Is it OK for the DNC to prohibit delegates from displaying anti-war signs?

[tedzbear]

Poll question: Is it OK for the DNC to prohibit delegates from displaying anti-war signs?

The Kucinich delegates have been told they can't display their anti-war signs or other peace insignia (scarves).

The DNC floor patrol are censoring any signs of life among their party's left wing contingent.

I wonder if they will even let Kucinich speak, and if so, allow him to speak HIS mind and not theirs.

:kick:

[Beacho]

1. I voted an emphatic NO!

But can I get some confirmation of this?

[tedzbear]

6. Sorry, no paper trail.

:bounce:

[redqueen]

8. How about ANY evidence WHATSOEVER?

:grr:

[tedzbear]

38. Democracy Now interviewed a Kucinich delegate who says this happened.

He said the DNC has censored their entire platform and "refuses to toss them even one bone."

I hope the DNC will come to their senses and allow the anti-war posters to go back up.

:kick:

[sangh0]

45. DN also claimed the DNC was taking their scarves away

DN lies

[tedzbear]

90. Charles Underwood, Kucinich delegate from Minn. is a liar?

"And as Gore and other high profile Democrats spoke, some delegates charge that their rights to free expression were being denied last night. Delegates for former presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich alleged that they had some of their signs and placards confiscated, as well as scarves they wore that identified them as peace delegates. On the floor of the convention, as the speeches wrapped up last night we caught up with 2 Kucinich delegates from Minneapolis: Donna Cassutt and Charles Underwood."

---Democracy Now


http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/07/27/144247

[redqueen]

95. There were NO signs other than the ones they handed out.

So that exposes ONE lie right there.

No delegates said anything except these two... how interesting.

[ClassWarrior]

109. Soooo...

Do his credentials match or exceed those of respected DUer, journalist, truth-teller, and former paid Kucinich staffer Will Pitt??

Scroll down to post #33: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

btw... The Democracy Now link you cited says, "Delegates for former presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich alleged that they had some of their signs and placards confiscated, as well as scarves they wore that identified them as peace delegates."

"Alleged." "Some." That's a far cry from the blanket implication that the DNC is discriminating against DK and all of his delegates.

[Selwynn]

141. Of course he wouldn't know because he hasn't even seen the convention

.. he just read an article that he thought would support his predisposed desire to be pissed off at democrats and made a stupid post.

[genius]

2. Cowards. This nonsense will cost us the election

I'm tired of going to conventions where the delegates walk away talking about going to another party. When will these people learn that WE ARE NOT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY and stop playing to the Republicans.

[MuseRider]

3. Kucinich speaks tomorrow I think.

I would not worry about him, he will get his message out, he always does.

[genius]

7. This is also about the reason so many people are leaving the party

The leadership needs to stop pretending it's fascist.

[redqueen]

12. Why, because they believe smears?

is that the reason?

[tedzbear]

50. This is not a smear.

I heard it on Pacifica Radio straight from the mouth of a Kucinich delegate on the floor.

He also said the Kucinich delegates have not been allowed any INPUT in the convention's platform. He said the DNC have not even "tossed them one bone."

:kick:

[redqueen]

56. *sigh*

There are TWO delegates making these accusations.

How many delegates does Kucinich have at the convention?

Why aren't they out there ranting on whatever outlet will have them?

[AntiCoup2K4]

14. Some of them aren't pretending.

From, Marshall, et al ARE fascists.

[damnraddem]

22. The nation is still divided on the War, although trending to ...

a big majority on the anti-war side. The Party is divided. Anti-war signs on the floor would only signify that -- they could be countered by pro-war signs, printed by the DLC. That would make the Party look open, unlike the GOP. Instead, they prohibit diversity. After the election, President Kerry is going to have a lot to answer for.

Yes, the DNC/DLC needs to stop pretending it's fascist. The problem is that the GOP leadership doesn't need to pretend -- it IS fascist.

[wuushew]

4. What the hell is wrong with a peace symbol?

Is peace such a uncomfortable and devisive concept that no disention should be allowed at all in this election?

This election seems to be less about platform differences and more about trying to win on the lack of charisma that Bush exudes. Damn the mushy middle!

[redqueen]

10. PEACE SYMBOLS ARE ALLOWED

CHENEY when will this crap end?!

:mad:

[Feanorcurufinwe]

136. I feel your pain.

[JohnKleeb]

137. there was a line earlier that refered to some people

as "kerry enforcers", Ive seen the term Kerrybot used too. It is painful to see, peace signs are allowed, we've seen and heard eyewitness testimony from DUers who were there.

[redqueen]

5. Please provide proof

This crap is getting Cheneying sickening.

[JohnKleeb]

9. if the dem party was so pro war as people want to believe

Just tell me why the hell are the coleaders of the fight against the war resolution speaking. Those two happen to be Kucinich and Nancy Pelosi. Most of the congressional speakers Ive seen thus far were against the war. I want proof of this too, Ive heard eyewitness testimony from two people who were there and I trust their account.

