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Cannot go to Canada when the draft kicks in? Go to Mexico.

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Cascadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 09:40 AM
Original message
Cannot go to Canada when the draft kicks in? Go to Mexico.
My advice to any young person is learn some Spanish and run for the border to the South. Go to Mexico or Costa Rica. Maybe even Venezuela. I am sure Hugo Chavez would let you in his country. And you have the money, flee to Europe, Australia, or New Zealand. There are alternatives to Canada. Just don't comply with this thing regardless of who gets into office.


John
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Flammable Materials Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
1. If you don't already have a passport, I'd recommend getting one.
Even if you don't plan to leave permanently, a passport is the mark of a global citizen.
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soothsayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #1
24. never shoulda' let mine expire
I gotta get it updated.
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comradebillyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
2. my advice, when the draft kicks in-do your duty
Edited on Sun Sep-12-04 09:49 AM by comradebillyboy
and do not run away.

your duty as a citizen does not change with the administration in power. if you don't like it vote agains the party in power. if we are a nation of law, then we don't get to pick and choose which laws we will obey. we cannot advocate lawlessness by the individual, and then complain when the government acts lawlessly.

i participated in anti-war (viet-nam) demonstrations while i served on active duty. but i served.
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Cascadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. The draft is wrong.
Edited on Sun Sep-12-04 09:51 AM by Cascadian
I do not believe in forcing somebody into military service. It is forced servitude and it is wrong. If the U.S. was directly attacked militarily then maybe that is a justification, but the draft is wrong and I will be damned to see more young men and women be sent to slaughter in Iraq, Afghanistan and, Iran, or wherever. We do not need it.


John
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Flammable Materials Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Don't worry, I'm not shirking my responsbilities.
Edited on Sun Sep-12-04 09:53 AM by Flammable Materials
I signed up for Selective Service when I turned 18, and I was prepared in the event that I got called up.

Now I'm nearly 40. I'd just like to move out of the country because I can tolerate the madness better when I can observe it from a distance.

EDIT: Now my daughter, on the other hand, they're not getting their hands on her.
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kayell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. What should german conscripts during WWII have done?
Edited on Sun Sep-12-04 09:56 AM by kayell
Was it their patriotic duty to serve? Was it their duty as citizens to invade another country that had not attacked them? Were they ones who somehow got to run away traitors?
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hobbit709 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. German conscripts
They had two choices

1. Be drafted

2. Get shot by the Gestapo along with their families
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kayell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. That isn't really an anwer. If a german conscript could have escaped*,
Edited on Sun Sep-12-04 10:06 AM by kayell
should he have? Or was it his duty to serve under whatever government was in charge of his country?

* I am sure there were at least a few who were able to make the choice, just as other germans managed to go underground or escape.
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jimshoes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. The youngsters in pre-war Germany
were groomed from an early age to become soldiers. The Hitler Youth was the main organization and the young girls and women were also being indoctrinated as well into the Fatherland "Thousand Year Reich" mindset..
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kayell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Yes, but many managed to avoid the brainwashing. Ex. The White Rose
Edited on Sun Sep-12-04 10:17 AM by kayell
Society members were of that age group, and members had been in the Hitler Youth.

If someone who realized that what the nazis were doing was wrong, was drafted, was it their patriotic duty to their country to go along and invade a country that had not invaded theirs?

Come on people, quit evading the question.

------------------------------

And add this question - Which is more important to follow: nationalist loyalty or individual consceince?
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #9
26. A bunch of teenies
got HUNG in my neighborhood. Our sidewalks have bronze commemorative plaques of each person was taken from his home and when. NEVER FORGET.
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comradebillyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. as bad as bush is, we are not nazi germany
maybe we can all decide which laws we choose to obey or disregard.

1 i disagree with our durg laws so it must be ok for me to cook meth and sell it to school kids
2 i disagree with our gun laws, so i can convert my semi automatic rifle to full auto
3 i think banks are rip-offs, so i can rob banks with a clear concience
4 if i think abortion is murder, i can bomb abortion clinics
5 the state has no buisness telling me how much i can drink, and i will drive no matter how drunk i am

so why not just have anarchy, just like afganastan
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kayell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. Now that is a ridiculous batch of comparisons
Edited on Sun Sep-12-04 10:27 AM by kayell
How about, in the days when it was illegal to teach a slave to read, would you have chosen to follow the law, despite whatever your concience told you?

Were the people who ran the Underground Railroad a bunch of lawless anarchists?

