Where do conservatives get this from?

[dwckabal]

From Justice Moore in Alabama to Jerry Falwell, conservatives and religious leaders constantly claim that the United States is a Christian nation, founded upon Judeo-Christian principles and that this country must acknowledge God as a higher authority when it comes to the laws of the land.

However, it has been shown again and again that even in cases where the founding fathers of this country were overtly religious, they in no way intended for the Bible to reign supreme over the Constitution. The Declaration of Independence, written by Thomas Jefferson (a "semi-religious" person) uses the words "Creator", "Nature's God", and "Supreme Judge". If he meant "God", why didn't he just write "God?" Because he, as well as the other founding fathers, wanted to make sure that religion was kept out of government.

I could go on and on with examples, but I guess my question is, why do people still believe that this country is a "Christian nation"?

In the Constitution, the swearing in of the President is enumerated as follows:
Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:--"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

No "so help me God" that I can see! I just get so frustrated when people say this country was founded on the 10 Commandments!

[UnAmericanJoe]

1. Quite simply

Because they WANT it to be so.
Facts and history be damned.

[sujan]

3. he who Controls the Past

Controls the Future. he who Controls the Present controls the past.

They are trying to achieve that...and due to a complacent populace, they are almost suceeding in it..

[jody]

2. Among many writers, Franklin Steiner's early 20th century work

"The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents" remains one of the best researched. Steiner says nine of the first ten presidents were not orthodox Christians. After leaving office, Jackson was baptized into the Presbyterian Church.

Anyone who cites the Declaration of Independence and its use of the phrase "Nature's God" as meaning orthodox Christian dogma is incredibly stupid.

[roughsatori]

7. Thanks Jody for mentioning "The Religious Beliefs of Our Pres"

I was not familiar with the book, but have just written it in my reading list. Thanks it sounds very interesting.

[jody]

9. A partial copy of Steiner's book is at the following link

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/franklin_steiner/presidents.html

[PurityOfEssence]

16. Besides that, the Declaration of Independence is just a position paper

It has no legal significance. The Constitution is the law, and it contains no mention of a supreme being. They repeat over and over that Article One is just to keep any one religion from having an upper hand, but the intent is obviously to keep government from endorsing the very concept of religion. Quite impressive for the time.

The most compelling refutation is the Treaty of 1797.

[coda]

4. " No "so help me God" that I can see! "

For a good reason.

"No religious Test shall ever be required as a qualification to any
Office or public Trust under the United States"

(U. S. Constitution, 1787, Art. 6, Sec. 3).

[patrice]

5. They get it from FEAR . . .

Human biology is the basic deal. People are confused and afraid. That is a very uncomfortable experience, so they seek relief of various kinds. Associations with power and authority are quite helpful, but I'm sure you can think of many other examples. One type of response is characterized by all of the acouterments of religion. (This is why, ironically, we have been warned not to "... have strange gods before me.")

Behaviors that help a person process their fear become addictive. The more intense the experience, the stronger the addiction becomes. If you happen to be kind of unaware, you think you're experiencing the "holy Spirit" or something. Not that spiritual experiences don't actually happen, just that they aren't as common as a lot of folk (who for their own reason$) would have you believe.

[dwckabal]

6. I agree and understand, but

how can we make people understand that you can't have freedom of religion without freedom from religion? All the religious right does is make it look like liberals and Democrats want to restrict freedom of religion, when that is simply not true. What kind of campaign would it take to make people understand, or is that simply expecting too much?

[Athame]

8. "Behaviors that help a person process their fear...

become addictive"

Well, that is the best explanation yet of my DU addiction!! ;-)

[bpilgrim]

10. we are a christian nation, just look at the polls...

but we certainly have a seperation of church and state clause in the constitution and it should be apparant to everyone that it was deliberate attempt to prevent just what these fools are trying to accomplish today.

they would have a better case legally, imo, if they argued to update todays constitution to reflect widespread american beliefs, accordiing to the polls anyways...

:scared:

peace

[jagguy]

11. not exactly

it was an attempt to prevent the sort of control the Roman church had on most Eurpean nations and the sympathetic version present in England.

This country was founded on Christian principles but in no way wanted to allow the Church heirarchy to have a direct voice into government. It was perfectly fine to have the individuals who served in government experss their values however. There was also much debate on this matter as the Constitution was being written. Compromise kept specific wording out. Check out the state constitutions and you'll see which states thought what about mentioning God directly in the Constitution.

