Under What Circumstances Would A Non-Violent Revolution Be Justified?

[H2O Man]

On August 4, 1857, Frederick Douglass said: "Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its waters.

"This struggle may be a moral one; or it may be a physical one; or it may be both moral and physical; but it must be a struggle. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did, and it never will.

"Find out just what people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both.

"The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress."

A century later, on April 8, 1964, Minister Malcolm X delivered a speech to the Militant Labor Forum, entitled "The Black Revolution." It was based in part on Douglass's earlier message. It marked the beginning of the last stage of evolution in Malcolm's thinking. The ex-Nation of Islam preacher had become invested in the potential for America to have what he called "a bloodless revolution."

What were the weapons of choice outlined by Malcolm that evening? They were the rights and responsibilities outlined in the US Constitution, specifically in the Bill of Rights. Malcolm expressed a concern that was considered closer to Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr's point of view at that time: that America was suffering from divisions, and that violence could not cleanse the nation. Rather, he recognized that the only option for a true revolution in values in America called for citizens to grasp the Bill of Rights, and experience the unity it could create. Further, Malcolm asked those who were able to volunteer to undergo a self-purification, and dedicate themselves to taking non-violent actions to save the soul of this country.

[eleny]

1. Election Day! Vote Kerry/Edwards

[DaveofCali]

12. Yes, this is the best thing to do!!!

Especially if you want stability in America. The world's health is tied directly to America's health.

[Kanary]

2. The last sentence, in a great post, is what we need, IMO, to concentrate

on.

"Further, Malcolm asked those who were able to volunteer to undergo a self-purification, and dedicate themselves to taking non-violent actions to save the soul of this country."

I'm not sure exactly what Malcolm had in mind with the "self-purification", but I think it's something we can all do to some extent. Peace and liberty begin at home, and we have much work to do.

Another poster made a statement today about what healthy communication consists of, and we all need to start there.

Another fantastic and thoughtful post, H2O Man! You've gained much respect here, and maybe you can make headway that others have not been able to.

Thank you so much for your effort in posting this!

Kanary

[Beam Me Up]

3. Thank you H2O man for starting this thread!

I'll compose some thoughts and come back.

:kick:

[Warpy]

4. Violent revolution is messy, uncomfortable, and generally

does not work. The front men are executed, but the men who were pulling their strings merely change uniforms and continue on as before.

Nonviolence is risky to people who practice it, but the shame of having attacked nonviolent people is generally what causes tyrants to either be deposed or to change their policies.

[peacetalksforall]

5. The policy of the U.S. is extremely hypocritical. We ask that people

of other countries rise up and throw out their leaders - then others who do that are condemned. Or we enter into a war against them.

We used to have an idealistic intention that embodied justice, choice, freedom, life, and basics when stating our wish for another country. Now, it all depends on the U.S. interests of a few at the top.

There are only a few visionaries in any country and getting others to wake up is a slow process. The visionaries are impatient and end up as martyrs.

The only way is a peacful movement through education when those being revolted against have all the guns, helmets, uniforms, and chemicals and when they have a selfish and evil interpretation of the law that supports their actions or a disregard of the law.

When is one justified? When the agenda of the oppressors veers from the law or is loaded with prejudicial misuse of the laws by theft, lies, untested and predatory interpretations, and blatant loss of rights, including untruthful and invasive propaganda.

Does anyone know of any book that covers the psychology of attitude of various peoples who have experienced predatory takeover of their lives by their governments throughout modern history - with an emphasis on why the people let themselves be taken over?

[moof]

6. Ready when you are, although it seems a moot point

when even literally setting yourself on fire gets no press.

[DaveofCali]

11. Exactly, Government - media conspiracy nullifies non violence protests

Not only that, but when the Govt can take authoritarian action on dissenters with the media spinning it, and when people can be fed propaganda easily, then it is purely moot.

[H2O Man]

7. I live outside of Oneonta, New York

which is a small city in rural Otsego County. There are two colleges in Oneonta: Hartwick College and SUCO (State University College at Oneonta). Every fall, the local newspaper's "police blotter" is filled with literally hundreds of arrests for silly offenses, such as open container, possession of the demon weed, and disorderly conduct.

Now, I've said this before (so excuse me for repeating myself): these are purely physical people, and when this "outside world," with its eating and sleeping, its dancing and singing, its drugs and fine wine, and the bright colors and laughter are taken away from these children -- and God knows that if bush/cheney remains in office, these things will be taken away and replaced with a uniform and gun -- these children are without a foundation of understanding that makes resistance possible, in the face of a criminal system that is attempting -- and accomplishing -- the robbery of their very selves!

