Good or bad move by Kerry?

[ilpostino]

From Mo Dowd:


John Kerry is going to announce his candidacy for the presidency next week (who knew?) standing in front of an aircraft carrier.

That's a relief. If he had used the usual town square or high school gym backdrop, what would we have thought about his manliness?

Dropping his heroic military service into almost every speech has not been enough, nor has mounting his Harley in a bomber jacket whenever a TV camera's near.

Three Purple Hearts, a Silver Star and a Bronze Star in Vietnam should trump one lackadaisical Texas National Guard record, but we live in an age when "reality" is defined by ratings. So the issue is illusion: can Senator Kerry match President Bush's ability to appropriate an aircraft carrier as a political prop?

Mr. Kerry, a Boston Democrat, had thought about announcing in front of a warship, wrote The Boston Globe's Glen Johnson, but felt the need for something bigger, to stage a more chesty confrontation with Mr. Bush.

more...

[VolcanoJen]

1. Oh sheeeeeesh John. Don't do it.

How tired. How disappointing. How incredibly counter-productive.

Can this report possibly be true? I can't believe in a million years that Kerry's handlers would support this foolish move.

John Kerry is a bonafide war hero by common definition, and certainly doesn't need to stand in front of an aircraft carrier to prove it.

What is he thinking??

Here's a better idea, Senator Kerry. How about standing in front of the National Debt Clock and announcing? Now that would send a message.

[Eloriel]

4. I could't agree more

Sadly, Kerry is showing his narcissism as one of his stronger character traits.

Eloriel

[molly]

15. LOL - John Dean is not narcissist? HAHHAHA!!!!

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[salin]

43. The WH Lawyer under Nixon

and how the heck did he get into the conversation ;-)

[AWD]

71. Not sure

I'm not sure if John Dean is a narcissist.

But I am sure that with all the attacking you've done over the past few months, you'd have at least figured out that the man you are attacking is HOWARD Dean.

[molly]

97. I started attack mode about 3 weeks ago because this

board was flooded by very nasty aggressive Deanies - up until that time, Dean was my second choice. I'm sorry for the slip of the keyboard, but I'm sure everyone here knew exactly who I meant and it certainly brought out the best of the boppers.

I said then, and I'll say it again - his campaign has turned a lot of potential supporters totally off.

I would like you to do a little research for yourself on my past posts concerning Dean - instead of you not thinking for yourself. You think you've hitched your own campaign to a star, but you haven't.

Your post reflects the Joe Trippi attack mode and it makes me sick and won't do a thing for your campaign.

[Larkspur]

108. John Dean is not running for President.

He has been writing publicly that Bush is on the road to Impeachment or should be.

If you are referring to Howard Dean, Dem nominee for President, as a narcissist, then you are mistaken. I've met him twice personally and there is not a whiff of male chauvaism or machismo in the guy. He is a gentleman towards us grassroots types, but he will challenge those, no matter which party they belong to, who have power, be they President, senator, congressperson, because those who have power have a moral responsibility to use it for the benefit of all.

What Howard Dean despises the most, is leaders who abuse or neglect to use their power to further their own political ambitions at the expense of the welfare of our commonwealth. That is not narcissism. That is what dissent is all about.

[Jawja]

49. I like John Kerry

and think he would make a very capable President.

I wish he wouldn't do this. It smacks of desperation and Kerry is NOT desperate.

[DJcairo]

127. Jawja--Announcing in front of a carrier is a bold poltical move

designed to advance a southern stragedy. Kerry handles are thinking about this possible scenario.
Iowa: Dean 1st, Gephard and Kerry close behind
NH: This is the big question...Dean first Kerry a close second means SC is a must win for Kerry. Put another way, Kerry first with Dean close behind means a Kerry in win in SC shuts out Dean. ONce the primaries shift to bigger states on teh coast Dean would be finished, especially if he;d only managed a first place win in Iowa.
So, bottom line, SC is a music win for Kerry. We haev to assume that by then The other conadidates, namely Joe Lieberman, Edwards and Graham are out so Kerry victory in SC is certianly probable.

[JVS]

2. Risky

But then again he will need to take some risks if he wants the nomination.

[goobergunch]

3. Bad

What does he want Election 2004 to be about, issues or a testosterone-fest?

[virtualobserver]

5. It gets tiresome.....

when journalists do nothing but analyze image and "the process".
I guess Kerry could wear his briefs on the outside of his pants, instead of wearing a Bomber jacket. Why do they question the motives of a combat veteran, while gushing over the pretender-in-chief?

[Octafish]

6. It depends on what Kerry says...

... and what the media decide to snip from it. The guy needs to make a big splash, and contrasting his own familiarity with ships of the United States Navy and that of Dubya would be recognized by all but the stupidest amongst us.

If I were in charge of the Kerry for President campaign, I'd recommend the USS Constitution. The symbolism of the site is tremendous. Unfortunately, many Americans need to take an introductory course in American History, so the symbolism might get lost, especially with a news media devoted to the re-selection of Smirk. And yes, as Kerry is a US Navy veteran and war hero, he could bring that up.

[SweetZombieJesus]

8. You really think Kerry should engage in a dick measuring contest with Bush

I mean, I know your support of Kerry is nearly cultlike, but you can't even recognize that this is a completely asinine stunt that will backfire on him? Are you that far gone in your worship of this man and his "heroism" that you can't call a spade a spade?

[Octafish]

78. I've followed his career since 1972.

That's when my buddy who lost a brother in Vietnam told me about him and Operation Dewey Canyon II. Sorry if you don't like Kerry or me for posting anything positive about him. My reason for supporting Kerry is he has the best chance of anybody for busting the Bush Organized Crime Family. I've been waiting for that since November 22, 1963.

BTW: I liked Jimi Hendrix way back wen, too. And like Kerry, I still like Hendrix, today. I don't worship either man, though.

[Composed Thinker]

7. It's bad because people like Ann Coulter...

will run their mouths off on television calling him a hypocrite and whatever inflammatory terms they can think of at the moment. Of course, they will ignore the fact that people aren't angry for Bush giving a speech on a ship. They're angry at him because he donned a flight suit, trying to pass himself off as someone he's not. They'll also forget that John Kerry, despite somewhat exaggerated tales of his time in Vietnam, is a decorated veteran.

[legin]

9. Let me get this straight

we all here spend all our time trying everything in our power to counter this 'spirit of war' that seems to have decended on the planet, and Kerry goes out and finds the biggest symbol of war he can find on the planet to announce his candidacy in front of.

I'd like to OPTION REMOVED BY ADMIN.

[SweetZombieJesus]

11. Exactly. Swing voters will either say "Oh, I guess *'s stunt wasn't so

bad." or "Kerry's a phony who's insulting our intelligence."

