Once again, Crazy Howard Dean was right

[Armstead]

When I heard Howard Dean say that yesterday's Terra Lert! (TM) seemed suspiciously political, my first reaction was "Uh oh. There he goes again making wild accusations."

But it's looking more and more that once again ol' Crazy Howard was right. The reporting on Craven News Network about the reasons for the alert made me go "Huh?"

Obviously, if they have uncovered evidence about specific plans they have been gathering about specific locatrions, then it makes perfect sense to boost security there.

But why announce this on a Sunday, and make it sound like there is some sudden new threat? Why suddenly block off traffic in the city with such fanfare?

IT'S BULLSHIT! Either the administration is incompetent by getting more excited and fuddled than necessary. Or the administration ios being cynical, by once again "reminding us" of the threat, and by extention, of the need to re-elect our present commander in chief so he will protect us.

Or both, which is probably cxloser to the truth.

In any event, once again by saying something that seems out-of-line at first, Howard Dean once again was more accurate and honest than most. Looking back, for example, his remarks after the capture of Sadaam were right on target.

Anyway, we need Dean around to keep the Democrats honest.

[cthrumatrix]

1. and Wolfie doesn't know what the hell to do...Dean outlasts his bullshit

He's been right from day one.

[GainesT1958]

2. Howard's kind of a personification of Mother Jones magazine..

He says something media whores make fun of as "outlandish" one day and a little while later...BINGO! It's NEWS!:D

I'll bet he did find it more than a little ironic that many of his 2003 comments on the trail made it into Kerry's acceptance speech...:eyes:

B-)

[janx]

Dean's comments in Kerry's acceptance speech--

Dean was probably fully aware that they would be used and may well have advised that they should be. Kerry used comments from other candidates as well. I was happy to hear it. Taking the best ideas of the primary candidates had the effect of unifying the party.

So that part doesn't bother me. The media's portrayal of Dean is way off the mark, however. You're certainly right about that.

[gratuitous]

10. Not quite that route

That is, going from "outlandish" yesterday to "news" today. It has to be "outlandish" for a while, then when the outlandish becomes apparent, there's a one-new-cycle report on it so that the whores can say they've "covered" the issue. After that, it goes one of two ways: Either back to outlandish, sort of like the "there is no link between Saddam and Al Qaeda" or it becomes "Ho hum, that's very old news, no need even to report it, which we did at 2:30 a.m. back on the last Sunday in April." E.g., no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

[mzmolly]

3. Dean is ALWAYS spot on.

:hi:

[Longhorn]

4. My impression of Howard Dean is that he cares more about what's

right for the country than his own personal fame. He didn't skunk away in shame or jealousy when he didn't win the primaries -- he's working as hard as ever to get Kerry elected because it's what's best for the country. You have to admire a man like that, whose love of his country trumps personal ambition.

[Radio]

16. He isn't afraid of being himself

[apnu]

5. I missed this over the weekend...

... I was having an Outfoxed and Unprecidented BBQ this weekend...

Does anybody have a link to what he said?

[janx]

12. This thread has a partial transcript, with a link to the complete

transcript from CNN:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2136468

[apnu]

15. Thanks! That thread has a link to the whole transcript!

IMO, Dean is right on the money. Especially with the knowledge that these targeted places come from pre-9/11 plans. To be fair, that fact alone does not mean they aren't under threat, however it points to something kinda funny about all of this. I feel like we aren't getting all the information.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x722713

[AFSCME girl]

6. You're exactly right.........

why go through all of this if the threats specify "prior to the November elections". Does anyone else feel like these current "Terra Alerts" are the opening act for the GOP convention later this month?
:wtf:

[WI_DEM]

7. this is further evidence that this administration has zero credibility

The constants lies makes every utterance by them suspect. It is another reason they must go. Even if suddenly they announced a real terror threat--people would wonder if it is politically inspired. They have themselves to blame for this.

[underpants]

8. LINK to thread with full transcript-Yes Dean hit the nail on the head.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2136468

[King Coal]

39. Underpants, I was just listening to the Albuquerque Clear Channel

station with Larry Ahrens. He was repeating the Clear Channel talking points about the Dean interview and it was just pure lies. He said that Dean said the whole warning was pure politics and that it was just unbelievable yada yada yada. After seeing your link to the transcripts, and reading them I just had to call KKOB and inform them that what Larry said was wrong. We will see if they make a correction. I will call back if I don't hear one.

[underpants]

41. Good

The problem here is that Dean has to be aware of the label they have slapped on him anyway and that we are in a soundbite world not one where entire discussion are sought or repeated.

