I don't think abortion should be used as birth control.

[niceypoo]

I have no problem with medical procedures like so-called "Partial birth abortion" because sometimes they are necessary. If a pregnant teen asked I would advise, but not insist, they deliver it. I just dont think its right to kill people unnecessarily. Im not particularily religious. Ive talked to many people, left and right, with simular views. Does that make me anti-abortion?

[TaleWgnDg]

1. wait . . . wait . . . wait !

It's the middle of the week, you are bored, and . . .

[papau]

28. be nice - niceypoo, no one favors abortion - pro-choice folks do not

favor abortion -

but the GOP controlled media likes to use the term "pro-abortion" because they know it is a lie and the media likes to lie about Dems

Pro-choice - the right to control your own body - at least until there is something that live outside your body - is just giving women a basic human right.

[niceypoo]

32. I am pro "Choice"

you just dont get it. I state a position and asked a simple question and I get flamed.

[papau]

34. No flame intended -I was saying "be nice" to TaleWgnDg - You are feeling

what almost all of us feel!

TaleWgnDg was teasing you and I thought it better if we were "nice" to niceypoo/

:toast:

:-)

[TaleWgnDg]

46. moi? teasing? aw, shucks . . .

:bounce:

[jdj]

74. Do you really not know if you are "anti-abortion" or not?

I'm betting that is a small focus group.

I could go to post a thread, put one word, abortion, in the header, and one word, abortion, in the message, and it would turn into a flame fest, guarnanteed.

you have hundreds of posts here. don't act so perplexed.

[babylon_system]

2. You have a right to make these decisions for yourself

If you are a woman.

[BlackVelvetElvis]

3. I know many people who have had abortions

None of them had it for birth control. It was an agonizing decision for them.
The reason they had an abortion was that they weren't ready for a child-they were poor, they were too young, they were in school. I know of no one who would take it lightly...does anyone else?

[K-W]

10. well, its tricky linguistics

in a sense abortion is birth control, but of course some abuse this fact to assosciate abortion with preventive birth control. They create the straw man of a woman who uses abortion in the place of a condom, which of course is utterly stupid.. The emotional, physical and sometimes monetary expense of an abortion is more than enough to dissuade any but the insane of such a stupid plan.

[okieinpain]

37. agree/disagree. it is not a easy decision, but I also know a couple of

individuals that seem to forget from time to time how baby's are made. I know several individuals that have had multiple abortions. I've always wondered how many of the abortions that are on the books, can be attributed to one person

[OKNancy]

4. What if you were 45 years old and married?

Do you think that woman can make her own decisions?

[niceypoo]

5. Yes

She can

[defoliate_bush]

48. Well, yes, but...

Wear a condom, dammit! As a woman, I believe every woman should have the right to choose, but we can't just have unprotected sex and then have abortions whenever we feel like it. That just sucks! My suggestion-if you're an older woman who has already had children, after you decide you've had enough, get your tubes tied! Always wear a condom. It's not that hard.

[Cheswick2.0]

63. abortion is legal

I'll have them whenever "I feel like it". You can't force me to "wear a condom".

[K-W]

6. No, that makes you pro-choice.

You have your preference and your morality, but you accept that others have thier own and it is thier right to choose.

[smiley_glad_hands]

7. Everyone has a right to their own opinion.

But only a woman should have a right to her body.

[xray s]

8. sounds like you are in the grey zone

everyone is entitled to their personal beliefs. It sounds like you would not force someone to carry a pregnancy to term, so I would not label you anti-abortion.

[niceypoo]

13. I am in a grey zone

Ive usually bowed out of abortion debates because it doesnt fit a "Category" in the standard debate. on almost everything else I am flaming liberal.

[defoliate_bush]

50. I disagree with you.

Is anyone actually pro-abortion? I don't know about you, but I think it is a serious and unfortunate thing when the circumstance calls for an abortion. I do, however, believe it's a choice, therefore, I am pro-choice. Nobody likes abortions, at least I hope not.

