What will Putin do now? What should he do? What if your child died?

[HuskerDem]

I'll admit I do not know as much as I should about Russia and Chechnya. I'm afraid it will get worse. I'm afraid this is hell for all of them, I think a line has definately been broken.

[DrWeird]

1. Yeah, but who broke it?

This crisis was revenge. It wasn't preemptive.

[sidestreamer]

3. Revenge of what?

Did the Russians kill Chechan children at this magnitude?

[DrWeird]

4. Oh, I'm sure the Russians have killed plenty more...

then died at that school.

[sidestreamer]

6. Well, I don't want to take sides, but killing schoolchildren is in a

category of its own... one no one should take kindly to.

Now if there was a case of the Russians targeting and bombing schools or in one way or another killing dozens of Chechan children, I'd like to hear this.

[DrWeird]

10. Russians have killed plenty of Chechan schoolchildren.

They've had no qualms about attacking civilian populations. Children, the sick, the elderly, men, women... They just bomb the shit out of the whole city, schools included. And if you haven't been aware of it then you must have been living in a cave for the past ten years.

This whole "yeah, but they didn't just target the schools, those kids were just collateral damage" bullshit is pretty weak.

[lebkuchen]

16. Just as the US has done to Iraq, and Afghanistan

We've killed scores of children, and the only help we give to these countries' hospitals, in which children are dying daily of easily treatable illnesses, is a fresh coat of paint, for the cameras.

[telamachus]

27. links please.

To say that there have been attacks on civilians is true to say that the Russians have targeted these civilians is like saying the US has purposely targeted civilians in Iraq or Afghanistan is ridiculous.

The past 7-8 years in Chechnya has seen multiple cases where civilians have been killed but even though there is denial in some cases there is no evidence that they were targets

In regards to school children, I have found only one case when a school had shelling nearby. Th ecities that they bombed the shit out of were mostly evacuated.

[Aidoneus]

7. No, of course not

At a far greater magnitude. But that's something else altogether (or not).

[sidestreamer]

2. The Kremlin was never good at handling hostage situations

I've no idea what he should do either, but what happened at that school was the worst hostage rescue mission since the gassing of the Moscow theater a few years back.

[Journeyman]

5. I feel as though, once again, the terrible "ifs" accumulate. . .

and the road ahead is dark, unmarked, and descends precipitously.

[Tsiyu]

8. Russia's Waco

Or, How Not To Do It.

Unless you want to inflame people into waging a war against the perpetrators. But then, the hostage takers are base humans to involve children.

My faith in humans is being eroded more and more. It's 2004, and the best way we can communicate is by killing babies?

:wtf:

[sidestreamer]

9. I'm sickened too!

If this is how the Chechan rebels want to spread their cause, by killing defenseless kids, they should expect to be gutted alive with no remorse. They may or may not have been wronged in the past, but this... after seeing this it's hard to sympathize.

[DrWeird]

13. Actually, they probably don't care about the message anymore.

The Chechans have been massacred for years, and the message never got out. You, for example, appear completely ignorant of their plight.

So at this point they've probably just said, "hell with it, they killed my children, I've got nothing else to live for. I'm going to give them a taste of their own medicine."

[Tsiyu]

18. Then They Are What They Say They Hate

Had this argument over Palestinians strapping fake bombs to their babies in a protest march.

I understand pain, believe me. But I could never imagine terrorizing or killing a child to express it.

If this is how we've "evolved" I am not impressed.

[DrWeird]

19. So what would you do if somebody killed your kid?

Can you honestly say you wouldn't seek revenge? Isn't revenge what this thread is basically calling for?

Everytime there's some story of a crazy guy who hurts a kid there's DUers who express desires for vigilante justice, somebody actually said "lock and load" today regarding a child molestor.

That's the cycle of violence, and that's why you've got to turn the other cheek.

[Tsiyu]

20. Perhaps you could kill another mans child

I could not kill another mother's children. I worked five years in a children's hospital to save children. My child would not be redeemed by the act, nor would I be.

The matter of an adult gratifying himself at the expense of a child is another matter. But I still would not kill that man's child. Honestly, if one of my six were harmed this way or killed, I would kill HIM.

[DrWeird]

21. But you're bombing Iraqi children right now.

Out of some kind of revenge for 9-11.

At least your tax dollars are.

[Tsiyu]

22. And I have posted that this is wrong

And I am voting for a man who will hopefully put an end to that madness.

There is simply no way any human can justify harming innocent children. Does it happen? Hell, yes. But in this case, it was set up to cause the greatest outrage, just like Oklahoma City, just like 911. Just like what happenned at Little Big Horn when that idiot Custer and his cowboys descended on a camp full of women and children and elderly.

He was stupid.

This was stupid.

[DrWeird]

23. I was thinking more like what the Russians did to the Germans...

at the end of WWII. It was revenge for what the Germans did to the Russians. Whereas the Native Americans never really did anything to Custer. But that's just trivialities. It's all wrong, of course, I'm just explaining, not excusing. The only way to stop the cycle is to not cause anymore violence. Of course, the Russians aren't going to do that. Shit, they've already fucked up. The reason this was so bad was because they fucked up their "rescue" operation.

[Branjor]

24. Unfortunately...

In a world where violence is acceptable at all, it eventually includes everyone.

[chenGOD]

11. Does anyone else think this will facilitate Russia's entry

to the international war on terror?