[sandnsea]

9. But was he helpful?

It would have been much more helpful if Howard just would have expressed confusion. Why do people still not know what they're supposed to do? Should people really be going to work in these buildings? What about after an attack? We know exactly what to do if there's an earthquake, but not a terrorist attack? And where is the President anyway? He keeps saying we need to elect him because he's fighting terrorism, but I'm just not seeing it. And he doesn't seem to be taking this new threat seriously enough to come back to the White House, so I'm not sure the American people will.

We could have had some powerful stuff on the airwaves. Instead we've got remarks that half the country thinks are insane. And it does matter what they think in an election year.

[Terry_M]

14. If every single democrat in the party starts playing politics all day long

I suspect many voters may be discouraged.

[sandnsea]

18. Those are truthful comments

Dean's comments were a whole lot more "playing politics" than anything I said.

[Terry_M]

28. My understanding is that you would have preferred if Dean

weighed his words for political benefit (to be "helpful"). That is playing politics.

[madfloridian]

32. You are right. It is time.

Everyone has weighed their words too long to be politically correct. That is why we are in such a mess in this country.

It is time for someone with courage to speak up and not worry about the reaction.

[Armstead]

20. He was as helpful as the media and the Democrats allow

He spoke truth to power. If the Media Assholes choose to make hium out to be crazy for telling the truth, you can't blame that on Howard.

If the "respectable" Democratic establishment choose not to associate themnselves with Dean's truthtelling, that is also their fault, not Dean's.

[sandnsea]

24. The truth?

You know what, nobody KNOWS if that's the truth. You can't possibly KNOW whether there is really intelligence on this current threat or not. You SUSPECT. Just like with the WMD. And that's the difference. Howard could have said alot of things that would have helped and would have made people think about what the hell these warnings mean, he didn't. He threw out red meat and the people who like that sort of thing, gobbled it up. Most people really don't like it when people's lives may be at stake. People are smart enough to make any political connections to these terror alerts all by themselves anyway. Bush cries wolf which causes him to lose credibility. But dismissing every single thing that comes out of Bush's mouth also causes the left to lose credibility. Nobody is wrong 100% of the time.

[truthspeaker]

25. whatever he said would have been distorted and "gobbled up"

You can't secondguess every word that comes out of your mouth. Dean told the truth as he saw it (which, by the way, was NOT that these warnings are false).

The reason Dean is great is he says what he thinks is true, not what he thinks people want to hear.

[sandnsea]

29. So does Bush

Just because somebody says what they believe to be true doesn't make it true. It certainly doesn't make it a good thing to say. And you can't secondguess every word that comes out of your mouth, but you ought to have enough self-restraint to be careful about terrorist warnings. You're right, he didn't say the terrorist warnings were false, but that's the impression people are left with.

[truthspeaker]

30. No, Bush lies like a rug; says one thing, does another

Every word out of his mouth is calculated by Rove.

Fuck this "you should be careful" shit. Dean did speak his mind, he was right, and he should keep doing it. It's time to stop living in fear of the right-wing smear machine. It's time to stop running every statement through a focus group and a poll before saying it out loud.

[Jacobin]

56. The info on the laptop was FOUR YEARS OLD

There has been no indication that there was some imminent threat, as implied by BushCo. Witness, Smirky sending Pickles to the very building supposedly about to be "under attack" yesterday.

This is ALL high drama and theatre, freaking people out, wasting man hours and resources on alerts in the middle of Kerry's roll-out.

Anyone who doesn't see this is simply not looking.

Sorry

[Straight Shooter]

35. Dean did not express confusion because Dean is not confused

Neither are we.

And I don't know about "half the country" thinking the remarks are "insane." And so what if they do? Half the country is under an Orwellian influence and they are nuts.

Howard can couch his opinions in the most logical, thoughtful manner possible, and the other side will take out the substance and then twist what remains into a pretzel. Remember the comment about "an interesting theory" concerning 9/11? They raked him over the coals and never included the context.

As long as he gets people talking about it, he's doing the job. Go, Howard!

[JNelson6563]

58. We have enough Democrats willing to play

the role of confused, demuring patriots. It's high time we had somebody who came out and told it like it is. And Dean's comments were't outlandish but are being trumpeted as such by the whores.

Julie

[liberalnurse]

11. Dean has noted that *bush has

made " Terror" a political issue ....*bush makes fear and terror the focus of every single speech since 911.

[KYDEM]

13. The problem is:

I wonder if this is actually a planned thwarted attack and we will see 24/7 the capture of terrorist. Then Dean's words will be used against us. This will make bush* and co look like our savior and us look like the bad guys. I believe this has been the plan since the beginning of these political motivated alerts has started. We learn their pattern then weeks before repugs' convention we have this planned thwarted attack to save bush and hurt us. If this is the plan we need to figure out a way to use it to our advantage.