[Cleita]

9. If contraceptive knowledge is made available

to all the women of the world. If they have control over their bodies. If they have the means to obtain the contraception they want, there probably would be very little need for abortion. However, it should be available to anyone who needs the procedure.

[niceypoo]

14. I agree. if the right didnt have its head up its ass on contraception

there wouldnt be much need for debate other than emotional fulfillment (and luring single issue voters)

[Cleita]

67. Nice, you answered.

The right doesn't give a shit about women's issues. Abortion has been used as a method of birth control, historically, in the Soviet Union, a totalitarian regime much like we are entering today.

[unblock]

11. at issue is, should the GOVERNMENT decide this for you?

almost everyone agrees with you that abortion should be a last resort, and very few people actually knowingly use it as birth control.

most pro-choicers would also advise carrying to term, possibly for adoption. at a minimum, this option must be considered and not dismissed lightly.

but the political issue is, is this the woman's decision to make, or can the GOVERNMENT step in and say, "sorry, you're carrying this pregnancy to term whether you like it or not!" and possibly, "even if it kills you" or "even if the pregnancy was caused by rape or by incest".

[unblock]

21. to clarify my own position,

i don't LIKE that people might use abortion cavalierly, disrespectfully, or whatever. but i think it's horrible to bring governmental coersion into such an intensely personal and private matter.

coercing a rape victim into spending nine months carrying the rapist's spawn inside her is cruelty beyond words.

less dramatically, coercing a woman into carrying any unwanted pregnancy is just plain cruel.

if the fetus is viable, and it's feasible and practical to end the pregnancy and yet still keep deliver a baby, then i think that is preferred. but where abortion is the only way of terminating a pregnancy, then no government should deny it to any woman.

[Disandra]

12. *Sigh*

You know, I hear this argument that abortion is used as birth control all of the time.

Let's take a look at this.

First from the economic perspective:

First of all, abortions are expensive (at least a couple of hundred dollars) and no medical insurance covers it. Lets say this hypothetical woman uses abortion as a method of birth control. Let's say that she gets pregnant about five times a year. Abortions cost around $200-300 (at least where I live), which is about $1000-1500 a year spent on birth control. Can anyone (except maybe, the rich) really afford that? Especially when organizations like Planned Parenthood give birth control away for free?

Second, abortions are medical procedures. That means there needs to be some recovery time involved. That means the woman would have to take at least three days off from work (two to have the abortion (see below) and one for some recovery time). If she is an hourly-employee, with no sick time or vacation time (which, let's be honest, is not unusual), she looses three day's wages.

Third, the only clinics that perform abortions are few and far. Many women have to spend some time traveling to a clinic, filling out the forms and then have to go right back home for the "24 hour waiting" period. That is pretty darned expensive.

I'm not going to get involved in what the women goes through emotionally, because I don't want to be accused of being anti-choice.

Question: If abortion is indeed being used as a form of birth control by a segment of the population, do you really want the government to pry further into a woman's life to find this out.

Sorry...I'm a bit cranky today. :)

[niceypoo]

24. Im not making an arguement

Im stating my belief. I dont think abortion should be used as birth control. Its that simple.

[put out]

64. Have beliefs, and think this or that, and have opinions.

And then you let your beliefs and opinions guide you.

Respect other people. They let their beliefs and opinions guide them. Sometimes they use reason, logic, compassion, and facts, also. This is a good thing, and people should try it.

It is very simple if you will apply your beliefs and opinions to your life. Leave other people's decisions to the other people. See, then you don't need to worry about the other people. You could only worry about yourself.

[NC_Nurse]

15. Ever raise any kids?

I don't think it wise to advise people on a course of action unless you've been there yourself. Especially when it's unlikely that you will be around to help them see it through (I'm referring to the teen you said you would advise).

As long as you believe women should have the choice - you are not anti-abortion as far as I can tell. You do not believe it is the right choice personally, but you allow others their beliefs.

The majority of women do not use abortion as birth control although there are some who have repeated ones. If you want to help change that then fight for better contraception education and funding. Ironically it is often the same people who disapprove of abortion who don't want sex education and accessible birth control either.

