The Pill & Pro-Life

[Guy_Montag]

Morning people,

I heard a brief report on the (UK) news this morning, saying that over the pond some pharmacists are refusing to fill prescriptions for the contraceptive pill. Since in exceptional circumstances a woman can conceive & the group of cells can die within a few days due to the pill.

I was wondering how widespread this is, has anyone here come across this problem? Or was it just a slow news day?

thank you,
G.M.

[DebJ]

1. I think this is a bunch of garbage.

I am a pro-lifer, but I think this statement about the pill is just ridiculous. As a pro-lifer, my alternative is responsible contraceptive measures.
I don't have time to argue the abortion issue, just responding to this story which I thought had been debunked.
Seems to be there are also times when a woman might conceive late and still lose the fetus, too, you know...

[Cheswick2.0]

5. this story has not been debunked

IT happens and is the perfect illustration of how insane and dictatorial the "pro-life" movement has become. I am very sorry to see that any woman has chosen to enable this attack on the civil rights of other women.

[REP]

7. Not Everyone Who Claims To Be a Woman Is a Woman

I keep that in mind when I read some of the more ... untruthful ... "pro-life" posts.

[DebJ]

32. I am a woman. And I had an abortion at 14. didn't want it

and then I cried for 10 years. My mother and doctor literally screamed at me until I signed the papers. Especially when I found out, after the fact, what a 20 week old fetus looks like. And when I found out my daughter died either a)by leaving her on a table to die of exposure/cold, or b)letting her suffocate inside me first...I was very upset. If women are to make a decision, they should know what it is they are deciding first. They did not give out that information in 1970 in Washington, DC. (one of the first legal abortions in this country).

I would not have responded to this, but I felt that was a personal attack, to say that a woman could not feel that way. Ditto for the person who said if I was really pro-lifer, I would not support contraceptives.....that sounds like a right-wing fundie type of 'logic'...I'm not used to that here. I thought we all supported free speech and the right to form our own opinions. Well, this is mine.

[REP]

37. I Do Not Believe Your Story

That is not how abortions are done. Your story is bogus. You may be telling the truth about having an abortion, but you cannot be correct about the details. Since fetuses gestate inside a woman's uterus, the chances of one suffocating inside you are rather slim. The chances of a 20 week fetus being removed intact during an abortion of that era are slim to none and it being left "on a table to die" is the stuff of propaganda films, not medical procedures. You may be able to convince the gullible with that tale, but not anyone with an ounce of common sense. I know women who had dangerous illegal abortions who tell less melodramatic tales than that one.

Your story does not convince me that everyone who claims to be a "pro-life" woman on an internet website is indeed a woman.

[REP]

6. Disingenuous or Uninformed

So-called "pro-lifers" have been trying to restrict access to contraceptive pills for years, and anyone who calls themself a "pro-lifer" and denies this is either not involved with the so-called "pro-life" movement or is being disingenuous.

Here is a recent article about pharmacists refusing to fill prescriptions for the the pill due to their religious belief that the pill is murder:

http://technicianonline.com/story.php?id=009767
Pharmacists do not let women choose
Posted: 08.18.2004
Michele DeCamp

Every month I park my little blue car at the pay lot off Dan Allen Drive and walk over to the NCSU Student Health Center. Once inside, I walk over to the prescription drop-off window and tell the nice woman behind the window that I need a refill -- of birth control. No alarms go off as I pick up the brown bag with my prescription and no one stares as I walk back outside carrying 28 pills that give me more than a 99% chance of avoiding pregnancy for another month. I have the right, as all human beings do since May 9, 1960 to buy these pills at my local pharmacy as long as I have a legitimate prescription from a doctor.

I'm just lucky that I don't live in Fabens, TX.

Fabens is a little town about 30 miles from El Paso, TX, and the women in this community of 8,043 are no longer able to receive birth control from the only private pharmacy within its borders -- because Medicine Shoppe owner Steve Mosher believes that birth control is a form of abortion and refuses to sell it. He's not alone either.

Pharmacists for Life International (PFLI) is an association that supports pharmacist professionals who feel the way Mosher does and refuse to sell birth control and the morning-after pill. Just as gynecologists can choose whether they want to perform abortions, pharmacists, under what is commonly called "conscience" protection, can choose what they are willing to disperse.

