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Gothmog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:04 AM
Original message
DU this MSNBC Poll on Sandy Berger
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3096434/

Do you think that Sandy Berger is telling the truth. Right now the poll is close.

I personally find the attacks on Sandy Berger to be disgusting and the leak of the investigation was obviously designed to deflect attention from the 9/11 Commission report.
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tandot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:05 AM
Response to Original message
1. done. 51% yes, 49% no, 3635 responses
Edited on Wed Jul-21-04 09:38 AM by tandot
:kick:

edit to correct typo (39% no)
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StClone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Oppsy It's 49% NO: we need more votes
!
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Bronco69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
3. Done
Do you think Sandy Berger is telling the truth? * 3955 responses


Yes
51%

No
49%
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qazplm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
4. disgusting?
Hey sorry but the guy was wrong.

We can't start coddling our own just because they are being attacked by the right. He took sensitive documents. There is no excuse for that and if true, he should be convicted and punished for it.

Yeah, the timing sucks, although then again, wouldnt the timing have been better in October when he has been on Kerry's staff much longer and is about to become his NSA???

Some speculate that a dem was the one who leaked this as damage control.

You know they wouldnt be able to use this if he hadnt DONE IT!
Instead of railing against the Republicans we need to be pi**ed at Berger for being an idiot.
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displacedtexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Where do you get your talking points?
Coddling?

"Some speculate?"
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qazplm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #6
24. from my head
where do you get yours?

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Steve Beatty Donating Member (13 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. well said
Well said and I agree 100%.

Party lines do not denote what is legally right and what is wrong.

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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #4
11. Well, actually this happens all the time and the feeling is they
likely won't press charges (experts I heard quoted on TV, radio). They may now due to the "Stewart effect", but it is not normally a really big deal. It's not like he didn't have legal access to these or that they are such a big deal really. Now, he was kind of bone-headed about it - not sure what he was trying to accomplish?
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HootieMcBoob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #4
12. We are pissed at Berger
But personally, I'm more pissed at the media for making such a big issue out of this. It's illustrative of the right wing echo chamber. There have been dozens of things that have been much worse that they haven't touched. Things that have a real impact on our national security or the everyday lives of Americans. The reason they haven't touched them is because the apparatus isn't in place for Democrats or progressives in general to make them the story of the day. Anything the right wing machine wishes to dominate the days headlines does because they have set the system up to their advantage. We have only very recently even begun to pick up on this.
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #4
17. The Justice dept.
has been looking into this for 10 months. No charges have been filed. The items in question concerned a memo that Berger wrote that he was ostensibly reviewing for upcoming 9/11 commission inquiry. It concerned the Millenium, a successful project which deterred a terrorist plot. The items were not copies, not original documents.
They were not placed in his socks and he submitted to a cursory and common "search" by personnel in this department.

Mr. Berger voluntarily resigned his post with the Kerry campaign as reported by his legal counsel. (he retained an attorney before these allegations were made public)

If you're going to self appoint yourself as judge and jury, at least get your facts straight.
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qazplm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #17
23. copies are STILL
sensitive! Get YOUR facts straight before you call someone else out.

No one said the man should be executed, but he SHOULD be punished IMO.
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #23
31. He isn't guilty
despite 10 months of investigation, not even an indictment. And by the way, you can MAKE copies in the same area. If he is shown to have broken the law--fine--sentence and so on. But you have the cart before the horse, the FBI has not indicted him for anything.

And for the record, I'm not calling you anything.
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tandot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #4
22. "innocent until proven guilty"
Berger has been under investigation since LAST year and no charges have been filed so far.

If they decide to charge him and he gets convicted, I agree that he should get punished.



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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #22
36. FYI: "Dr. Gergen's SANDY BERGER VACCINE" - a perspective.
These are Made-in-HEAVEN Talking Points from a guy who worked with/for FOUR presidents, THREE OF THEM republi-CONS. WELL worth repeating, and using as material for LTTEs, andti-Berger emails, and more:

I saw David Gergen on “Newsnight” on CNN (Tuesday, July 20th, 2004) with Aaron Brown. I found myself wondering how soon the republi-CONS are going to put a hit out on David Gergen. Gotta be some dirt in there that they can use to discredit him with. He's their worst enemy in this. He OBVIOUSLY did NOT get their memo. He said all the wrong things (at least from their point of view). ALL the wrong things:

About the timing which he bald-facedly said could be regarded as suspicious, and for the reason he also specified - to draw fire away from Thursday's expected release of the 9/11 Commission's report.

About the character of Sandy Berger - unimpeachable, says he knows him well, respects the heck out of him, AND THEN proceeded to spell out in some detail how Sandy Berger worked almost literally around the clock during what we now know as the run-up to the Millennium terrorist threats, and Gergen REPEATEDLY stated that Berger "STOPPED THE ATTACKS." He must have repeated that maybe three or four times.

And to add insult to injury, he flat-out stated that "these people should be THANKING Sandy Berger for all his hard work because (repeating yet again) HE STOPPED THE ATTACKS.