[Armstead]

22. That thought has crossed my mind

I won;t say it is cynical manipulation totally.

But I do think it's possible they already one of those schmucky low-level terrorist footsoldiers in their sights anyway, and are using this as a setup to make his inevitable capture and arrest look more "dramatic" and "important" than it would be otehrwise.

[DemonFighterLives]

17. CNN reported Lieberman

Called Dean's words nonsense or outlandish or some such.
I'm happy that Dean is saying what needs to be said. Bushy fear mongering cannot go unchecked.

[cthrumatrix]

19. Liberman "showed us his true stripes" in the primaries..... I'll take Dean

any day.... if we had listened to him B4 the war, 1000 families would have thier loved ones today..and Iraq would have 10000's of familes together.

[PeaceProgProsp]

21. Costs vs Benefits: what if there were an attack after making comment?

Then who would be accused of politicizing terror?

I'm not saying it isn't right to discuss this issue (and, in fact, I have no doubt that the lead up to the convention will be filled with reminders of how, um, unsafe the world is). But the key is to figure out the right way to raise these questions in people's minds.

I didn't hear Dean's statements, so I can't judge. But there is a right and wrong way to go about discussing this issue.

[Armstead]

23. Dean raised a very valid AND UNARGUABLE point

Dean pointed out that whatever might come from the currerent "alert," Bush has set up a situation where it is inevitably looked at as political.

See the thread noted above for a full transcript of what Dean said. There is no doubt that he is absolutely correct, regardless of what happens.

[madfloridian]

34. Then read the transcript. He was dead right to say this.

We have got to stop being afraid.

[PeaceProgProsp]

42. There's nothing wrong with making an argument that anticipates

the possibility of there being an attack.

There was an article in the New Yorker about the attacks in Spain. It cited a web site that suggested that there would be an attack in spain. That site was published months before the attacks when nobody thought there'd ever be an attack IN Spain (on Spain in Iraq, yes, but not in Spain).

Now, that site is getting a closer look by terrorism experts. One thing they say on that site (IIRC) is that Al Q. wants Bush to win. They think a Democrat would solve the problems with Iraq and don't want that to happen.

So, if this is true, and you have prominent Dems like Dean blaming the Republicans for politicizing terror in really blunt and a not very strategic manner, and you're a terrorist, what would you do?

I'll tell you what: you'd plan a terrorist attack. It would make Democrats look stupid and would help the Republicans immensely.

So, you have to be smart about criticizing Bush. I have no doubt that Kerry and Edwards understand this issue.

[NYCGirl]

43. So you're saying that Dean's outspokenness is encouraging terrorists?

?????????
:wtf:

[PeaceProgProsp]

46. I think I'm repeating myself here:

If you believe that Bush is encouraging terrorism, then Dean criticizing Bush plays right into it becuase, if there's an attack, it's statements like Dean's which will be the reason voters turn away from Democrats.

Why do you think Kerry is so quick to contradict Dean?

Let's back up here. This is a chess game, and Dean saying what he said might be true, but it's still a bad chess move.

You can just say what's on your mind everytime Bush does something bad. You have to play out all the possibilities. What Dean said is great if you're sure there won't be another terrorist attack. But if there is one, what Dean said isn't so smart.

And judging from Kerry's response, I'd say that they're pretty confident that there might be another one before election day.

[madfloridian]

47. What convoluted thinking that is.

If Bush does something bad, and a Democrat responds, then if there is an attack it is our fault. LOL

[PeaceProgProsp]

48. Chess is a very difficult game which requires thinking moves ahead.

To an observer, thinking several moves ahead might look like convoluted thinking. However, I doubt the grandmasters are imeptuous, black and white thinkers who never think beyond the next move.

[madfloridian]

49. We know their agenda, trust me. Dean's statement will NOT cause attacks.

I am sorry, but all of us know what they are up to.

[PeaceProgProsp]

53. Your vote is assured.

You need to worry about the votes of people who might not be so impressed with Democrats who criticize Republicans for politicizing terror and then see a terrorist act.

Leave the straight-up satire to Letterman and Stewart, and figure out a better chess move for rasing this issue that doesn't lead to checkmate in two moves if there's a terrorist attack.

[madfloridian]

44. So now it is Dean who is going to cause a terror attack??

Oh, my goodness. That man sure needs to shut his mouth.