PFLI's motto is "Let the Gift of Medicines promote Life, not destroy Life!" Part of this organization's problem with birth control pills is that the drug, with its combination of oestrogen and progesterone, affects a woman's body in a number of ways to prevent pregnancy including preventing an embryo from attaching itself to the uterus. The Pill also thickens the cervix mucus so sperm have difficulty reaching the egg in the first place; so many times an embryo won't even be able to form, but if one does form then the Pill contains the ingredients to prevent the process from going further.

However, for those who believe that life begins at conception, the fact that the Pill would essentially help the body lose a formed embryo makes it another form of abortion. Therefore pharmacists like Mosher exercise their right to not sell it and instead advise their customers to go elsewhere. The only problem is that small towns like Fabens typically don't have another pharmacy and customers are then forced to drive out of their way to get their medication or resort to mail order methods.

Here's another article:

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/Living/birth_control_pharmacists_040406-1.html
Contraceptive Controversy
Should Pharmacists Be Able to Refuse Prescriptions for Birth Control?

By Jake Tapper and Jack Date


April 6 — When Julee Lacey, a married mother of two, tried to get her birth control pill prescription refilled at a CVS near her home in suburban Dallas, the pharmacist refused.

"She began to tell me that she personally does not believe in birth control, and that therefore she would not fill my prescription," said Lacey, who attends church regularly and is a former teacher of the year.

Lacey's situation could happen with increasing frequency, since many conservatives are seeking laws that would protect pharmacists' jobs if they refuse to fill any prescription they oppose on religious or moral grounds.

"Pharmacists should not be forced to do anything," said Karen Brauer, president of Pharmacists for Life International. "Pharmacists should be practicing pharmacy for the purpose and benefit of enhancing human health and human life."

Brauer and other conservative pharmacists do not believe birth control pills enhance human life — in fact, they see them as doing quite the opposite.

The Food and Drug Administration and American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology have defined pregnancy as beginning at the moment a fertilized egg is implanted in the uterine wall. But many conservatives believe pregnancy — and therefore life — begins at the moment of fertilization, up to a week before implantation. Since the pill, the so-called morning-after pill, and other hormonal contraceptives can take effect after fertilization, they see these medications as ending human life.

Currently, only two states — Arkansas and South Dakota — have laws protecting pharmacists from having to dispense medications they oppose, which supporters call "conscience clauses" and opponents call "refusal laws." Ten other states — Indiana, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Ohio, Rhode Island, Vermont, Washington and Wisconsin — are considering such legislation.


And that's with just a few moments of searching.

[Kinkistyle]

9. Probably Fundies, not Pro-Lifers.

Same as Bush. These people just don'T want people having sex unless for the explicit purpose of making a kid. Thats why they want sex ed out of schools and promote abstinence over condom use.

[REP]

16. "Pro-Lifer" = Fundie

See the articles I quoted, and do a search on the organization mentioned.

[spinbaby]

12. You got it...responsible contraceptive measures

What the far right can't seem to grasp is that preventing abortion is about making contraception available and affordable, about sex education (not just "don't do it"), and about support for parents of small children. Provide these and abortion will decrease dramatically. If you deny access to birth control, suppress sex education, cut out support for parents, and make abortion illegal, all you get is a lot of women getting illegal abortions.

[REP]

17. "Pro-Lifers" Think Contraception = Abortion

See the articles I posted, and do a search on the organization they mention.

[liberalitch]

27. How do you feel about sex ed. and family life taught in...

schools?

[athena]

33. Do you think that abortion should be banned

and women who have abortions should be put in jail (and perhaps even executed), along with doctors who perform them?

Or would you allow a woman to make up her own mind about whether she wants an abortion or not?

If you answered "no" to the first question and "yes" to the second, then you're pro-choice and should stop using intentionally-misleading right-wing terminology to describe your position. If you answered "yes" and "no", then you're anti-abortion (not "pro-life", which is a ridiculous word for someone who would rather have women die in back-alley abortions, self-induced abortions, or suicides, than to allow them the choice to decide what should happen to their bodies).