But insulting the intelligence of the electorate seems to be the foundation of Kerry's campaign. Vote for the war, and then act like you were against it all along. Tell people to "get over" 2000 and use recycled Limbaugh lines about Gore "inventing the internet". Lather, rinse, repeat.

[SayitAintSo]

94. Dupe

[Gloria]

10. I might have more sympathy if he announced in front of a replica of

the patrol boat that he was on during Vietnam...
or perhaps surrounded by some of his Vietnam buddies...he does have them and he also chats with vets who come up to him at his meetings....

This aircraft carrier thing is just ridiculous.

[molly]

17. His crew will be with him

snip...

During the Sept. 2 stop in Charleston, Kerry is expected to be joined by David Alston of Columbia, a member of his boat crew during the Vietnam War. Later that day in Iowa, another crew member, Gene Thorsen of Ames, is expected to be beside Kerry, and aides hinted there might be additional crew members at each location.

The senator frequently speaks about the workings of the crew, a racially diverse group from around the country, as a metaphor for how he hopes to renew the commitment of Americans to one another.

http://www.johnkerry.com/news/clips/news_2003_0818d.html

[SweetZombieJesus]

20. Oh, so he'll have his multi-cultural props, eh?

Surely that will stir us all to his side :eyes:

I honestly can't believe that anyone still supports this jackass. Yeah, let's play a game of oneupsmanship with the biggest retard on the planet. That will surely distinguish Kerry from the pack and show how much more "manly" he is compared to Bush!

Maybe next he'll go address a crowd from Ground Zero with a bullhorn! Or read to little kids during the next terrorist attack!

[Pepperbelly]

59. While I think the stunt might be imprudent ...

calling the crew his "multi-cultural props" is both offensive and intentionally insulting. You should not try to inflame so much. It is ... divisive for no apparent reason other than affect.

They did, after all, bleed together. I think that the quality of that sort of relationship deserves more respect than the offhand dismissal as a mere ploy.

[blm]

106. His "multi-cultural props" ????

You must have NO idea how hard Kerry has fought over the years for issues that MATTER to minorities, working people and the disenfranchised. He advocated for unpopular issues like gays in the military, hate crimes legislation, restoring voting rights to exfelons, fair sentencing laws, etc...

[sangh0]

109. Disguting bigot-talk

Members of ethnic minorities are NOT "props". I wonder whose campaign such bigotry is coming from?

[revcarol]

12. It's not a far step from war posturing to war-mongering.

And Kerry doesn't have a leg to stand on as far as the War Powers Resolution.He can say he was misled all he wants, but it's his JOB to DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES, first and foremost. You would think his nose-wipers would tell him this is a bad idea.

Maybe he is trying to display Bush-like arrogance...that was nasty...but this whole thing leaves a nasty feeling in my mouth...like we're just supposed to give him the nomination because he's a war hero???...

[sangh0]

115. Dean also said he was misled

see http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=24284&mesg_id=24451

It seems it's OK when Dean does it. It's OK when Dean "displays Bush-like arrogance" That would never leave a "nasty feeling" in one's mouth.

[molly]

13. This is about the 4th thread started about this

I think it's a great idea!

[SweetZombieJesus]

16. Of course you do dear

I'm sure Dukakis supporters thought the tank stunt was a great idea too.

People, these guys are supposed to be Presidential candidates, not god damn GI Joes. Placing them in front of a militaristic/patriotic background does not a leader make.

Kerry lost his luster for me long ago, but I keep commenting on these threads, hoping I'll get through to the denser of the Kerry supporters, but there's just nobody home, is there?

[Octafish]

79. So who do you support?

And why? The reason I ask is that you're awfully fast in putting down Kerry every chance you get. So, who are you for and why?

One more question: If Kerry is the nominee, would you vote for him in November, 2004?

The reason I'm for John Kerry is he's not only the best Democrat running for President, he may be the best person for the job right now anywhere. He's a proven liberal with the experience, leadership qualities, smarts, guts, and backbone for the job. He can pull the country together and move it in the best direction for ALL Americans.

[sangh0]

121. SZJ is for Dean

as demonstrated by the elevated emotionalism and absence of facts in his Kerry-bashing. SZJ has knocked Kerry for being "misled" by Bush, but he excuses Dean for saying the same exact thing

[KaraokeKarlton]

14. Horrible, horrible move

Again, Kerry is "following" others, trying to do what they do and look better or be more successful. This is just DUMB, period. You do NOT portray yourself as a leader if you are being a follower and trying to "one-up". While he's busy trying to do what's already been done "bigger and better", his two biggest rivals are already off doing something else and leaving him in the dust. I know he's a decent guy who has plenty of loyal support, but he's running an absolutely terrible campaign. He doesn't want the job bad enough and really comes across as if he thinks he deserves it and is entitled to have it handed to him. I'm sorry, Kerry supporters, but that is just too weak to get the job done. The man is sinking fast.

[molly]

19. He has barely begun to fight

[SweetZombieJesus]

21. Yeah, and if this is him "fighting", then I'll pass

A slapfight between Bush and Kerry over who's more manly isn't exactly what I want to watch. I'd rather watch Clark or Dean debate circles around King Dipshit until he collapses with fear.

But hey, if you want to see these two debate who's more "macho" by posing in front of their war toys, go for it.

[KaraokeKarlton]

35. no shit

That's the problem. He has NO fight. And I don't want to hear how he's "waiting" to start to campaign. We can't afford to wait, and we drove right by Kerry months ago. He's so far behind he's not even a speck in the rear view mirror anymore.

[oasis]

23. Presidential campaigns are about oneupmanship. Gimmicks, stunts etc.

Kerry makes a big "splash" with this. The so called "swing voters" will surely be impressed by his commanding presence.

[SweetZombieJesus]

25. Oh please

Commanding presence? Yes, because nothing says "I deserve to be President" like a crass photo op CRIBBED DIRECTLY FROM THE ROVE PLAYBOOK!

All Kerry would have to do is come clean and say that he was intimidated by the Bushistas into voting for the war, and that he was wrong and should have stood against them. He hasn't done that, and he won't, because apparently he thinks the best strategy is to piss off the Dem base and try and win over the freepers by being Shrub's shadow. This is a COLOSSALLY stupid idea, and will win him no converts with IQs above 12.

Of course, since you seem to fancy yourself some sort of pundit-in-training, you probably look down your nose at the swing vote electorate as a bunch of braindead savages who only respond to base images of guys standing tall in front of battleships and tanks. Sorry, but I don't buy it. I know a lot of so called swing voters who are very smart, but just don't like the idea of committing to one party or another, and I can guarantee you that none of them will be won over by this laughable stunt.

[oasis]

27. This pundit-in-training will just have to wait and see. BTW, many of those

brain dead savages (swing voters) you refer to, voted for Bush because "he seemed like the kinda guy they'd like to have a beer with."