[genius]

15. Nancy keeps caving to the Republicans

She freaks out if a Democrat doesn't say the words "under God" in the pledge. I'm not expecting to be impressed by her at all.

[JohnKleeb]

Nancy has a record more to the left than Dennis

Yes but it is true that she led the coalition against the war in the house with Kucinich, is it not? Most of the congressional speakers I see listed are against the war.

[genius]

30. Nancy's support of HOMELAND SECURITY was certainly leftist

She's a moderate at best and a little to the conservative side of moderate. Gephardt, who voted against Homeland Security, is more liberal and that's not saying much.

[JohnKleeb]

40. Actually she has a very liberal record

she's in the frigging progressive caucus for christ sakes. Gephardt isnt really much of a liberal so much as a new deal dem, hes a bit hawkish but not as much as people say, and a little traditional on social issues but very economically liberal.

[genius]

55. She isn't backing any of the liberal bills.

She pays lip service at best to being a liberal.

[redqueen]

59. It's politics

horse-trading...

*sigh*

This is why the left is where it is today... unrealistic expectations.

[Selwynn]

108. maybe that's because the "liberal" bills suck

[GreenArrow]

123. no, it's because they will cut into someone's

filthy lucre.

[Selwynn]

128. or.... because they suck.

[GreenArrow]

143. no,

it's because they will prevent someone from making a cheap buck, usually at the public's expense.

[Selwynn]

150. oooh ooh! How about this instead..... because..... they suck.

[tedzbear]

16. It's being reported by Democracy Now and Pacifica radio...

Why don't you listen in?

[redqueen]

19. Anyone with EYES SAW the peace symbols FOR THEMSELVES!

CRAP why is this happening?!

WHY!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2076401&mesg_id=2076401

[MadHound]

33. They're not saying all friend,

Just that some were being confiscated. We've provided two sources for you so far, why do you find this so hard to believe?

[redqueen]

39. Because I saw those pink scarves on TV!

:grr:

So because TWO people had a run in with some officious people, that means the DNC is out to get us?

:puke:

[ClassWarrior]

Amen. If it did happen - and it's possible...

...it shouldn't be used to paint broad brush strokes that only serve to disrupt and divide.

[tedzbear]

58. Evidently they were told to take them down by the floor patrol.

And maybe they reversed themselves and let them go back up. If so, it is a telling example of the deep divide in the Democratic party.

[redqueen]

62. And why are only two talking about it?

If it's such a huge big deal... why just two?

This is sad... why are you working so hard to defend such a ridiculous charge?

Maybe this... maybe that...

:(

[MadHound]

29. Some proof for you

"Delegates for former presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich alleged that they had some of their signs and placards confiscated, as well as scarves they wore that identified them as peace delegates"
<http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/07/27/144247>

[redqueen]

37. How disappointing.

*sigh*

Did you miss the first thread?

Did you watch the convention?

Did you somehow not notice the peace signs and scarves in the audience?

:evilfrown:

[MadHound]

49. No, I didn't miss the first thread

And no I didn't watch the convention. Yes, I realize that there were some peace signs, etc. out on the floor. I also realize that a couple of independent sources have confirmed that SOME peace signs, scarves etc. were confiscated. Why do you find this so hard to believe? Because it is the Democratic Party? Because you wish it so?

I remember the '68 Democratic convention all too well, and how they cracked down on the peace protestors there, both on and off the floor, I have no trouble doubting that there are a few overzealous enforcers at this convention. Denial just ain't a river OK?

[redqueen]

64. You say a couple of independent sources confirmed

that 'some' signs/scarves were confiscated.

Where did you hear / read that?

[MadHound]

71. Well, let's see here

I gave you a link earlier to an article on DemocracyNow, and someone else mentioned an interview on Pacifica Radio. I'll see if I can find more OK.

[redqueen]

76. Are you kidding?

those sources are the outlets publicizing the two delegates' charges - so you're saying the delegates are confirming their own story?

[MadHound]

87. ?!

Two sources. At least two Kucinich delegates were hassled. Yes, those sources are publishing the delegates allegations, that's what news outlets do. So what is the problem? Do you think these two delegates are lying?

Sheesh!

[redqueen]

89. Two delegates make allegations

The publishers did not confirm those allegations, they simply publicized them. The source cannot confirm the claim! :crazy:

I'm not saying they're lying, but I'm CERTAIN that this was ISOLATED since I saw MANY MANY pink scarves, shirts, and peace symbols!

Now ask yourself THIS:

IF this is some kind of widespread attempt by the DNC to stomp all over Kucinich's delegates' anti-war message, why are only TWO delegates making a stink?

Why are there scarves and shirts and symbols everywhere?