[lapfog_1]

2. Nope, happens here too

and was reported here at DU... say 4 months ago?

By the way... SHHHHH! Shush now, this is one of the "dirty"
little secrets that the Pro Life folks don't want to talk about.
Much like IVF. See, one type of pill (progesterone only) can
cause a fertilized egg to not implant in the uterus. IVF also
destroys many fertilized eggs as well in the attempt to cause
a pregnancy. Technically, all of this fertilized egg destruction
is really just another term for ABORTION. Whoops, who said that?
Shhhh. If life truly begins at conception (when sperm meets egg),
then a whole freakin lot of people are just having lots and lots of
abortions. So we better not talk about it. Nothing like logic
in a political or religious argument.

[LiberalVoice]

3. I've heard it happened on several occasions.

In one instance a pharmacist refused to fill her prescription and then refused to give her the prescription slip back so she could have it filled somewhere else.

It was a few months that I heard this happened last so I'm not sure how long its been...

[Lady Effingbroke]

4. It's happened several times here in Texas

The pharmacist has refused to dispense birth-control pills from a legal and valid prescription "due to their religious beliefs". I can't find links to the stories at the moment, but it has, indeed, happened several times here in Texas (in the DFW area and once in Austin, if I recall correctly). Pharmacists here (Texas) can refuse to to dispense the Pill due to their religious beliefs and there is little the woman taking the Pill can do besides find a different pharmacist wiithin the same drugstore who is willing to dispense the pills or patronize a different pharmacy. I believe all instances of this happening have so far been settled in favor of the Pill-taking woman, however, that may not always be the case in the future; check this guy out:

<snip>
President Bush has announced his plan to select Dr. David W. Hager to head up the Food and Drug Administration's (FDA) Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee. The committee has not met for more than two years, during which time its charter lapsed. As a result, the Bush Administration is tasked with filling all eleven positions with new members. This position does not require Congressional approval.
The FDA's Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee makes crucial decisions on matters relating to drugs used in the practice of obstetrics, gynecology and related specialties, including hormone therapy, contraception, treatment for infertility, and medical alternatives to surgical procedures for sterilization and pregnancy termination.
Dr. Hager's views of reproductive health care are far outside the mainstream for reproductive technology. Dr. Hager is a practicing OB/GYN who describes himself as "pro-life" and refuses to prescribe contraceptives to unmarried women.
Hager is the author of "As Jesus Cared for Women: Restoring Women Then and Now." The book blends biblical accounts of Christ healing women with case studies from Hager's practice.
In the book Dr. Hager wrote with his wife, entitled "Stress and the Woman's Body," he suggests that women who suffer from premenstrual syndrome should seek help from reading the bible and praying. As an editor and contributing author of "The Reproduction Revolution: A Christian Appraisal of Sexuality Reproductive Technologies and the Family," Dr. Hager appears to have endorsed the medically inaccurate assertion that the common Birth Control pill is an abortifacient.
<snip>

If this story is from a valid site and true (and I have no reason at this time, given the current religious climate in America to think that it isn't), then we are all in trouble.

http://www.coastalpost.com/04/09/15.htm

[RazzleCat]

8. This is just plain wrong

I have always supported a Dr.'s right to not perform abortions, or prescribe birth control. I even think its OK for Catholic Hospitals to not perform abortions. But a pharmacist refusing to fill a prescription. That's is akin to a clerk in an office supply store refusing to sell a brand of paper. Yes a pharmacist has the right and even the obligation to tell a patron of the possibility of a conflict in their medications, a generic alternative et al. But they do not have the right to refuse service on a legitimate prescription that a patron has given to them.

[Ilsa]

15. I think a doctor's office needs to make that clear before

a woman spends money, frequently private or insurance funds, on a doctor's appointment, though. Nothing would chap my butt more than having an appointment and exam and finding out I'm going to have to see another doctor and pay for it out of my own pocket because the first one wouldn't write the script.

[fudge stripe cookays]

14. Denton, too.

Was one of the first biggies, at the beginning of the year.

A girl was raped, and a friend took her to the Eckerd's on University for EC. They wouldn't give it to her. She had a prescription and everything. She was RAPED, fer chrisssakes!

