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BBV: Why in the hell is ACLU slamming PAPER ballots???

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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 10:40 AM
Original message
BBV: Why in the hell is ACLU slamming PAPER ballots???
NPR for the past 2 mornings has been reporting on the fact that the ACLU has a lawsuit against the Davis recall. The BASIS of their lawsuit is that COMPUTERIZED/TOUCH SCREEN VOTING MACHINES AREN'T AVAILABLE TO EVERYONE (!!!!!!) and that people who use paper (punch card) ballots will be disenfranchised!!!

:wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:


We need to BLAST the ACLU with the Black-Box Voting information, and come down on them really hard for not getting on board to fight for our "Civil liberties".... which includes the right to have our votes counted...rights which the computerized voting machines take away at the whim of the corporate thieves, programmers and hackers.

Why, of all groups in the world, hasn't this group got a clue about what's going on!! The Leage of Women Voters is also in on this lawsuit???

Sheesh!!!
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The Night Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
1. I don't understand the ACLU's position either...
The ACLU seems to be on autopilot regarding the electronic voting machines. No one flying that plane.
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Caution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
2. They are slamming punch sheet voting
The ACLU is arguing that there are some counties in California which use the same type of "hanging chad" punch sheet systems that caused so many problems in Florida. And surprise, surprise, those counties are mainly peopled by minorities. The rest of the state use touch-screen voting systems. Touch-screen voting systems are what SHOULD be used. Those systems should be made up of open-source code that can go through all kinds of peer review and should also be backed up with a paper record which is recorded at the moment of the vote.

This is the second time I have seen someone miss the point of BBV. The point is NOT that we shouldnt use an electronic system, the point is that that system must be created by a non-partisan source and that the system must be scrutinized heavily and contain a backup paper record which will insure against electoral fraud.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. A non-partisan source like Diebold
Edited on Thu Aug-21-03 10:54 AM by wtmusic
unfortunately a corporation like Diebold can have a huge impact on not only their own destiny but the destiny of the state.

Have we worked out all the security flaws in the Diebold system? I think not. Hanging chads were blown way out of proportion, especially when you've got Katherine Harris purging 90,000 dem votes from the voter rolls.
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Sorry, but no, I DON'T "miss the point of BBV"!!! We're talking October 7
election, and the "hanging chad" argument doesn't fly compared to the computerized voting machines that are available, RIGHT NOW, to count the votes, with NO PAPER TRAIL!! We've already seen what the election results are with the touch screens. This election will have the same results as Georgia.

With source code hackable AT THIS POINT IN TIME, and no paper trail available, I'll count chads all day long in a legitimate, bipartisan hand-count that I can actually SEE the intent of the voter.

The ACLU doesn't have a clue, and are enabling the enemy.


:kick: :kick: :kick:
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gWbush is Mabus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
3. not sure, but
i think the ACLU wants to stall the recall as long as possible:

1. to educate voters on how to use the new voting systems
2. give them time to register
3. to prevent the candidate with the most name recognition from winning a 2 month race
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. They can stall it, then, but NOT under this banner!!
This is sending the opposite message of the one that really disenfranchizes ALL the voters.


:kick:
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
7. here's more on the ACLU's motivation
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/08/18/california.re... /

In its lawsuit, the ACLU said the continued use of punch card machines would "needlessly and unlawfully disenfranchise African-American, Latino and Asian-American voters."

Ramona Ripston, executive director of the ACLU of Southern California, said in a statement, "I don't believe any one of us would like to see a repeat of the Florida <2000> presidential election debacle here in the Golden State."

In 2000, the ACLU filed suit not only on behalf of Florida voters but also those in other states, including California. The state then agreed to update its voting machines by the March 2004 presidential primary.

"If the October election goes forward, we can predict with absolute certainty that every Californian's vote will not count," Mark Rosenbaum, legal director of the ACLU of Southern California, said in a statement. "Democracy in California should not hang by a chad."

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chadm Donating Member (480 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
8. The ACLU...
is not necessarily on your side people.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
9. They are still following the original script...
... and they haven't yet realized it was someone else's script.

A very large monkey wrench has been tossed into the very intricate plans that were developed to get Black Box Voting machines into widespread use before the 2004 elections. The ACLU, League of Women Voters, etc., haven't yet responded to that. There is a great deal of inertia within these organizations.

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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Then they need to hear it from the DU BBV Squad!!
The fact that the ACLU and LWV don't understand the seriousness of the potential for fraud on computerized voting machines w/ no paper back-up is unacceptable. We need to do some serious e-mailing and letter writing.

:kick:
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Hanuman Donating Member (340 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
10. I would have to say...
that the Davis administration, and more generally the democratic party and the ACLU are political allies- and the ACLU is doing what it can to help it's friends.
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RedEagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. LWV
There is widespread unhappiness in the League of Women Voter's over this issue.

The edict to support paperless voting came from the top down. This is not how the LWV is supposed to work.

Many League members seem to have been litterally told to just shut up about it.

Many of these people are very ingrained in how the League is "supposed" to work. The top echelon really dissed them, didn't follow procedure, and are now telling them to stifle. Many in the ranks still can't get out of the "procedure" thing, even though the national leaders didn't follow it.

What the League needs in this case in a grass roots revolt.

The League position on this does not reflect what many of them feel. But, according to the "rules" they are not supposed to say anything contradicting that.

Talk about being put in a straight jacket.

Until the rank and file of the League revolt, I don't think you will see a change.

However, I would start characterising it as a leadership edict, and not one arrived at by a democratic process withing the group.
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SharonAnn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Well, since I received my LWV dues notification today, guess
I'll just have to explain to them why I won't be renewing and why i will be encouraging all my political friends (many LWV members) to cancel their memberships.

If the League of Women Voters doesn't try to protect our rights to a fair election, then what possible use are they?
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. The corporations have covered their butts, looks like...
Between Cathy Cox in Georgia and the League of Women Voters and the ACLU....pretty well paid off, or infiltrated, if you ask me.

When enough money speaks, people turn into whores.

:kick:
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. don't forget Avi Rubin
he just admitted a financial relationship with Diebold's competitor.

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/2...

I provided the link since when I raise the issue of someone possibly being influenced by corporate money, I think it's only fair to back it up.

Have Cox or LWV or the ACLU admitted similar potential conflicts of interest?

The charges against the ACLU bug me the most, since I am a donating member there.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
15. When I heard this, the guy from the CATO Institute
was on our side WRT BBV, and the ACLU woman was claiming that the EV machines were basically infallible, and the CATO guy was trying to explain that they are not. Astonishing, really.
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