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The Iran thing is worse than I first thought - dividing the left.

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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:54 PM
Original message
The Iran thing is worse than I first thought - dividing the left.
Think about this; he can push for war in Iran, maybe another resolution, and if the Democrats don't go along with it, he can say they don't care about national security.

If they do go along with it, portion of the left secedes and he still wins.

He doesn't even have to fight an actual war after November. It can all be just like "well, looks like we found out everything's alright."

This is so fucked up.
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bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
1. This time show us the proof. both sides.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Then he accuses us of being lax.
You and I might want the proof, but I'm not sure how many people out there care. I'm pretty sure more of them do than last time, but maybe not.

Either way he wins.
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The Zanti Regent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:57 PM
Response to Original message
2. With WHAT are we going into Iran?
Aren't we overextended still?????????
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. It doesn't matter.
All he has to do is make it look like he's going to go to war.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
4. he can do this any time he pleases.
*That* is why the party *leadership* has to stand up to the bullshit - otherwise, we continue to dance to the GOP tune.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
18. nothing in response?
Limited to spoofing Nader?
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. I already dealt with that.
That's the first plank - he can say we're lax about an imminent threat, etc. I responded to someone else with it. You and I will examine the evidence but he can spread the FUD to the rest of the people.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. then be prepared
to have this happen over and over and over and over again.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. I know; this is fucked up.
That's why I said this is so fucked up.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. seems like we have a choice, no?
Accept that it's fucked up or do something about it.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. Yeah, that's why I'm coming up with this plan.
This discussion is helping me develop it.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. Actually, now that I think about it, I completely disagree with you.
We should call his bluff. We should pass any war resolution he puts in front of us. Any war he wants to start now, won't begin until maybe February. And if Kerry gets in, it can be stopped if it turns out to be bullshit.

But see, I can think deviously like that and know we'll come out ahead. But the anti-war contingent probably won't see this or won't feel comfortable doing this and secede, and keep Bush* in power. That's why I say this is so fucked up.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. superlative idea
We should pass any war resolution he puts in front of us. Any war he wants to start now, won't begin until maybe February. And if Kerry gets in, it can be stopped if it turns out to be bullshit.

And if Kerry doesn't win? Or Bush starts said authorized war(s) in December? Or someone forgets to let North Korea in on the grand electoral strategy?

Yup. Sharp idea.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. It's the best we can do.
Matter of fact, the fact that we have a depleted military gives me more confidence that the "call his bluff" strategy might be the best thing we can do. He can't start the war at all, much less before the next presidential term!

But if Kerry doesn't win, Kerry doesn't win and Bush* does what he wants. And if the Democrats don't vote for the war resolution, he may be able to get them replaced with a Congress that will pass the resolution.

This reminds me of how there are cougars up in northern Michigan, and they tell you if you run into one, don't play dead or run - you have to fight the cougar. It's not a foolproof strategy, but what else are you gonna do?

And I'm not simply going after the anti-war contingent - you can see that my strategy is aimed at preventing another war. Just because it risks starting another one, doesn't mean that it isn't still the plan least likely to do so.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. ...maybe.
I don't wanna say I know for sure. :)
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. the best we can do
is to give the worst president in US history a blank check to make war where and when he chooses?

Friend, even I give the party more backbone than that.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. No no no no no no no no!
You're thinking of the best that we can do if we were in a contest for being able to walk around saying we have backbone. I'm saying this is the best we can do for actually preventing a possibly unnecessary war (or maybe it isn't unnecessary - either way it's better to have Bush* out for domestic purposes).
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. no, actually.
I was thinking of the best we can do for the nation and the world.

I'm saying this is the best we can do for actually preventing a possibly unnecessary war

Brinksmanship. Great idea when it works. It doesn't often.

(or maybe it isn't unnecessary - either way it's better to have Bush* out for domestic purposes).

