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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 06:48 PM
Original message
URGENT - NEED DU's HELP TO BUST AMERICAN FEDERATION FOR SENIOR CITIZENS
My friends,

Yesterday, my 83-year old mother received a letter from an organization called American Federation of Senior Citizens (AFSC), scaring her about her future social security benefits. To quickly summarize, it's a very scary 4 page letter, that blasts liberals and praises conservatives, and asks her to sign the enclosed "Social Security Preservation Card" and then on the last page urges her to donate money and mail them back the signed card, so that the AFSC can work with conservative leadership in Congress to preserve and protect her social security. It mentions Bush several times, and the bottom line is this organization lobbies in support of social security savings accounts! The "honorary chairman" is Marvin Mondres, their address for sending in the signed card is PO Box 97181 Washington DC, 20090-7181, and I found a phone number for them in Virginia - 703-548-1708.

I have been researching them the last hour, and so far I found out some very interesting things:

1. They are listed as a charitable organization in (at least) Missouri, Tennessee and Kentucky.

2. They are part og the HSA Coalition (Health Savings Accounts) along with the Christian Coalition and other right wing entities, which advetises itself as a coalition of non-profit organizations.

I always thought charitable organizations, which are exempt from paying taxes, had to be non-partisian. Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that was the law.

This organization is clearly scaring seniors into sending in donations, which at the bottom of page 1 says are not tax-deductible, in order to further the right wing agenda - in this case, social security savings accounts.

I do not have a scanner, but if someone with the ability to post the entire letter will email me at sluggojd@netzero.com or post their fax number, I can go to Kinkos and fax the pages, so that someone else can scan them and post them.

I urge DU members to help me expose these crooks.

Thank you,

John Dean
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salvorhardin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
1. Have you seen this article in the SF Gate?
Edited on Sat Oct-16-04 07:04 PM by salvorhardin
The Fear Merchants
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/examiner/a/...

It looks like these people have been peddling their fear since at least 1998.



<snip>
OAKLAND - Every day, the letters arrive by the fistful in Faye Shelby's mailbox.

One warns that her Social Security is in jeopardy. Another worries that Medicare soon will collapse. Yet another says, "You won't believe what Bill Clinton has in store for Washington."

In one four-month period last year, Shelby was besieged by 700 mailings, some marked "Urgent!" "PERSONAL" or "Jury Duty Notice." All of them aimed at one thing: a piece of her checkbook.
</snip>


<snip>
Moritz Ridenour is unapologetic about the mailings.

"We assume most people are capable of taking care of themselves, and if there is something they have a desire about, they will let us know," she said.

The appeals often are packaged with "open me" gimmicks:

*A delivery marked "EXPRESS" is fourth-class bulk mail from the American Federation of Senior Citizens.

*An envelope that says Jury Duty Notice is a pitch from the Coalition of Politically Active Christians.

*Another with what appears to be a handwritten address is a computer-generated plea for money from the American Federation of Senior Citizens.
</snip>


<snip>
Right-wing radio connection <

But according to tax reports filed in 1995, the center, which sends out tip sheets to 1,200 radio talk show hosts twice a week offering a right-wing perspective on issues in Washington, spent more than 77 percent of the more than $2.3 million it collected on fund-raising. At the time, the organization had a staff of five, according to Moritz Ridenour.
</snip>
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Your article is from 1998...very "out of date." If you don't have a newer
link, I can't take your post seriously. It sounds more like you are "trolling," to try to implicate Dems in something that was taken care of, already. :shrug:
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salvorhardin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. I guess one knows they've
Edited on Sat Oct-16-04 09:44 PM by salvorhardin
finally arrived at DU when they're accused of trolling.

As I mentioned in my post, it looks like these people have been active for a long time -- at least since 1998.

That's the whole point of referencing an article from several years ago -- to indicate the time frame over which something has been occurring.

Also, the article mentions connections to right wing talk radio as well as Bob Dole.

The fnord that social security is in imminent danger of collapse is quite old and was initially started by Gingrich back in the early 1990s. As this article shows, there are organizations posing as charities that have been preying on this fnord for quite some time, including the one mentioned by the originator of the thread.

Geesh! If I had posted an article from 1974 to refute a swift boat lie, would you claim I'm trolling with that also!? :shrug:
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. One can't be too careful these days, but an article from 98...isn't there
anything newer on this? Do a Google search. People are really touchy here right now...

The subject is important but an update would be appreciated... :shrug:
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salvorhardin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. I googled but
Edited on Sat Oct-16-04 11:14 PM by salvorhardin
only got 2 whole pages of links, one of which was the article I referenced.

Most of the others were links showing that this group is a registered charity in some states.

The name "Marvin Mondres" and the term "Social Security Preservation Card" return 0 links.

Let's see if we can't kick this up a notch further.

The phone number (useing superpages.com) shows that they are located at 208 Patrick St., Alexandria, VA.