And add THIS gem to the stack of evidence against this claim:

There are NO POSTERS of ANY KIND besides the ones they hand out. NONE.

So if they're trying to claim that they were singled out by being asked not to hold up signs they brought in, they're LYING!

[MadHound]

105. So no confirmation no foul, eh?

Even though this is double sourced, it apparently doesn't matter. After all, it was only two disgruntled delegates after all. Doesn't matter. Whatever friend. I think that this is just another example of the lack of democracy in the Democratic party, albeit a small one.

And of course the DNC really abhors those "free speech" pens outside too, so much so that they're not going to say a damn thing about them, after all, the pens are helping keep the anti-war people off their back.

Look friend, if you wish to believe that all is sweetness and light at the DNC, fine. But ask yourself this, why would these people being making these accusations?

[redqueen]

107. This is bordering on being irrational

In order to cooroborate something, you have to confirm it with someone OTHER than the person saying it to begin with.

I'm going to ignore the party-trashing because it's Cheneying OBVIOUSLY counterproductive right now.

And as for a reason... I have no clue... my best guess is that they had a run in with some officious people and wanted to gripe.

[Name removed]

112. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MadHound]

119. Excuse me, but who are you to tell me what to do?!

Jeez, talk about censorship! Is that your answer to everything you disagree with? Shut up! Just because I have better things to do than watch a convention that is already rigged for a preprogrammed result, please, get a fucking grip.

Look friend, I'm more than likely going to vote for Kerry this fall, if for no other reason than Supremem Court appointments. However, this doesn't mean that I approve of the vast majority of his positions, nor of the direction the party is taking. So if you don't like the fact, or the fact that I'm going to roundly criticize both, tough shit.

Now do you understand? Or do you just think that censoring somebody is the answer to everything? Sheesh, and people think freepers have facist attitudes! Censorship uber alles!:eyes:

[Selwynn]

130. What I said was, if you didn't watch the convention...

then you really don't have much place to be commenting on it. Of course I used different, shorter, words to express that which got my post deleted.

I don't think we should have to give credence, or time, or care at all about opinions from ignorance. If you want to talk about how good or bad F911 is for example, then watch it. If you haven't seen it, then any opinion you give about what goes on in it is pretty stupid.

The same holds true about the convention or anything else. If you HAD watched the convention you would have noticed that peace signs were there, on camera, loud and proud, and that there is no official policy for banning them - or if there is, its clearly not being enforced and is meaningless. You would also know a whole lot of other things too, but of course you didn't watch the convention at all, yet still feel like the intelligent thing to do is have an opinion on it.

That's not reasoned discourse. That's just trolling.
Have a nice day.

[Selwynn]

131. One other thing:

"So if you don't like the fact, or the fact that I'm going to roundly criticize both, tough shit."

I don't care at all of you want roundly criticize anything, in fact I welcome it. In fact, the odds are that I would agree with your criticisms, if they come from a progressive perspective more liberal than the moderate Democratic party platform in 04.

What I do care about is knowing what you're talking about. You want to talk about what is going on at the convention - the watch it for yourself. Otherwise, you have no qualified basis from which to speak. All you would have needed to do is actually watched the convention to see that the there are plenty of peace signs that are not being banned - so much so in fact that I seriously question the validity of the story in its entirety. And you would too if you had SEEN any of the convention for yourself. But you haven't. You just wanted to take an opportunity to be negative for nothing but negativity's sake. You didn't think "hmm I should investigate to see if this claim is substantial and I should certainly watch some of the convention I want to comment on to make sure I know what I'm talking about." No, you were so eager to have some more negative "goods" so that you could continue to feed your own negativity and discontent that you didn't even worry about how intellectually honest it was, nor care that you didn't even have any first hand knowledge with what you were talking about.

And to me that's unfortunate. You have the "right" to say stupid things if you want to. But you should also embrace the responsibility for using self-regulatory judgment and choose to avoid saying and or doing ignorant things that can be avoided. And whether you do or don't do that, I also enjoy the right to comment on exactly what I think of the quality of your arguments, whether you like it or not.

[MadHound]

135. Gee friend, now you are assuming that I'm either stupid, uninformed

Or both:eyes: Gee, it isn't like I can't read(I must be literate since I'm reading and responding to your pointless little lecture). It isn't like there aren't replays of the convention all over the television. It isn't like there aren't first hand reports from delegates and others. It isn't like I'm not getting reports of what went on from PEOPLE ON THIS VERY THREAD!!!

I'm fully cognizant that many many people last night were wearing peace signs etc out on the floor, if you will look at my previous posts on this thread YOU WOULD SEE THAT. Instead you think that it is best to lecture me for not being glued to my television in some sort of act of Democratic devotion. Well let me tell you friend, I don't need to sit and watch a cheerleading contest that is aired for the benefit of the swing voter.

