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Australia is scared...but not New Zealand?

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dudeness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:38 PM
Original message
Australia is scared...but not New Zealand?
in one of the great propaganda coups of the past 90 years ( since the first world war) the corporate machinery of the coalition of the willing has managed to sell to the general populace the message of FEAR..in my region of the world (australia) we are shit scared of terrorism..islam and are hiding behind the great protector(USA) but at what price?..we are inexplicably linked to imperialism..have effectively handed over our economy and autonomy to the USA through a free trade agreement..have become just another base for the US military..and pricks like Armitage interfere directly in our domestic politics..New Zealand (a few hours flying time away) on the other hand is not SCARED..why?..hard to explain..perhaps they value their independence..stand for what they believe in..they have in the past banned nuclear ships from docking on their shores..recently jailed two Israeli spies..have disbanded their air force..are they insane or perhaps just not frightened?
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komplex Donating Member (135 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:46 PM
Response to Original message
1. Welll...

Actually, NZ disbanding their Air Force has been used in many Risk Management Case studies.

According to what I've heard, NZ asked a simple question, "Who would the Air Force protect us from?" Which boils down to "Who has Airplanes that can fly all the way to NZ? And the Answer is Australia, UK and USA.

NZ, looked at the answer and realized that an Air Force was a waste of money. Nobody who can, would actually want to attack them.

NZ are pretty bright when they step away from the sheep :)
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dudeness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. perhaps indonesia..
the brits have been selling high tech planes to them for eons..they are as close to NZ as Australia..and are a hotbed of Islamic terrorism..
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Johnyawl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. No...
...the Indonesian Airforce is equiped with American F-16s and Russian SU-27s (in several variations). Neither airplane has the range to get to NZ(and back) without refueling, and the Indonesian Airforce doesn't have much refueling capability. Certainly not enough to be a threat.

...they are as close to NZ as Australia You need to take a close look at an atlas. Australia lies across the Tasman Sea from NZ, roughly 1200 miles. Indonesia would have to fly over the entire continent of Australia and the Tasman Sea to get to NZ. That's roughly 3000 miles. And that's if they had permission from Australia to fly over their territory to attack NZ. Without that permission the flight would be in the neighborhood of 4000 miles.

The only country in the world without an aircraft carrier that has the capability of launching air strikes on NZ is Australia. And who has Aircraft Carriers? There are only two nations with carrier fleets large enough to overwhelm a small but sophisticated air defense system; Britain & the US.

I think the Kiwis made a pretty cost effective move.

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dudeness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. thanks for the analysis john
i wasn;t trying to make a definative argument with the inclusion of indonesia into my case..but the basic premise still stands..NZers are not as afraid as the rest of the western world..btw i have been to NZ 6 times and have fair idea were she is..cheers..
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Stone_Spirits Donating Member (586 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
2. no NZ seems quite sane
anyone aligning with Bush's US right now is insane.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
3. Yeah, thanks for laying that out, dudeness.
My grandkids are half Aussie but if I had my choice ..I want to go to New Zealand and have for a long time.

Over the Fourth of July ..my son asked me if I wanted to take a trip to New Zealand one day and I said Yes! It's my daughter who is married to the Australian lad.

What do you think are the chances of Mark Latham winning?
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dudeness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Hi zidzi..
looking better all the time..howard is old and weary..latham is a lot sharper than people gave him credit for..an astute politcal operator..bringing peter garrett into the party (google the band midnight oil for more on him) and beazley back onto the front bench may just do the trick..plus the debacle that is Iraq is gaining traction..cheers..
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. I've already heard about Peter Garrett now that you
mention him..on du. That's how I know.

And I just read F9/11 is doing gangbusters in Australia and it hasn't been released yet..how ever that happens!

This looks good from Peter Garrett's biography page..

"Peter Garrett AM BA (ANU) LLB (UNSW) D Litt (UNSW) D Univ (GRIFF)
President Australian Conservation Foundation, activist, former member Australian group Midnight Oil

Peter Garrett is widely known as a passionate advocate and essayist on a range of contemporary Australian and global issues.
He was vocalist, co-lyricist, and dynamic frontman for Midnight Oil for 26 groundbreaking years. During that time the band was known for their consistently cathartic, often extraordinary, live performances such as those at the Capitol Theatre in 1982, the six night stand at the Sydney Entertainment Centre in 1984, and the Goat Island gig for JJJ in 1985. 1990's world tour saw the band continue its history of protest and benefit shows, notably at Jabiluka in the Northern Territory's Kakadu National Park, Sao Paulo Brazil, Clayquot in Canada, and the anti Exxon Valdez performance on a truck top in the streets of New York. Of Midnight Oil's 16 albums "10-1", "Diesel and Dust", Blue Sky Mining", and "Redneck Wonderland" were amongst the most provocative and successful, whilst songs like "Beds are Burning", "Power and Passion", and "US Forces" have become FM radio standards.




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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. I pretty dissapointed in Garrett myself
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 09:34 PM by Djinn
I guess he feels being a member of the (hopefully soon) government is more effective than being a Green even though his politics would better suit them - personally I think with the Greens most likely to hold the balance of power in the next government he's wrong, he's already had to wind back criticism of Pine Gap and he'll have to either do the same re logging of old growth forest in Tasmania or at the very least keep schtum.

I'm not too sure of putting my hopes in the ALP winning the next election - was too let down by the public falling for the "illegal immigrants" bullshit last time - don't want to be dissapointed again, and either way economically Latham isn't that left - but then again a man who publically described Bush as the "most dangerous
and incompetent American president in living memory" and the Government as a "congoline of suckholes" can't be all bad :evilgrin:

New Zealand looks better every day - and with the way we're heading the sheep jokes will soon have to be about us.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Exactly!
"either way economically Latham isn't that left - but then again a man who publically described Bush as the "most dangerous
and incompetent American president in living memory" and the Government as a "congoline of suckholes" can't be all bad"


And Mark Latham did say if he won he would have the troops back home by Christmas.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. And why did those Australians who you have in your
sig line end up in Guantanamo?

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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Well I guess that depends whose story you beleive
far as I know they could both be second in command to Osama (though I don't think even the Bushies claim that) or Habib could have been there (Pakistan not Afghanistan) looking for schools and Hicks could have been just a lost young man looking for adventure and a sense of purpose after leaving the Australian army - he ended up in Afghanistan (PRE 9/11 when it was apparebtly OK for the Bush administration to have dealings with the Taliban) and fought against the Northern Alliance in Agfhanistan and with Muslims in Kashmir. Whatever they did they shouldn't have been locked away for years without trial, contact with their families and for most of the time without access to their lawyers.

Habib's case for me is particularly troubling as he was sent to Egypt (despite being an Australian citizen) there is no other reason for US forces to send him to Egypt (called rendition) than to have him tortured.

My government did NOTHING about this and has had no problems with this happening to an Australian citizen - next time I travel overseas it will definetly be on my UK passport as atleast the Brits have secured the release of some of their citizens and have always protested them being kept in Gitmo.

There was a good Dateline (SBS Australia) program on Mamdouh's situation a month or so ago - the transcript is here if you're interested http://www.sbs.com.au/dateline/index.php3?daysum=2004-0...
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