Other entities listed at that address include:

Christian Voice
208 North Patrick Street, Alexandria, VA 22314
(703) 548-1421

Jar-Mon Consultants
208 North Patrick Street, Alexandria, VA 22314
(703) 548-4904

US Cuba Foundation
208 North Patrick Street, Alexandria, VA 22314
(703) 548-4904

American Christian Cause
208 North Patrick Street, Alexandria, VA 22314
(703) 715-6523
(703) 548-1840

American Federation of Senior Citizen
208 North Patrick Street, Alexandria, VA 22314
(703) 715-6522

Pacific Asia Foundation
208 North Patrick Street, Alexandria, VA 22314
(703) 548-4906


Further googling on that street address reveals:
National Parents' Day Council
208 North Patrick Street
Alexandria, VA 22314
Phone: (703) 548-4904


So it would seem there are a lot of "interesting" organizations at that street address. Googling on the one that seems to stick out from the rest, "Jar-Mon Consultants" leads to this web page: http://www.seekgod.ca/cnp.ijk.htm

<snip>
Gary Jarmin - CNP 1984-85, 1988, 1996, 1998; president, Jar-Mon Consultants, Inc; Legislative Director, Christian Voice, a front for the Unification Church; Lobbyist and political consultant in Washington, D.C.; President of Jar-Mon Consultants, Inc., a firm specializing in political activism, election campaigns and foreign policy matters in East Asia; designed and directed registration drive in 1884 for American Coalition for Traditional Values; Chaired Christians for Reagan campaign in 1980 and 1984;
</snip>


Ah! Now we're getting somewhere. There would also seem to be a connection to the Moonies.

Aw man! It gets wierder! Googling "Gary Jarmin" brings us here: http://www.iapprovethismessiah.com/2004/08/jarmin-warne...

Where we have our man involved in the coronation of Moon in Washington earlier this year. He is also listed on that page as the liaison for the Washington Times Foundation and...
<snip>

Above: Gary Jarmin, liaison for the Washington Times Foundation. According to the Washington City Paper, Jarmin was also involved in the "Parent's Day" campaign fooling Bill Clinton into recognizing Moon as the True Parent.
</snip>


Gary Jarmin also leads us to The Seniors Center at http://www.theseniorscenter.com/background.html where we also learn...
<snip>
Well-respected as a political commentator, Mr. Jarmin has made numerous appearances on radio and television, including CNN, Good Morning America, 20/20, ABC, CBS and NBC news, and has been quoted by hundreds of major news publications.
</snip>
The other organization on that page that sticks out like a sore thumb is the US Cuba Foundation and doing a little googling we find at http://cubacontact.fiu.edu/organizationnames.asp that...
<snip>
U.S.-Cuba Foundation

To build constituency within G.O.P. and Republican members of congress, including staff, to support lifting of the trade embargo. Organize fact-finding visits to Cuba for Congressional members/staff. Primary supporter of National Bipartisan Commission on Cuba.
</snip>

...and, suprise, surprise, our friend Gary Jarmin is listed on this page http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y00/jun00/02e16.htm as...
<snip>
Says Gary Jarmin, a longtime conservative who now runs the US-Cuba Foundation, a group that favors lifting the embargo, "For the first time in forty years, Republican members feel the time has come to break ranks with their colleagues."
</snip>


Sorry about the poor formatting. It's too late for me and I'm too fried. Basically though, it looks like every organization at this address is Gary Jarmin and being operated as a front for the Moonies.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. This looks really interesting...All at the same address... it's too much
of a coincidence..and creepy.

I'll give this a kick...maybe something can get going on this thread tomorrow. It's too late to do much tonight..

Sorry I gave you a hard time about the earlier post. But, look what's turned up. :eyes:

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salvorhardin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. No problem.
I'm cranky tonight anyway. :-)

Holy crap. Can you believe it? The Moonies never fail to amaze me.
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Thanks for the help everyone - and moonies = Bush
A link to the Moonies is a link to Bush. I can scan this Monday morning at work and email it to anyone who can post it here.

John
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #9
19. Jackpot - links to Moon and all sorts of people
Google search on American Christian Cause reveals lots of great info on the Moonies and these people:

http://rightweb.irc-online.org/groupwatch/afc.php

Under PRIVATE CONNECTIONS: "Robert Grant is founder and president of Christian Voice, the largest evangelical Christian lobby in Washington, DC He is also chairman of the board of the Coalition for Religious Freedom and president of American Christian Cause. In addition, Grant is cohost of the national television program, Let Freedom Ring. (3) The Christian Voice PAC, the Moral Government Fund, set up Christians for Reagan to promote Ronald Reagan's 1980 bid for the presidency. (39,40,41) Gary Jarmin is/was legislative director of Christian Voice and national field director of the American Coalition for Tradition Values. (38)

So there's our Gary Jarmin again too.

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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #9
20. More dirt
http://www.newsmakingnews.com/vm,exposing,christian,rig...

"
Christian Voice: The founders of this organization, Revs. Richard Zone and Robert Grant, got their start in the American Christian Cause, a California Group formed to mobilize support for the Briggs Initiative, a 1978 ballot initiative that would have barred gay people from working in California schools. Following their failure on that question, they decided to go national and take on a wider range of issues, including opposition to school busing, the Panama Canal Treaty and abortion funding, and support for school prayer, Taiwan security and prosecuting welfare "deadbeats." According to Newsweek:

snip

Christian Voice's legislative director, Gary Jarmin, got his religious start in Sun Myung Moon's Unification Church and his political experience in the American Conservative Union. David Troxler, a member of Christian Voice's policy committee, used to be an assistant director of the Committee for the Survival of a Free Congress (CSFC - a political action committee whose director is the influential right-wing political tactician, Paul Weyrich). Robert Billings, a former member of the Christian Voice's policy committee, meanwhile, is now vice-chairman of the CSFC's board of directors.