[cally]

16. What does that mean?

The question is whether the government should legislate women's bodies. Whose morality and choice should the government enforce?

[Warpy]

17. An abortion typically costs about $200

It requires painful dilation of the cervix followed by scraping of the uterine wall. It is quite painful, even with local anesthetic around the cervix. It is entirely unpleasant.

No woman with a brain would ever use it as a primary means of birth control. It is used when birth control has failed, or for women who can't use hormonal means, when a selfish male has flatly refused to wear a condom. (Once he's necessitated a surgical abortion, you can bet his favorite pastime is ended.)

Pregnancy and childbirth are not benign conditions. There are significant threats to health, finances, social support and LIFE involved. Abortion can be understood as last ditch self defense against this risk.

Antiabortion laws only drive the procedure underground and into dangerous hands. Antiabortion laws kill women.

Clear things up?

[TransitJohn]

18. I don't think sex should be used for procreation

after all, there are far too many unwanted children on this Earth. In fact, sex should be for pleasure only. Anybody caught using it for procreation will have to adopt an unwanted child.

[smirkymonkey]

56. Good idea!

Let's start using up some of the children we already have!

[Cheswick2.0]

73. Perfect answer

!

[benddem]

If you believe

that medical decisions (of all types) should be made by you and your physician...then you are pro-choice. The stories about abortion being used for birth control are urban myths spread by wingers and fundies.

[Lex]

19. This is a red herring argument. Like the "welfare queen" gripe.

The repukes wanted to make everyone think that welfare was bad and should be stopped because of the "welfare queens" abusing the system. So maybe there were some of those, but in large measure welfare really helped people--namely children in poor households, etc.

Showing an exception to the rule and making it the reason why something should be stopped is illogical.

Same with this "abortion shouldn't be used as birth control" argument.

JMHO.

[Gelliebeans]

20. the subject of choice

The national organization of women have been working tirelessly for years on the right of choice. Its not whether you are pro-abortion or anti-abortion it's whether you think that a woman should have a choice. Nobody knows what a woman may feel and do if she finds herself in a situation where she is faced with this decision. I would say that not all things are black and white and she and her doctor should be the "only" ones making that decision for her best interest. A lot of us can only speculate what we would do in that situation. I, for one am glad I have a choice, whether I exercise that is irrelevant, it is available to me and no governing body should be able take that away. I'm not an advocate for abortion but an advocate for choice. That is the greater question here.

[radwriter0555]

22. I think it's a perfectly safe and acceptable method of birth control.

it works fine, the outcome is reliable, and when all else fails, it simply WORKS.

Sure beats the alternative.

[defoliate_bush]

54. Hmmmm

I think you're very wrong on that one. For one thing it's really expensive. Also, you can use protection and save a life and a lot of money at the same time. It can also be dangerous. It isn't that rare for a woman to die in an abortion. While I am pro-choice, I frown on abortion and would reccomend it as a last resort.

[radwriter0555]

57. of course it's a last resort and a real pain in the ass, but it works.. It

is safe, and definitely effective. It's legal.

Definitely better to avoid the problem, I recommend the IUD myself, but there is nothing wrong with it. It's just a medical procedure... folks getting all sentimental about it tend to wax sentimental about things far less based in reality, it seems.

[Djinn]

61. I don't get this argument

If by not having an abortion you are "saving a life" then presumably you beleive that having an abortion is taking one? Also how can you save said "life" by using contraception - if you do the "life" doesn't exist and can't BE saved.

If you do beleive it's "life" it seems a weird thing to support - it's like the view that abortion should only be available in cases of rape or incest, if it's KILLING then it shouldn't be OK just because it's the killing of a rapists genetic offshoot - how fair is that??

BTW - hardly ANYONE uses abortion for "birth control", it's a really stupid, expensive, physically painful and hassle filled method of contraception. I really don't get the point of this post or this viewpoint which is widespread - if you think abortion should remain legal then that's really all there is to it, the reason why a woman has one isn't really any of your business at all.