[The Icon Painter]

13. Separation of Church and State

I do agree with your comments and wonder if you are as puzzled as am I by the strange change in the Southern Baptists. When I was a child here in the south, the Baptists were the most vocal of all the protestants in insisting on the separation of church and state. They did not, under any circumstances, want the government messing in their autonomy. They greatly prided themselves on their independence from any governing body, even one composed of their own co-religionists. Theirs was "the priesthood of all believers". Now, it seems they cannot embrace a theocracy fast enough or closely enough. Is it that their relative dominance of the protestant groups in this country has infected them with the virus of power or have they basically changed and abandoned the faith of their fathers?

[jagguy]

14. I believe that it goes back to the Anti Abortion gameplan

genned up some years back.

They came to realize that the only way to achive their goal was to infiltrate right wing politics and make that agenda happen in that way. It really hurt the right (it killed Bob Dole's chance) and is still working at achieving results.

They try to get over this by avoiding any direct ties but you are right to note that it reamins a huge departure for them.

[PurityOfEssence]

17. Well...we're a nation with a bunch of Christians in it...

It's sad that certain members of the majority are so embarrassed and threatened by anyone not knuckling under to their "truth" that they have to shove it down our throats, wailing about their persecution as they attempt to persecute. Whassamatta? Does a perfectly healthy, happy and functioning human without their belief throw fear or doubt on the truth of their truth? Or is it just that having demons walk among them is too much? Booga-booga.

Organized religion is inherently anti-democratic: non-believers are inferior or at least granted less rights. That has no place in a constituent republic.

It's the little things that hurt. The expressions of "ceremonial deism" that we're being told we're so shrill to every contest are the selfsame excuses used as precedence to go to the next step. We never should have allowed "In God We Trust" on coinage, bills or the Capitol wall. Having done that, it used as justification for further encroachment.

[yowzayowzayowza]

12. Excellent discussion over here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=220211

[Ivory_Tower]

15. Some trivia

I was just looking at the "so help me God" thing the other day, and found out that George Washington added that phrase on his own when he took the oath of office, and that subsequent presidents kept the phrase out of tradition. Only one president that I can think of did NOT add "so help me God" -- Franklin Pierce. Pierce is also the only president who did not take an "Oath", but instead took an "Affirmation" ("I do solemnly affirm...").

Oddly enough, one of Pierce's descendants is...G.W. Bush.

Y'know, I haven't been paying attention -- when the Chief Justice swears in the president, does he say "so help me God"? Technically, I suppose he shouldn't since it's not part of the constitutionally-mandated Oath/Affirmation.

(Boy, what I would give to see the next president take an Affirmation of Office!)

[ret5hd]

18. EXCELLENT IMPORTANT READ...

The conservative leadership has very precise goals. I am sure this has been posted before, but...

http://www.harpers.org/online/jesus_plus_nothing/?pg=1

snip:
The Family is, in its own words, an "invisible" association, though its membership has always consisted mostly of public men. Senators Don Nickles (R., Okla.), Charles Grassley (R., Iowa), Pete Domenici (R., N.Mex.), John Ensign (R., Nev.), James Inhofe (R., Okla.), Bill Nelson (D., Fla.), and Conrad Burns (R., Mont.) are referred to as "members," as are Representatives Jim DeMint (R., S.C.), Frank Wolf (R., Va.), Joseph Pitts (R., Pa.), Zach Wamp (R., Tenn.), and Bart Stupak (D., Mich.). Regular prayer groups have met in the Pentagon and at the Department of Defense, and the Family has traditionally fostered strong ties with businessmen in the oil and aerospace industries.


snip:
During the 1960s the Family forged relationships between the U.S. government and some of the most anti-Communist (and dictatorial) elements within Africa's postcolonial leadership. The Brazilian dictator General Costa e Silva, with Family support, was overseeing regular fellowship groups for Latin American leaders, while, in Indonesia, General Suharto (whose tally of several hundred thousand "Communists" killed marks him as one of the century's most murderous dictators) was presiding over a group of fifty Indonesian legislators. During the Reagan Administration the Family helped build friendships between the U.S. government and men such as Salvadoran general Carlos Eugenios Vides Casanova, convicted by a Florida jury of the torture of thousands, and Honduran general Gustavo Alvarez Martinez, himself an evangelical minister, who was linked to both the CIA and death squads before his own demise.




much much more.

also tied in with meese, reagan, et al.

if you haven't read this in the past, do so now.