Christian Voice has an advisory committee made up of four U.S. senators (Orrin Hatch of Utah, James McClure of Idaho, Roger Jepson of Iowa and Gordon Humphrey of New Hampshire) and 11 congressmen, including John Birch Society member Larry McDonald of Georgia - all New Right politicians.

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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #1
21. More great links with info and links to Moonies
http://www.seekgod.ca/cnp.r.htm

A lot of info there about Colonel Donor, Robert Grant, Gary Jarmin, the Moonies, and Nazis!

"After their poor results in the 1986 Congressional elections, Christian Voice leaders, Colonel Doner, Robert Grant and Gary Jarmin had concluded that Christians alone could not steer the country rightward. To be politically effective, they argued, Christians would have to be 'unequally yoked' with non-believers and even enemies of Christianity...

"In May 1988, Grant was invited as the keynote speaker for the annual conference of the Anti-Bolshevik Bloc of Nations (ABN), which included many of the same anti-Semitic East European emigre groups recruited by (CNP's ) David Balsiger's RAMBO Coalition . With headquarters in Munich and chapters throughout Europe and the United States, the ABN is nostalgic for the days when the Nazis occupied Eastern Europe. Scott Anderson and John Lee Anderson, authors of Inside the League, describe the ABN as: 'the largest and most important umbrella for Nazi collaborators in the world...A prime criterion for membership appears to be fealty to the cause of National Socialism; ABN officers constitute a virtual Who's Who of those responsible for the massacre of millions of civilians in the bloodiest war in history.' Grant's public association with Nazi sympathizers drew no storm of criticism from fellow evangelicals."

Wow, these guys really stink!

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George_S Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
43. RICO ACT? Is this an ongoing criminal enterprise?
Could be and good catch!
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Ima Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-18-04 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
62. FREE hosting
For the record..Free..NO sign up...easy. Book mark this link and pass it around. We need everyone able to post attachments if they have information.


http://tinypic.com/
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FloridaPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 07:10 PM
Response to Original message
2. Charities can be partisian. However, if it's a charity, you can take it
off your taxes. If they're saying the contribution is not a tax donation, they are not a charity. Now there are not-for-profits, which sound like charities, but aren't.

I believe I can honestily say the republicans have gone way beyond the bottom of the barrel in this election. After this election, I think there should be a lot of investigations into what these clowns are doing. I can see a seperate governmental agency reporting only to the 9-11 families investigating everything that has been done by the repubs the last 4 years.
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #2
15. Charity in some states but they say not deductible
On the bottom of the first page, they show their address as 208 North Patrick Street, Alexandria, VA 22314, and they say the following below that:

"Because American Federation of Senior Citizens lobbies Congress on behalf of Senior Citizens, your donation is not deductible for federal income tax purposes."

Helluva charity.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
3. Kick this...it's scarey........Let me see if I can find the letter to save
you the trip to Kinko's.
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. Thanks Koko, or else I can scan it at work Monday morning and email it
Please let me know!
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #3
18. I've scanned the images and can email them now
I wish I knew more about computers LOL

Anyway, back from Kinkos and ready to email them.

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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
4. I was solicited by them a couple of years ago.
I told them not to send me their propaganda again and they haven't. However, maybe they need to be exposed so other seniors don't fall into their trap.
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mom cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
5. Kick.
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salvorhardin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 10:47 PM
Response to Original message
10. Kick!
:kick:
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
12. Bozos for Bush try to keep this kicked for tomorrow...some interesting
Edited on Sat Oct-16-04 11:15 PM by KoKo01
stuff just turned up from poster "salvorhardin" here, but it's too late and post might get lost overnight.

Maybe this could be a case where you could contact the US Postal Service about whomever is sending this. Before Bush they used to investigate this kind of thing.

I remember all the problems I had with my elderly dad who was getting all those Reader's Digest Sweepstakes forms and ordering books, and turns out they were preying on elderly folks.

This group sounds like it's worse than Reader's Digest.though. It might be fraud by soliciting through fear tactics. :shrug:
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 11:55 PM
Response to Original message
17. The "Social Security Preservation Card"
Social Security Preservation Card

My signature below indicates the following:

. throughout my life I have paid into the Social Security program;

. I have trusted the promise of Social Security;

. I rely on my Social Security benefits and want them to continue uninterrupted;

. I trust President Bush and my conservative leaders to reform my Social Security and guarantee my retirement security;

. I am trusting Congress to work alongside President Bush to put my retirement security on sound financial footing and PRESERVE MY SOCIAL SECURITY.