Fortunately, a Walgreen's across the street would and did give it to her.

FSC

[Killarney]

10. This happens in the US as well.

In rare cases, a woman can ovulate while on the pill (it is not 100%) and therefore the pill becomes an abortificant. For this reason, some pro-lifers are also against the birth control pill.

I've heard in the past few years of pharmacists refusing to fill morning after pill prescriptions. Now, we're starting to hear the same about birth control pills. They're usually fundamentalist nutjobs.

I don't know what the law is regarding this and what recourse a woman has in this situation. I would hope that the pharmacist would be fired, but there might be religious protection laws, I don't know.

This is why I will never back a candidate that is backed by fundamentalists. If they want to live their life that way, that's 100% cool by me, but don't tell me how to live my life.

[noonwitch]

18. I know someone who got pregnant on the pill

She now has a really cute little girl.

[auburngrad82]

11. NPR recently covered this topic

They interviewed several pharmacists who said it was against their religious beliefs to fill prescriptions for the pill. So it obviously happens.

[fugue]

13. Prevention Magazine's contribution to the discussion

I saw this on another board back in July. (First three paragraphs quoted.)

In April, Julee Lacey, 33, a Fort Worth, TX, mother of two, went to her local CVS drugstore for a last-minute Pill refill. She had been getting her prescription filled there for a year, so she was astonished when the pharmacist told her, "I personally don't believe in birth control and therefore I'm not going to fill your prescription." Lacey, an elementary school teacher, was shocked. "The pharmacist had no idea why I was even taking the Pill. I might have needed it for a medical condition."

Melissa Kelley, 35, was just as stunned when her gynecologist told her she would not renew her prescription for birth control pills last fall.

"She told me she couldn't in good faith prescribe the Pill anymore," says Kelley, who lives with her husband and son in Allentown, PA. Then the gynecologist told Kelley she wouldn't be able to get a new prescription from her family doctor, either. "She said my primary care physician was the one who helped her make the decision."

[goddess40]

19. Out of business

In small town Marathon, WI, the local and only pharmacist was a young guy who inherited the business from his dad. He refused to dispense birth control pills. The little prick went out of business and I must say there were other circumstances that contributed to the downfall of his business. Now he works for Shopko and guess what, he has to dispense birth control pills as that is their policy. As for ovulating while on the pill it is very rare and usually can be traced to missed doses.

[Nadienne]

20. Maybe it's time for a major re-enactment of Lysistrata -

the Greek play where all the women of the community refused to put out until their men called off the war.

[Nadienne]

21. To play a little Devil's Advocate...

There are people who sincerely do believe that abortion is murder. If the pill even maybe allows an egg to be fertilized and ejected, it's abortion - murder. And by selling an instrument of murder, the pharmacist becomes complicit in that murder.

But then, if a guy with a gun uses his gun to kill someone, does that mean the person who sold him the bullets is also complicit in murder?

And, where is the line of "personal responsibility" drawn? As in, "If your life and the lives of your kids suck, that's your own fault and not mine, and I shouldn't have to do anything to improve your life or their lives; but if I sell you these pills and an unborn (and as yet unformed) baby is killed, then I am partially responsible for that murder..."

[REP]

22. If They Think It's "Murder" - Why The Rape/Incest Exception?

Why aren't they calling for the death penalty for women who seek abortions or doctors who perform them?

"Pro-lifers" don't think abortion is murder - their actions (or lack therof) show that very clearly.

[Nadienne]

26. Maybe they'll get around to that...

I tend to believe that they are "pro-life" because they are control freaks intent on punishing those who don't agree with their morality.

But there are some who really believe that this is murder. Or at least, I believe that they believe it. I know a few pro-lifers who don't support the death penalty. They weren't even in favor of this war. Unfortunately, their hot-button issue is abortion.

[Mandate My Ass]

25. The medical definition of pregnancy

is fertilization and implantation. Women pass fertilized eggs quite commonly and the pill is 99% effective at preventing ovulation.