[Cheswick2.0]

65. abortion is much safer then child birth

you can recommend all you want, but if I don't feel like "saving a life" I won't.
I think there are a lot of us who like to use it as a first resort.

[Eloriel]

23. You know that's a rightwing argument, don't you?

What is the definition of birth control? Unless for medical reasons (for the mother), ALL abortions are birth control -- you're preventing birth from happening.

Do you REALLY think there are that many women who are so shallow, vain, flip and irresponsible to use something that isn't exactly fun to go through INSTEAD of birth control?

I'm so sick of the dim (insulting) view of women held and pontificated by some people here at DU, too often (but not always) men.

[niceypoo]

27. Im not the issue

"I'm so sick of the dim (insulting) view of women held and pontificated by some people here at DU, too often (but not always) men."

so Im "Dim"?

[put out]

58. No one knows if you're "Dim".

I believe the poster was saying that holding the position that women have abortions vs. using birth control would indicate a dim (insulting) view of women and a woman's character.

I don't think the poster was calling you, personally, a dim (unintelligent) person.

[alittlelark]

25. I'm over 40, and hubby had a vasectomy 8 years ago

If, perchance I got pregnant, there is no question that I would get an abortion. The last one was life-threatening.

So, I, for one, would use it for 'birth control'.

[walldude]

33. My wife had six miscarriges

so we adopted a child(I also have 2 from another marrige). Abortion is not a form of birth control. There are much better ways to protect against unwanted pregnancies. That said, I am totally pro-choice, and believe that people need to choose what is right for them. Making abortion illegal will not decrease abortions it will just make them alot less safe for lower income people. Another battle in the class war is the way I see this issue. The far-right preaches abstinance, the Catholics don't believe in abortion or birth control. Why is it that the religious right and the government would want to take away the most naturally pleasurable thing in the world that doesn't cost a thing? Somethings fishy about the whole abortion debate.

Clinton said it best: "Abortion should be legal, available, safe and rare...

[alittlelark]

55. For me it would be a form of birth control

just as a matter of semantics.

I do not wish to carry another child (over 40)
The last one almost killed us both
Husband had a vasectomy
-generally they work.......but
If i got pregnant I would have an abortion, and it would be for Birth Control.

.oh, and for the sake of my kids I would have an abortion.
-they need their mommy.

[skooooo]

26. Then don't use it as such....

...and keep your nose out of everyone else's business.

[niceypoo]

30. It looks like its impossible to hold a personal view and not get flamed.

"...and keep your nose out of everyone else's business." Having an opinion is putting "My nose into others peoples business"? how am I putting "My nose into others peoples business"?

[skooooo]

47. not a flame..just my opinion

...take it any way you choose.

[UdoKier]

29. A lot of people feel that way - but is that your priority now?

A lot of already-born kids with families, lives, loves, hopes and dreams are dying EVERY DAY in Iraq for no damn reason at all.

Is this the best time to drag up this tired wedge issue AGAIN?

Or would it not be better to address your concerns to the Kerry administration once elected?

[niceypoo]

31. I have no plans on "addressing my concerns"

I simply stated my view

[UdoKier]

36. Well, I personally think you are entitled to...

and I don't even disagree, but this is a divisive issue, bound to cause flames.

Personally, I'd rather stick with topics that enhance our unity against the giggling murderer. There will be plenty of time for topics like this after this filthy regime is gone.

But hey, it's your thread. Enjoy.

[niceypoo]

35. Since its obvious that stating an opinion out of leftwing mainstream

here makes a person "Flamebait" Im not commenting on this thread anymore. You people want to paint me as some sort of anti-abortion "Activist" even though Ive stated Im not against abortion and I dont even debate the subject. So much for having a different opinion on the DU.