[SweetZombieJesus]

29. Guess what? I was (sort of) one of those people

I voted Nader in 2000 after many years of being an independent. I regret that vote everyday, even though as a Nebraska resident, my vote for Gore wouldn't have meant squat.

Most of these swing voters, myself included, see Bush for the pile of horse flop he is, and fully intend to support the Democratic candidate for President. Many people who've never voted before are supporting Dean and Clark. I don't think the Kerry campaign can say the same thing, and this little stunt certainly won't light a fire under their butts or put a Kerry lightbulb over their heads.

If Kerry wants me to support him, he needs to start being a peace hero TODAY instead of trading on his war hero status from 30 years ago.

[virtualobserver]

30. Kerry should have done an Apocalypse Now re-enactment.......

Too bad Martin Sheen is for Dean.

[oasis]

36. If security/defense is an issue in 2004, Kerry needs to demonstrate

that he, not only has the respect of our armed sevices but that he can step right in and take over the helm.

This carrier stunt may be over the top as a symbolic gesture, but Kerry has limited means at his disposal to convey his "strong on defense" message.

A picture *IS* worth a thousand words.

[SweetZombieJesus]

41. So using them for props the EXACT SAME WAY Bush did shows

that Kerry will be able to win the respect of the troops? Ok, whatever you say buddy.

Using your logic, however, I've got a much better plan for Kerry to show how "strong" he is on defense. He can take yet another page from the Karl Rove playbook and attack Abu Dhabi! It's small, and no one will complain too much, and they've got loads of oil! That will show the swing voters how much like Bush he is! The only people this thing will be beneficial for is the other Dem nominees who weren't stupid enough to try such a stunt, and the media, who will initiate a feeding frenzy in honor of their masters.

But you're right, a picture is worth a thousand words, but in this case, those thousand words could start with "As of this date I am no longer running for the Democratic candidacy for President Of The United States..."

[oasis]

53. "exact same way" I doubt it. It will,however, be similar thus enabling

potential voters to draw a distinction between AWOL and a war hero.

[KaraokeKarlton]

38. You've got to be joking.

The only "splash" we're going to see from Kerry doing this is the splash of mud hitting him when the press uses this to make fun of him. And didn't Kerry ALREADY criticize Bush for doing the same thing? And now he's going to turn around and do the same thing? They get to call him a hypocrite again, too. Oh Yay! He's going to be lampooned and be made a laughing stock. But hey, at least he'll make a BIGGER ass out of himself than Bush did...and it's all about doing what Bush does better than he does it, afterall.

Kerry is being LAME.

[oasis]

48. Kerry will not have a "Mission Acomplished" banner in the background.

There are possibly a few dozen media stunts Kerry could employ, but his detractors would find something to criticize in each of them. So what's a bona-fide war hero to do?

[SweetZombieJesus]

52. "What's a bona-fide war hero to do?"

Well, first of all, he could build a time machine and go back to before the war and vote AGAINST the resolution, but barring that, he could, you know, NOT TRY TO OUT-BUSH BUSH. That might help.

[oasis]

56. Kerry's move diminishes Bush's "genuine battle commander" status

while drawing attention to his own military prowess.

[KaraokeKarlton]

65. Um, hello...he's mentioned it a gazillion times already

Everyone already knows Kerry was in Vietnam, just like loads of other people in the country. My uncle has more medals than Kerry, was wounded more times and more seriously and he was in Korea too. But you know what...that doesn't give him a free ride wherever he wants to go in life. I don't know a single person who cares about a politician's military record. They care about their political record. On top of that, being in Vietnam might even turn some people off. Why? Because we ALL know at least one veteran of that war who isn't so mentally stable. Add to that the fact that Kerry can't quite figure out what side of the war fence he stands on and that record doesn't amount to a hill of beans in the grand scheme of things. Trying to make a big fuss over this is JUST as pathetic as hearing Lieberman repeat how "he and Al Gore already beat Bush" or Edwards remind us all about his poor factory working poppa and Gephardt tell another story about his Teamster father.

No one cares about any of it. If a politician is going to use quantifiers they should use their record to do so.

Had to edit this a bit. They should use their POLITICAL records, and what they've done in their political career...not what they did before.

[oasis]

66. "no one cares about any of it"? polls show that Americans do care

about security and defense. I may not care and you may not care, but that won't feed the bulldog come election day.

[KaraokeKarlton]

72. Like I said..think what you want to think

It's my assertion that virtually no one gives a rat's patootie who looks "coolest" standing on a big boat or who did what in Vietnam. People care about jobs, the economy, paying the doctor bills, keeping a roof over their head, feeding their families and getting their kids a decent education.

Sure, people care about security and defense. But I will tell you right now that I would not feel more secure electing someone just because they fought in a war. What's he gonna do, be a one man army? Let's get real here. I look at leadership, the ability to make quick decisions based on gut instinct and what the leader believes in. Kerry is not conducting himself in a way that I believe is befitting a good leader. He's not leading, he's following. He refuses to take a solid stand on anything unless it looks "safe" to do so. And it's quite clear that his "gut instinct" consists of what his handlers tell him is safe to do.

The man could surf a cruise missile in a one handed handstand all the way to Baghdad and I still wouldn't view him as being a strong enough leader to fix the mess Bush has made. Announcing on a carrier just makes him look like another lame ass politician who thinks "out-Bushing" Bush is going to win votes. It's not. People are sick of Bush and the last thing we want is someone who reminds us of him.

[oasis]

75. Kerry also gets to separate himself from the rest of the declared

viable candidates who many perceive as a bunch of no dick pencil pushers.

[KaraokeKarlton]

82. "no-dick pencil pushers"?

So the truth comes out. Kerry wants to announce on a big boat to convince the voters he doesn't have a little dick? If he honestly has to do things like this to convince himself he's all big, bad and manly it would imply that he's seriously lacking in the confidence department.

Face it dude...you just aren't going to win this one. This is a D-U-M-B stunt that is not going to help him and instead is going to make him look pathetic. Don't say you weren't warned when you come back on here crying about the press lampooning the hell out of him for being so lame. I really am beginning to think he's a masochist.

[oasis]

84. Kerry's challenge to the GOP machine: Bring 'em on

;-)

[KaraokeKarlton]

87. Well I think it's lame

no message

[KaraokeKarlton]

63. Believe what you want

Kerry supporters will love it, I'm sure. However, undecided people who don't like Bush and who are looking for someone else to support are going to take one look at this dumb stunt and say "Oh Great, another George Bush! Just what this country needs. I'm not voting for him." Then you will have most others seeing him as either a copy cat or having the maturity level of a 12 year old by instigating a stupid pissing contest over not relevent issues, but over who looks more "tough" on a boat. Bush did it first, so he automatically wins. Kerry is being dumb, dumb, dumb to do this. Many more horrible calls like this and he'll be luck to even get re-elected for his current position.