If you also notice, I mention that it was two people getting hassled, and no, I don't think that such measures are the right way to deal with ANYBODY. I've been to the Dem convintion before, and quite frankly those floor managers can be little fucking Nazis. Do I think we've heard the full story, no. But to totally deny that it ever happened is ludicrous on the face of it since we have first hand reports.

Now then, if you think it is wrong for somebody to criticize something if they haven't had first hand experience of it is foolish on the face of it. Gee, it isn't like we don't criticize Bush without having firsthand knowledge. And how many people around here were railing on the Passion without seeing it? Why weren't you complaining about that? Or are you just railing on me because *gasp* I'm criticizing the nominee apparent. Well get used to it friend. You and I have gone around before, and if you noticed, I'm none to happy with the party, haven't been for awhile. So brand me a heretic if you wish, but don't ever try to shut me up friend. I suspect that you and I have a lot in common, and would probably be good to have a beer with, but I do not take kindly to somebody trying to stifle me, understand?

[Selwynn]

140. Yes, I assum people who don't actually experience what they talk about

..are all those things.

People railing about the Passion without seeing it were also pretty stupid. Your response deserves no more attention than that.

[genius]

44. Wonder if it's the Orange County Delegation behind the suppression

Last year, the conservatives (who are currently at the convention because of pulling strings) on the Orange County Democratic Central Committee actually threatened the Kucinich people with all kinds of nasty stuff if they didn't quit the campaign or get out of party politics. The Kucinich people hung in there and didn't let the threats scare them off.

[drdigi420]

11. irrelevant poll based on bad intelligence

[porphyrian]

13. How can we say we espouse freedom...

...when we're so willing to take basic freedoms away through censorship? It is this same hypocrisy which has been chasing liberals away from the Democratic party to independent ones. Once we get past this Bush shit, the left and right contingents of this party are going to throw down.

[redqueen]

17. This is a LIE

AAAAAAARGH!

[Beacho]

18. Still waiting for confirmation

My rage is on standby

[redqueen]

21. Did you miss the first thread?

I saw peace scarves and the peace signs myself on C-Span last night.

Why is it so easy to get liberals to go chasing after red herrings?

[porphyrian]

20. How can we say we espouse freedom...?

...when we're so willing to take basic freedoms away through censorship? It is this same hypocrisy which has been chasing liberals away from the Democratic party to independent ones. Once we get past this Bush shit, the left and right contingents of this party are going to throw down.

[redqueen]

24. Yes, we heard that the first time.

Unfortunately, this smear still isn't true.

[porphyrian]

34. Sorry about the duplicate...

...I got some message saying it didn't submit.

So, the original post is a lie? I still meant what I said.

[redqueen]

41. Yes, it's a lie

apparently a couple of delegates got harassed, and they're making a federal public case out of it, and helping to divide the left, instead of addressing this ISOLATED incident with the DNC.

[genius]

23. Nader doesn't have to campaign there. The DNC is doing it for him.

We need to bypass the DNC and the DLC in selecting our Democratic candidates and platform. These people are acting like a bunch of luney fascists. The last thing we need is for Nader to pull enough votes to keep Bush in office but the DNC is working hard to help him get those votes from the conventions delegates.

[redqueen]

27. What is your agenda?

This is a lie.

[ClassWarrior]

25. That's a LIE.

There was a thread here this morning in which several eyewitnesses at the convention - including Will Pitt - said there were peace pins and pink peace scarves aplenty. I for one noted a delegate on television last night who was wearing the same red, white, and blue peace pin I wear.

Quit passing on TALKING POINTS DESIGNED TO DIVIDE US.

AND I REFUSE TO VOTE IN A POLL WITH A FLAWED PREMISE.

[tedzbear]

31. Democracy Now interviewed a Kucinich delegate who says this happened.

I heard it with my own ears. He said the DNC have totally censored them and will not even throw the peaceniks a bone.

Hopefully the DNC will realize their mistake and allow the peace signs to go back up.

:kick:

[ClassWarrior]

36. You heard a second-hand account on a TV program...

...and that's more credible than the first-hand accounts of DUers on the convention floor?

Okay...

[tedzbear]

74. A Kucinich delegate ON THE FLOOR is a second hand account?

I don't think so.

The radio interviewed him live and he said this happened to all of them. He also said the Kucinich delegation were extremely disappointed at being completely locked out from the convention's platform.

[redqueen]

77. Why do ONE delegates' comments matter more to you

than Kucinich's opinions and those of his many other delegates?

Please answer this.

[ClassWarrior]

84. What's this delegate's name?

Do his credentials match or exceed those of respected DUer, journalist, truth-teller, and former paid Kucinich staffer Will Pitt??

