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LZ1234 Donating Member (247 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-04-04 02:33 PM
Original message
What have others' experiences been in talking to fundamentalists?
I have a good friend I've known for 25 years. She wasn't fundamentalist when I met her but in the last few years she has turned into quite a devout fundamentalist. Politics is one thing we don't talk about but it's getting harder not to talk about it. I don't want to risk our friendship but has anyone else been successful in getting fundamentalists to change their stance? By the way, the only information she gets her news from is the Christian Broadcast Network (cbn.com) and religious radio stations (like Joyce Meyers). As far as I'm concerned no religious leader should be discussing politics. Once I hear any speaker mixing religion and politics I refuse to listen to them.
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GoneOffShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-04-04 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
1. Live in the big city
Don't talk to fundies.
Though I'm friends with a Mennonite minister and his wife. They are appalled at Bushco. And politically active.
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Sandpiper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-04-04 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
2. It's nigh impossible to reason with a fundamentalist
Because fundamentalism by it's nature, shuns reason and appeals to emotion and illogic.
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AIJ Alom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-04-04 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
3. Give her this. It's opened eyes for my nutty fundy friends.
A Tale of Two Presidents:
Why People Remember September 11, 2001 but Not January 1, 2000.
By AIJ Alom

Many Americans can recall the tragic events of September 11, 2001 and the resolve the nation showed in its aftermath. But many Americans forget Al Qaeda’s most devastating attack prior to 9/11.

Al Qaeda operatives launched devastating attacks on Americans domestically and abroad in eight other nations on January 1, 2000 while the world celebrated the start of the new millennium. The Millennium attacks left scores dead, and at that time were considered the deadliest attacks by Al Qaeda against Americans to date.

In the months following the Millennium attack, the media learned of the fortunate arrest of Ahmed Ressam at the US-Canadian border. Ressam was captured by hawk-eyed border patrol agents, several weeks before the attacks. Unfortunately, the Clinton Administration did not look into Ressam further, nor issue a press release on the arrest. Subsequently, several more of his cohorts entered the nation through the porous border undeterred, joined with those already in place and carried out the devastating attacks.

New evidence, declassified in July 2002, shows Bill Clinton failed to read a Presidential Daily Briefing given to him in November of 1999, a full month before the attacks. The memo entitled Bin Laden to Strike US to Coincide With Millennium Celebration provided by domestic and foreign intelligence sources was largely ignored by the Clinton administration. Sandy Berger, the National Security Adviser, when presented with the memo in 2002 said the threats were too vague and based on old intelligence. Berger also said that the Clinton administration had no idea which nations and airports were to be targeted. In a heated response he indicated that Americans were abroad in many nations and there are hundreds of airports in the United States.

One thing is certain, as head of the executive branch, Bill Clinton failed to alert federal and local law enforcement agencies both at home and abroad of the possible threat of terrorism. His inaction resulted in the deaths of countless scores of Americans and allies in 9 nations, including the United States. The brazenness of the attack was compounded by the fact the Clinton team did nothing to warn the general public. Many security experts agree that by simply alerting global law enforcement, especially after the Ressam incident, could have given us an important advantage.

Fortunately for America, Bill Clinton took his PDB’s seriously: the January 1, 2000 terror attacks never happened. It was foiled by a concerted effort by the Clinton Administration, CIA, FBI, and local and foreign governments and law enforcement agencies. Without the Department of Homeland Security, without terror alert levels, and without scaring the general public, they managed to thwart a global terrorist plot. The fact that most people do not remember the details of their heroics is a testament to their success. Nothing happened.

Now what would have happened if the same strategy had been employed by the Bush Administration to try to prevent September 11, 2001?

A review of recently declassified federal documents shows that devastating terrorist attacks on New York and Washington, DC in early September of 2001 were thwarted by the Bush administration. On August 6, 2001 the president received an intelligence memo (PDB) entitled Bin Laden Determined to Strike In US. The memo, though vague in nature and based on old intelligence was taken extremely seriously by President Bush and his administration. Bush cut his vacation at his Crawford ranch to fly back to Washington. As head of the executive branch, George Bush ordered the FBI and CIA to look into the threat both domestically and abroad.