[oasis]

68. To not counter Rove and his Chimp would be "dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb.

What may be a "lame" and tired publicity stunt to you and me, is a bold masterstroke to voters who are not as yet familiar with John F. Kerry.

[KaraokeKarlton]

74. Counter what exactly?

That Bush can look like a total dorky retard and exploit our troops for political gain? Kerry already countered it by criticizing it, didn't he? So now he's going to do the same thing he criticized? Does he actually want to say "Look everyone! I am an even BIGGER idiot than Bush! Vote for me!"? Yes, I'm for Dean, but the LAST thing I want is for Kerry to commit political suicide and give any traction to Lieberman! I wish he would smarten up.

[oasis]

83. Lieberman's going nowhere. Kerry's just gearing up. Dean, DK, Gep

and the rest better sit back and take notice.IMO,They will all be shaping their campaigns following Kerry's lead once he becomes the frontrunner.

Dean of course, has no ranch or aircraft carrier.Having no military history, he has to rely on being a firebrand with doctor's creds. I'm hoping he sticks around to get non-registered voters motivated.He Dennis K. and Al Sharpton have made a valuable contribution to the party by creating much needed vitality and excitement.

Gephardt has the unions to provide him with a backdrop.

Any aspect of stumping on the campaign trail could be looked at as treadbare or corny but candidates have to go with their best pitch.

The whole campaign process is a sell job.

[loyalsister]

90. Will Glory days be playing in the background?

This could impress a few people who see it, but mostly it will be people who hear about it who will have the strongest response. It sounds pathetic. I like a lot of what Kerry has to say, but this reminds me of the scene in Terms of Endearment where Jack Nicholson's washed up astronaut gets defensive when Shirley MacClain's character gives him a hard time about keeping all of his photos, etc around to impress the women he brings home.
It's also very confusing. Why is he suddenly finding such glory in his experience in a war he later protested?
The resident we're dying to get rid of is courting the soldier worshiping element that might possibly make up some small percentage of swing voters. I think that there are surely ISSUES that are important to them.

[oasis]

92. Millions of Americans are impressed and proud of their armed services.

And most of them are voters. It's a fact of life. A candidate who doesn't take advantage of such a huge positive, would be making a severe campaign blunder.

I, for one, have no problems with Kerry denouncing the "unjust war" in Vietnam. In time, I did...and, in time, so did Robert MCnamara who was Secretary of Defense during the war.

[loyalsister]

103. I respect them

but don't share the men in uniform worship that Kerry is hoping to tap into. I wish he'd give people more credit for intelligence than pulling the same cheap crap that * loves so much.
I can also respect denouncing an unjust war. It is reliving the glory of being a soldier after denouncing that confuses me. The men I know who have denounced aren't real excited to relive it. I'm really disappointed to see him exploiting it this way. After serving as a voice that offered more legitimacy to conscientious objectors, he is now detracting from that. This seems to be a retreat from that.
It's one thing for him to be proud to have done his patriotic duty, another to exploit what he previously denounced for political reasons.

[sangh0]

111. Be honest. You don't respect them

It's obvious that you don't respect them because as soon as the words "I respect them" came out of you, they were immedieately followed by such "respectful" phrases as "uniform worship" and "cheap crap", and implying that the people who do go for such displays are not intelligent.

[loyalsister]

129. It's propaganda

A sensitivity to propaganda does not equate with a lack of intellect. But, propagandistic efforts like this are designed to encourage people to bypass their intellect and use their hearts to guide them in their candidate selection.

[sangh0]

133. Be honest

I see you're backing away frm your earlier statements, but they have been captured in black and white. And even now you are arguing that these people are thoughtless and emotional.

Yeah, you respect them. Right.

[ima_sinnic]

26. yes, just looks like he doesn't have any original ideas

. . . and sometime he's going to have to go beyond capitalizing on his Vietnam War experience. That was about 30 years ago. I want to know how he's going to extricate the country from the corruption, war-mongering, and reactionariness that it's mired in NOW.

[MiltonLeBerle]

22. BAD move- Letting The Junta define the campaign....

call the shots, set thew rules- however you want to say it- he'll look like a johnny-come-lately copy-cat.

In 2000, Gore let kkkarl rove inc. control the "debates" including the format and locations, and it cost him to the point that he came very close to losing the election.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

24. The Kerry Campaign Should Fire Bob Shrum And Hire Me

He should made his speech in front of a group of Viet Nam vets, preferably those who served with him.

That would have been powerful symbolism.

I am afraid the aircraft carrier is going to appear over the top.

That's so sad cuz I think Kerry is one of our stronger but not the strongest candidate in the Fall.

[virtualobserver]

28. shrum is clueless

Kerry is in deep doodoo

[salin]

47. I agree

I think it will be used to make him look silly.

Posturing with Vets - would more strongly conjour up the reminder that he is a combat Vet, that he supports Vets, and that he does not take the creation of a new generation of Vets lightly. All of those pull a great compare and contrast to Bush.

I like Kerry. I would hate to see this become fodder for the right as the media tries to compare it to Bush's stunt - and the negative light (re: foolishness) that Bush's little stunt came to be viewed.

[MaineDem]

51. "in front of a group of Viet Nam vets"

On Monday he's speaking to the VFW and then meeting with veterans in Chicago (or vice versa, I forget.)

I think we've all bitched about the Dems not calling * on his "war record". This action by Kerry is one way of doing that. It may backfire but I think it's a good idea. It has the Repukes a bit shaken and that must be a good thing.

[Corgigal]

31. If Kerry wants a real media event.

Find the most active unemployment office in the nation and set up there.

[SweetZombieJesus]

32. Kerry could have announced with Military Families Speak Out

Or any number of great vets and vet family organizations that are committed to opposing Bush and this illegal invasion. The question is: Would they welcome him, or tell him to fuck off for signing off on the death warrants for their sons and daughters?

[ilpostino]

33. Could be briliant...

could be a bust. The Duke in the tank was clearly an unmitigated disaster. And even Bush in the flight suit isn't looking so clever right now with even Howard Fineman calling it a straightjacket. Since others here at DU have already covered why it would be a bad move, I'll take a try at how it could work out.
1. The sophisticates here at DU aside, PT Barnum was right--no one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public. Bush's turn in the flight suit is already working against him and I suspect this strategy was hatched before that began to happen, yet it's not a bad idea to bury him in the phoniness of that image for good. Kerry does have the cred to do it and the diff between them will be pointed out directly or indirectly by the media for about a week after the announcement. (And who the hell cares what Ann Coulter says about it???)
2. Again Duers aside, most Americans still take this war on terrorism seriously and whoever they turn to in 2004 better assure them that he's ready to do something about it. (Anyone who's been paying even casual attention for the past two years must have some clue as to how far Bush has managed to get on the manipulation of symbols---bullhorns, etc. Those who scoff at such stuff are better at watching politics than being in politics.
3. And as an earlier poster said, it really gets down to what Kerry says. The truth is he's been far closer to the mainstream of America than Dean has on the war, and if he connects with a message that says this administration exploited our genuine fears and our faith to lead us ALL down the garden path and put our troops at risk, it just might resonate more than the other guy saying, "I was right and all you bozos were wrong" --admittedly an appealing message to many DUers, but probably a loser in the big showdown.