Signed ____________ Date __/__/__



What a scam!
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 02:16 AM
Response to Original message
22. Louis Desloge, anyone? Co-founder of US Cuba Foundation
Finding tons of info about the Moonies, Gary Jarmin, Robert Grant, etc., but no solid link to Bushboy yet :(
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diamond14 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #22
53. If you post an article or comment about CUBA on DU....there will
Edited on Sun Oct-17-04 04:08 PM by amen1234
be the regular group that will come out and post LOTS of gary jarmin "cubanet" articles....they will self-identify....it's always the same group with the SAME cubanet articles...



try it...it's like the same group of people, ALWAYS, trying to use DU to influence Cuba policy...and always linking to gary jarmin's cubanet...and first one comes onto DU, then the same group of others, it's always the same...like groupies...pushing gary's stuff

http://www.cubanet.org/cubanews.html


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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. No thanks lol
I don't think we need their "help" today LOL.

Perhaps the day after Kerry wins?

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salvorhardin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #53
59. Interesting, if odd, tid-bit there Amen
So... CubaNet is Gary Jarmin as well, huh?

Had not made that connection in my research.

It'll be interesting to see if the CubaNet freaks come out when I post the final results of our research.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-18-04 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #59
64. Good Grief....Cubanet? next we'll have "Agent Mike" here checking us
out for "Terra" network...
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #53
75. Cubanet is financed partially by U.S. taxpayers, through USAID
from Coral Gables, I believe, and it is operated by Cuban "exiles" in South Florida.

They run articles from newspapers, and articles written by Cuban dissidents.
USAID Grantees
Since 1997, USAID has obligated more than $22 million in grants to 25 U.S. non-governmental organizations and universities to implement the USAID Cuba Program. Principal current grantees of the USAID Cuba program are: International Republican Institute, University of Miami; Center for a Free Cuba; Pan-American Development Foundation; Florida International University; Freedom House; Grupo de Apoyo a la Democracia; Cuba On-Line; CubaNet; Accin Democrtica Cubana; Carta de Cuba and Georgetown University.
http://www.usaid.gov/locations/latin_america_caribbean/...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


In 2003 Washington gave $6 million to USAID and $1 million to NED, a congressionally funded organisation founded during the Cold War to finance subversion in the former Soviet bloc.

NED pays the salaries of "dissident librarians and journalists". For example, journalists are paid $15 per feature for CubaNet, a Miami-based online news service, which also receives NED support.

Payments for "independent journalists" articles last year came from a $41,000 grant from the NED, according to Cuba Net editor Rosa Berre.

So the US government funds USAID and NED and these organisations fund CubaNet and Freedom House.
How, then, can Freedom House claim that it is a " nonpartisan organisation"?
(snip)http://www.cubanlibrariessolidaritygroup.org.uk/release...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Anything read from the Cubanet site must be scrutinized carefully, as it operates as a conduit of right-wing Cuban "exile"/Republican extremist propaganda, with the rare exception of its use of straight news items they have culled from newspapers for their own reasons.


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diamond14 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #75
76. AHHH....AHHHHHH....they are HERE......

just like I predicted...expect the rest of the gang to be here soon.....


(perhaps they don't work on weekends...but they are DEFINITELY here now).....just mention "Cuba" and they all show up....
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #76
77. Actually, regular Cuba thread posters debunk Cubanet articles DUers post
Anyone who follows the "Cuba threads" knows that JudiLyn debunks the wingnut propaganda supplied by Cubanet quite solidly and adeptly.


Here's to JudiLyn - :toast:
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diamond14 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #77
78. yes, more have arrived.....

I warned everyone....


:puke:
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #53
79. Links please
Edited on Tue Oct-19-04 09:39 PM by Mika
"If you post an article or comment about CUBA on DU....there will be the regular group that will come out and post LOTS of gary jarmin "cubanet" articles....they will self-identify....it's always the same group with the SAME cubanet articles..."



Links please. Back up your claim.


Those of us in the "regular group" on DU Cuba threads usually debunk cubanet articles.


Links please. Back up your claim. Otherwise, you're pulling crap outta your ass.



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diamond14 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-04 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #79
80. my, my....such foul language AND poor English.....typical approach....
Edited on Wed Oct-20-04 04:59 PM by amen1234


.....foul, nasty words AND poor English
".....you're pulling crap outta your ass"


guess that's all you can say, and it doesn't say much about you....



here, read this link
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

"I hate it when they rip off OUR seniors" (AMEN1234)


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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-04 03:07 AM
Response to Reply #80
81. It would seem you brought up the subject of Democrats who favor
Edited on Thu Oct-21-04 04:05 AM by JudiLyn
dropping the embargo and travel ban. You mistakenly claimed the posters at D.U. actually turn to Cubanet as a resource, placing value in their political position.

You were wildly off the mark. As you seem unable to grasp, that site is controlled by right-wing interests. You need to take time to actually think about what you're writing.

In regards to trying to slander the D.U.'ers who oppose the embargo and the travel ban, you are simply not qualified to make the decisions about what can and cannot be discussed here, are you?

If you have honorable communication with Democrats who don't support the 44+ year old embargo and travel ban, you need to speak directly with them, using real information, and you should be upright about it, rather than slandering them when you're not addressing them directly in a responsible communication.

I remember when you started posting at D.U., and you surely tried to kick up some dust on Cuba threads, yet you simply didn't have the information you needed to back up your Cuba thoughts, which hang emptily, without facts, upon TRULY old, worn, propaganda circulated by people with a right-wing agenda.