Meanwhile, Bush continues to play politics with our country and our lives. Because we don't want to offend the terrorists.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

55. And the "right way" is to issue a terror alert based on years-old info?...

If you want to point a finger, point one at the people that revved up this nonsense based SOLELY on intelligence reports that are literally years old.

[PeaceProgProsp]

59. Attack the media for not reporting that part of the story.

Attack Ashcroft for not telling us about the information sooner.

But don't say the Republicans are politicizing terror as your headline, because, what do you think people would think about Democrats if the next thing to happen were a terrorist attack?

You HAVE to chose your moves based on the possibility that there will be an attack.

[HuckleB]

26. Crazy?

Considerations on the Stigma of Mental Illness
http://www.cpa-apc.org/Publications/Archives/CJP/2003/november/guesteditorial.asp

"Stigma, prejudice, and discrimination are closely related and tightly interwoven social constructs. These constructs affect many, based on age, religion, ethnic origin, or socio- economic status. However, a person can potentially move out of these groups, if not physically—as in age or ethnic background—then by moving up the social ladder, which makes the affected person less of a target. Conversely, stigma, prejudice, and discrimination against those with mental illness cut across all classes and social groups, and, to the extent that many mental conditions are chronic and incapacitating, those affected can hardly migrate out of the grip of negative social attitudes. The result is social annihilation that constricts the lives of those with mental illness, preventing them from fully reengaging in their communities and participating in the social activities of their groups of reference.

The general public most frequently makes contact with mental illness through the media or the movies. Unfortunately, the media often depict patients as unpredictable, violent, and dangerous (1), and movies usually follow the popular “psycho- killer” plot (2) long exploited by the cinematographic industry. Associating mental illness with violence helps to perpetuate stigmatizing and discriminatory practices against mentally ill persons; it is only one of many negative stereotypes and common prejudicial attitudes about them.

...

Prejudice often stems from ignorance or unwillingness to find the truth. For example, a study conducted by the Ontario Division of the Canadian Mental Health Association in 1993–1994 found that the most prevalent misconceptions about mental illness include the belief that mental patients are dangerous and violent (88%); that they have a low IQ or are developmentally handicapped (40%); that they cannot function, hold a job, or have anything to contribute (32%); that they lack willpower or are weak and lazy (24%); that they are unpredictable (20%); and finally, that they are to be blamed for their own condition and should just “shape up” (20%) (17). Similarly, a survey among first-year university students in the US found that almost two-thirds believed “multiple personalities” to be a common symptom of schizophrenia, and a poll among the general public found that 55% did not believe that mental illness exists, with only 1% acknowledging that mental illness is a major health problem (18). Some of these myths also surfaced in a study conducted in Calgary during the pilot phase of the World Psychiatric Association (WPA) project Open the Doors (19). Respondents to this study believed that persons with schizophrenia cannot work in regular jobs (72%), have a split personality (47%), and are dangerous to the public because of violent behaviour (14%) (20).

...

Sensational media reports (24,25) reinforce beliefs instilled by movies that depict mental health patients as “uncontrollable killers.” Relatives of the mentally ill assert that the way they are depicted in movies is the most important contributor to stigmatization (26). Movies have stigmatized not only those with mental illness but also psychiatrists, often extending negative stereotypes to portray them as libidinous lechers, eccentric buffoons, and evil-minded, vindictive, and repressive agents of the social system—and in the case of female psychiatrists, as loveless and sexually unfulfilled (27)."

----------

For further reading on the papers brought up in this editorial, see:

Stigma and the Daily News: Evaluation of a Newspaper Intervention
http://www.cpa-apc.org/Publications/Archives/CJP/2003/november/stuart.asp

Interventions to Reduce the Stigma Associated With Severe Mental Illness
http://www.cpa-apc.org/Publications/Archives/CJP/2003/november/gaebel.asp

Determinants of the Public’s Preference for Social Distance From People With Schizophrenia
http://www.cpa-apc.org/Publications/Archives/CJP/2003/november/angermeyer.asp

Also, see...

TEN THINGS YOU CAN DO TO FIGHT STIGMA
http://www.naminys.org/factsheets.htm

"3. WATCH YOUR LANGUAGE. Most of us, including mental health professionals and mental health consumers, use terms and expressions related to mental illness that may perpetuate stigma. We use psychiatric labels to disparage, such as when we complain about aggressive drivers and call them "nuts" and "lunatics." We also depersonalize sufferers of mental illness by referring to them generically as "the mentally ill" or as "a schizophrenic." We can avoid contributing to stigma by avoiding such language and by using People First language to refer to individuals with psychiatric disorders.