If it becomes the law that you must notify the authorities of suspected homosexuals and other malefactors, can I expect you to do your duty to the country and drop the dime on me?
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comradebillyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. when slavery returns i will engage in civil disobedienc
the folks you point to were prepared to pay for breaking the law, in order to force change. they did not run away to avoid the duty of citizenship.

and my comparisons are certainly no less absurd than yours

if you dont like a law stay and fight it in the courts, don't run away and let others pay the price for you
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kayell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. My examples were of breaking laws that harm people, yours were of breaking
Edited on Sun Sep-12-04 10:41 AM by kayell
laws in order to harm people.

How exactly does a conscript fight the draft laws at the same time as he/she obeys the order to invade another country?

If a conscript obeys orders and helps with the invasions, isn't he/she exacting a price from the people invaded?
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comradebillyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. the way mohamed ali did
civil disobedience-how many middle class kids is the administration willing to send to jail if there is massive resistance? if they run away they will be labled cowards and traitors.

your duty as a citizen is to obey the law or challenge it at home. civil disobedience is legit. the civil rights movement shows the way to challenge bad law in a legitimate manner. running away is simple cowardice
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. Not everyone has the luxery of fame and wealth.
Your argument is rediculous. If a law is ujust, you have no obligation to follow it. Individuals are not tools of the state. Nationalism is never a good idea.
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. You said...
that it is wrong to break the law. No matter what. Mohamed Ali broke the law...so it's OK to refuse to go, in some cases? That's crap. No one is bound by any law, EVER. Individuals have the right to do what is right, no matter what the government or anyone else says. The REAL cowards are the ones who go to Iraq or Afghanistan to oppress a population even when they don't want to or when they know they shouldn't go. When someone stands up against an unjust war, risking jail-time (or possible execution) for their morals, it is heroic and courageous if they do so by evading the system or by making a stand and paying the consequences. You are saying that it is cowardice to follow one's beliefs if they are contrary to "authority" (real authority is one's morals). That is absolutely wrong. It is true courage. If people refuse these heinous actions and leave, that is right. If people refuse and make a stand, that is right. The difference is the people who make a stand will have a greater effect.
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kayell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #17
22. If you would practice civil disobedience under certain circumstances,
then you would be choosing to break the law. Civil disobedience involves breaking the law. The people who staged lunch counter sit-ins broke the law of the times. Rosa Parks broke the law. The Lovings broke the law.

Since you earlier argued that all laws should be obeyed in order to avoid anarchy, to hold to your principles and remain consistent you would have to condemn the civil rights protestors whose civil disobedience broke the law.

Apparently you have decided to appoint yourself the ultimate authority of when it is ok to break the law.
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JimmyHoffa Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #2
29. Who is bringing the Draft back?
That is a good point about doing your duty and not breaking laws while accusing the Government of breaking laws.
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Quetzal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 10:16 AM
Response to Original message
10. Hola Mexico
o Chile?

I've seriously been considering going to Chile - El Presidente Fox is a good friend of Bush and might give in to his demands. Lagos on the other hand is different.
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Cascadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Chile would be nice.
I would love to visit that country.

John
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shrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. I don't know if they're such good friends anymore
Fox refused to go along with Bush's war, and there have been a few dust-ups since then.

The Mexican people themselves DESPISE Bush.
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Cascadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #14
21. That is what I am talking about.
Chimp Boy won't even invite him to his faux ranch in Crawford. I am sure the Federales in Mexico are not going to do anything about draft dodgers.


John
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gospelized Donating Member (580 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
18. my duty first
is to be a human. not a citizen. i will not go to war and kill people who don't deserve to be killed for some fake war i don't agree with. if our "president" wants me dead he can kill me himself.
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kayell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #18
23. Welcome to DU!
"my duty first is to be a human. not a citizen." Excellent short statement of real responsibility.
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gospelized Donating Member (580 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #23
30. thank you darling nt
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Ron Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
25. As I read these posts I'm even more convinced that an equitable draft
is better than the all-volunteer military that we have. It would be more truly representative of our country. We likely wouldn't fight these bullshit wars of choice.
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kayell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. That may be true in the case of a purely defensive military
(Switzerland as an example) but a draft once a war of agression is already in force is another matter.
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Ron Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. I don't know whether this war of aggression is going to be diminished by
attrition of available troops or not. I fear that more and more duties will simply be turned over to private contractors. However, I would much rather see unwilling draftees filling the ranks of the military that a bunch of "gung-ho" types who actually enjoy combat operations.
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