Should we just shut up and get behind the next war? Better for the electoral outcome, and hell, it might even be a good idea in someone's mind...
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. Neither you nor I know what's going on there.
And no, I'm not just saying we should get behind it. We should set up a mechanism like we did last time, where if they want to declare war, they actually have to find the shit first. Now see that I could see as being real supported by people this time. People are upset about there being no weapons of mass destruction, but we could make them remember that we were in the process of trying to find them when Bush* was saying we already knew where they were, so they have to do it this time.

As far as the brinksmanship...yes I understand that my strategy sounds like some Dr. Strangelove stuff. I wish it didn't have to come to this (that's why I say this is so fucked up). Of course I'm not any sort of strategist or whatever; I'm just trying to illustrate a scenario that might be counterintuitive, but might still be the most likely to prevent a war.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. no, I suppose we don't.
Given the poor state of the media, we're not likely to. Still, we are citizens of a nation nominally committed to the idea that the people who most directly represent us control the power to declare war. If we, through them, abdicate that power on the basis of the fact that we don't know everything, then we share equally in the blame for what happens.

Give a Republican an excuse to go to war in an election year and he'll take it. Every time, in a heartbeat.
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buycitgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:59 PM
Response to Original message
5. I don't see how this helps them at all, from ANY perspective
first, they screwed up AGAIN in the intel vein

second, even if invasion is justified, we CAN'T. we don't have the resources

third, who here has the will, even RW stalwarts. this war has been enormously divisive. polls show that a significant majority think the war was a bad idea, AND that the chimp misled us

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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:59 PM
Response to Original message
6. Not quite.
This "intelligence" on Iran, such as it is, is showing that Bush invaded the wrong country, that he's an incompetent boob and that he needs to be packed the hell off to Texas before he gets us into another damn quagmire.

I don't think Congress is going to give the idiot another blank check to invade another country. He's shot his wad on that account, and his next WAH is gonna have to be against the prairie dogs on his "ranch."
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ClintonTyree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. They've glossed over that..................
by blaming "bad intelligence". The ignorant cowboy was given bad intelligence, the "Liberal Media" has been beating this meme to death lately. It wasn't Dumbya's fault, nothing is EVER Dumbya's fault. He's always an innocent bystander.
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dudeness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:01 PM
Response to Original message
8. Internationally speaking..
Bush has only united the "left" any aggressive moves on Iran..will have to be unilateral..no other of the western democracies could take another iraq debacle..
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KC21304 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:01 PM
Response to Original message
9. We are not going to go to war with Iran. As a matter of fact we are
going to get downright chummy with Iran.
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Moonbeam_Starlight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
10. Why would he go to Congress at all?
He got a blank check with Iraq....no need to go to Congress again.

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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. To try to remove Democratic members of Congress via the election.
And to make Kerry look bad by association.
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #10
22. What the hell are you talking about?
IWR satisfied the War Powers Act for the purpose of invading Iraq.

How do you get that it authorized action in Iran?
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DieboldMustDie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #22
36. Just use a little White Out and a pen to change the "q" to an "n"...
and we're ready to go. :crazy:
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:04 PM
Response to Original message
12. You may be right...
All boosh has to do is go through the motions. The last time, on the IWR, he had limited sucess dividing the Left. He sure as hell will use the same strategy again... besides, what else can he run on?

The whole key is to divide us, let's not make it easy for him.

Resist much, obey little.
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
14. Yeah, it is, and...
while I can't see them actually starting to act rationally now, war with Iran is so far out of it that I really can't see it happening.

Isn't the public starting to get sick of Iraq? Would it accept talk of another war without saying something?

Wouldn't even Shrub's own party revolt at the suggestion?