Scroll down to post #33: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2076401&mesg_id=2076401

[tedzbear]

93. Charles Underwood, Kucinich delegate from Minn.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/07/27/144247

[ClassWarrior]

97. Cool. Never heard of him.

You didn't answer my second question.

btw... The Democracy Now link you cited says, "Delegates for former presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich alleged that they had some of their signs and placards confiscated, as well as scarves they wore that identified them as peace delegates."

"Alleged." "Some." That's a far cry from the blanket implication that the DNC is discriminating against DK and all of his delegates.

[rock]

26. No. The rules shouln't be content biased

Within reason of course.

[redqueen]

28. This is a lie... just an attempt to divide the left.

*sigh*

[ClassWarrior]

32. Don't let the disrupters frustrate you RQ.

You're doing a great job.

:hug:

[redqueen]

48. I just called the Kucinich campaign

this has me so upset.

We shouldn't be so easily divided... this breaks my heart.

How can Kucinich remain steadfast and committed, yet so many of his supporters break for the hills at the slightest sign of adversity?

:cry:

[Cheswick2.0]

47. will you STOP please

You are saying it is a lie, but clearly some of what these people are talking about did happen. DK would not lie about something like this. He is speaking tonight and he would not get his butt booted from that position just to tell soem silly lie about peace signs.

[redqueen]

51. He is speaking TOMORROW night

and he has not said ANYTHING about this!

:wtf:

[Cheswick2.0]

67. relax you are getting too upset about this

you can not force unity without driving people to stay home or vote for Nader. People are tired of being bullied into silence.
Clearly some delegates had a bad experience and are talking about it. Do you really want people to think the Democrats have become the other Fascist party? Let people on DU express themselves, it is not going to hurt anything.

[redqueen]

70. Not 'some'... TWO

THEY want people to think the DNC is somehow censoring Kucinch's delegates.

That's nearly as traitorous as the GOP pimping Nader.

:grr:

[emulatorloo]

145. I watched MSNBC coverage Tues nite and there were TONS of Pink Slips

in practically every floor interview I saw people were happily holding up/wearing/waving pink slips/peace scarves.

[ClassWarrior]

54. Please cite a link to what DK said on this.

[Cheswick2.0]

61. No I will not answer your demand to post a link

Stop being so fucking paranoid. We are all democrats and everyone has a right to express their disgust. You are not the freaking Unity Police, lighten up. No one is being divided, people are talking and NOTHING THAT IS SAID ON DU IS GOING TO EFFECT THE ELECTION.

[ClassWarrior]

63. Yeah, I thought so.

[redqueen]

68. DK hasn't said anything about it

Only TWO out of HOW MANY delegates are making a stink, and MANY on this board are willing to help them TRY to divide us.

Sorry, no sale here.

[tinanator]

146. If your unity is that fragile, you might want to take a long nap

cause this little sidebar aint nothin compared to whats coming.
Unity- complete accord among persons regarding attitudes, opinions, intentions, etc.
I cant believe the shit you are saying about myself and others who simply raised the question of what the fuck happened? Now we are agent provocateurs? Outrageous. Exactly what flavor Kool-Aid must I purchase to become assimilated? Attracting flies with vinegar?
Nader is NO FACTOR. He did not put GW in the White House, the SCOTUS and the cowards and accomplices in the Democratic Party did. Nader is their cover, and now the biggest red herring of all time. If the centrists were THAT scared of Nader, they wouldnt shun the basic concern over Iraq. Youre being played like a cheap violin and treating your fellow citizens like sub humans. rethink.

[porphyrian]

78. The left is already divided...

...things like this just point it out. Most of us agree that Kerry is the best way to get rid of Bush, however, and we are legion.

[redqueen]

82. Yes, I agree with you

however it's alarming to me that some newcomers (I'll leave it at that) are outright accusing Kucinich supporters who aren't getting on the "DNC is evil" bandwagon of being FRAUDS.

This reeks to me of a smear campaign, and I'm not Cheneying putting up with it!

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PeaceForever]

43. At least the Democrats have a lot of antiwar members

That's the way I look at it. Even though John Kerry is prowar and wants to expand the war and get aggressive against Saudi Arabia, at least he'll have a lot of advisors with strong ethics who will put a check on the warmongering. Certainly Kerry will have a lot more antiwar advisors than Bush.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[redqueen]

72. A voice of reason!

:hi:

[ClassWarrior]

79. Hear! Hear!

On the other hand, we could abandon the party to the middle, and then us antiwar people will influence nothing.

[Cheswick2.0]

53. The democrats do not have th ecity locked down

they are not in charge of security.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MaineDem]

42. "The Kucinich delegates have been told ..."

By whom?

Where's the proof of this? One delegate?

Sorry, until I read more about this - which is what I asked for on the other thread - I reserve opinion.

[Scorpious_Maximus]

46. NO, but

We do not stand for censorship... and I am as anti-war as anyone here.

However, we are trying to reach that ever so small "on the fence" voter.


How anyone could not have their mind made up is beyond me, but if we appear like a bunch of radical peaceniks, it gives the Republicans amunition.