It's not a pregnancy until the egg has implanted itself on the uterine wall. The pill can't be described as an abortifacient if it prevents implantation. It's still a contraceptive. EC does pretty much the same thing and it is erroneously described by the fundies as an abortifacient.

Of course the pregnancy police would disagree but like many other instances, they would be wrong.

[Nadienne]

28. Unfortunately, pro-lifers are against abortion because of the

moral definitions. And the very pushers of anti-abortionism also push creationism as opposed to evolution. To them, faith trumps science. Even my little sister, who attends a Catholic school, is brainwashed into thinking that science is anti-religion. And she, of course, would rather believe religion than science.

[Mandate My Ass]

29. That is unfortunate

I also bought into that narrow mindset during my twelve years of Catholic schooling but thankfully started thinking for myself soon after I got out. We were taught that it was a huge sin to think about sex so to plan for it by taking precautions was beyond redemption. Needless to say the joke around town was that our school should open a maternity wing because there were so many pregnant girls attending it.

The brainwashing didn't stick in my case and I wish the same for your sister.

[Nadienne]

31. I was lucky.

One of my priests was a fan of Star Trek, especially of the logical, unemotional Spock. Our school even had an hour of sex-ed once a month, to my mom's eternal dismay. But one cannot expect kids to make responsible choices as adults if one wishes to stick their heads (and their kids' heads) in the sand about the way the world works.

Still, it's hard to have a discussion with someone whose reasons for believing what they believe are based on someone telling them they ought to believe it.

I hope my sister can succeed they way you succeeded.

[skygazer]

34. In answer to your question

"But then, if a guy with a gun uses his gun to kill someone, does that mean the person who sold him the bullets is also complicit in murder?"

To some people, it means just that. After the DC snipers were caught, there was talk of a lawsuit against Bushmaster, the maker of the rifle used.

To me, that makes about as much sense as suing Ford Motor Company because they made the truck that the drunk driver who killed a family member was driving.

But there's not much logic in the world.....

[Nadienne]

38. I don't know much about guns...

Was the rifle used by the DC snipers a hunting rifle or an assault rifle? The purpose of an assault rifle is to kill people. That is what they're made to do.

Hunting rifles can be used to kill people, too, but that is not what they were created to do. Same with trucks. I agree: it's ridiculous to sue Ford because a truck driven by a drunk driver killed a person. And by that line of reasoning, it's equally silly to refuse to sell pills that prevent pregnancy just in case the pills discharge a fertilized egg.

[napi21]

23. Ever sincer the FDA Ok's the Pill, there have been statements lide this.

I find it quite amusing that, Publicly, there are lot of people who scream that any form of abortion or birth control is WRONG, but privately, the Pill is one of the most prescribed drug in the world! This is no new argument. I've sure heard it since day one of the approval!

[Guy_Montag]

24. Presumably these chemists

will refuse to fill any prescription that might harm an, as yet, unnoticed fetus.

After all I'm sure there are plenty of drugs that may cause a woman to miscarry in the opening days of pregnancy, without anyone being any the wiser.

[demigoddess]

30. This has been going on for years

Doctors refusing to write the prescription, pharmacists refusing to fill it. I heard Randall Terry president of Operation Rescue say they were against the pill and every other kind of birth control because they were abortifacients. I had a child with birth defects born in the seventies and people would come up to me and say bad things because the were convinced that handicapped children are the result of botched abortions. they rationalize everything.

[Nikia]

35. I think that losing a fertilized egg is common

I am not sure exactly how common, as I have heard conflicting statistics on this, but more common than the chance that an egg will be fertilized if a woman is correctly taking the pill. Those families, with double digit children, who do not use any birth control besides withdrawal or "natural family planning" are losing more "babies" than a woman who is on the pill for most of her reproductive life.

[demigoddess]

36. you have that right

quite a few eggs are fertilized but never make the implantation stage either because it was the wrong time or they did not have the 'stuff' to make it. But the doctors aren't putting that out much lately. Another thing that has been puzzling me. All these stories about Ob/ Gyn docs who can't deliver babies anymore because of their insurance rates rising too high. Well, then who is delivering the babies? the man on the street? I have a suspicion that ob s are getting out of the field because there are too many obs compared to the birth rate... another piece of repub propaganda.