[SweetZombieJesus]

34. The problem is, he won't admit he was wrong about the war

Just like Lieberman won't, he continues to play that broken "I was misled" record and expects us all to dance to it. I was against the war from the get go, but I suspect that people who supported it initially and are now waking up to the reality of the situation would respect Kerry one hell of a lot more if he just admitted he was wrong. These people know Bush lied to them, but they hold Senators and Congressmen to a higher standard than their fellow citizens, and as such would see Kerry's "I was misled" defense as hollow, at best. These people put their faith in everyone who enabled that war, not just the instigators, and they've found that that faith was misplaced. And I really don't think anyone would see Dean's anti-war stance as an "I told you so" sort of deal, but rather would be impressed with his foresight and courage in standing against the invasion.

[ilpostino]

39. The UN card

The pro war dems are going to be playing the internationalization angle hard in the next few months...saying yeah, they supported the war in principle, but they expected that Bush would work in concert with the UN. This won't come down to a question of whether you were for the war or against it. It'll be all about the how--how you made the case, how you built your coalition, how you planned for after the war. This is what the debate will be in 2004 because this is where most of the voters are.

[molly]

64. Dean never said HE was mislead?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=24284&mesg_id=24451

I'm sure you've seen this - you just probably forgot - I, BTW, am not in any way "impressed with his foresight and courage in standing against the invasion". The man is a chameleon.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

37. I Agree With Much Of What You Say

but even P T Barnum would say the aircraft carrier stunt is over the top.

It would have been like Arnold announcing his candidacy in his posing trunks.

[DJcairo]

61. ilpostino, i've quoted you over at toughenough04.blogspot.com

I liked your post about why Kerry has decided on the carrier in SC and so I've quoted it on my blog www.toughenough04.blogspot.com
Please check it out and check out my website www.toughenough.org

[ilpostino]

120. Good site

Thanks for the link and the mention.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

40. Is he going to wear a big belt buckle and a cowboy hat?

Maybe a flight suit? Or, will he just wrap himself in the flag and do a solo rendition of "God Bless America"?

It should be laughable. Too bad he claims to be a Democrat.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

42. I Don't Mind The Military Symbolism

Being pro strong defense and being a Democrat are not mutually exclusive.

I just decry the rediculousness of it all....

[SweetZombieJesus]

45. How does posing in front of a fucking battleship or on an aircraft carrier

make one strong on defense?

Oh right, I remember: IT DOESN'T. It's bullshit posturing of the highest order, and even some people who supported Bush have seen through it. So how in the name of God does Kerry show he's strong on defense by nearly repeating Bush's perverse photo-op?

So much for regime change beginning at home, eh John?

[JanMichael]

44. I think he could have chosen a better backdrop.

Like an ICBM.

Nah. Why not in front of one of the recently closed mills in NC?

[SweetZombieJesus]

46. Maybe he could ride the bomb ala Slim Pickens

"YEE HA! I'M MORE OF A WARMONGER THAN BUSH! VOTE FER ME, I'LL NUKE ALL THEM ARABS!"

:eyes:

[DJcairo]

50. Kerry hits political slam dunk

This is the beginning of Kerry's stragedy to involved veternas in his campaign. What's wrong with Kerry talking about his Vietnam experience. All Dean does is talk about "when I was governor of Vermont." As if being a governor of a speck on the map state like Vermont is anything like being President.
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you pro-Dean people out there. This is a smart move. I abhore Maureen Dowd for pointing fun at anything Dems do and then turning right around and complaining about Bush. Remember what she did to Gore?? I have news for her....Kerry isn't Al Gore and he is going to really impress people. He's solid, measured and a faithful Democrat to the core and this announcement and subsquent tour is really going to astonish people.

[SweetZombieJesus]

54. So he's going to contrast himself with Bush by doing almost exactly what

Bush did? Well now my eyes are opened! That's genius! Surely this will captivate the nation to the point that they forcibly remove Bush from the White House and install G.I. John as our new President. Yes, let's reduce political campaigns to the level of cockfighting, that will surely ensure our victory.

[DJcairo]

55. oh please

Kerry is eager more than anything to expose Junior as a fraud. I persdonally am very excited that someone is attacking Bush on the national security issue. That, along with the economy, is one of the two biggest issues in this race and John Kerry is going to take it to him. Let the guy play up his Vietnam xp. Remember the McCain campaign and how that energized vets and independents. Kerry understands that in order to beat Bushg you have to reach beyond the liberal strongholds of the coasts and the cyber world to win elections. He's known this for a while and if you think you can become president just by being a liberal and rallying the base you are wrong.

[ilpostino]

57. Parenthetically

I wonder how difficult it would be for an ordinary citizen running for Prez--Al Sharpton, say--commandeering a battleship to make a speech.

[oasis]

60. Kerry has pull with the military. This is a good thing.

[Pepperbelly]

58. if he wants to use a ship for a backdrop ...

it should be the Constitution. Old Ironsides would be far better IMO.

[PurityOfEssence]

62. Idiotic move

Good to see so many in accord here. Hell, that damned ship's older than he is.

The facile message will be trying to outdo Junior. Facile is as deep as most observers will ever go.

[blm]

67. Great move....he's going straight after the fraud in chief

for his "perceived" strengths. And he'll have hundreds of thousands of veterans, military personnel, and firefighters pointing out Bush's fraudulency throughout the 2004 campaign.

[oasis]

69. "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead"

to quote another yankee naval hero.

[styersc]

70. This is a great move by Kerry....

he is an authentic, decorated war hero who returned from Vietnam and then, after seeing the war's futility, fought to end it. There are countless who owe there lives to the anti-war movement.

A Kerry candidacy eliminates the "more military then thou" campaign that will be fought against any other candidate and focus the campaign on the important issues- economy, environment, civil rights...

[UnapologeticLiberal]

73. Bad strategy

While Kerry, unlike the president, has earned the right to stand on an aircraft if he wants, i think it is dumb for him to do it after a lot of Democrats criticized the president's stunt.

