejudice, racism and discrimination through more focused staff development, administrative and systemic support for radical change, accountability for personal growth and development, and increased student achievement and other outcomes.

Resources

Dovidio, J. "The Subtlety of Racism," Training and Development (April 1993), pp. 51-57.

Ehrlich, H. "Prejudice and Ethnoviolence on Campus," Review (Winter 1995), 6(2).

Singham, M. "Race and Intelligence: What are the Issues?," Phi Delta Kappan (December 1995), pp. 271-278.

Whitaker, C. "How to Survive the New Racism," Ebony (October 1991), pp. 106 -110.

Bradley Scott is a senior education associate in the IDRA Division of Professional Development.

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beanball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
27. A great post
thanks for saying something that need to be said over and over until people understand what you are saying,to paraphrase a line of scripture"get knowledge and with all your getting get understanding"
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dudeness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
30. you said what I have been thinking for a long time
as former Australian PM Paul Keating said.."scratch an Australian and you find a racist underneath"..how is it that one human life is valued much more that another? why have the people of Afghanistan..Iraq ..Palestine become "unpeople"..deaths of thousands and thousands of these people do not even raise an eyebrow in the west (apart from forums such as this)..yet i can watch the "news" and a fucking dog trapped in a pipe receives more sympathy..there can only be one answer.."skin colour" and cultural intolerance..I am afraid our children will reap the rewards of this ignorance unless we change very quickly..
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. You noticed that thing we have about
animals, particularly dogs too. It's disgusting the way we fawn over our dogs, but talk about killing people as though they are baseball trading cards. How is this kind of dehumanization any different from what occurred in Germany. If we don't stop it, there will be another holocaust. Only this time it will be Arabs burned by bombs and chemicals.
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misanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #32
63. Maybe because...
...canines are nowhere nearly as full of self-pity, evil, and arrogance as humans. I would easily take a dog over most of the people I've met.

And while the West certainly has its problems with the way we treat animals, our Arabian brethren are no better than we are and actually worse in a lot of regards.
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #63
64. This is a good reason for killing them and stealing their oil.
They treat their dogs worse than we treat ours? Great point.
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misanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #64
66. Please point out...
...where that statement was made in my post. Your patella reflex is certainly working there, Skippy.
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #66
67. I can see clearly that my thread has upset you.
You feel the need to fight back don't you? Knock yourself out. I doubt you can come up with better bullshit than the "genetic freedom philosophical concept". That one's a real doozy.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #67
68. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
31. Dunno if it helps...but I enjoyed this thread
so I'll add it anyway.

If we were to reduce the world population to a village of 1000 inhabitants; then this would be our reality.

Gender:
Men 480
Woman 520

Places of Origin:

584 are Asians
124 are Africans
84 are Latin Americans
95 are Eastern/Western Europeans
55 are Russians
52 are North Americans
4 are Australians
2 are from New Zealand

Language

The people of our village would have a great deal of difficulty communicating. This list only accounts for half of our villagers. The other half are made up of; Bengali, Portuguese, Indonesian, Japanese, German, French, and 200 other languages.

165 speak Mandarin
86 speak English
83 speak Hindi
64 speak Spanish
58 speak Russian
37 speak Arabic
507 other languages

Religion
329 are Christians
178 are Moslems
167 are non-religious
132 are Hindus
62 are Buddhists
45 are atheists
3 are Jews
8 6are other religions
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
33. Bravo, Solomon!
Very astute and spot on!

I've been at Du for 2 1/2 years, but have become more and more discouraged at the seemingly increasing levels of both naivete' and willful ignorance. I rarely post anymore.

I've been reading many of your posts with much interest, however, and am now I moved to comment. I very much appreciate your voice here, it cheers me a great deal to encounter such a mind as yours gracing these pages.

sw
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. You are so nice. Thank you very much for that.
I reached a point where I stopped posting too. The times we're living in are extremely stressful and DU helps a lot. Sometimes you get up enough energy for a good rant.
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Well, your rant is awesome!
I'm feeling inspired and heartened -- perhaps I'll even gird up for a good rant of my own one of these days...

Anyway, thank you again for for speaking out so skillfully.

sw
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Sideways Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #33
57. Woman you're speaking my thoughts
Good to see you friend! Things have gone to hell for me here in the ME, my partner has some serious mental problems and I refuse to cover for him anymore. Peyton and I should be back in the States by the end of November. Send love and light SW I'm daily awash with tears.

Good words Solomon you are wise indeed. I have just spent the past 16 months living in the Sultanate of Oman and I am blessed to have lived among such a beautiful diverse community.