[walldude]

38. I've been flamed here for other opinions as well

you just have to take the good with the bad, and try not to take it personally, the way I see it is, with the Freepers you are either with them or against them. I believe as liberals our "job" is to have a difference of opinion and be able to discuss it rationally. I think most people that frequent this site are like that, but emotions are running really high these days and things tend to go overboard... such is life. IMHO you have a sound logical opinion and shouldn't be afraid to express it ;)

[UdoKier]

39. I don't think you're any of those things.

And I personally disagree with those who will undoubtedly hit alert or otherwise try to silence you.

The fact is you are touching on what is a really touchy subject for some people.

I've been in the same boat - flamed for being "disruptive" when that was anything but my intention. It sucks, but on some level you knew this might happen, right?

Personally, I think there SHOULD be a special forum strictly for wedge issues, etc, where people can hash such things out between one another without disrupting GD. But I imagine that I am in a distinct minority who think so.

We are free to post here or not post here. When I want a bit more variety of opinion, I head on over to the Yahoo boards. When the right-wing bile and filth there gets too much for me, I'm always relieved to be back in the peaceful, protected waters of DU.

Good luck to you and take care.

[arwalden]

40. You're Smart Enough To Know A Hot Button Issue When You See One

... you really ought not have been surprised at any strong reactions. Try not to take it personally... that's just the way it is.

-- Allen

[ulysses]

42. please.

If you're going to willingly wake the dragon, don't complain when you get toasted.

I dont even debate the subject.

Why are you bringing it up?

[Zomby Woof]

41. Popcorn so nice/I post it twice

We haven't had an abortion thread
All week, the very sad Zomby said
Let's stir up GD, it was getting dead
Never mind helping Kerry turn the red
States into blue, to kick Bush on his head

I had some sperm escape me I named it Fred
Because every sperm is sacred, Monty Python said
If this were a poem about reggae, I'd say natty dread
But reason sinks like partial popcorn full of lead
When another innocent DUer starts an abortion thread

I say the women has the power, the right, and I said
You try to ruin her freedom, for which many of them bled
Too many of you claim progressive, making me see red
For you wouldn't know freedom if it shit down upon your head
On the subject of human rights, you have so little cred

--- ZW

[loyalsister]

43. Are you "pro-divorce?"

Probably not, but as a reasonable person, I would guess that you realize that the state has no business forcing people to continue stay married if the relationship is unhappy\unhealthy.
Necessary evils that ultimately may serve to protect people is what abortion and divorce have in common.
Sarah Weddington used that analogy in her Book "A Question of Choice," and I think it's totally appropriate.
Noone seeks out the situations that lead them to consider those options, but people often find themselves not knowing what they would have done without such choices.
The fact is, noone is "pro-abortion anymore than anyone is "pro-divorce." It's a terrible choice for a woman to have to make and she is not happy to be there making it. The anti-choicers, however have never been inclined to want to help reduce the numbers by increasing access to contraception. With Emergency Contraception, we have an opportunity to make huge inroads in reducing the number of abortions. Who's standing in the way of that? Every pro-choice person I know supports the FDA recommendation to sell it OC. The same can't be said about the anti-choice people I know.

[defoliate_bush]

44. There's nothing wrong with your opinion

I don't think anyone in their right mind would encourage abortion as a means of birth control. We don't LIKE abortion. I just think that it should be an option as part of womens' rights. I think that if the abstinence program in schools would be replaced by classes on how to have safe, protected sex, we wouldn't have as much of a teen pregnancy problem anyways, thus reducing the need for abortions.

[Ready4Change]

45. Life? Choice? Niether. I'm Pro-Birth Control.

Multiple layers of birth control, preferably. With abortion being legal and available as only a last, and regretable, resort.

The problem I have with many Pro-Lifers is that they don't look at what their intent means when applied world wide. The same anti-abortion folk are also largely anti-birth control. That doesn't make them pro-life. That makes them pro-overpopulation, pro-starvation, pro-plague, pro-economic hardship, pro-miserable quality of life...

Sorry, I suspect I'm ranting to the choir here.

but rrrrrrr...

[defoliate_bush]

52. Amen!

My thoughts exactly

[JohnDoe1]

49. No Problem

I don't like abortion per say. But, I don't think I should have the right to tell a women what is right and wrong.