Collin Powell and the State Department warned Americans overseas to be on the alert for possible terror attacks. He also asked foreign governments and law enforcement to be on high alert for any suspicious activity.

The first break in the case came on August 15, 2001. Zacarias Moussaoui was arrested and detained in Minnesota by the FBI on an immigration violation. Moussaoui, according to the FBI, was taking flight lessons and was reported by flight instructors. The most troubling aspect of Moussaoui’s desire to fly according to the flight instructors is that he was interested in knowing how much damage a 747 can do if it impacted with something.

Though this is only one man, the Bush administration quickly orders all domestic law enforcement agencies, border guards, and US airline security put on high alert for possible terrorism. Information on Zacarias Moussaoui and his possible terrorist connection is leaked to the press in order to deter any other would be terrorists.

Sure enough thanks to the Bush administrations diligence and hard work in August of 2001, September saw the arrests of a dozen or so would be terrorists. Most were caught because of their placement on a terrorist no-fly list which was updated after the Moussaoui incident. A pair was caught in flight schools in Florida by flight instructors who had read about Moussaoui in the local papers. Several others were caught at the border trying to enter with forged passports. A quartet including ringleader Mohammad Atta was caught by Airline security at Boston’s Logan airport.

The above scenario, though as much as we wish now, did not happen. Instead the FBI, CIA, border patrol, and airline security have taken most of the blame for the September 11, 2001 terrorist attack. They are not the ones that should be held accountable. Why did the Bush administration do nothing? Simple leadership on August 6, 2001 as displayed by Bill Clinton in the fall on 1999 could have stopped this attack as well. The enormity of September 11, 2001, the desire to come together as one nation, and the desire for revenge made us forget. It propelled us into fighting and supporting a retaliatory war in Afghanistan against Al Qaeda and a pre-emptive one in Iraq.

After 9/11, the president promised us we would get Osama Bin Laden dead or alive and smoke him out of his cave. Then six months later, in March of 2002 he had no idea where Bin Laden was and Bush said that it did not concern him, the war on terror was bigger than Bin Laden. Yet to this day, Bin Laden’s Al Qaeda is responsible for the murder of innocent school children in Beslan, Russia, the train bombing in Madrid, and dozens of other terrorist attacks. Bin Laden’s group has even recently threatened US elections. In spite of all this, George W Bush rarely mentions Osama Bin Laden by name. Think about it.

Why does George W Bush feel so strongly about pre-emption in Iraq? In his opinion, Iraq was his second chance to pre-empt a possible terrorist attack. He blew his first chance at pre-emption and more than three thousand souls paid the price.


Feel free to share or email the above op-ed with or to anyone you wish.



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demnan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-04-04 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
4. I'm not sure I understand what stance she has
Maybe you should ask her - you might be surprised. I know a lot of religious people who support the Democrats, including Mormons, born-agains and religious Jews.
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dxdem Donating Member (246 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-04-04 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Fundies...
My father is a Southern Baptist (read: fundamentalist), lol, who honestly believes that we are in a war with Islam. I'll debate and argue with him, because he's easily confused, but really, what's the point most of the time?
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-04-04 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. Welcome to DU!
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LZ1234 Donating Member (247 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-04-04 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. I know for sure she is a Bush supporter. She and I both said enough
to establish where we stand back in May. It was extremely uncomfortable and we have not spoken about politics since.
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Alpharetta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-04-04 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
5. I suspect your results will be similar to mine

Consider the person like yourself who believes religious views have no place in politics. I doubt I could convince you otherwise.

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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-04-04 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
7. Go unto her, and sayeth thus unto her --
Surfest thou unto
http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm
and thou shalt surely be pleased.

Amen.

--bkl
Jesus wept. And my postings have played no small part.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-04-04 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
8. I had a friend start turing fundie a few years back
Once I saw the koolaid had taken hold, I wrote him off for good.