Omanis, Iraqis, Indians, Pakistanis, Kashmirians, folks from all over Europe, Australians. Beautiful place.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #57
80. MEINE FRESSE!!! MARY T!!! (((XOXOXO)))
Du bist auch dabei!!! Ausgezeichnet!!! :hi: :hi: :hi:
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #33
79. HALLO!!! Du Liebe SW!!!
:loveya: :hi: :loveya:
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KFC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
34. Don't include me in your delusion
I am white and I am not a racist.

But flog yourself all you want. It is pretty funny.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
KFC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. Ha
Yes, I forgot. Everyone is racist. In some cases it is just so subtle that it is impossible to identify.

Where can I buy a hair shirt?
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. See. Some people really do understand.
Edited on Sun Aug-31-03 10:24 PM by Solomon
I didn't want to say it and I wasn't going to since I wrote the thread. I'm grateful to you Maple for saying it for me. Only a determination to reserve the right to be racist could fuel such an intense desire to remain in a state of denial.

Welcome to the conversation KFC. I been waiting for you.
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KFC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. No problem
Funny rant, but since I am not a racist it does not apply to me.
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Alenne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. So what is your problem with what he said
A lot of white people responded to this rant and none of them thought they were being called a racist. Why do you?
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angee_is_mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. uncomfortable
Anytime we bring up race in this country people defenses go up. Why is it impossible to have a honest and open discussion on a topic that effects everyone?
It's just sad, it really is sad.
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #44
52. KFC's rejection of the premise because it's 'not him' is similar to
the way many nationalist Americans bristle when the government is criticised as if they themselves were being criticised. I think this is reinforced by professional sports which inculcates irrational loyalties and group think (mob behaviour)in the very young.
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angee_is_mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. uncomfortable
There is one topic in this country that makes people uncomfortable and that is race! It's like a woman in an abusive marriage. Everyone knows what is going on but everyone ignors it,because it is so distasteful and uncomfortable.
Why can't we have an honest and open discussion on something that affects everyone, without someone getting defensive? If you are not a racist the post wasn't directed at you , but maybe you know someone who is and could possibly enlightened them. Remember, the worst kind of racist is the one who doesn't realize that he is one.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #37
47. That explains a lot
Edited on Mon Sep-01-03 12:26 AM by Tinoire
It's good to be able to book-mark it.
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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #34
54. Very few people claim to be...
But there is that famous Shakespearean line, and it seems apropos here: Methinks thou dost protest too much!

Sane people, or at least people with an interest in appearing socially acceptable, don't ever claim to be racist. However, adamant denials could stem from a part of them that realizes they may benefit from racism, and have rarely, if ever, actively tried to thwart racism in their social circle, neighborhood, workplace or family.
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berry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #54
89. This is such an important point, Isome! Who benefits?
Individuals may claim to have never thought or said or did anything hurtful to persons of another race (and if true that's all to the good). But when you look at the incredibly unbalanced flow of benefits from the status quo in America, it's hard to argue that institutional racism is not a problem. We all have to recognize that the system is racist, that racism has been institutionalized so that most individuals feel helpless to change it. Whether individuals are comfortable with that or not, to deny that it exists is to be part of the problem. IMO.

Thanks for starting this great thread, Solomon!
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peace4all Donating Member (428 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
41. YES it is! & so is the war on drugs n-t
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
48. Excellent Solomon
You've summed it up succinctly in a heart-piercing way. I'm saving your rant. Thank you for putting so well in writing what so many people throughout the world already know.

Racism is an ugly thing. Denial is even worse.

Thank you and Peace
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #48
82. Tinoire, it's the DENIAL
That is absolutely CRAZY-MAKING. It is death-dealing. Last year I was forced to cut off 3 close (or so I thought) ex-pat friends of nearly a decade, when an obvious American dyed-in-the-wool-noteven-subtle-at-the-stealth-bit racist "joined" our circle. THEY CIRCLED THE WAGONS. The betrayal was DEVASTATING. It was SO OBVIOUS and each one went into denial. With the closest one (the mother of my beloved "godson") I tried to turn over all the cards on the table. Even seeing my "roxal flush," she DENIED, DENIED, DENIED.

Heart-piercing does not even begin to describe it...
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #82
112. Yes - I know exactly what you mean
Sometimes I really wish we were all blind. I'd give up looking at flowers and the sun if we could just see each other as people and not see race, color, ethnicity, or religion. Some are good, some are bad- it's always like that no matter what group... What do we need to do to make people see that?

Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...


I'm so sorry you had to go through that :( What a betrayal... First the betrayal of that person violating your circle and then the betrayal of your friends... How about heart-pierced? Eternally... Because the wound never really heals...

When I was 18 some man burned a cross in my front yard because his son was in love with me. Flew down all the way from Missouri to Fla to do it too- broke my boy-friend's arm, confiscated his car keys and planted that cross in our front yard...