[enki23]

51. abortion doesn't "kill people"

when it's legal and safe. once again, for the cognitively challenged, fetuses are not "people" in any meaningful sense of the word. also, abortion has no use *BUT* as "birth control." you get an abortion to avoid giving birth, whether for the health of the mother or otherwise.

[jdj]

76. now that is a good point on the birth control issue.

I don't see how anyone can argue that.

I do belive you kill a physical being,but the soul is ancient, this particular body is just the contemporaneous manifestation.

I sure don't have the right to tell someone else how to believe, because probably many would view the above statement as nuts.

But it is important to me because i don't think enough people respect the sovereignty of a woman over her body, regardless of the terminology used. It's apples to apples to me.

[slinkerwink]

53. fucking stupid statement----abortion is NOT used as birth control

[kiahzero]

59. Begging the question

You presuppose abortion is "killing people." That's not a valid premise, since that's part of the thing under debate.

[Cheswick2.0]

60. I think abortion should be used as birth control

The later in the pregnancy the better.

[kimchi]

62. Me too! Me too!

I can't WAIT to get pregnant again and go through all the aches and pains and cravings, etc. etc. and then wait to the ninth month to abort. Did you know I'm a teenager addicted to crack and on welfare too?

YOU MADE ME SNORT WATER THROUGH MY NOSE, CHESWICK!

Not a funny subject, but...

[Cheswick2.0]

71. Fabulous, ABORTION make mine a double

[Heddi]

66. Good for you. Don't use it as birth control

see if anyone cares one way or another.....

BTW--I don't think shoe-horns should be used for impromptu soup spoons. Isn't that great for me?

Note to self: Make sure to make a post outlining every choice I make in life.

Example:

I don't think that I'd ever buy an uncomfortable chair! Hooray!

I don't think that it's a good idea to chew on bic pens because they sometimes explode.

I don't think that I like it when the elastic goes in my underwear and makes them baggy.

---

Isn't that the great thing about making decisions for yourself? You don't want abortion used as birth control...great. Don't use it as such. I don't see why you have to tell all of DU about it, though :shrug:

[Zomby Woof]

68. Heddi!

Long time no see!

And a rockin' good post to welcome you back with. :hi:

[Heddi]

78. Hey ZW!!! I've been busy

Mr. Heddi and I are fixing to move to...get this..YAKIMA!!! I got accepted to nursing school out there so what the fuck, ya know!? It's just two years.

Luckily my school mascot is the Yakima Yaks! I feel like I've finally made it in the world now that I can proudly call myself a YAK!

wahoo

[Cheswick2.0]

75. My list of things other people shouldn't do

I don't think women should streak their hair.

I don't like it when people bring their rude children to my house and let them ruin my VCR by sticking pop tarts in it.

I don't think anyone should watch the WB network.

I hate it when people drive slower than 55 on the highway. But who am I too tell them to go faster? :shrug:

[leesa]

69. So how many of the resulting children are you planning to adopt?

Will you take in 10, 12? This isn't Israel and Egypt in the year zip, when there was so much space they had to extoll people not to waste seed.
Accidental, unwanted pregnancy happens and it is a cruel God that would make everyone suffer for it because of bad interpretations of ancient social laws written by control-freak scribes.

So how many will you adopt?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

70. I don't think memes should be the basis of debate

I think the "abortion as birth control" meme totally ignores the real issues facing a woman who is pregnant:

Can I raise a child?
Do I want to bring one into this world at this time?
Can I afford it?
Am I physically, mentally, fit to carry it full term?
and a whole host of other issues that are neatly wrapped up by simple minds as representing "birth control"

[TheDonkey]

72. I don't think so either, but I don't think a fetus is a people personally

It's a chain of cells which is dependent on the mother for it's life and she truly has a say whether that chain has the chance of becoming a person.

I think women should use abortions responsibly and safetly and many many do. That choice should be protected.

[Cheswick2.0]

77. I don't think people should chew with their mouth open

:shrug: