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What is the difference??? bush-Iraq; Hitler-Poland.

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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 10:06 PM
Original message
What is the difference??? bush-Iraq; Hitler-Poland.
Hitler claimed terrorism "forced" the war on him; he "did not seek war".

bush uses the very same words and the very same excuse.

Hitler claimed he had to invade Poland to "liberate" the Poles and protect the German people from terrorists.

see above re bush.

Hitler violated international law by invading a nation(s) that had done nothing against Germany.

see above re bush.

Hitler had the "fatherland" and the "Patriot Act".

see above re bush.

Hitler said dissent = treason.

see above re bush.

So...other than Hitler killed more people than bush has (so far), what exactly is the difference??? Coz journalists keep saying "bush is no Hitler, but..."

He isn't???

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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
1. Big difference
Hitler starts with an H, Bush with a B.
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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #1
22. And
Hitler was democratically elected.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Actually, he wasn't.
He was appointed Chancellor by Germany's president Hindenburg.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #22
43. Hitler was never elected.
He lost the election, but was reluctantly appointed Chancellor by President Von Hindenberg in a move that was similar to the appointment of Bush by the Supreme Court. After Hindenberg died in office, there was no longer a pretense of the Wiemar Republic.
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Carla in Ca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
45. Ohh, you don't beat around the *, do you?
With all the talk of the 'next' country, this may be more dead-on right than we realize.
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Eye and Monkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
2. Senator Prescott Bush profitting from investments with theNazis;
Cheney profitting from Halliburton in Iraq and Iran while under sanctions?
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Hitler was helped to power by American banking
interests.....

http://www.tarpley.net/bush2.htm
Chapter - II - The Hitler Project
Bush Property Seized--Trading with the Enemy

In October 1942, ten months after entering World War II, America was preparing its first assault against Nazi military forces. Prescott Bush was managing partner of Brown Brothers Harriman. His 18-year-old son George, the future U.S. President, had just begun training to become a naval pilot. On Oct. 20, 1942, the U.S. government ordered the seizure of Nazi German banking operations in New York City which were being conducted by Prescott Bush.


http://www.oldamericancentury.org/binabio.htm

and Saddam was helped to power by American banking interests.

http://www.sundayherald.com/42648
The US has donned rose-tinted spectacles to mourn the passing of Ronald Reagan. But Investigations Editor Neil Mackay reveals a darker story of how, under Reagan, secret deals brokered by Donald Rumsfeld with Saddam Hussein secured the dictator an arsenal of WMD

The main difference is the decade.... one would think.
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Eye and Monkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. I'm wondering - how did George Sr. EVER end up in combat?
Or is that a complete fraud as well?
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Doctor_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
3. alot of hitler apologists say things like
"he had the right idea, just went too far". so the comparison, down deep, to a lot of people, is not really an insult to *. they believe if he can just take over the world's oil and then stop his crusade, that will be a success
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SudieJD Donating Member (676 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 10:16 PM
Response to Original message
4. We Should Never Forget.....
that everything Adolf Hitler did in Germany was "legal" and everything the Hungarian freedom fighters did in Hungary was "illegal" ~ Martin Luther King Jr., "Letter from Birmingham Jail", Whe We Can't Wait, 1963


Sudie in MN
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Johnny 99 Donating Member (273 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 10:25 PM
Response to Original message
6. Bush has yet to start the concentration camps
Sorry, but that is a huge difference. Plus, Hitler had in mind territorial expansion (hence the need to exterminate large numbers of people to get their land - Bush and his cronies just want to expand oil and construction companies' profits.
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Ready4Change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Funny, isn't there that place down in Cuba?
Oh, what is the name... It was in the news a little while ago...
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sr_pacifica Donating Member (775 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. Sorry but Gitmo is no Dachau
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stavka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. Agreed!
We'd all be in Gitmo if that was really the system we lived under.
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Ready4Change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Insidious things start small.
That's one lesson I've learned reading the history of the rise of Nazi Germany. A common statement among germans after the war was that they didn't notice the small steps. They just woke up one day and realized how bad things had gotten.

When they're kicking in your doors is to late to start paying attention.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-04 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #19
26. Once Hitler was named Chancellor
There were no more elections.

If this was Germany in 1936, Kerry woiuld be missing, this site would be shut down and most of us would have been arrested, and there would be no election campaign for anything.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-04 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #12
27. There is a distinction between concentration camp and death camp.
Gitmo qualifies, I believe, as a concentration camp.

Also, the death camps didn't come until late in Hitler's rule.
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sr_pacifica Donating Member (775 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-04 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. All of Hitler's concentration camps were "death" camps
And in fact they were called work camps in the beginning but, whatever they were called, they were death camps. You either died from typhus, starvation, overwork, or you were shot or gassed.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-04 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. Not exactly true.
Prisoners were released from Hitler's concentration camps, particularly in the years before the war. They were bad, bad, bad, but they were not Auschwitz-Birkenau.

I hate pulling out definitions, but here's one for "concentration camp":

"a penal camp where political prisoners or prisoners of war are confined (usually under harsh conditions))"

Is this not Gitmo?
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-04 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #12
31. So it's a kinder, gentler fascism
How cool, how lucky for us.

You folks who concentrate on the concnetration camps and genocide are missing the big picture here. While horrific, that was NOT the sum total of what Hitler did. Nor was it the first thing he did. There were a lot of steps that led up to it and enabled it.

Here's a little reading material for you:

They Thought They Were Free
http://www.thirdreich.net/Thought_They_Were_Free.html

Fascism Anyone? by Laurence W. Britt
http://secularhumanism.org/library/fi/britt_23_2.htm

March 16, 2003 by CommonDreams.org
When Democracy Failed: The Warnings of History by Thom Hartmann
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0316-08.htm

When Democracy Failed: The Warnings of History
by Thom Hartmann
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0316-08.htm

The NASCAR Nazi
Bush is creating an un-American America
http://www.ocweekly.com/ink/04/38/lost-washburn.php

It's time for another Bush/Nazis thread (Aug. 03)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Nazification of America Phase 3
http://www.hermes-press.com/nazification_step3.htm

The Reichstag Fire and 9/11; Pretexts for Dictatorship and the Fourth Reich
Includes: Parallels between the Third Reich and the Bush Regime; 9/11 and the Reichstag Fire; What was the Reichstag Fire; Nazis in America; Poland 1939, Iraq 2003 http://www.oilempire.us/reichstag-fire.html

The Rise of the Fourth Reich
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/reich.html

Bush's 9/11 Reichstag Fire by Harvey Wasserman
http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0913-03.htm


20 Comparisons by Barrie Zwicker
http://www.deceptiondollar.com/news/BloorRemarks911-03....


The Bush Plan for America: The Rise of an American National Security State
By Jennifer Van Bergen, 14 December 2003 http://www.ftaaimc.org/en/2003/12/3232.shtml

Bush is *not* Hitler!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


What Is Fascism
(This one is quite good and incl. two-tiered legal system as well as many other hallmarks, and Dr. Lawrence Britt's list, and additional links)
http://www.couplescompany.com/FEATURES/Politics/Structu...

Superpower Democracy (another must read)
http://www.greaterdemocracy.org/2003_07_01_gd.html#1058...

America, We Have a Problem
http://www.moderateindependent.com/v2i4dodd.htm

They Thought They Were Free
http://www.thirdreich.net/Thought_They_Were_Free_nn4.ht...

Fascism and America Today
by Aldo Vidali
http://www.apj.us/20010312fascism.html

This is the Fight of Our Lives by Bill Moyers
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0616-09.htm

I'm scared - I've got a mail, sounds real!!!!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Wanna know where today's Fascism came from? Look here 8/29/04
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Bush,Machiavelli,StraussIF NO EXTERNAL THREAT EXISTS ONE MUST BE INVENTED
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Fascism, Nazism, & Eugenics supported by Oil Barons of America &
esp. the Rockefeller Foundation
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


It's Time for Another Bush/Nazi Thread
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
(most links already harvested)

1944: American fascism (re 1944 article)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


Enough with the "_______ is worse than/ as bad as Hitler"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


How Reagan Got Elected in the first place -- My little tribute
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph... (See Octafish post #33 for links to some books on Amazon)


Is U.S. REALLY like Germany in the 30's? (elementaryPenguin)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
See also: Is US like Germany of the '30s? (Kayell)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Are we on the road to becoming Nazi's?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Second Circuit Judge Tells It Like It Is: Bush Is Illegitimate
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
re this news story: http://daily.nysun.com/Repository/getmailfiles.asp?Styl...