FURTHERMORE, Gergen referred back to ALL the republi-CON puffing, which is, I think, the phrase he used, or maybe even "unnecessary puffing" by those who had just been shown in videotaped clips, fulminating about how awful this was and how it was such a serious breach of national security - you could see all the usual suspects, Dennis Hastert coming to the mike with the coterie of gop henchmen - tom delay, and others, all really indignant and frowny-looking, and then the senators - including rick santorum and - our dear darling Georgia CHICKENHAWK saxby "I'm more patriotic having skirted Vietnam than Max Cleland who lost three limbs in the war there" chambliss. And then, here's David Gergen, referring back to those same people he says were hyperventilating about it (my phrase) when he said a) a second time that they should be THANKING Sandy Berger because he - repeat yet again - STOPPED THE MILLENNIUM ATTACK.

He specifically described all the uproar as just that, uproar, and much ado about nothing. He said they were going way overboard and that there's "a lot less here than meets the eye." Those were, in fact, his closing comments, and those, too, were a repeat from earlier in the interview.

He not only vouched vigorously for Sandy Berger's character, but he gave himself a little bit of a ribbing when he pointed out that this was certainly sloppy, and mentioned that he himself ought to know because he had that problem, being sloppy. He said he could understand how you have papers all over the desk and at the end you scoop 'em all up and put 'em away in your folder and then - Gergen said - he probably LOST a couple of 'em. He pointed out again that he thought this was just sloppy.

He further said that Berger was there, to begin with, because as part of what was then his anticipated testimony before the 9/11 Commission, that the commission asked him to go back and thoroughly review his notes of the Millennium threat and what was done - (to do what, class?) STOP THE ATTACK. So he was carrying out instructions he'd been given from the panel.

AND - Gergen also pointed out, repeatedly, that these were copies. COPIES. C-O-P-I-E-S of stuff that is STILL in the National Archives, stuff that was ALL seen by the 9/11 Commission, and ALL made available, and all still there, now. Gergen said there was NEVER anything out of any of this that was kept back from, or hidden from, or disallowed to the 9/11 Commission, and that they'd seen everything there. This, he said, and the missing papers, were copies of stuff that the commission absolutely did get to see. So basically no damage done - GERGEN SAID.

As for Aaron Brown, he introduced Gergen as somebody who ought to know, having advised four presidents, Nixon, Reagan, bush 1 and Clinton. The CLEAR inference here was that this, like with Richard Clarke, presents a picture of someone who is very non-partisan, having worked for both camps, and presidents of both parties.

So, all in all, I thought it was rather even-handed, even excellent for Sandy Berger. David Gergen was really definite about these things. No hemming and hawing and parsing his words and grasping about, verbally, for "a way to put this" that would shade it with other meanings in any way. He was very straightforward, and the republi-CONS probably hate his guts this evening. Probably revoked his VIP pass to their convention next month. EVERYTHING David Gergen said HURT their case. EVERYTHING. If Sandy Berger's attorney was at trial about this, he'd have David Gergen as his star witness.



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displacedtexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
5. 51-49 now.
The sock meme has made the rounds of the True Believers.
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Shopaholic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. 52% Yes right now
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Aunt Anti-bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:13 AM
Response to Original message
8. Done.
Yes
52%

No
48%
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Laf.La.Dem. Donating Member (924 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
10. Done
Yes - 52% Thanks
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ezee Donating Member (615 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:19 AM
Response to Original message
13. DONE! 52%YES,48%NO. N/T
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thecrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
14. kick
:kick:
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
15. Were these documents COPIES?
I have heard ALL the news guys say Berger took COPIES of documents and one is still missing. I realize he admits to doing wrong, and I think he should be punished in a reasonable way, but I guess I don't understand the severity of this action if the documents he took were copies of originals. If the original still exists, what has really been compromised?
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Nashyra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Go vote
50/50
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. Nothing, this all bullshit
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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. yes--and the screaming Freepundits have been acting like
irreplaceable items are missing. Not true.
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Blue Wally Donating Member (974 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #15
26. A copy of a classified document
retains the same classification as the original. "Compromized" means that we do not know if the information which was contained in the document is still "safe" or is in the hands of an unfriendly power.
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. I haven't heard anne say the documents might be in the hands
of an unfriendly power. All the reports have been insinuating that a document is MISSING, or that something was hidden from the 9/11 Commission.

If the term "copy" is true, neither of those statements can be true!

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Blue Wally Donating Member (974 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. Documents
Classified documents whether original or copies which go "missing" arepresumed to be "compromised" unless an investigation can establish that the document was in proper custody throughout the time it was missing (i.e. it was in the unbroken custody of a person with proper clearance or it fell behind the drawer of the safe).
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:38 AM
Response to Original message
20. It's still hovering at 49/51 percent.
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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
21. Uh-Oh - yes=49% no=51% 6336 responses
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Maestro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
25. Done
eom
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theHandpuppet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
27. Thanks for the heads up
Done, but those voting against Berger are still leading.
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obnoxiousdrunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
28. done
52% no 48% yes.
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kerrywins Donating Member (864 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
32. done
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donhakman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. 966
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Viking12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 03:22 PM
Response to Original message
34. The poll I see is not about Berger....DU it anyway
Growing U.S. death toll in Iraq: Is it worth the cost?

Yes 23%
No 77%

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LittleApple81 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 03:22 PM
Response to Original message
35. It is gone. Now they have another referring to the cost for the war.n/t
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apnu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. which, BTW, is 77% no out of 22770 responders.
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