I hate to say it, but we really need to swallow some of what we all know to be true in order to win.

[AntiCoup2K4]

52. I understand that some people doubt the story, but.....

...why the FUCK would anybody vote yes in this poll?

Please tell me it's just lurking freeps and that even you DLC shills (and you know who you are) are not advocating censorship of DEMOCRATIC thought at a DEMOCRATIC convention.

[genius]

65. A lot of Republicans have joined our party and are trying to Republicanize

it. I've met all too many of these people. I know a Democratic County Central committee secretary who is pro-war, pro-death penalty, pro-defense contractor and opposed to freedom of speech and freedom of religion. Figure that one out. Some people are at the convention because of merit. Some are there because they pulled strings after backing a more conservative candidate that lost.

[redqueen]

73. I didn't even bother voting

I'm not participating in the poll because it's based on a smear campaign.

[supernova]

60. Still not enough evidence

that is is some kind of mass DK delagate lockdown. Until I see further info, this is an isolated incident between people who are a little too full of themselves.

[madfloridian]

69. " people who are a little too full of themselves. "

At DU that term is usually reserved for Dean supporters. Changing the playing field now?

That is a terrible thing to say to passionate people who care that their country went to war on lies!

[redqueen]

80. Oh come now

that's not what they meant and you know it.

Why try to deepen the divide? Is the inflammatory stuff already out there not good enough?

[madfloridian]

86. I did not just deepen the divide..."the full of themselves" did.

I am very very tired of hurting so damn bad inside about an illegal, immoral war.....and being told I am a one-issue person, politically unsavvy novice, and totally naive about politics.

This has been being done to those of us who supported Dean for ages now here at DU. That was an ugly comment to Kucinich supporters, and I am stunned you are blaming me for her/his comment.

Don't deepen the divide? Hey, all I want us to do is stand up and say we are not about war and imperialism. Don't hide from it.

I want to know what our nominee is going to do in the future, and when I ask I get accused of causing trouble. Somebody better be asking.

[supernova]

91. Did this happen to you personally?

I'm asking because I want to know if you were a participant in that event. If you weren't, I don't see how you could feel insulted.

And once again. I am also an anti war protestor. I am not your enemy. The GOP is.

[redqueen]

92. By expanding it to try to claim he was smearing Dean's supporters

you very much were possibly deepening the divide. Not intentionally maybe, but that doesn't take anything away from the divisiveness of the claim you made.

There were many comments that were hurtful lobbed every whichaway. Right now we're supposed to be supporting the party to get rid of Bush. If that's not your number one goal then I don't know what to say to you.

Do you not agree that swing voters will decide the election, so it is that audience which MUST be targeted now with Kerry's message?

[ClassWarrior]

96. She said a couple of delegates were full of themselves.

Not all Kucinch supporters. Cheney! I'm a Kucinich supporter! And I agree with her.

[redqueen]

101. I thought she meant the officious people

who allegedly told them they couldn't wear their scarves...

:shrug:

[supernova]

104. I meant both

without seeing some report (rather than hearsay) or listening to the participants on either side, it seems to me that both sides got a little too full of themselves, both the floor manager or whatever and the delegates.

I'm sure there must have been a businesslike way to resolve whatever was the problem, but instead, egos and tempers flared and it turned into a big thing.

edit: thanks for your support and common sense redqueen and ClassWarrior. :thumbsup:

[redqueen]

110. Makes sense

I agree this should have been handled professionally. That, IMO, would have been the way to address any grievances without throwing red meat to those forces that seek to divide the lefty vote.

And thank you!

(Can I join that fan club, btw?)

[ClassWarrior]

113. Group hug!

:grouphug:

[supernova]

114. LOL! Back at ya!

:grouphug: I :loveya: hugs. :D

[redqueen]

117. Wooohooo! A big PEACE AND UNITY GROUP HUG!

:grouphug:

:loveya:

[supernova]

118. All You Need is Love

:grouphug:

Until I see further evidence, I'm going to chalk this up to a communications breakdown/misunderstanding between individuals rather than some insideous DNC policy.

[ClassWarrior]

122. Agreed.

And it was great to make two new DU friends today. Thanks supernova and red queen.

[redqueen]

125. Thanks to you two, too!

Ain't it sad that Bush will cream Kerry in the debates, though? If only Kerry had Bush's folksy speaking style.

Ah well... we can still enjoy our little victories. :)

[ClassWarrior]

127. Yeah, I feel sorry for Kerry...

[supernova]

81. Uh No

I wasn't aware that phrase had special meaning. I was talking about both the accusers and the accused. Without more evidence, it's a mountain out of a molehill.

Hey, I realize people get touchy, but it serves no purpose to get upset about something that isn't in evidence.

And I AM one of those anti-war protesters.