4. MONITOR MEDIA AND REPORT STIGMATIZING MATERIAL to any of a number of organizations. The National Stigma Clearinghouse, the National Mental Health Association, and the National Alliance for the Mentally Ill protest such material by contacting the people -- authors, editors, movie producers, advertisers -- responsible for the material.

5. RESPOND TO STIGMATIZING MATERIAL IN THE MEDIA. Write, call, or e-mail stigmatizers yourself, expressing your concerns and providing more accurate information that they can use. The organizations mentioned above can help you figure out who to contact."

[madfloridian]

27. Here's the link to the CNN transcript. It was powerful.

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0408/01/le.00.html

What he said was right on the mark. There is nothing there that is wrong in anyway. They will spin and spin, but he opened the door.

Now what do we do with Lieberman? They are using him and Zell Miller to speak for all Democrats.

[KYDEM]

31. but if there is an attack

or an attack prevented the media will use his words and spin them to hurt us. His words will not be presented as he spoke them they will be presented out of context and he will not be allowed to refute them as with the scream stuff. The problem is the media is not on our side and they are in control. I am not saying what dean said is wrong I believe what he said is right but if the what he says can be used in the event of an attack or a prevented attack they will.

[madfloridian]

33. Stop letting them define every word we say. We can not be wimps.

He did not blame, just suggest. The right will twist our words anyway.

My God, when did we become such wimps!?

No matter what we say, they will twist. I support Dean's statement 100%, and it appears it will have an impact.

Did you read the transcript? Why are you so afraid? Don't be afraid.

[KYDEM]

36. I am not being a wimp

I believe this terrorist alert is a planned thwarted attack and they are setting things up for us to be critical of these alerts so that when the attack is prevented bush will be hero we will look like the ones that have politicized these alerts. Look how Kerry is being asked to back away from Dean for what he has said. They are not reporting all that he said only that he said that bush is using these alerts for political purposes. We have to figure a way to have this work to our avantage if in fact they do stop an attack.

[madfloridian]

38. The GOP and the media will spin whatever we say. Just say the truth.

How do you think they get us to roll over and play dead? We are so afraid they will make us "look bad." We should make them look bad. I am so tired of this GOP fear we have.

They will misquote and spin, no matter how careful we are.

They have done this for years, especially since the early 90s. Now we are all attuned to please them.

Of course there will be an attack. What the Democrats say right now will be laughed at and made fun of, no matter whether cautious or not.

They have us going in circles being afraid.

[OneTwentyoNine]

54. An attack after Bush has claimed he's keeping us safe?

There won't be an attack as long as Chimp is in the WH,only a thwarted attack which could be phonied up in an afternoon.

Looking for the October surprise? A phoney,thwarted terra attack is my guess.

David

[Cleita]

37. I hope Kerry gives Dean a position in his cabinet.

He will piss off a lot of Deanies if he doesn't. Nice to see you posting again.:hi:

[John_H]

40. Meanwhile Team Kerry, Team Daschle and Team DNC are busy

curling their fingers around their ankles.

[milkyway]

45. Repugnant Pataki just called Dean an embarrassment on CNN. Judy Whore

now coming up at 4:15est with a report on Dean's comments. Is he damaging his own party? I can't wait to find out.

[Cuban_Liberal]

50. Dr. Dean is crazy like a fox.

I think we know who the Kerry-Edwards campaign's 'pit bull' is going to be; Dr. Dean is going to say all of the things that need to be said, but that neither Kerry nor Edwards can say, for various reasons...
:evilgrin:

[janx]

51. Bien sur!

Privately, all three of them are probably laughing their backsides off.

[depakid]

52. Republicans think this is a win/win situation

If they call a terra alert, make a big show and nothing happens, then they can say: "see, we protected you." If something does happen, then they can say: "see, we told you so." All those Democratic naysayers are conspiracy theorists; they're weak, impotent and won't protect you."

The major upside is that they can count on their sycophants in the corporate media to drum up the fear everytime they need to block out unfavorable news-

The downside, of course is that Howard Dean is probably exactly right- this is purely political manipulation, and eventually the majority of people will get Ridge/Ashcroft fatigue.

Another downside (I hope) is that all of the fearmongering and disinformation will strengthen the case (and Kerry's motivation) for long overdue media re-regulation. Clinton has clearly been proven a fool for pandering to the corporate media- it came back to haunt him and dealt a serious, longlasting blow to his party.

Let's hope Kerry is smarter than to think he can cajole the media into being anything other than it is- his enemy.

[CWebster]

57. All Dean does is have the courage to state the obvious.

That is all he has ever done, while Kerry triangulates the neo-con scam. Sooner or later, the bubble bursts and Kerry is left compromised because he politically buys into the illusion.