[DJcairo]

76. Learn the difference

Kerry is not going ot be landing on it and calling an end to wartime operations in Iraq. Only using it as a backdrop for his announcement speech. And he'll be damned if he doesnt have a right to. It must drive him crazy all the Bush photo-ops in front of war planes and on an aircraft carrier. I support his decision and I think it's going to create a lot of energy in his campaign.

[Andy_Stephenson]

77. Mr Kerry should not tout his medals too much...

since he threw them over the white house fence...The Republicans will use it against him. He should just shut up about his medals.

[Octafish]

80. He earned the Silver Star, Bronze Star with Combat "V" and ...

... three Purple Hearts. Who cares what he did with them? They were his. He earned them in combat.

This is a free country — thanks to Kerry and every other man and woman who’s ever fought to keep America that way. So, thanks also to you gbnc, as you reported on DU you're a veteran.

So, we shouldn’t be worried about what he did or doesn't do with his medals. We should be worried about how we earn our own. And what kind of a future we build for us and for the generations to come.

[Zech Marquis]

86. to anyone complaining about Kerry's pending event

show me any photo of * and anone else i his BFEE gang (besides Poppy) who 1)actually served in a war 2) was wounded 3) decorated for his service many times 4)has the photos to prove it 5)amd people who actually served with him and can tell you what he did.

I like John Kerry, and Clark as his VP choice? oh boy!

[xequals]

81. hits a nerve with Dean supporters

It seems to me that the candidates with the strongest military credentials -- Kerry (and Clark if he gets in) -- get the biggest rise out of Dean supporters...

..mainly because their guy got out of the war for "medical reasons" and went skiing. Didn't fight, didn't protest, didn't do anything. The whole "whatever dude" mentality.

Imagine Dean anywhere near an aircraft carrier.. that would be funnier than Dukakis in the tank. Dean anywhere near a protest movement is funny enough as it is, to me anyway, giving his record and history as a "country club Republican".

[oasis]

85. "whatever dude mentality"?? You are too cruel sir.

:wow:

[xequals]

88. What I mean

is that it doesn't seem that Dean cared much about the Vietnam war issue one way or the other, i.e. "whatever, dude", but now tries to act like he's some anti-war hero. Many, many more people died in Vietnam than in this current situation. I can't respect a man who had no position one way or the other at such an important moment in our country's history.

If that's cruel, then so be it.

[SweetZombieJesus]

91. And I can't respect a "war hero" who gives Bush carte blanche in my

generation's Vietnam. You want to live in the past? So be it, drool over Kerry's past accomplishments all you want. But in the here and now, he didn't stand up to Bush when MILLIONS of us were doing the same, and that makes him an enabler of a criminal regime.

See, people like you and Lieberman apologists LOVE to underscore past accomplishments in an effort to try and draw attention away from the fact that Lieberman, Kerry, Gephardt, and Edwards signed off on Bush's invasion. The past doesn't cancel out the present, no matter how much you might want it to.

[Octafish]

93. Kerry did the right thing as he saw it.

We only know part of the story. Kerry's been on Saddam's case for a lot longer than most in government. In 1990, he voted against going to war when Iraq invaded Kuwait. Why? Because Bush Sr. set up Saddam so he could stay at war with Iran for much of the 80s and then be an agressor against "our oilpatch." Then the US could establish a permanent military presence in the Middle East. That's what Osama was mad about.

Were you at ANY of the classified meetings Kerry attended over the past 18 years in the Senate? If not, you probably have not have heard the reports many of the world's most nefarious nations are doing all they can to buy Soviet nuclear weapons on the black and gray markets. In 1998, Kerry supported President Clinton (who was getting clobbered at the time over Monica) when he ordered a cruise missile attack on Iraq in order to snuff out belligerent behavior toward the US.

BTW. A good President knows how to look past the short term in order to do what's best for the future of the country. John Kennedy went against the considered and unanimous opinions of the JCS, the Senate and House leadership, and most of his cabinet and kept from pressing the red button against the Soviets during the Cuban Missile Crisis. Unlike any other candidate, John Kerry has that combination of brains, know-how, experience, and backbone.

[SweetZombieJesus]

95. So our soldiers dying for no good reason is good for the country?

I see now, thanks for clearing that up for me. Dead young soldiers = good for the country. Clearly I should ask Dean for my money back and send it to Kerry.

[xequals]

98. Dean wasn't in a position to take any position,

which is the position that suits him best.

I'm a Lieberman apologist ? Funny, seeing how I wouldn't vote for him if he got the nomination.

Kerry was CORRECT to vote in favor of the resolution, while stressing that the administration work through the UN. The resolution didn't "authorize" any invasion, or give anyone "carte blanche". Nobody but Bush is responsible for invasion, though you guys love to believe otherwise.

The fact is, congress had to vote on the resolution as though a Democrat or Republican were president. Just because we think Bush is dishonest and evil doesn't mean they can vote on that. Elected leaders have to vote on facts. Kerry, Edwards, Hillary, and the rest voted just as if Clinton was president, the way the should have. Clinton dodged the UN to deal with Kosovo -- and he was right to do so. Russia and China would've stood in our way. This is why the Iraq resolution didn't tie the president's hands and require him to through the UN. You guys don't want to hear this, but we can't place the last word on our national security in the hands of the UN. We should insist that our leaders do the hard work of diplomacy, but ultimately it is the president's job to protect our country. The fact that Bush abused the support that the Congress and the American people gave him isn't anyone's fault but his own.

Overzealous anti-war people won't see it this way, but this is the way our system of government works. If every politician voted against something simply because he/she disliked the person proposing it.. we might as well forget about a representative democratic system of government where we elect leaders to do what is in our best interest.

[SweetZombieJesus]

100. Uh huh, sure

Yes, let's all be perfectly ok with the fact that our elected leaders, who are supposed to be smarter than us and work in our best interests, ignored the mountains of lies Bush used to push his case for war, lies that even I as a lowly convenience store clerk was able to spot a mile away. Let's support Dems who refuse to stand up for millions of people who 30 years ago would have been our base. Let's stand up for the Joe Liebermans, Evan Bayhs, and Zell Millers of the world who might as well be honorary Pioneers and Rangers due to the frequency with which they cover Bush's ass. Let's keep supporting people who are so crippled by polls and focus groups and consultants that they refuse to attack Bush no matter how weak he becomes.

I hold John Kerry to a much higher standard than any of the other Dems who voted for the war, because of all of them, he knows just how insidious the military industrial complex is. He knows how ruthless the BFEE is. And he had the guts 30 years ago to stand up to the government who sent him off to be cannon fodder in a bullshit war. And despite all this past history, John Kerry still voted for the resolution, and you're telling me he never thought for a second that Bush would abandon diplomacy, put together a slap-dash "coalition", and just go in anyway? Of all the people I would expect to stand up for us, John Kerry let me down the most. He knew better, but he acquiesced with the rest of the bend-over-Dems, and now my friends are paying the price.