Imagine that. So much hate... And we'd never even spoken nor seen each other in person. All this because his wife showed him my picture and I guess the thought of too much colored blood in his grand-children's veins set him off.

And I'm sure the people who know him would say he's a nice man; they'd probably vouch he wasn't a racist either. Go figure :shrug:
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 12:16 AM
Response to Original message
49. Lots of fish and poi for the wise person who enlightened us once more
Thank you a wonderful thread,

Well said

Well Done.

You rock man.
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Ein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 12:18 AM
Response to Original message
50. I don't think its a race war.
As much as it is a perpetual war that justifies cutting civil liberties and a bloated defense budget, just like the Cold War.
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #50
51. A culture/ race war
Hell we should be bombing England, they are using up some of petrol we will needing later on, that stuff has got to last us for while so lets stop them. BP and Fina need to shut down immediately. The nerve of them people, distributing products to them old Europeans.

Btw, this is about oil and who has the say on who gets to use it, don't try to fool yourself, we know better
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laconicsax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 02:32 AM
Response to Original message
53. Fuck yeah.
You rock hardcore.
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loyalsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 04:13 AM
Response to Original message
55. Well said and I believe very true
Sometimes it's the little things people say that let you know that they turn a blind eye\subtly approve it. They are the people who applaud the token appointments in the * admin. I have a friend who actually called them "liberal" appointments. Whatever that means. "Liberal appointments of believers in conservative ideology?"
The idea of appointing non-whites to high positions is still foreign enough that he thinks its brave and unusual, as opposed to something we should just expect. Ultimately though, it's acceptable to him if it doesn't happen, and he gives his stamp of approval to that unconcious racism.
Other times, it's blatent. I heard a pure xenophobe come out with it one day. People from different races shouldn't day, she said. I asked her, point blank, "what other possible reason could you have besides not wanting to pollute your gene pool?" At first she couldn't answer me. She actually said "I don't know." Then finally came up with "mixing "cultures" is hard for the children."
As long as people believe that there is a spiritual presense on their side, they believe they are somehow divinely preferred. Unfortunately, many Americans have been convinced that they are divinely preferred because they aren't hungry and have lots of things. There are people in this country who don't what does that say about them, and what are the common demographics?
There was a book written many years ago called "A Culture of Narcissism." I have only read parts of it, but in a sense when you look at the sense of entitlement the US has claimed, it was only fitting and a matter of time before we had a president with a Narcissitic Personality Disorder.
It's the people who are powerful yet in the minority who feel threatened, jealous, grandiose, and have this pathological sense of entitlement. As whites who do have a sense of racial superiority, have faded into the minority, it was bound to happen.

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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #55
56. Token appointments
provide great cover for racism. You can support as many racist policies as you want if you've hired a token minority. Then your supporters crow about how you "appointed more blacks to high levels than any democrats; you couldn't possibly be racist."

Of course "blackness" and "whiteness" are also states of mind, but that's another lesson for another day. :smoke:
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misanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #56
65. WRONG...
..."blackness" and "whiteness" are ONLY states of mind. Race is purely an invention of the human imagination.
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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #65
92. blackness & whiteness are only states of mind...
Edited on Mon Sep-01-03 04:14 PM by Isome
Errr, uhhh yeah. Skin color (or other physical characteristics) isn't real and the wearers of that skin are never stigmatized (or imbued) with preconceived ideas about intellect or overall worth.

The relatively recent findings of the scientific community about the variations of DNA within groups doesn't negate the destructive attitudes and behaviors directed towards any one group.
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 08:24 AM
Response to Original message
58. If you got time, go look at
http://democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az...

for an example of the effort made to disguise fear of white genetic annihilation. I repeat, there is nothing wrong with people expressing this fear, its natural and we need to talk about it. Its how one reacts to the fear that's important.

The fellow here goes through all manner of torture - "genetic freedom philosophical concept", in attempt to spin the fear into something "respectable". Too bad Native Americans had no one around saying, "but what about the genetic freedom philosophical concept?"

Maybe right now we should apply the "genetic freedom philosophical concept" to the Arabs.
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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #58
109. Good grief!
I looked at both of the threads; one of them is locked by the way. He sounds like a poster from another site. I posted a sample of it in the open thread. It's the 'ol "race is an illusion so we should all return to the days of segregation without guilt" ploy. His ideology mate that I referred to uses the same one.

When you encounter some people, all you can do is shake your head and keep moving, because there's really nothing to see.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #58
114. Good grief is so mild!
The second one was really a work of art! DUers came to the rescue as always, thank God!