A huge % of this, the "educated" portion of their generation, know very little about the measure of thought. More, they have no belief in the power of ideas, and therefore have little to support themselves with. And so it will be very easy for this administration to capitalize on their ignorance, and turn them into weapons of war.

What might Malcolm suggest for a rite of self-purification, in this example? I suspect he would want those young people to at least consider putting away their bottles and those funny cigarettes, and to take part in a public demonstration with the goal of educating others. I'd say that if 100 orderly, peaceful, disciplined students held a silent vigil in front of the local recruiters' offices, and protested the war, it might at first be considered quaint. The paper might make a reference to past protests from the 1960s.

But if the students stayed, and made clear that they are not "anti-soldier," but rather, they are "anti-bush," and sang some Woodie Guthrie songs, prayed some Martin Luther King prayers, and took part in the feast of a Gandhian fast ..... it would have a larger affect on the general consciousness in Oneonta than they might expect. It might get some local ministers and rabbi's, old hippies and Vietnam veterans, and parents who do NOT want their offspring to kill and die in Iraq for the benefit of Halliburton, to join them.

And that would be revolutionary, indeed!

[lpbk2713]

8. When the police, the courts, and/or the military no longer

adhere to the Constitution but enforce the wishes of a powerful fragmented group of people or an extreme ideology.

[JNelson6563]

9. Today's circumstances

demand that we take action now and remain vigilant indefinitely.

Julie

[voice of reason]

10. in a revolution . . .

. . . or a coup, the side with the military leadership on its side wins. Without that, it will make a bloody mess (literally) of the revolutionaries.

v.o.r.

[jukes]

13. there's only been one

successful non-violent revolution.

& the closest look alike to gandhi we have is liebermann; i *DO NOT* want to see that man in a diaper!

[Beam Me Up]

14. When our votes are no longer counted or recorded properly

and when the media whose role in society should be to give us accurate information about what is going on in the world around us, becomes merely a propaganda tool for a one party political agenda.

Now is that time, in my opinion. But, then, I've been fighting a nonviolent revolution most of my adult life by making decisions about where I spend my time and money. I haven't watched TV in years; the vehicle I drive is almost twenty years old and looks it, too. I live relatively simply compared to most folks and that is just fine by me. I spend a lot of time reading and educating myself. In the face of a media driven corporate juggernaut telling me to BUY BUY BUY their preposterous notions of what is of 'value' and what is 'real' these small things are revolutionary acts. Being in the world of nature, speaking the truth, being open and fair with those I do business, reflecting as much on my own shortcomings as I do on those of others -- these are revolutionary acts.

The reality, however, is that one person or even a few people do not make a *significant* difference. What I want to see is a revolution in the way we THINK about problems. For example, why is it that in this country the way you 'solve' a problem is to 'declare war' on it? This has been going on at least since the 'war on poverty.' We have a war on drugs and now a war on terrorism. This is INSANE RHETORIC. It makes a good sound bite but it does not make for intelligent policy. It became obvious to me many years ago that the 'war on drugs' for example was not MEANT to end the 'drug problem.' In fact, it was MEANT TO MAKE THE PROBLEM WORSE BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE PROFIT FROM THEIR PROHIBITION. This is what the 'war on drugs' does and this is what it is MEANT TO DO.

The 'war on terrorism' is exactly the same.

By 'thinking differently' I mean turning the rhetoric around. WHO ARE THE TERRORISTS? Are they not those who profit from war? Warfare, terrorism, criminality of any kind ALL THIS WILL END WHEN IT IS NO LONGER PROFITABLE.

The question is how do you take the profit out of war fare and other criminal behavior? How do you get people to give up their criminal enterprises? That last sentence is based on the observation that WE LIVE IN A CRIMINAL CULTURE. Crime and corruption is rampant, and mostly at the highest levels of business management, government and military. Everyone is 'out for himself', everyone is on the take, everyone cheats on their taxes. Well, everyone except for a very few.

What can change this? How can people begin to EXPERIENCE THE CONSEQUENCES OF THEIR ACTIONS? Until we do, until we FEEL the pain we cause others, I am not optimistic of a GENUINE REVOLUTION nonviolent or otherwise.

BMU

Edit: typos