You were invited then to start bringing actual links to bear on your statements, and you disappeared from the threads altogether. If you have more to say, please feel free in a more honorable way than trying to devaluate people who, in many cases, know EXACTLY what they're talking about.

You'd be better off coming to terms with trying to understand why you are attempting to connect anti-embargo Democrats with a right-wing enterprise.

A majority of Americans believe it's time to remove the embargo and travel ban on Cuba. These people are NOT bomb-tossing, dictator-humping commie pinko fringe folks.

Don't try to pick fight with members. If you have a subject to discuss responsibly, discuss the material itself, and forget attacking DU'ers. That's shabby.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


I'm offering a look at a thread in which you participated before. As you can see, not one of us referred to Cubanet. It's very interesting:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 02:36 AM
Response to Original message
23. Tim Lahaye, anyone? American Coalition for Traditional values
Big stuff here...

"Reconstructionists wants to incorporate dominion over all mankind in order to initiate the "second coming."
Reconstructionists would like to change our form of government to a Christian-based theocracy. They are already at work behind the scenes to change our government through the passage of laws, court rulings and the election of public officials who have accepted the support of those in this movement in return for votes.

The beliefs of reconstructionists are described in a document called A Manifesto for the Christian Church. Signers of the Manifesto include:

Dennis Peacocke, Strategic Christian Services;
Dr. Ted Baehr, Good News Communications;
Dr. Gary Amos, Rregent University, Law & Public Policy;
Gary DeMar, American Vision and Worldview Magazine;
Ted DeMoss, Christian Business Men's Committee;
Dr. Jay Grimstead, Coalition on Revival;
Dr. James Kennedy, Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church;
Dr. Tim LaHaye, American Coalition for Traditional Values;
Mrs. Connie Marshner, Free Congress Foundation;
Dr. Gary North, Institute for Christian Economics;
Dr. R. J. Rushdoony, Chalcedon Institute;
Mark Siljander, Global Strategics, Inc.;
Dr. Robert Simonds, Citizens for Excellence in Education;
Rev. Donald Wildmon, American Family Association;
David Chilton, Pastor, Church of the Redeemer;
Dr. Steven Hotze, political activist, Houston, Texas.

http://home.datawest.net/esn-recovery/artcls/COR.htm

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Gaffey Duck Donating Member (274 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-18-04 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #23
67. Of the few names I recognise on this list, LaHaye is the LEAST scary...
Rushdoony, on the other hand, scares the FUCK out of me.
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 02:41 AM
Response to Original message
24. More dirt on Tim Lahaye - MUST READ!
http://www.buildingequality.us/ifas/fw/9502/newt.html

How to Win an Election Conference, Newt Gingrich, taking over America, etc.

Wow!
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 02:45 AM
Response to Original message
25. This Tim Lahaye guy wants to bring about end of the world, rapture, etc!
Wow!

http://www.buildingequality.us/ifas/fw/0006/lahaye.html

Could this be the real reason we went to war in Iraq? As a step towards bringing about the end of the world and the rapture that all these folks think will happen?

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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 02:49 AM
Response to Original message
26. BINGO!!! Links between George Bush and Tim Lahaye/Gary Jarmin!
Found something really good here:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/_/id/5939999...

"It might seem unlikely that the commander in chief would take his marching orders directly from on high -- unless you understand the views of the Rev. Timothy LaHaye, one of the most influential leaders of the Christian right, and a man who played a quiet but pivotal role in putting George W. Bush in the White House"

snip

"When the meeting with Bush ended, LaHaye gave the candidate his seal of approval. For Bush, it was a major breakthrough, clearing the decks for hundreds of leaders of the Christian right, from TV preachers and talk-show hosts to Bible Belt pulpit pounders, to support the Bush-Cheney ticket in 2000. "Bush went into the meeting not totally acceptable," recalls Paul Weyrich, the grandfather of the religious right, who has known LaHaye for thirty years. "He went out not only acceptable but enthusiastically supported."

Explosive stuff here! Woohoo! Yeeeehawwwwww!

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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 03:07 AM
Response to Original message
27. Linking to new post in Campaign 2004 - Iraq War real reason, the rapture?!
I am linking this thread to one I started in Campaign 2004 titled "We went to war to start the rapture!?!?"

I can't believe all the stuff I'm finding now!

I might not sleep!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

John
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crixus Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #27
32. Why we went to war.
We did not go to war to start the rapture. Bringing about the end of the world would mean corporations wouldn't be able to make profit.

The standards rules and regs of why the US went to war apply here. We went to war so US corporations could benefit from manufacturing for the war, and get the rebuilding contracts after the war.

C...
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 04:49 AM
Response to Original message
28. Need help!
Need someone's help to post scanned JPEGs of the threatening letter.

Need help in getting this to the media, Kerry campaign, etc.

It ties directly to Tim Lahaye, and therefore George Bush.