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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
15. i have the answer. call his hand, put out the truth
what you say is so right on. and they consistantly re use what they have done in the past and this feels exactly like what he is doing, good stuff here nad pat you for saying out loud, so what do you do. this one is easy.............

say it out loud. this is what dissolves all these lies and manipulations of the bushco machine and allows them to not work.

kerry says loud and clear, not going to vote on this in oct before the election like you did in 2002. we will vote on it with thought in dec, letting the election not being a deciding factor in our young military peoples lives and our money that is for the people

you cannot use this as an october surprise as you did in 2002, that all recognize,

we vote in middle november, rationally,.....waht say you, we the people

saying it out loud, like finding bin laden for oct surprise will now be ineffective, further i believe will hurt bush, confirming peoples feel he is all about winning, screw the people, or the soldiers, or those that died in 9/11
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #15
40. I like it, that's exactly what Kerry needs to do.
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 08:55 PM by Old and In the Way
Hope you are one of the political consultants in his kitchen, seabeyond!

I have not trusted the Republicans since the Anthrax attack (whatever happened with that investigation?). Make no mistake, that was an attack on the Democrats. When IWR came up, we were 1 year removed from 9/11 and still in the dark about the root cause (no further along today, either). Were the Republicans hoping for a solid Democraic anti-war vote on Iraq? I think so. And I think another "event" here would have given Bush his causus belli to invade Iraq and the his dictatorship....and nuetralized the Democrats as an opposition for forseeable future.

This time, it won't work. Bush failed in Iraq (how they could think we could "win", I have no idea), and he has squandered his popular support. If another attack occurs here, he best resign immediately.

What I find extremely odd is using the flimsy "evidence" that terrorists slipped into Iran on their way to the US....we also let them into our country; so why should Iran be held to a different standard?

Earlier this week, we find Bush forgiving the Pakistani's $500MM in foreign debt. But we know the ISI (Pakistani CIA) was directly involved with the 9/11 terrorists and funneled money to them. And they are building warheads and selling them to North Korea. So just where is the consistancy in our WOT? And what about the real source of fundie terror....the House of Saud? There is no coherent application of the Bush Doctrine....why is that a surprise?

Bush cannot make a compelling case to start a war in Iran. And Kerry should call me on it. Let's make that a referendum issue on the election.






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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
16. A war in Iran will = less stability which will = more terrorism
If hopping bombs from Afghanistan to Iraq to Iran within 4 years can divide the left, then there's not much holding us together in the first place.

His fun little war with Iraq turned up no threat against the US and no WMD. Soldiers and civilians lost their lives and terrorism is on the rise. All the Democrats in Congress have to say if Bush comes begging for an Iranian War Resolution is that they've learned from their mistakes and this time, for the sake of our soldiers and national security, we will have a real discussion about it.

One big HUGE question they better ask is where do they plan on getting the soldiers from? We're over extended enough as it is so how could they possibly plan yet another war without the draft? If that doesn't wake up the general public, then we're all doomed anyway.
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LittleApple81 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. IRAN IS NO WIMP. They have a trained army. AND WE WILL ALIENATE
the young people of Iran who are the ones fighting for more freedoms in Iran.

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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. And there are definately a lot of young people in Iran:
according to the CIA factbook, the median age for men is 23.3 and for women its 23.7 years.
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Pobeka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
17. Let's see here, Bush et. al. say they have no good intelligence agencies?
And now they are going to say they have good intelligence on Iran.

. Barrel .
. Fish .
. Shoot .
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candy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
26. Calm down!
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
29. That has been the plan, that is why many of us are so mad about Iraq.
Iraq was NOT ok, and it has opened the doors wide for more US imperialism. The neocons actually put in writing that Iraq was only an immediate justification, that we were needing a gateway to the middle east so to speak.

When our Democrats voted for the war, many were already saying that Syria or Iran were next.

That is why I will not justify this war. It was wrong then, and it is still wrong, and it opened wide the door.

We should have stood our ground against them then, not given in so easily. It is really too late now.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
30. All you have to do is tell them they are exposing the country to danger
"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."

-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

they have been following this script from 12-12-00

peace
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dudeness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #30
38. nailed it bpilgrim
peace..
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