Comparing Bush to Hitler hurts our credibility
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

The Fascism is getting harder to hide. And harder to fight.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

"American fascists" among us
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Joe Stanton: "Bush's Operation Clean Sweep: World War IV in 2004?"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Fascism?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Way, Way Past Time To Label BushCo As Nazis
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

I'm crying (Elf sees the warning signs)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Is America Becoming Fascist?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

What Would Machiavelli Do? The Big Lie Lives On ...Thom Hartmann
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Do you understand that a Kerry win is only the beginning of the fight?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

When Fascism Comes to America
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

I could go on a bit, but perhaps that'll do for now.
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Johnny 99 Donating Member (273 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. Hmmm
To my knowledge there is no forced labor or execution chamber there. Nice try. No, Gitmo isn't paradise, and it's bullshit, but it's not Auschwitz.
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Ready4Change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. I don't mean to diminish the horrow of Auschwitz.
But Auschwitz became possible because people turned a blind eye to smaller injustices.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Did the German high court order Hitler to give Auschwitz detainees
due process?

People did stand up to Bush.
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Ready4Change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-04 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. It's a lowering of standards.
What will you be upset at? Where is your bar of outrage? Do we need human furnaces here un US soil? Do internment camps need mass gas chambers? Do all Arab-Americans need to be rounded up and shipped off in train cars? Do all writings need to be approved by a government council of American Values? Do gay couples have to be required to wear pink triangles if they wish to have their marriaged recognized? Do all children need to enlist in the Youth Guard of the USA?

Where will YOU draw the line? Will it be when your house is being burned down? Or when your constitution is being fed into a shredder, small peice by peice, simply because no one peice is as bad as Auschwitz?
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-04 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #25
37. Who said I wasn't outraged at what Bush is doing?
Something can be outrageous and offensive and morally wrong and scary without being equal to what Hitler did.

Using Hitler comparisons is a sign of intellectual laziness.
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sr_pacifica Donating Member (775 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Yup
Bush is fucked, but there are significant differences between him and Hitler. Just as there are between Saddam Hussein and Hitler, a comparison Bush loved to make. As you say Hitler had in mind territorial expansion and Saddam did not. He was satisfied with terrorizing his own people.
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-04 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #6
32. If that is the best defense that you have, then we are in trouble
Because, really, quite frankly, that is the only difference I can see.

And, honestly, the only reason I think Bush hasn't starting working and killing liberals, homosexuals, and minorities is because there is too much scrutiny now. He would have to go to great measures to hide it.
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the Kelly Gang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 10:37 PM
Response to Original message
8. only diference..Hitler was a war hero in WW1..Bush hid out in
the National Guard (some of he time)
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olddem43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. He hid out in the guard and then hid out from the guard.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
10. Hitler claimed he had to liberate the Poles
well that's a new one indeed.

Liberate the Poles from who? The Poles?
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
13. Bush is bad enough--comparing him to Hitler is stupid.
The SCOTUS bitchslapped Bush regarding Guantanamo--that never happened under Hitler.

Historically, it is a false comparison. People can suspect that Bush has Hitler-like intentions, but that is speculation.

Hitler was unique, and comparing people to Hitler is really a tired cliche.
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sr_pacifica Donating Member (775 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-04 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #13
28. Well said
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-04 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #13
34. wrong
History is there to repeat itself or learn from it.

The comparisons here are the eroding of our freedoms and the invasions of other countries.

The eroding of freedoms did not happen overnight but they slowly did over time. And it started in the name of national security. Hitler blamed the Reichstag fire on "communists" and shortly thereafter started eliminating personal freedoms. Such a comparison to 9/11 and the Patriot Act is valid.