Yeeehaaawwwwww

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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 05:15 AM
Response to Original message
29. NEED HELP - someone who knows how to post scanned images please contact me
I can't kick this thing all night, I need sleep LOL

And we need to email this threatening letter and the ties to George Bush to anyone who will kick it up up up!
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WLKjr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 06:03 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. Just to let you know
Edited on Sun Oct-17-04 06:04 AM by WLKjr
if you do a google search for free image hosting or have a friend who has an ftp server, you can upload the picture to a website or something then post the link here, like so

:::http://www.getwellsoonrighties.com/bushsupportercryingo... . jpeg:::::
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 06:41 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. Thanks WLK Jr
It's 4:30 here and I've been up all night working this thing. Teach1st is assisting me right now - I think he/she is an east coaster, so hopefully when I wake up this thread or my other one is exploding with buzz and oohs and awes lol.

John
STOP BUSH!
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salvorhardin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #30
34. Thanks for making a point I forgot
One such service is http://www.photobucket.com
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sadiesworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 08:19 AM
Response to Original message
33. kick
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salvorhardin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
35. More dirt on Jarmin
I posted a request for help in the VA and D.C. forums here at DU. Particularly for photographs of the 208 Patrick Street N. property.

We've already got some action in the D.C. forum.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

It turns out that 208 N Patrick St. is owned by Gary Jarmin. Property records here:
http://alexandriava.gov/city/reasearch/rea_search_detai...

This information was courtesy of DU'er amen1234 who has volunteered to drive over there and check it out. Thanks amen1234! :toast:
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. Great, can't wait to see the photos
I'v just posted a new message here:

It includes a link to see the letter - Teach1st was very kind to post them while I slept for 3 hours (need more sleep!).

Perhaps we can move to the new thread and summarize there?

And as you know by now, Gary Jarmin was the partner of Tim Lahaye (American Coalition of Traditional Values) Tim links directly to TARGET 1. Woohoo, this could be good stuff - I sure hope so cause we must win this election.

Link to new message: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

John


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salvorhardin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. Unfortunately
amen1234 does not have a camera. :(

Maybe someone else will.
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. LOL, OK a verbal will have to do :) (nt)
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diamond14 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. I have a camera...I took a whole roll of film...just NOT a digital camera
it's an old fashioned regular camera...took 24 photos of the neighborhood, and the house and the address and the cross-street...and a long shot showing the NEIGHBORHOOD GIANT KERRY/EDWARDS sign....hehehehe...had to add that extra one...

if you want to develop the film...PM me and I'll send it to you....
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #42
56. Thanks amen - can't wait to see them (nt)
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
39. Here is the link to the scary letter
http://www.tuff-teach.com/ss /

Thanks to Teach1st for posting it for me.

Some really lousy, scary shit.

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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
40. Just got off the phone with Kerry HQ in Florida, gonna fax them tomorrow
Decided to call Florida because they I knew they would be working on Sunday.

http://www.tuff-teach.com/ss /

Spread the word!
John
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George_S Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
41. Kerry Attacker Protected Rev. Moon
Must read, DUers!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Excellent work in this thread :)
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #41
46. Thanks, and you too - perhaps we need to merge all this
Here is the link for the Scary Social Security letter:

http://www.tuff-teach.com/ss /

John
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salvorhardin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
44. Here's our preliminary report on 208 N. Patrick St.
Amen1234 got back from her survey expedition of the listed address of all these Moonie front groups. Very interesting.
Quote:
I hate it when those bush* "Christians" rip off OUR seniors...it's real slime....


anyhow...I went over to 208 North Patrick Street....as I thought, it's OLD OLD town Alexandria...I took a whole roll of film (Kodak 35 mm, 200 speed)....if you want to develop it, PM me and I'll send it to you...your local film developer could put it on-line for you)

the house is historic, in fairly good shape, painted a light blue....NO SIGNS at all, except for a "little" security alarm sign in the corner of one window...TWO addresses posted over the double front door...208 and 210....those cheap white blinds cover every window, and were all closed...

reviewing the Alexandria Real Estate link for 208...it does show 208-210 for that address...so it's a DOUBLE lot....but posted an "unknown" 210 address (unknown by the City of Alexandria Real Estate web page)....strange....perhaps the City of Alexandria should take a trip over there and examine the tax records....could be some typically "christian" real estate LIES here...

the front building is the OLD building, but there is a HUGE addition onto the back of the historic house, two story addition HUGE...bigger than the original house (could there be something wrong with Alexandria real estate assessment, as a 90 sq ft addition and a 60 sq foot addition???? it's clearly additions MUCH BIGGER THAN THAT)....the house wall on the NORTH is directly against the next house wall....there's a "little" strip of vacant land on the SOUTH, which is enclosed with a matching blue wood fence (perhaps the extra lot?, but it is real small and narrow)....this narrow yard had just trash, building stuff, and NO landscaping at all....

I will take amen1234 up on her offer to send me the roll of film and get the photos developed myself. This will take some time, but I will post them here on DU ASAP. I have a lot more research I want to do on this group and at the risk of sounding hysterical, believe we are onto something big.

Thanks everyone for their hard work and especially Bozos For Bush for bringing this up.
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. Thank you Amen and Salvorhardin
Sincere thanks for the help, and I also believe we are onto something big. I just finished emailing the letter to everyone on Skinner's list, with a short, concise explanation.