[CWebster]

75. The truth has to be locked away in a cage

in order for them to project the illusion of unity. The only unity is in opposing Bush.

Even the speeches are vetted and sent back for re-writes to stay within the confines of no overt criticism the president. It was a tactic used before during the '02 elections and it landed them in the crapper. There are tremendous chasms in the Democratic party right now, which is why it is so essential to create the illusion of unity while playing down dissent or conflict. The only thing holding it all together is ABB. There should be no illusions about that.

[redqueen]

83. "... to project the illusion of unity"

Gee that's funny... Kucinch himself said he's never seen the party this unified.

Now why oh why would anyone want to try to convince Kucinich delegates that they were being mistreated by the DNC, and that the party wasn't in fact unified, and that that unity was only an illusion?

And your claim about speeches being vetted ... hmm well I did hear that from the REICH-WING SPIN MACHINE yesterday... do you have some OTHER source or are you quoting them?

[CWebster]

88. Funny thing is

I never saw you battle so hard for what Kucinich stood against then, to what he has capitulated to, now.

Now, you need to do a little research about Pacifica, which on the previous thread, you acknowleged you knew little about. Pacifica, like other progressive outlets, websites, and activist groups was most likely to support Kucinich and his message, not ostricize, marginalize or contemptously reject it like the REICH-WING SPIN MACHINE or, even, horrors, the Democratic party, itself.

[redqueen]

99. Yes you did

back when you were supporting Dean we battled on other topics. You may not remember it, but I've battled hard for Kucinich before.

I've not done any research about Pacifica independently... I've seen them make claims that were not supported by history, and I've seen other DUers point out their weakness in that respect. It seems there is concrete evidence that they are more interested in promoting a certain point of view than promoting actual facts.

Again, whose claim are you repeating here with respect to Democrats vetting their speeches?

You seem to have forgotten to address that question.

[CWebster]

106. More interested in promoting a certain pont of view...

You mean, like the one Dennis used to promote? How easily he laid down that burden.

The bit about the speeches, like the political views of Pacifica, Democracy Now, and Amy Goodman, are fairly common knowledge (if you are listening and not occupied with appealing to the swing voters at the expense of everything you define yourself as).

[redqueen]

115. Ahhh, 'common knowledge'

the kind written, produced, and promoted by the mighty wurlitzer.

And stop insulting me. Your insinuation that somehow those of us who choose to fight from inside the system are less committed to our goals is offensive in the extreme.

Please make a note you also insult Kucinich himself, and Dean as well, when you pretend that those who support Kerry completely now are any less committed to their ideals.

[CWebster]

120. Ho hum

http://news.bostonherald.com/dncConvention/view.bg?articleid=37155

[redqueen]

124. Ho hum indeed, that proves nothing

it just says Kerry et al want a more positive tone, and then makes an assertion about vetting speeches which it interestingly fails to cite a source for.

Critical thinking, friend...

[tinanator]

147. whose history?

Its a crying shame you dont have better access to the story and recent historical struggles for Pacifica. Thats too bad.
They were and have been the sole outlet for legitimate news and investigative reports long ago abandoned by the corporate whorehouse.
Iran-Contra, CIA-Contra-Crack, October Surprise, Greg Palast, Robert Knight, Palestinian issues. No wonder.

[supernova]

85. All I ask

is CAN WE PLEASE GET ELECTED FIRST?

After JK and JE are sworn in, along with a majority of the House and Senate, then we can go back to our regularly scheduled infighting and backbiting.

But let's get elected first.

[Beacho]

94. All I've heard so far

is that a couple(as in two) delegates got into it with a floor manager.

hardly a 'conspiracy to supress the peace delagates'

I don't know what you heard on Pacifica or Democracy Now, but if they inflated this incident to make hay, then I just lost all respect for both orgs.

[supernova]

98. Thank you

That's my point exactly.

I think DN is a fine program. I'd like to hear the report about this contratemps for myself if it's online somewhere. I didn't see it at the DN site.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

100. this "Delegate for Peace" displayed her sign on the convention floor

[redqueen]

103. I saw several of those

and I wasn't even paying that close attention!

big, sad *sigh*

[supernova]

111. Ohh nice pic!

Thanks Elsewhere's Daughter. :D

I was watching the PBS feed and they didn't show a lot of the floor, so I couldn't tell.

[sandnsea]

134. I think I saw you!!!

Were you doing a little dance and moving your pink slip back and forth? I saw someone with blonde hair doing that on C-Span. So I guess the story isn't true, I didn't know these were the pink signs they were talking about.

[Beacho]

102. Does Democracy Now archive?

I'd like to hear it for myself.