What would possess someone to come here and post racist swill?
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Kbowe Donating Member (272 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 08:28 AM
Response to Original message
59. HOW TRUE!!!
eom
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Sick of Bullshit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 08:57 AM
Response to Original message
61. I've often thought about how there's always been a convenient
non-white foreign enemy. First it was the Indians, interspersed with the Mexicans, then as the Indians were finally being subdued we moved on to the yellow peril (Japanese and Chinese), then after we subdued Japan the boogeyman became the Communists (including the Chinese, who switched from yellow to red), then once the Commies were under control, these "Ayrab terrorists" conveniently enter the vacuum.
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #61
62. Whichever non-white has the resources we covet at the time
are in for hell. That's the bottom line. First we demonize them. Then we rip 'em off. And when they complain or fight back, it becomes justification to just kill them off. "The stupid bastards don't appreciate what we're doing for them."
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
69. Outmoded thinking
I must say your mindset is stuck in the 50's. Its not about race anymore, indeed, the very concept is becoming irrelevant because of the intermarriage you mention. The ruling elite doesn't give a shit about the color of your skin, what they care about is what you believe. If you believe in the status quo then you are welcome, if you want to see revolutionary change you are not. Do white people fear Tiger Woods? Michael Jordan? Colin Powell? JC Watts? No. They don't fear these people because these people have embraced the status quo and become part of it.

Its not about what race you are, its about the ideas that you hold.
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #69
70. Uh. Yeah right. 1950's. That;s cute.
Your thinking is outmoded. Pointing to blacks with mercedes' is an age-old trick to prove race has nothing to do with it. Precisely my point about the use of non-whites in the service of white supremacy. Confuses you doesn't it? Doesn't confuse non-whites.

I never heard anyone in the 1950's admit that racism was due to fear of genetic annihilation. Back then it was all, non-whites are inferior and we don't want to eat with them. If we can just admit to the fear, then we will have made a start.

I love your statement that its the ideas you hold that count. That's rich. What do you do to people who don't hold the same ideas, say, like Iraqis for example.
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #70
73. Response
What do you do to people who don't hold the same ideas, say, like Iraqis for example.

You crush them.

Look I don't disagree with you that the current holders of power are out to crush those that disagree with them--I simply disagree with the notion that the basis for opposition is race. How else can you explain the fact that many "black" people are more than welcome into the elite power club?
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #73
78. How many blacks are let into the elite power clubs?
How do I explain it? It serves the cause of white supremacy to let a few blacks appear as though they are part of the power structure. Maintains the illusion and is particularly effective in confusing poor whites so that there will be no linking up. That's only one explanation.

Secondly, you and I probably have a slightly different definition of "power elite." To me the "power elite" are the magnates behind the politicians, not the politicians and civil servants themselves.
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #78
93. I don't know
Given that you are the one that is asserting that race is the motivator for their behavior, I think that's a fact that you should know. I think you need to wake up to the fact the the power elite have only one motivation: Money. Race, religion and everything else are mere sideshows. Their true motivation comes from getting money and the power it brings. If marketing "rebellious" black hip-hop artists means massive amounts of money, that's what they will do. Race is irrelevant. Money is their only God.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #69
71. Try owning a house in Beverly Hills while black
and going out say... JOGGING!!!
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #71
76. Actually
Beverly Hills is only 85% white. True, that's out of sync with the general population, but its not like they don't allow non-whites to live there.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #76
83. Ah, so "they" "allow them" to live there
But should "them" go jogging in the neighborhood "them" may run the risk of being slammed to the pavement and interrogated about what the hell "them" doing in "THESE" parts. :eyes:
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #83
87. I Simply Refuse To Believe
that folks are routinely beaten for jogging while black in affluent neighborhoods.


Racism still exists but it is much more nuanced and in some ways more insideous.

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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #87
91. THAT is the point, my dearest!!!
It's the REFUSAL TO BELIEVE what we're telling you. How many times have I heard, "OH Karenina, you're just SOOO sensitive." Well, FUCK YEAH, I AM!!! (please don't be offended by my familiar referral- you ENGAGED and thereby merit the distinction- OR my "diacritical" language! ;-) ) When I say THIS happened and it HURT, I'm told "It didn't happen that way. or You misunderstood. or It didn't REALLY hurt. or YOU'RE making a mountain out of a molehill! or in the worst case scenario, Who do you think THEY are going to believe?" Then <<I>> get to clean my blood from the floor and tell everyone that everything is fine. And I sure as hell better do so to maintain my position the status quo. That is, IF i want to survive in this system. Thanx for asking! :hi:
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #91
94. It not a refusal to believe you
Its refusal to believe you without proof. If you had provided evidence that what you said is actually true and we still disputed you, then you would have a gripe. However, it appears that you want us to simply believe everything you say without proof. If that is what you expect, expect to be disappointed. A lot.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #94
97. That's exactly the stealth racism trip.
There is no information or "proof" I could provide that you would accept as accurate, even if it were to be corroborated by THOUSANDS. That's the nature of the beast.
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #97
98. Sure there is
There is no information or "proof" I could provide that you would accept as accurate,