John
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #44
49. As I said on the other thread. This is what Sibol Edmunds was talking
about, I think. "Networks of charitable and cultural cultural organizations" involved in moving funds from terrorist networks...

So far we know that Grover Norquist works with some of these groups. This looks like another network..
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salvorhardin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. Yeah, that's just what I was thinking too
I just saw your post in the other thread. Gawd, when you start digging into this stuff it's like taking an axe to a rotten tree stump. All kinds of creepy crawly nasties come out.

Nitpick: It's Sibel Edmunds.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
47. Send this to Congressman Henry Waxman...he's investigating everything
to do with Bush...Here's the link to his site, and on the left "pull down menu" there's a "Contact Us" where you can notify him.He's about the only one I trust.


http://www.henrywaxman.house.gov/bio.htm


Maybe send it to Josh Marshall (Talking Points Memo) too.
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. "Contact Us" only for his district - it's OK...
Kerry HQ will have the letter tomorrow (scanned version) and I told them they can have the original if they want it.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. If you want to use it, here's another address for him..
I subscribe to his "Newsletter" and he has an address for those who subscribe to answer him and I'm in NC. At one time he had a special address to contact him for "Tips" on his website, but maybe he got to many crazies sending him RW stuff. So, he started a subscriber Newsletter.

Here's the address I copied off my Newsletter with a blurb about his interests:

<waxman.newsletter@mail.house.gov >
Rep. Waxman is the Ranking Minority Member of the Committee on Government Reform and a member of the Committee on Energy and Commerce. For more information, visit Committee Assignments.
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #50
57. Sending now (nt)
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salvorhardin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
52. I just summarized
everything I found out, along with Amen1234's help at the thread this all seems to be consolidating under.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 07:07 PM
Response to Original message
55. Kick for new thread...
kick
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. Just found out my younger sister is a Moonie :(
While talking to my mom a little while ago, she mentioned she my older sister recently brought over 6-7 books that my younger sister gave to my older one. Soul Harvest, Assassins, The In Dwelling, Nicolae, the Rise of the AntiChrist, The Mark, Papollyon, The Destroyer is Unleashed, and The Tribulation Force. When she told me they were all written by Tim Lahaye, I told her to throw them all in the trash.

No wonder my younger sis is so screwed up these days.

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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-18-04 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
60. Just posted more digging on "Plastic Turkey's" post in GD Forum....(n/t)
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-18-04 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
61. BTW: It seems this "scam" has been reported and complained about
already to the US Postal Service, State Attorney's General, etc. This group is so "wired in" to the tentacles of Power in Washington that I don't think anyone will touch it right now.

BUT, it seems that if a "Class Action Suit" can be brought against them as using "Charities" for illegal purposes (and certainly all those "fronts" in Alexandria,VA) are very suspect, then there's a chance of exposing something BIG.

I also saw in "digging around" on Google today that there are many sites that have posted about this following the story from different angles in
the past years. Even Josh Marshall has done some work on these interconnected ties...but not to the Social Security scam by itself.

The Social Security angle might be an excellent way to bring all the interconnectivity of these Moonies, RW Armageddonists, Think Tanks, and fronts posing as Senior Citizens champions to light. So far everyone posts bits and pieces and reporters can get a comprehensive EXPOSE article in print.

Also, as I posted on the other thread...I think the AARP might have some involvement...remembering their "cave in" on the Prescription Drug Program. Some folks here on DU at the time felt that AARP was in business just to push their own private insurance they offer to their subscribers and many contacted AARP cancelling their membership.

Some of those DU'ers are still here lurking or posting.

I honestly don't know what "WE" can do here...Except compile it all together in one place and find someone who can do something with it, or hire a lawyer and start a class action :shrug:

What started off as a "Senior Citizen Mail Scam" has indeed revealed a pit of snakes all the way into top levels of our government and the President and former President.
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-18-04 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #61
65. Koko01, check out post 63 - there's our Marvin Mondres again
BTW great work - I am humbled :)

I am going to start a new thread tonight and somehow tie all this together and ask/beg for more help. We are really onto something here.

John
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-18-04 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #65
68. Did you see my post about the different topics from the 1998 article
"Fear Merchants." I pulled out a few avenues of exploration from that article...didn't get to Google but two on it. I will do what I can..if I have time tomorrow..to check back on those leads..
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-18-04 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. Saw it! Gonna eat dinner, then start a new thread and try to tie all this
together and organize it. And someone else posted that Malloy is talking about our thread!
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VOX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-18-04 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
63. AFOSC's office may be in VA, but it's registered in North Dakota...
And incorporated in Delaware. Pulled this info up off a Lexis-Nexis Public Records search. The organization is also listed with the Oklahoma Secretary of State, but I can see no OK address.