Life's too short for me to waste time on fundies.
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DenverDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-04-04 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
9. Joyce Meyers, actually, is one of the least objectionable tv preachers.
She has a more reasoned approach and less reationary philosophy than the other fundigelicals. Nothing like the radical wrong wingism of Pat Robertson, who is 180 degrees from Christ.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-04-04 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. She toes the line on the conservative doctrine, though
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DenverDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-04-04 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. Yeah, I guess I haven't listened to her more than the ten seconds
it takes to realize what's on the channel and continue surfing.

Of course, any fundigelical is missing the message of the real first cetury Christ.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-04-04 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
10. Oh, she will be very hard to reach, but
check out my Christianity page and see if there is anything there that might help you. (Mind you, I am a firm believer in separation of church and state so don't worry about me mixing politics and religion. ;^) )


http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/liberalchristians.htm
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Mister K Donating Member (338 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-04-04 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
13. Not really
I know two people who I am fairly close to that are Catholic and consider themselves Conservatives. They both have a strong stance on Stem Cell research and Abortion. They feel both should be outlawed and feel sorry for me that I am pro-choice and voting for Kerry.

A mutual friend of ours if going to Iraq next month as part of Operation Iraq Freedom III (He will be there until 2006). All they can say is that they will pray for him and his family. I somehow don't see the logic in that. Potentially sacrificing a friend in exchange for unborn children and Stem Cell research.

The additional problem I have is that if they had any common sense they would know that neither of the two will ever be fully outlawed. But I guess they can't vote for a person that supports it.

Go Kerry!
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-04-04 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Welcome to DU
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-04-04 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. Having been raised as a Catholic (I no longer am)
I take great exception to Catholics being mentioned in the same breath as a fundie. Most educated Catholics don't support Bush. It goes against a Jesuit education. There is a reason many of our leading intellectuals go to George town. Kerry, Carville and Begala are all Catholic. Clinton went to Georgetown and credits the Jesuits with forming his thinking! You might have a shot at these Catholics is you throw the Jesuit argument at them and don't forget to mention the Vatican okay on the pro choice issue as long as there are other issues they can support!
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-04-04 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
16. The only thing that melts that tight ball of fear is unconditional love
If you really have to break through to someone who has walled
themselves away behind unassailable beliefs, it is like whispering
through concrete block. Hammering at the blocks misses the point.

Fundamentalists are deeply afraid, pathologically, of facing life
without their "drug". So, like an unapologetic alcoholic, you either
tolerate it and melt the wall with love, or just walk away.

The pathology of these cats is bunkered away in a nutshell of
protection, that somehow they can surrender responsibility for their
lives and actions towards the rule book, as if life were fair and
there were referees waiting to call time out.

And behind that is the pathology of abuse, child abuse, bullying,
thuggery and terrorism. That these folks are soooo deeply
traumatized, they grasp for a new form of "rules of abuse", so that
it somehow can make sense, when in truth, they are deeply disturbed
people who can only be reached through genuine goodwill and the
willinness of a very mature person who knows how to manage a badly
beaten dog.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-04-04 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Brilliant post!
Yes, my dad and I often have commented that most folsk we know who cling to very conservative doctrines are dysfunctional.
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stanwyck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-04-04 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. wow
I completely agree and admire your succinct analysis. I'll try to have compassion instead of anger the next time I'm confronted by the wall of ignorance that is fundamentalism. I get so impatient and judgmental. I end up being as tiresome as the fundamentalist.
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-04-04 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Someone once loved me out of that concrete cell
Edited on Mon Oct-04-04 05:32 PM by sweetheart
I was sure no one would, that the cell was complete, like pink
floyd's wall. And it took someone demonstrating bravery and love,
really profound love, and expecting nothing, as i was giving nothing,
cowardly hiding behind my blocks. Little by little i was willing
to come out of hiding, 'cuz love moved me... something that i had
never really felt in my life.

Funnily, it was an enlightened buddhist master who did it, and not
a family member for i was too far gone... a reagan hardon who
signed up for the draft 'cuz i thought war was cool. One heart
at a time, is my feeling today.

Fundamentalism was for me atheism, an absolute denial that love
exists, that anyone out there loves at all... and these decades later i
can only reflect that love is the most powerful weapon in the arsenal.
It transforms where nothing else, but infinite patience and
compassion can enter.