[Tsiyu]

12. That's My Thought

As in : maybe this was orchestrated to do so?

[lebkuchen]

14. Get out your atlas and find Chechnya on the map

Tell me that that postage size stamp of a territory is worth all the deaths that Putin's "get tough" policy against Chechnya has instigated.

Isn't it time to negotiate with terrorists, and ask ourselves what it is that they want?

[DrWeird]

15. They want oil.

That's why the Russians won't give up Grozny without a fight.

As for the Chechans, they probably want to stop getting killed.

[lebkuchen]

17. Yesterday the Chechnyans wanted their people freed from prisons

and the Russians out of Chechnya.

Now we know what those prisoners and that territory is worth to Putin.

[Cuban_Liberal]

25. A brief history lesson, to put things in perspective...

I'm as apalled as anyone at the slaughter yesterday, but some historical context is always useful:

1830s Czar Nicholas I invades Caucasus, meets fierce resistance.
Top

1859 Russia conquers, incorporates Caucasus.

1917 Russian Revolution, Dagestan (including Chechnya) declares its independence.

1923 Bolshevik troops occupy Dagestan, divide region, creating Chechen-Ingush Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic.
Top

1944 Stalin deports thousands of Chechens to Siberia and Kazakhstan, on suspicion of collaborating with Germany.

1957 Chechen-Ingush republic reestablished. Chechens return home.

1991 Soviet Union collapses, 14 regions become independent nations. Dzhokhar Dudayev elected president of Chechnya. Dudayev declares Chechnya independent. Russian President Boris Yeltsin refuses to recognize Chechen independence, sends troops. Confronted by armed Chechens, troops withdraw.
Top

1994 Chechnya continues to assert its independence. Paramilitary bands accused of widespread kidnapping for ransom. Russia invades Chechnya; bloody war ensues.

1995 10,000 Russian troops occupy Grozny. Dudayev killed by Russian rocket. Total Russian force numbers 45,000. Chechens takes hostages.

1996 Chechens launch major counteroffensive, 5,000 troops invade Grozny. Unwilling to use maximum force and destroy Grozny to defeat rebels, Russians agree to ceasefire. Yeltsin orders troops withdrawn from Chechnya. Russian military humiliated. 70,000 casualties on all sides.
Top

1997 Chechnya won't accept Moscow's authority. Aslan Maskhadov elected Chechen president. Name of capital changed from the Russian Grozny, to the Chechen Djohar. Lawlessness in Chechnya continues.

1999 Terrorist bombs explode in Moscow and other Russian cities. Russian authorities blame Chechen paramilitary commanders. Chechen insurgents enter neighboring Russian territory of Dagestan to help Islamic fundamentalists seeking to create separate nation.
Russian troops recapture breakaway areas of Dagestan. Yeltsin sends nearly 100,000 Russian troops into Chechnya. Russians occupy much of Chechnya, pulverize Grozny, driving rebels into hills. 250,000 refugees.

2000 Despite Russian claims of imminent victory, war continues. Russians are unable to defeat rebels in mountainous areas. United Nations officials call for investigations of alleged human rights abuses by Russian troops and by Chechen rebels. New Russian President Vladimir Putin agrees to human rights investigation, continues war.
Top

2001 Russian president Putin appoints Stanislav Ilyasov as Chechen prime minister.

2002 On Oct. 23, Chechen rebels seized a crowded Moscow theater and detained 763 people, including 3 Americans. Armed and wired with explosives, the rebels demanded that Russian government end the war in Chechnya. Government forces stormed the theater the next day, after releasing a gas into the theater, which killed not only all the rebels but more than 100 hostages.

2003 In March Chechens voted in a referendum that approved a new regional constitution making Chechnya a separatist republic within Russia. Agreeing to the constitution meant abandoning claims for complete independence. While Moscow has presented the referendum as a way of bringing peace to the war-ravaged region, it is unclear how much power Russia would actually grant the separatist republic. A spate of Chechen suicide bombings followed throughout the year.

In September elections, Akhmad Kadyrov, the de facto Chechen president installed three years earlier by Russia, officially becomes president. Human rights groups as well as several nations questioned the fairness of the elections.

During 2003, there were 11 bomb attacks against Russia believed to have been orchestrated by Chechen rebels.
Top

2004 On May 9, Chechnya's Moscow-backed leader, Akhmad Kadyrov, is killed in a bombing. Six others are killed and another 60 wounded. The assassination undermines Russian claims that Chechnya has been growing more secure. A warlord, Shamil Basayev, claimed responsibility for the bombing.

On Aug. 24, days before the Chechen presidential election, two nearly simultaneous plane crashes in Russia kill 90 passengers; Chechen terrorists are suspected.

On Aug.29, another Russian-supported leader, Alu Alkhanov, is elected president of Chechnya with 73.5% of the vote.

On Aug 31, Chechen terrorist attack at a Moscow subway stop kills ten.

On Sept. 1, dozens of heavily armed guerrillas seize a school in Beslan, near Chechnya, and take hundreds of young schoolchildren, teachers, and parents hostage. The guerrillas, still unidentified, have not yet expressed a clear set of demands for the release of the hostages.

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/chechnyatime1.html

[telamachus]

26. It comes down to

Does a state have the right to leave the the republic? If so is the use of terrorism allowed?

Also does anyone know how many people in the state of Chechnya want sovereignty?