The invasion of Iraq is also an equal comparison to the invasion of Austria, Czechoslovaka and Poland. Hitler made it a great case that German nationals living in these countries were in great danger and he invaded these countries to "save them". Gee sounds like saving the Iraqis to me. Hitlers reasons actually sound more valid because he was saving people from his country. Or so he said. In both cases, a lot of propaganda was put forth about the need to invade. Which later turned out to be exaggerated greatly.

Either way in these 2 cases, comparisons of Bush and Hitler are valid and worth studying.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-04 02:45 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. Sorry, but that's completely asinine.
Lots of leaders have invaded other countries. Big fucking deal. No dictatorship, no genocide=no comparison.

Factually, there is no way that Bush is on the same level as Hitler. People may speculate on what Bush may become, but as a matter of fact he is not anywhere near Hitler.
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NinetySix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 10:49 PM
Response to Original message
16. Bush, Iraq, oil / Hitler, Poland, lebensraum
Little else; both are reckless imperialism.
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stavka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
17. Iraq lacked an effective cavalry (NT)
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Bush was AWOL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
21. When Bush commits genocide
Edited on Thu Sep-23-04 11:15 PM by Bush was AWOL
on millions of people let me know. Comparing him to Hitler just makes one look foolish.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-04 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #21
35. Hitler committed most of his genocide much later
The final solution really took swing in the 1940s, Hitler started invading countries in 1936. Hitler took power in 1932.

So if the timelines are to be accurately compared, Bush would start really getting nasty midway through his 2nd term.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-04 01:28 AM
Response to Original message
33. dont forget Reichstag fire = 9/11
Also the invasion of Austria, Czechoslovakia, Poland.
He did them all because Germans were "suffering" there.

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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-04 06:34 AM
Response to Reply #33
38. "dont forget Reichstag fire = 9/11"
Very good.... very very good.

www.copvcia.com

Look for the excerpt from Crossing the Rubicon.
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-04 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. Concentration Camps
Inmates: Jews, Poles, Homosesexuals, Communists, Gypsies, Jehova's Witnesses, and disenters were among the groups.

Hitler did not think up extermination. He wanted these groups deported. The Final Solution was not his idea.

Not excusing Hitler but a lot of fiction has been spread around.

Stalin and Mao probably killed as many as Hitler's Regime did but hardly ever a mention of these guys.

The reason people get riled up with the mention of the name Hitler is because of the Holocaust. That is understandable. A lot of years went by before that event came into being.

Four more years of the Neo Fascists in Amerika could lead to events that most cannot or will not allow themselves to imagine.
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-04 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. Isn't it amazing how blind
>>Four more years of the Neo Fascists in Amerika could lead to events that most cannot or will not allow themselves to imagine.<<

the majority of the population can be? I guess we're better off having a society built with a poor educational system... makes things easier for those who would be gods.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. Whose final approval was necessary for the Final Solution?
Hitler bears full, direct, and total moral responsibility for the Holocaust.
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greekspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
42. I don't think Poland has as much oil as Iraq
But both Iraq and Poland are much weaker than their respective aggressors, and the mess both left and are leaving behind will take years to clean up.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
44. Hitler had 'Mein Kempf"....
Edited on Sun Sep-26-04 09:44 PM by AntiFascist
Bush has "My Pet Goat"...

In a way, Hitler was much more straightforward about his ideology and when he preached it you could tell the mesmerizing effect it had on people. Bigotted oppressors in the U.S. have much more insidious ways of dealing with "undesirables."

Never forget the black/white personality of the Reagan/Bush I administration. While Reagan is widely celebrated for his foreign policies in ending the Cold War, domestically his administration did very little to try and head off the AIDS epedimic which killed 100s of thousands. Ignoring the problem was consciously justified as "God's wrath." Currently, Republicans are backpedaling as AIDS has spread and is now wiping out significant portions of the worldwide population.

During WWII bigotry was largely responsible for keeping Japanese-Americans in internment camps, who posed no risk as spys or terrorists.

Notice how everyone in the media first protested the use of the term "occupation" to describe our presence in Iraq, now the term is used without thinking twice. Notice also that the use of term "Islamic radical" is ever so subtly being replaced by "Islamic".
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