So please, don't give me any bullshit lectures about how I don't understand how our government works. I know quite well how it works, and its gears are greased with the blood of my peers.

And for you and other Dean bashers to keep bringing Dean into this is just downright pathetic. The issue here is that this is a dumb move that won't have any traction with people who aren't already committed to Kerry, and that despite the fact that Bush is a chickenhawk sack of shit, Kerry trying to contrast himself and Bush in such a pedestrian manner will be completely lost on most people. What the attention span deficient swing voters will see is Kerry "copying" Bush. I don't like that that's how it will be interpreted, but it will, with a lot of "help" from the whore mafia. But hey, it wouldn't be the first time you guys dragged Dean's name in the mud when the discussion wasn't even about him. That's SOP by now.

[blm]

105. People like you would have allowed Bush a REAL blank check.

If Kerry and others hadn't negotiated with the WH, then Bush would have NEVER gone to the UN, NOT shown any evidence (the overreach exposed his credibility problem), and bombing Syria and Iran, too.

It cost them their vote. That's the price that some lawmakers pay just so those uninformed folks who have no idea about how government works can take potshots at them.

[SweetZombieJesus]

89. More horseshit

I have no personal problem with Clark, but Kerry can take a flying leap for all I care, as can Gephardt, Lieberman, and Edwards. ANYONE who voted for the war resolution gets no support from me until they get the nomination, and if I and other anti-war activists have anything to say, they won't be.

Newsflash: Nothing I said about Kerry was anything but the truth. This is a bonehead move, and he's been making them quite frequently lately. Rationalize it all you want, but it is a dumb move, no matter who does it. The very fact that you have to smear Dean for not serving in a bullshit war shows how desperate you and a lot of Kerry supporting Dean bashers are to slow the momentum of Dean because YOUR candidate is stagnating. So if you want to blame me and other Dean supporters for your guy's dumb moves, feel free, but don't expect anyone to feel sorry for you when he drops out. He has no one to blame but himself.

[molly]

99. Did you read post 64 ?

[Name removed]

101. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[molly]

119. OK - here is the Dean interview - the person you have

on ignore certainly won't mind....

Russert: ...and I'll show it to you. You said in January, Governor, "I would be surprised if didn't have chemicals and biological weapons."

Dean: Oh, well, I tend to believe the president. I think most Americans tends to believe the president. It turns out that what the president was saying and what his administration's saying wasn't so. We don't know why that is. So...

<>

Russert: What did you think of Senator John Kerry's comments that President Bush misled the country.

Dean: Well, I thought it was Senator Bob Graham that said that and I agree with that. And Bob Graham is in a position to know. He's a senior senator on the Intelligence Committee and...

Russert: No, John Kerry said the president misled us and...

Dean: Well, I wasn't aware that Senator Kerry said it. I knew Senator Graham had said it in Iowa. But I believe that. I think we were misled. Now, the question is did the president do that on purpose?

Was he misled by his own intelligence people? Was he misled by the people around us? Or did he, in fact, know what the truth was and tell us something different.

I've called for an independent investigation headed by Republicans and Democrats who are well respected in the country to find out what the president did know and when he knew it.

http://www.deanrocks.com/page.cfm?p=1&c=9

''A bunch of the people who voted for this war are now saying, `Well, we were misled,''' said Dean. ''The fact is you can't afford to be misled if you are running for president of the United States.''

http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/206/oped/Dean_won_t_let_Kerry_off_the_hook+.shtml

Whoops! Dean's hypocrisy stinks through his yellowed teeth. Not only is he hypocritical, he completely distorts Kerry's statement.

LEBANON, N.H. (AP) Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry said Wednesday that President Bush broke his promise to build an international coalition against Iraq's Saddam Hussein and then waged a war based on questionable intelligence.

Kerry said Bush made his case for war based on at least two pieces of U.S. intelligence that now appear to be wrong that Iraq sought nuclear material from Africa and that Saddam"s regime had aerial weapons capable of attacking the United States with biological material.

''I will not let him off the hook throughout this campaign with respect to America's credibility and credibility to me, because if he lied he lied to me personally,'' he said.

Addressing senior citizens in Hanover later in the evening, Kerry said he supported a congressional investigation because it was not clear whether Bush acted on poor, distorted or politicized intelligence.

"I don"t have the answer," he said. "I want the answer and the American people deserve the answer. I will get to the bottom of this."

http://truthout.org/docs_03/061903A.shtml

Kerry said he may have been misled. Dean said flat out that he was misled. You can't afford to be misled if you are running for president of the United States.

[sangh0]

122. Dean gave Bush* a pass

Not only did Dean say that people were "misled" (just like Kerry did, but SJV won't attack Dean for it), he excuses Bush* by specualting that Bush* himself was misled.

[sangh0]

112. Kerry scares the Dean supporters

as obviously demonstrated in this thread. Lots of bile, but very little facts to back them up. All they have is "He voted for war! He voted for war!"

I wonder how long it will take them to realize that the resolution vote is not going to have much of an effect in the Dem primaries?

[SayitAintSo]

96. I plan to be there - bold move, hope he pulls it off

Kerry's not stupid - he knows it's risky. I give him a little more credit that those that are real quick to blast him here. He has been making significant inroads in winning the Vet Vote down here in South Carolina. That's a BIG, I mean a REALLY BIG shift for SC.

If Kerry can bring in the Vets here, he's done a BIG favor for the DEMS, WHOEVER gets the nomination.

Just remember that.

[DJcairo]

102. Yes show up in SC to support Kerry

Kerry knows what he's doing. He giving Bush a one two punch in the heart of Bush country. The South and national security are two things Bush prides himself on and Kerry is going to use Bush's posturing to tear down his whole presidency and to bring the Veterans, who actually vote, into his candidacy.

[CWebster]

104. The idiot is a pathetic hasbeen

Kerry hasn't got a clue and has revealed himself to be awkward and inappropriate, without the common touch, lacking political instincts and timing. What Gore was subjected to for his "alpha male" pretentions, will be child's play compared to the buffoon they will make of Kerry's self-impressed strutting.

His macho act is silly and embarrassing and his attempt to appeal to all by releasing old snapshots with John Lennon, is little more than cheap opportunism which only serves to backfire with his goofy alpha act.

It is almost as if he is experiencing a mid-life crisis, harking back to the glory days....like the fat little balding guy who buys the flashy sports car to wow the chicks. ;-)

[KoKo]

113. I agree.......this is what turned me off in the beginning....he should be

above these theatrical stunts. What kind of advisors does he have? I saw the "Harley thing" and it turned me off because it was obviously staged. Kerry doesn't need to prove his manhood agains the Chimp.....why would his advisors or he even be thinking this.