Yes you can. Simply come up with a newspaper article describing a black person that went jogging in Beverly Hills and was slammed to the pavement and interrogated about what the hell "them" doing in "THESE" parts. (from your post #83). If what you said is true, it shouldn't be hard to come up with one little newspaper clipping, should it?
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #98
100. Also, ich verstehe
You want me to PROVE that egregious racist incidents happen in America on a regular basis and that I, my family and my acquaintances have been subjected to them. You want their identities and proof of residence. Surely if I were telling the truth the local papers would have recorded it. As for the incident in question I will remain silent. However, SURELY you have heard of Al Joyner's DWB encounter with the LAPD. I invite you to look at it as a template for those who are not in the public eye.
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #100
101. Let me help you
I think you were looking for something like this:

http://jneedlel.home.mindspring.com/BLACK1.HTM

Now that wasn't so hard, was it? Shame I had to do it for you...
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #101
103. My goodness, Thank you dear
Aren't you the tech-head. Kudos! I hang my head in shame knowing I could never hope to rise to your superior level! Me be jes' a little ol' lady who bin roun' hyeah awhile...
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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #98
104. It would be hard.
I was a teenager in the late 70's and early 80's. There wasn't a month that went by without a newsstory on television, in a magazine, or in the newspaper that chronicled a civil rights lawsuit, or formally filed complaint of police brutality, illegal stops, etc. I remember, too, the former California police officer who documented the endemic racism, within the LAPD, with a camcorder. He captured frightening footage of the police stopping him and shoving his head through a plateglass window. With the passage of time, and the subsequent loss of details down the memory hole, it is not easy.

Even relaying personal experiences aren't accepted by those who decide the experiences and perspectives of other people lack veracity.
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Arkady Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #87
124. I Simply Refuse To Believe
I think I agree. A cop who assaulted or beat a black doctor or lawyer out jogging in his own neighborhood would quickly find himself without a job and the city would be facing a massive lawsuit.

Racism is more subtle these days and, in some ways, has found itself on the left side of the political spectrum, too.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #76
84. Ah, so "they" "allow them" to live there
Edited on Mon Sep-01-03 01:22 PM by Karenina
But should "them" go jogging in the neighborhood "them" may run the risk of being slammed to the pavement and interrogated about what the hell "them" doing in "THESE" parts. :eyes:

Yeah, maybe I need to let this "dupe" remain to make the point. DWB anyone? We could start there.

"Its not about race anymore, indeed, the very concept is becoming irrelevant because of the intermarriage you mention."

The "concept" has ALWAYS been irrelevant. However I am always entertained, even if horrified, by how some in the "dominant" culture use that argument to disguise their own biases. If you are not involved in an "intermarriage" you have NO IDEA what the dynamics of such a situation are.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #76
85. Dupe
Edited on Mon Sep-01-03 01:11 PM by Karenina
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sushi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #69
106. Tiger Woods, etc.
are accepted because they are very successful in what they do. When one is an expert at something one is accepted. Are you Dutch? Isn't there a Dutch saying with (I think) "kunst" and "gunst?" The first breeds the second - something like that?
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uptohere Donating Member (603 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
81. odd, its not the arabs in charge of the oil who are pissed
its the arabs without oil.

Perhaps they would be better served directing their wrath at their "brothers" who won't share their oil profits.

Fact is I think there really is a case to be made for this bwing a culture clash. They hate the west for it's decadence. It brings into sharp relief the crappy existance that Islam insists upon for it's followers. Its no wonder that arabs prefer a western lifestyle over the oppressive one expoused by the mullahs, ayatollas and imams.

The bottom line is this, they want the sort of power the want (brutal treatment of women, no fun and totalitarian in the extreme) and have it in a 14th century setting. Its a difficult, at best, model to make work. THey now have to rely on creating a false sense of urgency to try and keep it together.

No muslim true to his faith can support whats going on. Eventually this will burn out, there is no true support for it and reason will ultimately prevail.
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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #81
96. Beyond the mere "decadence" of Western culture...
There is also the itty bitty matter of interference with the governments and natural boundaries of sovereign nations.

The CIA joined with M16 to have Mosadec killed. He nationalized the oil after the overthrowing the British -- who refused to allow the Iranians to even participate in the profits or production of their nation's greatest natural resource. In the end, it was the U.S. that installed the Shah, and later offered him asylum when his brutality was too much for the people to bear.

Strong support from the US, coupled with the monied Jewish settlers means Israel has little reason to negotiate during peace talks with Palestine.

Throughout the world we've stuck our grubby mitts in the 'self-rule pie' of other countries. Though we Americans are frequently unaware of the actions of our government, most other countries are aware and rightfully resent it.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #96
99. It goes back to myths.
America is the "good guy." MEINE FICKEN FRESSE! SCHWARTZE SCHWNZE! (Do forgive me, Solomon) Everybody wants to be American. JEWISH CONSPIRACY.
Arab villians- Bluto as the Sheik of Araby, but Popeye got his spinach! WE are different and BETTER than THEY. :eyes: :silly: :eyes: :crazy: :eyes: :think: :think: :think:
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Spentastic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 06:57 AM
Response to Reply #81
118. OBL
He got plenty oil money and he loves the Western lifestyle.

It's constricyed thinking like yours that is getting troops killed. Religion and reason don't easily meet. Why should reason win out?
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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
86. Solomon -- a brilliant post. Hit the nail on the head
and until we stop kidding ourselves, we cannot survive in peace, safety and prosperity.

Somehow you managed to express this critically important concept in a way that didn't trigger the normal defensive flames. I'll have to print this off and learn from it.

Wonderful essay, worth distribution.

Bev
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #86
88. Hi Bev! I Miss You
Know you been hard at work on bbv. You just might be the most important unsung hero of 2004 because of your work. You got my vote anyway.

Yes. I am surprised too at the lack of flame this time. It's a hard, raw subject, and I put on my helmet and flack jacket but I didn't need them.

Keep on truckin'
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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #88
107. Hi back! I'm glad this thread is parking itself on page one
It's so true. Check out this hidden racism, just one among many:

I'm having breakfast with my parents, a pair of white Methodists who love my black hubby, my Asian-white mixed race kids, my nephew's black wife, my sister's arab boyfriend, my brother's jewish partner, my black stepkids, and everyone else that comes down the pike in our very diverse family.

We were talking about, of course, voting machines. I was talking about the one thing we've been beating our heads against the wall on for seven weeks now, getting an academic with the guts to come forward publicly on the discovery of the Windows hack (all the academics are scared of Microsoft, it seems). I suggested going outside the U.S. and getting computer guys from other countries.

We discussed which ones would carry the most credibility with the U.S. mainstream press, under the theory that we'd line up a trio of computer scientists, each from a different country.

Here's what came out with the credibility votes:

England
Australia
Canada
New Zealand
Germany

Now isn't that strange? How about:
India
Middle East
China

Excuse me, but walk into any high tech company and WHERE do you see top computer scientists coming from?

But they are right. The mainstream press would be more likely to offer credibility to scientists from a trio of countries in the top group than the bottom -- yet who, really, has the most expertise?

Think about it.

Bev
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #86
95. Bev, you are a TRUE PATRIOT!!!
You are in my heart and prayers DAILY! We MUST understand how the software works. The hardware is clear. It's the software to which we must pay close attention, as IT has the ability to attenuate the hard-wiring. You GO, Girl!

Forgive me, Solomon for "going there" but it IS the metaphor. We dispel the darkness with LIGHT!

(Oh SHIT! DID I JUST USE A RACIST REFERENCE???? EEEEEEKKK!!! Karenina donning gelbes Kopftuch... "See my long, luxurious blond hair?")
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smallprint Donating Member (778 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
102. right on right on solomon

i agree with everything you wrote. posts like this on DU are few and far between, unfortunately. but no more!! got to wake people up!!

i would add that the war on "terrorism" has been fought here, in this country, on its own poor brown people, under the guise of the "war on drugs"... different name, same ole shit...


peace,

smallprint
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #102
108. I saw Bush say today that
"the war against terrorism goes on" and I winced at the thought that it will never end. If you thought the war on drugs was bad, this one takes the cake. It's an excuse to invade every non-white country in the world.
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sushi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 08:20 PM
Response to Original message
105. Excellent post!
I wish the conservatives could read this! They feel threatened and can't accept the fact that the world is changing. They're already outnumbered and it's only a matter of time the 'enemy' will catch up in other areas.
For the US to insist that other countries can't have WMD is arrogant and ridiculous. I say either everybody can have them or nobody can, and those that have them must destroy them.

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MrPrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
111. Good To See The Issue Addressed...
Not sure I agree wholeheartedly, but there does seem to be an element of what we might call racism, especially regarding developments in the middle east.

Rarely will you find, even white liberals, contend that say the oil of Iraq or Palestine are simply YET again 'white folks stealing brown folks land'

There is no problem recognizing it in a historical context, but never as a 'current event' fact

Somehow it seems to be a special case with lots of explanation required...
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berry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 12:19 AM
Response to Original message
113. Coincidentally, there was a great panel from the Harlem Book Festival
on this afternoon. I didn't realize until just now that it is being rebroadcast starting in a few minutes. It first aired on 7-19-03. There are several good panels, but the one with Ron Walters, Ishmael Reed and Walter Mosley brought up a lot of the same questions you raised in this thread. It was amazing. Try to catch it (C-span2 starting in about 10 minutes--about 1:30am ET Tues).

Oh, and Mosley has a book out or coming out soon called "White Nationalism, Black Interest(s?)".
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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 06:47 AM
Response to Reply #113
116. Aha!
I saw that one! It was exciting to hear the issues I'm concerned about discussed, again, by other people. It allows me to relax a little bit to realize that I'm not alone, so all is not lost.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
121. I find myself returning to re-read this thread again and again.
I think that I fear its truth.
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #121
123. What a beautiful thing to say.
Don't care if people agree or disagree, if I can get people to think.

And to Isome. You are definitely not alone. You can't imagine the relief I felt when I found DU. That's what I felt. Good to know that I'm not alone.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
125. Very interesting perspective, Solomon
And true on many (but not all) levels.

Think about this facet...around a decade ago, irrevocable trneds showed that Amerika would not be a "white" nation by 2020 or so, in terms of pure numbers.

Considering, that at the height of the Old American Republic in the 70s and 80s, where for a brief time it seemed that the franchise was extended to mostly everyone, this had to be taken away again, lest the demoographics overwhelm the Busheviks and drown them in a sea of color.

(I don't know that either course is best, to me the only different path, that hasn't been tried before, would be a true polyglot democratic-republic...but it may well be that humans as a species are so flawed that our own passions and limitation would keep us from every achieving this state)

So, it has become abundantly clear on a number of levels that our democratic-republic had to be stopped, before it reached the evolution of it's promise (as that old George Washington quote about America being the foremost in liberality and extending right and liberties to all peoples).

Which it is.

I also think that, within 50 years when Civil War 2 breaks out, Corporate TV Pravda (I shudder to think what that might look like) will trumpet it as a Race War.
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #125
127. I don't know about the Civil War 2 but I think the undeclared ......
Race War started several millennia ago. We are just the descendants of the survivors so far that have managed to live long enough. Familiarity (root word family) breeds contempt, but knowing oneself is the ultimate form of psychological masochism.

This little tidbit here seems rather strange, but I guess a right hand could shake a left hand, if one stood on their head.



http://www.nowarblog.org/archives/000708.html
Tuesday | February 04, 2003
Imperialism Needs Bigotry Watch
On January 31, Dennis Miller's reference to Kim Jong Il as a "zipperhead" passed without comment on Chris Matthews' "Hardball" show. The transcript is here.

I am not on some crusade to reform speech. I like a wicked joke more than the next person, if it's really funny. Of course there are limits. But you can hardly blame an anti-war activist for noting the connection between racist speech and imperial designs. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to amplify a connection like that.

I suspect that any conflict resulting in U.S. casualties creates a pressure cooker for bigotry in which the authorities become complicit. Is it possible that the U.S. is on the verge of alienating not merely Arabs and Muslims, but also Asians? Even to a dedicated non-interventionist, aside from the obvious moral aspect, racism cannot be good for the national interest.


max | February 4, 2003 11:02 AM | TrackBack

Comments
Purely linguistic curiosity: what is "zipperhead" supposed to mean? I never heard it before (non anglais, senor!), where does it come from..?

Posted by distraction on February 4, 2003 11:15 AM
"zipperhead" is a slur for asians. I'm not sure if it's for a particular asian nationality or not. No clue here on where the word originates.

Posted by Jim M on February 4, 2003 12:11 PM
This doesn't really surprise me - Dennis Miller has really been showing his true colors since 9/11. "Zipperheads", "Camel Jockey's" overt endorsement of racial profiling, and lots of various Islamaphobic commentary. He's a bigot, its just that simple. Maybe not against all people of color, but certainly against most foreigners.

But racism is all the rage nowadays, so maybe Miller's just feigning bigotry for the ratings. Either way though, he's certainly part of the problem.

Posted by John on February 4, 2003 02:32 PM
Racism is all the rage. Cynthia Mc Kinneys father blames her election loss on the J-E-W-S. Indymedia activists call a five year old girl who was murdered by Palestinian terrorists a future land thief The British newspaper the Independent publishes a cartoon of Sharon eating babies.