[deutsey]

126. Here is the passage from the DN transcript:

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/07/27/144247#transcript

About halfway down:


AMY GOODMAN: Former Vice President Al Gore speaking last night at the Democratic National Convention. While Gore spoke out against voting for a third-party candidate, some delegates on the floor of the convention explained or complained that the speeches coming from the podium did not reflect a clear enough distinction between policies of President Bush and the platform of John Kerry, particularly on the issue of the occupation of Iraq and civil liberties. The events last night were highly scripted. Everyone in attendance was expected to remain on message and as Gore and other high-profile Democrats spoke, some delegates charged their rights of free expression were being denied. Delegates for former Presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich alleged that they had some of their signs and placards confiscated, as well as scarves they wore that identified them as peace delegates. On the floor of the convention as the speeches wrapped up last night, we caught up with two Kucinich delegates from Minneapolis, Donna Kassett and Charles Underwood.

CHARLES UNDERWOOD: I am just very disappointed that had there is no ability to express any hope for peace on the floor of this convention. We’ve had our signs confiscated, we’ve had our scarves for peace – you know – Delegate For Peace, confiscated. We’ve had people that tell us to sit down and be quiet. We’ve got no particular points for peace in the platform. This is becoming an extremely narrow democratic tent. And I’d love nothing better than to get behind a peace candidate for President. A little something, a little bone for us who want peace. And I am not getting any of that. And I am very disappointed. See these people in the lime vests? Those are the Kerry enforcers.

AMY GOODMAN: And what were your kerchiefs… ?

CHARLES UNDERWOOD: The kerchiefs -

DONNA KASSETT: “Delegate for Peace” and “Give Bush the Pink Slip,” which a lot of the delegates are wearing. We are finding a lot of our delegates here– we have common ground on the issues. They want to talk about the war, as well.

AMY GOODMAN: And this is what they told you to put away?

CHARLES UNDERWOOD: Yeah, It’s just that we are off message when we talk about peace. It's that simple.

AMY GOODMAN: As Charles Underwood and Donna Kassett spoke, Charles Underwood, the Kucinich delegate, held up a pink kerchief that said “Give Bush the Pink Slip” He said they were told to put the kerchiefs away.

[Selwynn]

116. So far this allegation is bullshit - we've SEEN THE SIGNS ON THE FLOOR

[Anwen]

121. Of course not.

I'm surprised that anyone here would vote yes.

[blm]

129. Horse manure. Kucinich and Kerry are closer than you think. Why pretend

they are shutting Dennis out? Dennis would be the first to complain if he and his people were wrongly being shut down.

Whose agenda is being promoted by stirring up rifts on the left?

[TexasSissy]

132. Sounds like they're preventing exhibitions of views opposed to theplatform

NOT views expressed by just far lefters. There's a difference. Wanting no written signs opposing the platform that they are there to support makes sense, in a way. To wave signs that express views that are diametrically opposed to the party platform is "protesting," which is not allowed inside the convention. The convention meeting is for those who are supporting the platform.

[Uzybone]

133. More DU madness

this is almost as bad as the Kerry intern smear. Some DUers will and spout anything as long as it makes Democrats look bad.

[tomorrowsashes]

138. A personal story

In 2000, I attended an Al Gore rally with my father. Outside of the rally, there were Nader supporters handing out pamphlets. My dad took one, and when he tried to get into the convention, he had it confiscated. This is one of the reasons my dad voted for Ralph Nader in 2000, and he is thinking of doing it again. If the Democratic Party is willing to put unity above free expression, even of allegations, then it has simply become a tool of the powerful to control dissent. This is not something I want to be part of.

I voted NO. I don't know if it happened, but don't doubt it, and even if it didn't, then it still wouldn't be okay if it did.

[Sugarbleus]

139. NO..but it depends on what we are talking about here...

There should NOT be any squelching of certain so-called democratic values/beliefs even if they are far left JUST SO LONG as the people displaying their banners or whatever DO NOT disrupt the proceedings as laid out. To wear a tee shirt or scarf or pin or hat or whatever quietly and politely should NOT be a banned activity.

Clinton said "We are all in this together"............


The bit about confiscating Nader material at the door seems quite appropriate, for heaven's sake! That's like passing out Bush or Perot or Buchannan pamphlets at the Dem convention. They don't want their opposition to have propoganda inside THEIR event..geez get a clue.

Peace~~

[Selwynn]

142. Hey look, its hours later and this is still total unfounded bullshit.

[rman]

148. The Cage isn't bullshit

It's obvious that the main body of the Democratic Party does not want to hear dissenting voices. Protests are part of the democratic process and putting protests out of sight/out of mind, isn't very democratic.

[emulatorloo]

144. I watched MSNBC coverage Tues nite and there were TONS of Pink Slips

in every floor interview I saw people happily waving peace scarves/pink slips.

[rman]

149. ..and huge signs saying "bring the troops home"...

or were there?

[derby378]

151. Bottom line...

We're supposed to be the uniters, not the dividers. Look how badly the Rethugs have divided America. Now is not the time for the DNC/DLC to get coy about free speech.