[DealsGapRider]

107. Bad idea

The public already knows Bush's service record and they didn't care in 2000. What makes anyone think they're going to care now, after much of the public has been convinced that he's this strong military leader after 9/11?

[Larkspur]

110. If Kerry wants to look strong, he should be doing what Dean is doing

Running around the country inspiring thousands with hope that we can change the disastorous course this nation is on.

Howard Dean, in my book, gets the "Gung Ho!" award from me. The Gov. is a relentless campaigner and it bodes well for him because it makes him look like a fit person to be President. Howard's got energy, drive, innovative thinking, and the courage to blast Bush and the right wing policies tirelessly.

[blm]

114. Kerry has strong progressive Democratic credentials

that go back over 40 years. He doesn't have to go around the country making up for 11 years of centrism and compromising with the GOP while mocking liberals. YOU can buy an 8 month conversion to the Democratic wing of the Democratic party....I'll stick with those who have decades of credentials to back them up, like Kucinich and Kerry.

[molly]

116. Besides that - Kerry has a job, Dean doesn't

[CWebster]

118. When

he isn't giving his job responsibility away to back the team launching unjust attacks and looting the treasury in the process. great defender of the home turf there, Senator Kerry.

[CWebster]

117. Its too bad then

that he feels the need to downplay it all--intelligence, accomplishment in order to appear macho as the preferrable selling point.

[blm]

123. He doesn't HAVE to appear macho...

he has the goods and the resume and the medals and the lengthy record of tackling the scum BFEE and society's ills.

This speech EXPOSES BUSH AS A FRAUD. If you can't get behind that then why the hell is anyone here?

[killbotfactory]

124. Kerry was in Vietnam?

That's funny, I've heard him speak and he never mentions it.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

125. Will he get another medal for the 6113 dead Iraqi civilians

whose deaths he voted for?

What a guy! He could pin it to the flightsuit in lieu of the ones he threw over the white house fence...oh, that's right, they weren't his.
Well, political expediency you know. We must be pragmatic. Integrity is for losers.

[DJcairo]

126. This country has been misled on a host of issues.

All Americans have been misled by this administration, about the economy, the war, etc. The only reason Dean is currently profiting from his anti-war stand is because troops keep dying. If it weren't for that we'd all be like, "Dean who?"
Kerry is a strong leader who will know hwo to fix the situation in Iraq and not just complain about it. He will ensure adequate pay for our troops and veterans and he will bring a thoughtful approach to the economy. He will target the inequitable tax cuts passed by thsi administration and he will use the savings to give health insurance to more Americans and to bring about a balanced budget. He understands the complexities of these issues and won't go off half-cocked.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

128. Strong leader?

Where was his "leadership" when he voted to support the illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq? Why wern't the 23 senators who voted to oppose the slaughter "misled"? Is Kerry an easily misled boob or the political opportunist he appears to be?

He'll know how to "fix" the situation in Iraq? You mean the situation that he voted to get the US into?

"He understands the complexities of these issues.." If he's so bright, how come he didn't "understand the complexities" of invading Iraq when he voted for it?

If Dean is "profiting from his anti-war stand", why isn't brightboy Kerry taking an anti-war stand? Oh, yeah, he voted for it.

Adequate pay for troops and veterans? I'm a veteran, will I start getting paid?

[sangh0]

130. Dean also said he was "misled"

so why don't you ask if Dean is "an easily misled boob"?

Don't worry, I'm not holding my breath

[Larkspur]

131. Obviously taken out of context, if he really did say it

Just like his remark at the NAACP convention was taken out of context.

[blm]

132. He did say that Bush was misled by others.

Poor wittle George. He couldn't possibly be part of the plan to lie.

[sangh0]

134. The facts hurt

don't they, Larkspur

http://www.liberaloasis.com/dean.htm

"LiberalOasis: What do you think were the motivations for the Bush Administration to go to war with Iraq?

Howard Dean: I can't speak to his motives, because I can't read his mind.

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, though, and presume that he believes Saddam Hussein was an imminent threat to our security..."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=24284&mesg_id=24451

"Russert: ...and I'll show it to you. You said in January, Governor, "I would be surprised if didn't have chemicals and biological weapons."

Dean: Oh, well, I tend to believe the president. I think most Americans tends to believe the president. It turns out that what the president was saying and what his administration's saying wasn't so. We don't know why that is. So...

Russert: What did you think of Senator John Kerry's comments that President Bush misled the country.

Dean: Well, I thought it was Senator Bob Graham that said that and I agree with that. And Bob Graham is in a position to know. He's a senior senator on the Intelligence Committee and...

Russert: No, John Kerry said the president misled us and...

Dean: Well, I wasn't aware that Senator Kerry said it. I knew Senator Graham had said it in Iowa. But I believe that. I think we were misled. Now, the question is did the president do that on purpose?

Was he misled by his own intelligence people? Was he misled by the people around us? Or did he, in fact, know what the truth was and tell us something different. "

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

136. There seems to be something missing.

"I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, though, and presume that he believes Saddam Hussein was an imminent threat to our security..."

Dean said that he would give the idiotchild the benefit of the doubt that he (Bush) believed that Saddam was in imminent threat.

He did not say that he (Dean) believed that Iraq posed an imminent threat.

Your further references to Dean believing or not believing had to do with WMD - not that he believed the imminent threat that was to justify the aggression.

Nor, do your references point to any statement that Dean approved of the invasion.

Why was Kerry "misled" into believing that there was such an imminent threat that he voted for the aggression? While 23 other senators saw through it?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

135. A strawman argument.

A lot of people were misled about the WMD. According to the "intelligence" reports Saddam had WMD. What was in question was whether Iraq posed an imminent threat to the US that justified a preemptive act of aggression against a sovereign nation. I've never seen that Dean was "misled" into agreeing that such preemption was necessary. 23 other senators, mostly democrats, didn't buy it either. How is that they managed not to be "misled"?

Now that the invasion and occupation has turned sour and public support is dropping for it, Kerry is trying to cover his sorry ass by claiming ignorance.

Just out of curiosity, were you "misled" into believing that the invasion of Iraq was necessary? If not, why not? Did your bemedalled hero lack the same ability to see through the lies as you?

I don't believe that Kerry was a "misled boob", as you apparantly do. I think he's claiming to be just that to cover his pathetic vote to enable the slaughter.

[Ouabache]

137. I thought he was announcing in IOWA

how will they get a carrier to Iowa?

:shrug:

email I got from a friend said the announcement would be in Iowa...
I think the carrier info might be bogus, but if anyone like a repuke jumps on him for announcing in front of a carrier, he would have the perfect compare and contrast opportunity between his military service and Bush's 18 month AWOL coke-binge.