For this once, reagan supporter to be voting kerry this november
has been a profound shift; one that i can only pray moves hearts
in a world so filled with terror.
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-04-04 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #16
28. Wow. Nailed it
You must have experience with these people and a lot of patience. I have some experience in dealing with these folks but no patience in dealing with them
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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-05-04 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #16
30. Well, I hope there are a lot of "very mature" people out there...
...because I've lost all patience with these pieces of shit. I fucking hate them.
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-04-04 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
20. Does that include
the Reverend Jesse Jackson or the Reverend Al Sharpton?? Just curious, but the rules apply to us as well as them. So what's the difference between these two and say the Reverend Pat Robertson or the Reverend Jery Falwell, except the positions that they take??
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FlaGranny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-04-04 04:00 PM
Original message
Well, seems to me that
fundamentalism, by its very nature, excludes folks like Sharpton and Jackson - they are way to liberal for fundamentalism.
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-05-04 08:21 AM
Response to Original message
29. Fundamentalist Liberal, perhaps?
So what you are saying is that only 'fundamentalist' Christians should keep quiet, while if you use christianity to advance the progressive agenda, it's not OK? Because that doesn't seem very progressive to me.
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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-04-04 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
22. a student I know at a very conservative Christian college in 2000
He told me he used to be republican but finally realized the democratic goals were closer to the Bible.

He was a theology major at the school and 'quietly' made a point of being a democrat. He told me fellow students would come to him and say 'But you're a theology major! How can you be a democrat?'

He said he always replied, 'I'm a democrat BECAUSE I am a theology major. I've the Bible a lot and have thoroughly studied its teachings. How can anyone who has done that NOT be a democrat???'

He said it left them totally confused.
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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-04-04 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
24. it's pointless
my brother, mother and father are fundies, for about 35 years now.
i'm the black sheep of course, driven mad and into atheism by their transformation from sane to raving loonies. it's extremely sad, but it's pointless to try to reach them with reason.
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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-04-04 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
25. An oldie but a goodie... Letter to Bush*
>Dear President Bush,
> >
> > Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I
> > have learned a great deal from you and understand why you would
> > propose and
> > support a constitutional amendment banning same sex marriage.
> >
> > As you said "in the eyes of God marriage is based between a man a
> > woman." I
> > try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone
>
> > tries
> > to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them
> > that
> > Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination... End of
> > debate.
> >
> > I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements
>
> > of
> > God's Laws and how to follow them.
> >
> > 1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and
> > female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend
>
> > of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can
>you
> > clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
> >
> > 2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in
> > Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair
> > price for her?
> >
> > 3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in
>her
> > period of menstrual uncleanness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do
>
> > I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
> >
> > 4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a
> > pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is, my neighbors.
> > They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
> >
> > 5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus
> > 35:2. clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated
>to
> > kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?
> >
> > 6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an
> > abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than
> > homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees'
>of abomination?
> > Oh, sorry. IS there degrees ...
> >
> > 7. Lev.21:20 states that I may ! not approach the altar of God if I
> > have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading
>glasses. Does
> > my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?
> >
> > 8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair
> > around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by
>Lev.19:27.
> > How should they die?
> >
> > 9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes
> > me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
> >
> > 10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two
> > different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing
>garments made of
> > two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends
>to
> > curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all
>the
> > trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them?
>Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't
> > we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with
>
> > people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
> >
> > I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy
> > considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can
>help.
> >
> > Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and
> > unchanging.
> >
> > In Jesus name,
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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-04-04 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. love it!
man those were the days! sacrifice and smiting over the slightest infraction. i know i'm hellbound for chewing gum in church and for lusting after margaret hamilton
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-04-04 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
26. It's a waste of time, believe me
Edited on Mon Oct-04-04 05:54 PM by Jacobin
They deal with the world using "beliefs and faith"

This country was founded on and the Enlightenment has been fueld by Reason and experimentation and the scientific method.

We speak in completely different languages and there is absolutely nothing that can be done, because Fundies don't "reason and think" they 'believe'

On edit: Forget what I just said. Sweetheart nailed it in posts 16 and 23 above.

Truly nailed it
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