I've searched GuideStar, but can find no record for AFOSC as a non-profit. But that may also depend on how it's structured and how it files income tax. It's also possible that the tax files simply haven't been processed as yet. Not uncommon to see a 2-or 3-year delay sometimes.
- - - - - - - -
THIS DATA IS FOR INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY

CERTIFICATION CAN ONLY BE OBTAINED THROUGH THE ISSUING GOVERNMENT AGENCY
NORTH DAKOTA SECRETARY OF STATE
Company Name: AMERICAN FEDERATION OF SENIOR CITIZENS, INC.
Mailing Address:
208 N PATRICK ST STE 100
ALEXANDRIA, VA 22314-2441
Type: CORPORATION (NON-PROFIT)
Status: ACTIVE
Status Date: 7/19/2000
Filing Date: 7/19/2000
State or Country of Incorporation: DELAWARE
Registered Agent: MICHAEL KAUTZMAN
Registered Office:
1008 E CAPITOL AVE
BISMARCK, ND 58501
Filing Number: 15971600

- - - - - - - - - -

THIS DATA IS FOR INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY
CERTIFICATION CAN ONLY BE OBTAINED THROUGH THE ISSUING GOVERNMENT AGENCY
OKLAHOMA SECRETARY OF STATE
Company Name: AMERICAN FEDERATION OF SENIOR CITIZENS, INC.
Mailing Address: 208 N PATRIC ST
ALEXANDRIA, VA 22314
Type: OTHER (CHARITABLE ORGANIZATION)
Status: IN EXISTENCE
Filing Date: 5/30/2000
Expiration Date: 6/4/2005
Registered Agent: LOCATION
Registered Office: 208 N PATRICK ST STE 100
ALEXANDRIA, VA 22314
Internal Number: 4300646078
Officers, Directors:
MARVIN MONDRES
119 PLEASANT LA
MASSANUTEN, VA 22840
GENERAL PARTNER
History: File Date: 6/4/2004
Type: MISCELLANEOUS
Comments: RENEWAL REGISTRATION

File Date: 5/12/2003
Type: MISCELLANEOUS
Comments: AMENDED REGISTRATION

File Date: 6/3/2002
Type: MISCELLANEOUS
Comments: RENEWAL REGISTRATION

File Date: 5/15/2001
Type: MISCELLANEOUS
Comments: RENEWAL REGISTRATION

File Date: 5/30/2000
Type: MISCELLANEOUS
Comments: APPLICATION FOR REGISTRATION

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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-18-04 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #63
66. WTG Rezmutt
You found our mysterious Marvin Mondres again, though I wonder if the address is current.

Look for a new thread later tonight tying all this together.

John
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diamond14 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-18-04 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #63
70. BINGO....the web gets bigger....marvin mondres info....
Edited on Mon Oct-18-04 11:34 PM by amen1234
I recognized Massanutten (which marvin mis-spelled) as being the LONGEST mountain in the Virginia Blue Ridge Mountains (part of the Appalacians).....

sooooo, I looked up the zip code at USPS web site...and it lists Massanutten (as a secondary town)...but the MAIN town is Mc Gaheysville, Virginia (atually, there is NO TOWN in Virginia named Massanutten, just the BIG mountain (which I have climbed and hiked all over this beautiful place)....

anyhow....futher effort on SuperPages.com led to the actual address/phone for marvin (which I will not list here, but put a link to the SuperPages)....
http://directory.superpages.com/wp/moreinfo.jsp?SRC=&ST...


soo...ooooo....marvin actually lives at a RESORT, called Massanutten Village, nearby Post Office:
Mc Gaheysville, Virginia.....

(oh gosh, what better place to have fundi-"christian"-conservative meetings than the mountains of Virginia....dick cheney has often gone to resorts in the mountains of Virginia for PRIVATE events....

anyhow...here's the RESORT, along with a bit of the history....can't find any prices, it appears that you must be a member of a PRIVATE GROUP called RCI, in order to stay at the PRIVATE Massanutten Village Resort....
http://www.massresort.com/2003/Resort/history.htm

and here's the web site for RCI (interesting, no prices on here either, for membership or rentals or whatever...must be a VERY private group.....with time-sharing all over the world...
http://www.rci.com
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-18-04 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. WTG amen1234
Right now I am working on a new thread that will tie everything together from 4 threads. Look for it around 10:30-11:00 PST.
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starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #70
73. RCI is Resort Condominiums International
And what they do is sell time-sharing in resort locations. You plonk down your several thousands dollars for one or two weeks every years in a specific resort. You can also exchange your weeks with someone else and thus get to vacation in a different place every year. So it's not exactly a private, invitation-only sort of thing. RCI is part of Cendant Corporation, which is very large and mainstream.

In addition, I found a page which says, "Massanutten Village is a thriving four-season resort and community of over 600 single family homes, 900 timesharing units, and a multi-million dollar ski business."
http://www.massresort.com/2003/Resort/history.htm . So presumably, Marvin lives in one of the private homes and isn't part of the RCI timesharing operation at all.
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diamond14 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #73
74. it could be anything....seems ODD to list your time-sharing condo
as YOUR address on a Corporation filing....

so maybe it's a house....


and the Massanutten Village includes conference rooms and catering and stuff...it's not cheap....but it would be a great place to entertain other "christian" scam artists....and set up meetings and conferences...

it'd be interesting to get some more info on the 119 Pleasant LA, McGaheysville, VA 22840 address....like: who owns this place?


and of couse, maybe marvin lives elsewhere, and this really is just his vacation second home....anything could be going on here, and it really needs some more research....

plus, a LOT of time-share stuff is simply more rip-off artists....
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 01:10 AM
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72. Please link to new, updated thread
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