Anti-american bigotry is rampant Guardian writer Matthew Engel regularly accuses Americans of being a bunch of ignorant fatties which reminds me - Michael Moore recently said that if the hijackers had taken over a plane filled with black men, those killers, with their puny bodies and unimpressive small knives, would have been crushed by the dudes

So if theres a connection between racist speech and imperial designs, when are these notable leftists planning to take over the world?


Posted by mary on February 4, 2003 02:55 PM
(snip)
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #127
128. Contempt
is the operative word. The *$$$bottom line$$$ is contempt for ALL of us who are not members of their clique. We need to get CLEAR this mawnin' y'all.
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carolinayellowdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
129. Religious war is scarier to me
Hey,

Without disputing your thesis, I would suggest that the hatred between Christian and Muslim -- and the feeling on both sides that a calamitous religious war is somehow fated and God's will-- burns hotter than any racial animosity. It operates within racial categories as much as if not more than across racial lines. Bosnian Serbs vs. Bosnian Muslims in Europe; Indonesian Muslims vs. Christians in Asia; Nigeria and Ethiopia, hotbeds of Christian/Muslim hatred in subsaharan Africa. Hindus are no slouches when it comes to religious hatreds either.

Race is an illusion genetically speaking, and even as an illusion consists infinite gradations of brown, pink, and yellow. The boundary between Christian and Muslim is clearly drawn and sharply dichotomous. Hence more likely to result in global warfare than something as amorphous as white vs. nonwhite.

My take,

CYD
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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #129
130. Despite the illusion of race...
In my view the religious divide between Christians & Muslims is fueled by racial animosity.

After 9/11 it was all many pundits (with the exception of the Coulter crowd) could do to keep from saying that anyone who isn't white is a threat to white people. Even Bill Mahr thought he was being plainspoken and oh' so sensible when he derided security checks at airports because white people are also singled out for extra scrutiny. Then, of course, there were the assaults on Pakistanis, Indians, or others who didn't fit the blonde-haired, blue-eyed mold of Americanism. Despite the perpetrators rush to punishment, they knew that a complexion darker than their own was as good an indicator as any that the victims of their crimes were the real victimizers.

Were it not for contempt of those who look different undergirding the fear of more terrorist attacks, the absurd belief that people with a "swarthy" complexion are the only individuals posing a threat to law abiding Americans wouldn't have made it out of the 'academy of the bigots' and onto our television screens, or into our daily newspapers.
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Kbowe Donating Member (272 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 09:19 AM
Response to Original message
131. Keep it real!
eom
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #131
132. Denial
One comment about denial.

For atocities to go on you need a few things.

A culture to "normalize" it and allow it to occur.
A soul stinging sense of Shame and insecurity.
and no way to speak of an unspeakable horror.

All bullies control freaks authoritarians and raciists get aweay with what they do because they think they can.

When you silence yourself because of excuses like"why bother" or I'll lose my job,home,freinds ect.Bigots feel safe.
When you don't tell your story because you feel it is not worth telling and you let self-serving critics cry for"evidence" before they'll dare listen,because experincethey have not experinced is not good enough"proof" for those who lack empathy..and you fall silent,People can deny.

When you are convinced you should be ashamed of your human sensitivities,human vunerabilities,scars,wounds, and your tender heartedness and scathing integrity...and you are too afraid to shatter the collective denial and the status quo of bigots and exploiters that keeps the lies alive and the games'normal'Bigots can rationalize what they do...When each person who tells thier story,tells it,they add thier voice to a deafing roar of the unspeakable truth now speaking.
And Bigots fear the light of day shining into the evil inside them they keep alive.

I hope what people do and have done in the persuit of racial 'purity', power,money,self-gratification, and authoritarianism will not be forgotten.

I hope the truth of how bigotry feels will have touched too many souls with it's wounding barbs to pretend it ain't so anymore. Since less and less people are white..the truth will out because the demographics are changing! I just hope the Earth still remains after all is said and can support life..long enough to exist without the bigots,bullies,thieves,liars,abusers,exploiters and haters in control like they have been for a long time.
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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-04-03 03:14 AM
Response to Reply #132
133. When you don't tell your story ...
Too true!

There comes a time when you feel worn out by the accusation that any expression of discontent is tantamount to "whining", or "blaming someone else" for your "failures" (as if there aren't a plethora of individuals who work twice as hard to get half as far in life and are the most vocal champions of social justice). If you allow yourself to succumb to that self-serving accusation, the next thing you know you'll find yourself going along to get along, or as MLK said, "scratching when you don't itch, and laughing when you're not tickled." In the meantime, nothing is changing! Not for you, and not for anyone else who chooses the path of least resistance.

The trick is to remember that blaming the victim and launching an offense as a defense are lazy cons that have been perpetrated on scapegoats, of every stripe, since the beginning of time.
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